GENIUS FORUMS

Foolishness. No doubt. It only takes a very mediocre mind to assert all is subjective and then attempt to destroy critical thought itself with bad arguments and stupidity.

edit: scratch that. I'm gonna be serious here

I believe that the edge of critical though can be turned on *anything*, even objectivity. A critical thinker isn't interested in the truth, s/he just wants to destroy lies. Lies are tangible, but the truth is ineffable.

If you look carefully, I didn't *assert* anything (but I didn't need to, to trigger your defense mechanisms.) I remarked that it was telling that our instinctive mind doesn't differentiate between fiction and reality, which might mean the distinction is arbitrary, and perhaps better left dispensed with. I honestly don't care about figuring out what is real, because reality is not mine to own. I don't generally prescribe to totalitarian worldviews, mainly because they're rigid, unyielding, and lack sophistication, not to mention fundamentally hostile to the mind we're born with.

But it doesn't matter what I say so long as you feel comfy dismissing me as another "post-modern" knuckle-head without actually meeting me in the field of battle, like a real fucking samurai!

The post modern understanding that our language is too imprecise and relative in meaning to ever absolutely describe Reality, has been caused by the failure of Physicists and Philosophers (over many centuries) to discover / correctly describe Reality.

Nothing seems of more importance, towards erecting a firm system of sound and real knowledge than to lay the beginning in a distinct explication of what is meant by thing, reality, existence: for in vain shall we dispute concerning the real existence of things, or pretend to any knowledge thereof, so long as we have not fixed the meaning of those words. (George Berkeley)

Postmodern belief is that a correct description of Reality has not been found at this point in time.

Any who lay claim to 'knowing Reality' qualify as 'silly'...

Uncertainty, in the presence of vivid hopes and fears, is painful, but must be endured if we wish to live without the support of comforting fairy tales. (Russell)

frank

frank, neither Berkeley nor Russell were postmodernists. Those quotations are completely inappropriate examples of postmodern belief. To assume otherwise is to completely miss the context of those statements.

Postmodernism is fast becoming outdated. Even the academics are abandoning it. Those of you who promote it on this forum are at least 15 years behind the times.

Indeed, it really is difficult to think of a more foolish philosophy, as evidenced by frank's error-ridden post above. The human race will be one day be extremely embarrassed that it once took it seriously. I know I would be.

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Whatever your reservations are about any philosophical position or philosopher....

The fact is philosophers and scientists...to this point in time...have NOT correctly described nor discovered 'Reality'....

To claim to 'know Truth or Reality' is indeed the Act of an Idiot...

The honest position is to say 'I don't know' AND I speculate.

In that way there's nothing to 'fight' about....

What you have got to say is your Story...your Version...

And it's 'empty and meaningless' as it stands.

frank

frank wrote:

The fact is philosophers and scientists...to this point in time...have NOT correctly described nor discovered 'Reality'....

How could you possibly know that?

The human race has known Reality for thousands of years.

To claim to 'know Truth or Reality' is indeed the Act of an Idiot...

The honest position is to say 'I don't know' AND I speculate.

That's your script, frank. May you find happiness in it.

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Quit muckin' about David.

Admit you don't know 'Ultimate Reality'.

frank

don't have much time,gonna keep it to this:

In error only is their life,and knowledge must be death - Schiller

frank wrote:

Quit muckin' about David.

Admit you don't know 'Ultimate Reality'.

Why? So you can squeeze me into your narrow scripted view of life?

Sorry to disappoint you, but I have a full and complete understanding of Ultimate Reality.

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david:

Sorry to disappoint you, but I have a full and complete understanding of Ultimate Reality.

OK, that's exciting.

Now what is it?

frank

I talk about it everyday.

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From Wisdom of the Infinite...

When it comes to comprehending Reality, there is ultimately nothing to affirm or deny. To affirm something is to fall into the delusion that a particular appearance is ultimate reality; to deny a particular appearance is to fall into the delusion that Reality has a particular form. Thus, part of the process of becoming enlightened is learning how to put an end to this mentality of affirmation and denial, which means recognizing and accepting that Reality is essentially ungraspable. Reality is simply what it is in any given moment. It cannot be captured or got hold of in any way. The moment you try to do that, you lose it. All that you will be left with is a useless frozen image, a kind of mental corpse, completely oblivious to the fact that Reality has since moved on.

So now you've grasped what was previously ungraspable.

Neat.

frank

Aren't you able to grasp the point I was making in that paragraph?

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Wild Fox Zen wrote:edit: scratch that. I'm gonna be serious here

I believe that the edge of critical though can be turned on *anything*, even objectivity. A critical thinker isn't interested in the truth, s/he just wants to destroy lies. Lies are tangible, but the truth is ineffable.

But how can you identify a lie to destroy it, if you don't have some concept of truth? You're fundamentally irrational.

If you look carefully, I didn't *assert* anything (but I didn't need to, to trigger your defense mechanisms.) I remarked that it was telling that our instinctive mind doesn't differentiate between fiction and reality, which might mean the distinction is arbitrary, and perhaps better left dispensed with.

