GENIUS FORUMS

I have an idea, Clyde. Why don't you figure out why people the world over are harming each other, and tackle the problem at the root? Surely it's not because they've never heard the phrase "do not harm anyone" or something similar. If it were that simple, I'm sure the problem would be solved by now.

Matt: I think "take responsibility" would be a better bumper sticker.

Elizabeth: Al-Queda thinks it follows that credo.

Well then Al-Queda can kiss my ass.

I've never been much of a bumper sticker person anyway. I think they're kind of dumb.

Matt;

I believe the root cause is ignorance, ignorance of our true nature and the nature of reality.

Of course, for enlightened geniuses “do no harm” is unnecessary. They have realized their true nature and the nature of reality, so they are naturally mindful and exercise wisdom and compassion. They are free of attachments and have no concern for self, fame or fortune. They manifest “do no harm” through their actions.

But not all of us are enlightened and the unenlightened are not likely to be enlightened overnight. So what are we to do? Well there are all kinds of practices that one can do to enlighten oneself and others. But while that is happening we are still acting in the world. So what are we to do?

We propose “do no harm.”

The message “do no harm” works on two levels: the practical level of action and the other level of awakening. On a practical level “do no harm” is the practice of “thoughtful consideration” (which requires the exercise of attention, understanding and empathy) applied to one’s actions in the world. This has the benefit of contributing to a more hospitable world. On the other level “do no harm” is the practice of contemplation on suffering and harm, causation and conditions, inter-relatedness and impermanence, and self and others, which leads to insight into our true nature and the nature of reality. This has the benefit of contributing to awakening.

I believe that practicing “do no harm” answers both questions: How are we to be enlightened? and What do we do in the mean time?

So, will you promote “do no harm”?

Do no harm < http://donoharm.us/ >,
clyde

clyde wrote: David introduced the term “wise harm”, so I’ll leave that for him to reply.

And I'm not sure why you then thought I was addressing you, or anyone in particular.

clyde wrote:There is no debate (with me) that suffering is part of life. I have explained that “do no harm” is not about perfection, but about minimizing suffering as not all suffering is necessary nor does all suffering lead to liberation.

Nothing is ever necessary, or everything is. And nothing really leads to liberation, or everything does.

clyde wrote:If you prefer: Be considerate.

Almost any phrase looks better than the one you picked, somehow. Do you ever wonder if your phrase might actually harm your cause more than it does good?

Clyde wrote:

I believe the root cause is ignorance, ignorance of our true nature and the nature of reality.

I believe that too.

Of course, for enlightened geniuses “do no harm” is unnecessary. They have realized their true nature and the nature of reality, so they are naturally mindful and exercise wisdom and compassion. They are free of attachments and have no concern for self, fame or fortune. They manifest “do no harm” through their actions.

Agreed.

But not all of us are enlightened and the unenlightened are not likely to be enlightened overnight. So what are we to do? Well there are all kinds of practices that one can do to enlighten oneself and others. But while that is happening we are still acting in the world. So what are we to do?

While what is happening? If you're working towards enlightenment, you're working towards enlightenment. It's not possible to do anything else at the same time. I suppose you could work on enlightenment part time and do something else the rest of the time, but that will never bring you to enlightenment. You have to be fully devoted to it in order to make it happen. Pursuing enlightenment isn't like getting a diploma or something that you can do in your spare time, it's a lifestyle.

We propose “do no harm.”

The message “do no harm” works on two levels: the practical level of action and the other level of awakening. On a practical level “do no harm” is the practice of “thoughtful consideration” (which requires the exercise of attention, understanding and empathy) applied to one’s actions in the world. This has the benefit of contributing to a more hospitable world. On the other level “do no harm” is the practice of contemplation on suffering and harm, causation and conditions, inter-relatedness and impermanence, and self and others, which leads to insight into our true nature and the nature of reality. This has the benefit of contributing to awakening.

This may be the effect on you and Chuck, but everybody is different. They have different thoughts, different backgrounds, and different responses to thoughts.

I believe that practicing “do no harm” answers both questions: How are we to be enlightened? and What do we do in the mean time?

I don't think that you understand what you're asking, frankly. The second question makes absolutely no sense.

Diebert;

You asked,

Do you ever wonder if your phrase might actually harm your cause more than it does good?

I don’t think you have been adversely effected. Have you? Should I be concerned that you may be adversely effected?

Do no harm < http://donoharm.us/ >,
clyde

Matt;

Are you are pursuing enlightenment? If you are, then is reading and replying to posts part of your practice towards enlightenment? If you are, do you drink and eat? How do you obtain things to drink and eat? How do you prepare things to drink and eat? Are those activities part of your practice towards enlightenment? Do you read a newspaper, listen to music, watch television, or go to the movies? Do you walk in the park or talk with friends?

Even monks in monasteries and hermits in caves engage in ordinary daily activities. It is then that one practices “do no harm.”

Do no harm < http://donoharm.us/ >,
clyde

Matt Gregory wrote: If you're working towards enlightenment, you're working towards enlightenment. It's not possible to do anything else at the same time. I suppose you could work on enlightenment part time and do something else the rest of the time, but that will never bring you to enlightenment. You have to be fully devoted to it in order to make it happen. Pursuing enlightenment isn't like getting a diploma or something that you can do in your spare time, it's a lifestyle.

Says who?

Matt Gregory wrote:... but everybody is different. They have different thoughts, different backgrounds, and different responses to thoughts.

And therefore different paths to enlightenment.
This is not a "One-Size-Fits-All" Universe. No One can claim there is but one path to Realization.
Truth is where you find it, not in how you look for it.

Please, Do No Harm!

Chuck

clyde wrote:Matt;

Are you are pursuing enlightenment?

Yes.

If you are, then is reading and replying to posts part of your practice towards enlightenment? If you are, do you drink and eat? How do you obtain things to drink and eat? How do you prepare things to drink and eat? Are those activities part of your practice towards enlightenment? Do you read a newspaper, listen to music, watch television, or go to the movies? Do you walk in the park or talk with friends?

Even monks in monasteries and hermits in caves engage in ordinary daily activities. It is then that one practices “do no harm.”

Why should I practice your method when it's totally incompatible with the pursuit of enlightenment, which is what I'm working towards? What is it going to do for me?

cckeiser wrote:

Matt Gregory wrote: If you're working towards enlightenment, you're working towards enlightenment. It's not possible to do anything else at the same time. I suppose you could work on enlightenment part time and do something else the rest of the time, but that will never bring you to enlightenment. You have to be fully devoted to it in order to make it happen. Pursuing enlightenment isn't like getting a diploma or something that you can do in your spare time, it's a lifestyle.

Says who?

Someone who knows what they are talking about.

Matt Gregory wrote:... but everybody is different. They have different thoughts, different backgrounds, and different responses to thoughts.

And therefore different paths to enlightenment.
This is not a "One-Size-Fits-All" Universe. No One can claim there is but one path to Realization.

Right, because that shoot down your movement wouldn't it, since it has nothing to do with Truth.

Truth is where you find it, not in how you look for it.

Truth is neither of these things.

So tell me, how come you guys are trying to start yet another religion when there are already tons of religions out there preaching the exact same thing and even in a more complete and more deeply considered way? How does anyone (besides you two) benefit from joining your movement in particular?

clyde wrote:Diebert;

You asked,

Do you ever wonder if your phrase might actually harm your cause more than it does good?

I don’t think you have been adversely effected. Have you? Should I be concerned that you may be adversely effected?

Do you notice how you're making it about you or me each time without any encouragement on my side?

Again, when you say do no harm, most will interpret it as "let's be more nice to each other", which is nothing more than the obvious way for a society to function. It's the social aspect of the animal that organizes us as well binds us the moment we start to think outside that box.

The link with enlightenment is hardly existing and therefore your tagline is not fit to be the flag on the ship toward deeper understanding. And because it's not fit, it's harming the cause. And increases suffering for those fooling themselves in having found something profound in what boils down to the modus operandi of a herd.

Matt Gregory wrote:Why should I practice your method when it's totally incompatible with the pursuit of enlightenment, which is what I'm working towards? What is it going to do for me?

Matt;
While I do not believe that “Do no harm” is “totally incompatible with the pursuit of enlightenment,” I wish you well on your pursuit.

Do no harm < http://donoharm.us/ >,
clyde

Matt Gregory wrote:So tell me, how come you guys are trying to start yet another religion when there are already tons of religions out there preaching the exact same thing and even in a more complete and more deeply considered way? How does anyone (besides you two) benefit from joining your movement in particular?