No. You were confused about real and realistic. That's not a remark.

I believe our minds do differentiate between fiction and reality, truth, and untruth.

I honestly don't care about figuring out what is real, because reality is not mine to own.

Yes. Rationality is selfishness. Typical postmodern crap.

I don't generally prescribe to totalitarian worldviews, mainly because they're rigid, unyielding, and lack sophistication, not to mention fundamentally hostile to the mind we're born with.

Logic is totalitarian. More postmodern crap.

But it doesn't matter what I say so long as you feel comfy dismissing me as another "post-modern" knuckle-head without actually meeting me in the field of battle, like a real fucking samurai!

Yes. I'm very comfortable indeed. Now get my slippers, underling.

I'm a not a regular samurai, I'm a super duper samurai.

david:

Aren't you able to grasp the point I was making in that paragraph?

Subject: on comprehending 'Reality.'

Predicate: 'is essentially ungraspable.'

It's enough.

The Heart dies a slow death,
shedding each hope like leaves,
until there are none,
No hopes,
Nothing remains,
It is not to want,
It is not to feel,

One dances,
One sings,
one entertains,
Whatever is wanted.

The rest is Shadows,
The rest is Secret.

It's 'empty and meaningless' THAT it's 'empty and meaningless'...

The Way...the Vibrant Vision.

frank

right, they really should be blaming the existentialists...

bert wrote:don't have much time,gonna keep it to this:

In error only is their life,and knowledge must be death - Schiller

existence is alogical to any 'logic' we know.
there are no facts,only interpretations. - Nietzsche
all facts are inconclusive.FOR A FACT IS A FICTION(CONTRIVED IDEA) OF AN OBVIOUS TRUTH.
we conceive from the whole,and trough particularity,detail destroys.
finding supportable evidence is not difficult, for everything has 'a point of connection' when it is immediate.
impacts alone have meaning.
a reality of illusion is by delusions falsefying each other.
The belief in external things is one of the necessary errors of mankind. - Nietzsche
our external world is a product of the fantasy. - Nietzsche
the world of the 'unreal is just as real and important as the real or actual. - Vaihinger
the real is an epiphenomenon of thought,a result of non-thought,a phenomenon of amnesia.the true real is within us and we project it. - Dali
the map is not the territory - robert anton wilson.
I know that I know nothing - Socrates


equity alone I shall accept.

the illusive phenomenal world is acceptable as the reality that builts connation(see topic empirical genius) and as opportunity for flesh.

so much to say...


my other posts almost alone confirm indefinately.

bert wrote:

bert wrote:don't have much time,gonna keep it to this:

In error only is their life,and knowledge must be death - Schiller

existence is alogical to any 'logic' we know.
there are no facts,only interpretations. - Nietzsche
all facts are inconclusive.FOR A FACT IS A FICTION(CONTRIVED IDEA) OF AN OBVIOUS TRUTH.
we conceive from the whole,and trough particularity,detail destroys.
finding supportable evidence is not difficult, for everything has 'a point of connection' when it is immediate.
impacts alone have meaning.
a reality of illusion is by delusions falsefying each other.
The belief in external things is one of the necessary errors of mankind. - Nietzsche
our external world is a product of the fantasy. - Nietzsche
the world of the 'unreal is just as real and important as the real or actual. - Vaihinger
the real is an epiphenomenon of thought,a result of non-thought,a phenomenon of amnesia.the true real is within us and we project it. - Dali
the map is not the territory - robert anton wilson.
I know that I know nothing - Socrates


equity alone I shall accept.

the illusive phenomenal world is acceptable as the reality that builts connation(see topic empirical genius) and as opportunity for flesh.

so much to say...


my other posts almost alone confirm indefinately.

Yes. History is replete with nihilist bullshit artists. Beats getting a real job.

millipodium wrote:Yes. History is replete with nihilist bullshit artists. Beats getting a real job.

Hah! I'm definitely with you there.

millipodium wrote:

bert wrote:

bert wrote:don't have much time,gonna keep it to this:

In error only is their life,and knowledge must be death - Schiller

existence is alogical to any 'logic' we know.
there are no facts,only interpretations. - Nietzsche
all facts are inconclusive.FOR A FACT IS A FICTION(CONTRIVED IDEA) OF AN OBVIOUS TRUTH.
we conceive from the whole,and trough particularity,detail destroys.
finding supportable evidence is not difficult, for everything has 'a point of connection' when it is immediate.
impacts alone have meaning.
a reality of illusion is by delusions falsefying each other.
The belief in external things is one of the necessary errors of mankind. - Nietzsche
our external world is a product of the fantasy. - Nietzsche
the world of the 'unreal is just as real and important as the real or actual. - Vaihinger
the real is an epiphenomenon of thought,a result of non-thought,a phenomenon of amnesia.the true real is within us and we project it. - Dali
the map is not the territory - robert anton wilson.
I know that I know nothing - Socrates


equity alone I shall accept.

the illusive phenomenal world is acceptable as the reality that builts connation(see topic empirical genius) and as opportunity for flesh.

so much to say...


my other posts almost alone confirm indefinately.