Matt;

We are not “trying to start yet another religion” and other than a more hospitable world we derive no benefit from our efforts. From our website (Rule: http://donoharm.us/_wsn/page2.html):

The “Do No Harm” Rules


If you think you’re a member,
You’re a member.

If you think you’re not a member,
You’re an honorary member.

There are no dues or fees.
There are no donations.

There is no official language or terminology.
There are no approved or disapproved concepts.

There is nothing special that one must believe.
There is nothing special that you must do or not do.

But . . . do no harm.



p.s: Although not required, a sense of humor is helpful.

clyde wrote:Matt;

We are not “trying to start yet another religion” and other than a more hospitable world we derive no benefit from our efforts. From our website (Rule: http://donoharm.us/_wsn/page2.html):

The “Do No Harm” Rules


If you think you’re a member,
You’re a member.

If you think you’re not a member,
You’re an honorary member.

There are no dues or fees.
There are no donations.

There is no official language or terminology.
There are no approved or disapproved concepts.

There is nothing special that one must believe.
There is nothing special that you must do or not do.

But . . . do no harm.



p.s: Although not required, a sense of humor is helpful.

Sounds like a group for a bunch of panzys who are affraid to hurt people's feelings. This means that essentially your group is all about the preservation of the ego, when in fact the path to enlightenment leads to it's destruction. So your "religion/group" is actually totally incompatible with the path to enlightenment.

-Nick

Clyde wrote:

p.s: Although not required, a sense of humor is helpful.

Nietzsche once remarked, with great insight, that laughter was maliciousness without a conscience.

-

Laughing at oneself is then the best medicine.

!

Matt;

You did not state which teaching you follow or what practice you do. And you have not stated whom you consider enlightened. Some consider Gautama Buddha an enlightened human being. He is reported to have said:

270. He is not noble who injures living beings. He is called noble because he is harmless towards all living beings.

- Dhammapada XIX

Do no harm < http://donoharm.us/ >,
clyde

Matt Gregory wrote:
So tell me, how come you guys are trying to start yet another religion when there are already tons of religions out there preaching the exact same thing and even in a more complete and more deeply considered way? How does anyone (besides you two) benefit from joining your movement in particular?

The "Preachers" have not been practicing what they have been preaching,
and Preaching is the accurate word for what they have been doing.
They have only been paying lip service to "Do unto..." etc. then closing the book an
signing it off as `message delivered,' now lets get down to business as usual.
Very few ever take it to heart, and children learn by example.
The message "do no harm" is left in the library.

Most religions hang "Love" on the door, but preach Hate to the pews.
"Love thy neighbor..." as long as he believes the same as you.

Through the child eyes the Universe is a place full of wonder and
mystery, and as a child we are promised; "When you get older you will
understand" and assumed that one day we too would know the answers to
all these mysteries.
How disillusioned we are when we become of an age to see things as
they are and to discover to our horror all those promises of
knowledge where empty. The grown-ups we idolized don't have a clue!
They are just as befuddled as we were, and had no more answers than we did.
Oh they pretend to know, but their answers are really no answers at all. Everyone pointing in a different direction saying "This is The Way" but none are really following it themselves.
They walked through life doing things not because they know the
reasons, but because someone else told them this is what you do.
As children we are more idealistic and expect more than an empty 9
to 5. We were promised a world of astonishing wonders filled with
miracles. Instead we get dirty dishwater only punctuated by
mysteries we have no time to find the answers to, and no one we
trust to ask. There is no Santa Clause.

In our teens we witness the banality of the world that was created
for us and rebel at the pretenses, distortions, and corruptions of
all those we once trusted and idolized.
Parents and professors, preachers and priests, politicians and
police, they all lie!
They tell us "Do No Harm", "Tell the truth", "Be honest and fair", but
they do just the opposite!
We learn, all we were told is a sham and the world cannot be trusted.
It's dog eat dog and everyone is out for themselves world. Everyone
is a mark, a pigeon, a dupe, a patsy, a pawn to be taken advantage
of. "Do unto others then scram!" is the real reality.
This is not the world we were promised.

Some rebel, but sooner or later most but a few, succumb to things as
they are and realize to survive in a den of monsters, one must be a monster.
Idealism slips away almost unnoticed and is abandoned for realism,
no matter how false that reality may be. We become the enemy we
despised. We cease to believe in miracles and stop wondering at
wonders. We trust no one. We survive in paranoia. We expect no
quarter and give none in return.
It's Business as usual. "Get yours before someone else gets it
all!" "Never give a Sucker and even brake!" "I got mine, so Screw You!"
This is not the world we were promised!

We were betrayed by the lies of the world.

Make no mistake, we are all monsters. We are all descended from the
Predator monster and rip flesh from bone with our teeth and drink
the blood with our gravy.
It is our inheritance, our endowment, our legacy. We are Monsters in
three piece suits and neckties. We are Monsters in gowns and tiaras.
We are Monsters in baseball caps and sneakers. We are Monsters all!
But we are Monster who dream of becoming gods.
Somewhere deep down inside the idealism of our child still survives.
Oh what a glorious world this could be if only we could do no harm.
If only we could raise ourselves above ourselves and purge "The
Monster from our Id."

If you want proof of The Monster, just look at the replies on this
forum. We have been actively spreading the Do No Harm message for a
months now, and to our initial surprise it was greeted with more than
a little resistence. I would have thought the simple message Do No
Harm would not require defending! But for a moment I also forgot
about "The Monster in the Id."

The Monster is quite comfortable where it is and does not want to be
vanquished. Instinctively it will rebel and subconsciously resist
the thought of Do No Harm. Even those who claim to be enlightened
and spiritual suddenly find excuses why Do No Harm is impossible.
Why it is a good idea, but will never work. Some say they will
support us, but we already know it's only lip service.
They are all lip and no tongue.

Their Monster is resisting and providing them with any excuse to
question and ignore the cry for compassion. It is not our natural
state to do no harm. Some cannot even bring themselves to say the
words. They want to change them to something less, to something more
accommodating.
Rather than Do No Harm, I will think "Do Good!" "Be Nice" "Be Kind"
anything but Do No Harm!
The message Do No Harm is very simple: Do No Harm.
It is up to you to decide what that message means, and how it
applies to you personally.
We are not asking you to do good. We are not asking you to do
anything at all, just do no harm.
The only purpose of our movement is to help facilitate the creation
of a more compassionate world.


We would like the Do No Harm movement to be an "in your face" subliminal message that
if repeated again and again will, over time, become ingrained into the psyche. It is designed to get under your skin, push your mental buttons and tug at the idealism of your inner child.
When exposed repeatedly to Do No Harm the effect will be to cause a
moment of reflection before an action. Do No Harm will become the
little voice inside the mind, the voice of the angel on your
shoulder, persuading, pleading and commanding you to do no harm.

The problem as you can see is it's a little to late for most people
today. Some it might help, but others have already given in to their
Monster. To be really effective the exposure to the message should
start early in childhood and be reinforced continuously. Not only in
words, but also by example.
We cannot say one thing then do another contradictory thing. We only
feed the Monster and breed rebellion by being false.

This world can be compassionate. This world can be glorious. This world can be whatever we wish it to be. But first we must vanquish the Monster within.
Perhaps it will not happen today or tomorrow, but if we can get the
message out there, to as many as possible, and on as many places as possible; someday it just might make a difference.
But we will never know if we never try.
If we do not attempt to change things, things will never change.

Do No Harm!

Chuck

.

cckeiser wrote:If you all feel so strongly you have a better idea...Do It! Start your own movement with your ideas.

It's staring you in the face, but you're not seeing it because you're used to focusing on the tips of issues rather than their root, to moshing with others in a herdly way, etc.


.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:

clyde wrote:Diebert;

You asked,

Do you ever wonder if your phrase might actually harm your cause more than it does good?

I don’t think you have been adversely effected. Have you? Should I be concerned that you may be adversely effected?

Do you notice how you're making it about you or me each time without any encouragement on my side?

Again, when you say do no harm, most will interpret it as "let's be more nice to each other", which is nothing more than the obvious way for a society to function. It's the social aspect of the animal that organizes us as well binds us the moment we start to think outside that box.

The link with enlightenment is hardly existing and therefore your tagline is not fit to be the flag on the ship toward deeper understanding. And because it's not fit, it's harming the cause. And increases suffering for those fooling themselves in having found something profound in what boils down to the modus operandi of a herd.