Yes. History is replete with nihilist bullshit artists. Beats getting a real job.

nihilist belief:(at its core(late Atheism))
material causality is everything.there is nothing which is not caused by something else.

but this is no-explanation.
the world seems accidental and without meaning.

there are no absolutes in terms of importance,meaning or truth that do not arise from the accidental structure of the body brain and its surroundings

...

hmmm...reply dismissed.you have to do better my dear

bert wrote:

millipodium wrote:

bert wrote:

bert wrote:don't have much time,gonna keep it to this:

In error only is their life,and knowledge must be death - Schiller

existence is alogical to any 'logic' we know.
there are no facts,only interpretations. - Nietzsche
all facts are inconclusive.FOR A FACT IS A FICTION(CONTRIVED IDEA) OF AN OBVIOUS TRUTH.
we conceive from the whole,and trough particularity,detail destroys.
finding supportable evidence is not difficult, for everything has 'a point of connection' when it is immediate.
impacts alone have meaning.
a reality of illusion is by delusions falsefying each other.
The belief in external things is one of the necessary errors of mankind. - Nietzsche
our external world is a product of the fantasy. - Nietzsche
the world of the 'unreal is just as real and important as the real or actual. - Vaihinger
the real is an epiphenomenon of thought,a result of non-thought,a phenomenon of amnesia.the true real is within us and we project it. - Dali
the map is not the territory - robert anton wilson.
I know that I know nothing - Socrates


equity alone I shall accept.

the illusive phenomenal world is acceptable as the reality that builts connation(see topic empirical genius) and as opportunity for flesh.

so much to say...


my other posts almost alone confirm indefinately.

Yes. History is replete with nihilist bullshit artists. Beats getting a real job.

nihilist belief:(at its core(late Atheism))
material causality is everything.there is nothing which is not caused by something else.

but this is no-explanation.
the world seems accidental and without meaning.

there are no absolutes in terms of importance,meaning or truth that do not arise from the accidental structure of the body brain and its surroundings

...

hmmm...reply dismissed.you have to do better my dear

Yet most people still believe their survival is important, if asked. And since our cognitions develop to help us survive in the world, nihilists which destroy the evolved structures of consciousness, destroy the very mechanisms of survival. The biggies know what they are doing. They hate humanity.

frank wrote:

DQ: Aren't you able to grasp the point I was making in that paragraph?

f: Subject: on comprehending 'Reality.'

Predicate: 'is essentially ungraspable.'

I'll take that as a no.

One cannot truly understand the ungraspable nature of Reality without intellectually understanding what Reality is. The two go hand in hand.

You're being duplicitious because you are trying to pretend that you know what is ultimately true and, at the same time, pretending to know nothing. That is why your posts always lack integrity.

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bert wrote:

existence is alogical to any 'logic' we know.
there are no facts,only interpretations. - Nietzsche
all facts are inconclusive.FOR A FACT IS A FICTION(CONTRIVED IDEA) OF AN OBVIOUS TRUTH.
we conceive from the whole,and trough particularity,detail destroys.
finding supportable evidence is not difficult, for everything has 'a point of connection' when it is immediate.
impacts alone have meaning.
a reality of illusion is by delusions falsefying each other.
The belief in external things is one of the necessary errors of mankind. - Nietzsche
our external world is a product of the fantasy. - Nietzsche
the world of the 'unreal is just as real and important as the real or actual. - Vaihinger
the real is an epiphenomenon of thought,a result of non-thought,a phenomenon of amnesia.the true real is within us and we project it. - Dali
the map is not the territory - robert anton wilson.
I know that I know nothing - Socrates


equity alone I shall accept.

the illusive phenomenal world is acceptable as the reality that builts connation(see topic empirical genius) and as opportunity for flesh.

so much to say...

Well, before you go any further, why don't you show us how it is possible for a person to reach certainty if it is the case that all facts are inconclusive. For some reason, you neglected to provide this demonstration the last time I asked.

It's all very well to quote others as though it were scripture, but the glarting contradiction at the heart of your philosophy still hasn't gone away.

all facts are inconclusive.FOR A FACT IS A FICTION(CONTRIVED IDEA) OF AN OBVIOUS TRUTH.

What is an example of this? Can you give us an example of an obvious truth, and the fictional fact which is derived from it?

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frank wrote:

DQ: One cannot truly understand the ungraspable nature of Reality without intellectually understanding what Reality is. The two go hand in hand.

F: There appears to be a metaphysical substratum there that we can gesture toward or point toward...

....but we can't really say anything definite about it can we?...

...we don't know it but we sort of know about it...

You are only revealing your own timidity here. I personally have no problems speaking specifically about it. For example, I can specifically say that Reality is formless. Or that is unborn. Or that it is neither objective nor subjective. Or that it is beyond existence. Or that it comprises the totality of all things. And so on.

All these undestandings of mine are very specific and definite. There isn't a hint of "sort of" about them. As usual, you are hiding away in vagueness so as to avoid taking responsibility for the truth and becoming an active participant in the spiritual process. That is what always shines through in your posts.

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