Diebert;

Yes, I do make it personal. I can share with you what I experience and understand, and I can report to you what others share with me, but I cannot say how “most will interpret it”. As you have expressed concern that some might be harmed, it seemed appropriate to inquire if you had been harmed. Have you?

While I disagree with you regarding “do no harm,” I do commend your concern for the welfare of others. That concern may be your expression of “do no harm”.

Do no harm < http://donoharm.us/ >,
clyde

Nick Treklis wrote:Sounds like a group for a bunch of panzys who are affraid to hurt people's feelings. This means that essentially your group is all about the preservation of the ego, when in fact the path to enlightenment leads to it's destruction. So your "religion/group" is actually totally incompatible with the path to enlightenment.

-Nick

Nick;

Suffering includes more than hurt feelings and “do no harm” is not about fear. But your statement caused me to wonder, are you afraid of your feelings?

“Do no harm” is not a religion or a group, unless you call two friends who promote “do no harm” a group.

What “path to enlightenment” are you following and does it encourage causing suffering or does it encourage wisdom and compassion?

Do no harm < http://donoharm.us/ >,
clyde

Clyde wrote:

While I do not believe that “Do no harm” is “totally incompatible with the pursuit of enlightenment,”

Well, if you have to put down the pursuit of enlightenment in order to pursue "do no harm" then that's a pretty good indication that it's not compatible.

I wish you well on your pursuit.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I wish you equally well in abandoning this pursuit of "do no harm" because it's superficial and because of that it doesn't benefit anyone.

Clyde,

You did not state which teaching you follow or what practice you do.

I'm not religious, so I don't follow teachings. I think about teachings, but I don't follow them like laws or anything. Spiritual teachings are meant to bring someone to their own wisdom. They are always written for and meant to be read by a single individual, not two people or three people or a group of people or everybody or anything like that. Teachings meant for everybody are always false.

And you have not stated whom you consider enlightened.

Kevin Solway and David Quinn on this forum are highly enlightened and won't steer you wrong. Yeah, Buddhism I hold in high regard, including the Zen stuff. The Bhagavad Gita is really good. There are others.

Some consider Gautama Buddha an enlightened human being. He is reported to have said:

270. He is not noble who injures living beings. He is called noble because he is harmless towards all living beings.

- Dhammapada XIX

Well, notice it's one verse out of hundreds of volumes of scripture. Wisdom can't be condensed into a simple rule like that, no matter how clever it is because wisdom is the ability to reason correctly and a few words aren't nearly enough to teach someone how to do that. A fixed rule or a set of rules will never replace wise judgement.

Chuck wrote:

The "Preachers" have not been practicing what they have been preaching,
and Preaching is the accurate word for what they have been doing.
They have only been paying lip service to "Do unto..." etc. then closing the book an
signing it off as `message delivered,' now lets get down to business as usual.
Very few ever take it to heart, and children learn by example.
The message "do no harm" is left in the library.

Most religions hang "Love" on the door, but preach Hate to the pews.
"Love thy neighbor..." as long as he believes the same as you.

Your preaching is no different from all the rest of them, pitting the "do no harm" people against the other people you are demonizing. That's the beginning of war.

clyde wrote: Yes, I do make it personal. I can share with you what I experience and understand, and I can report to you what others share with me, but I cannot say how “most will interpret it”.

It would be interesting to know what others outside this forum shared with you about their interpretation of your 'no harm' campaign. The only experience I have with reactions on your phrase is on this forum so far. Are these reactions never a reason for you to doubt the quality of our campaign? See also my following remark to cc about perceived resistance.

clyde wrote:As you have expressed concern that some might be harmed, it seemed appropriate to inquire if you had been harmed. Have you?

Since I understand how harm (suffering) is caused I'm in the position to evaluate and explain how your line of thinking is causing 'harm' to people. But as I said before harm is a relative term and basically embodies the things we consider damaging to that what we value most. Therefore there might be a slight misunderstanding if we both use the term harm without sharing values about what is most important. If you understand what I'm saying here, you also might start to understand why "do no harm" is not addressing the core issue (of value, identity, focus) and therefore remains only superficial, in other words: a cause of the problem, and not even near to pointing to any solution.