You're not understanding what I'm saying. If it is logically the case that a thing necessarily has causes, then it is logically the case that case that cause and effect goes back forever.
To repeat, this is purely a logical issue. It has nothing to do with taking things on faith, nor is it an issue which can be resolved by conducting scientific experiments. It is beyond both faith and science. It's a matter of logically investigating what a "thing" is and seeing whether it can ever arise without causes. And the answer is, no, it can't.
I mostly agree, but what does this actually mean? Not a great deal. Faith is still involved. To say that something goes back forever is really almost as meaningless as saying there is a first cause.
At some stage there must be an essential self-caussing creative force.
Where is the explanation for this?
A=A
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zarathustra
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David Quinn
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James,
Understanding that cause and effect goes back forever is very significant. For one thing, it eliminates the possibility of a supernatural God, so we can ditch that one straight away. More importantly, it points to the basic process of creation, which operates in every aspect of Nature, in all times and places, without exception. This, in turn, points the mind towards an understanding of the very nature of Reality itself, which is the prize of enlightenment. So there are lots of implications involved.
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It only requires a faith in logic, which isn't really faith at all.I mostly agree, but what does this actually mean? Not a great deal. Faith is still involved.
Understanding that cause and effect goes back forever is very significant. For one thing, it eliminates the possibility of a supernatural God, so we can ditch that one straight away. More importantly, it points to the basic process of creation, which operates in every aspect of Nature, in all times and places, without exception. This, in turn, points the mind towards an understanding of the very nature of Reality itself, which is the prize of enlightenment. So there are lots of implications involved.
It's only meaningless if you don't value truth.To say that something goes back forever is really almost as meaningless as saying there is a first cause.
Nature itself is this force.At some stage there must be an essential self-caussing creative force.
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zarathustra
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zarathustra
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now, not only is the chameeeleeon changing colour he's eating his own tail!
a few questions (this is so much fun!): what do you mean by faith in logic which isn't really faith at all? Mmm...
how does understanding that cause and effect going back forever eliminate the possibllity of a supernatural god?
please explain this 'process of creation' ( how does it logically work? ) that operates in nature?
and what exactly do you mean by Nature?
the nature of reality? what does this mean?
is it the same as the reality of nature?
what do you mean by the 'prize' of enlightenment.
what do you mean, logocally speaking by enlightenment?
thanks Q, I look forward to your answers
a few questions (this is so much fun!): what do you mean by faith in logic which isn't really faith at all? Mmm...
how does understanding that cause and effect going back forever eliminate the possibllity of a supernatural god?
please explain this 'process of creation' ( how does it logically work? ) that operates in nature?
and what exactly do you mean by Nature?
the nature of reality? what does this mean?
is it the same as the reality of nature?
what do you mean by the 'prize' of enlightenment.
what do you mean, logocally speaking by enlightenment?
thanks Q, I look forward to your answers
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David Quinn
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All of these matters have been explained in great detail in my free ebook - Wisdom of the Infinite. I know you haven't read it, and I know you're not really interested, because you're essentially just a troll, but others might find this information worthwhile.
Anyhow .....
A lot of people try to undermine the validity of logic because they have emotional attachments to protect. An obvious example is the fundamentalist Christian who keeps throwing rationality out the window because, deep down, he recognizes the threat that reason poses to his Bible beliefs.
That's a big question, so I'll refer you to my book where I have already outlined this matter in great detail.
The tremendous spiritual experience and knowledge that arises when one finally pierces through the core delusion of existence - namely, the belief that things inherently exist.
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Anyhow .....
It means having the ability to recognize the validity of the logical process and having the courage to push it to the very end.a few questions (this is so much fun!): what do you mean by faith in logic which isn't really faith at all? Mmm...
A lot of people try to undermine the validity of logic because they have emotional attachments to protect. An obvious example is the fundamentalist Christian who keeps throwing rationality out the window because, deep down, he recognizes the threat that reason poses to his Bible beliefs.
Because if causality is all there is, then he becomes redundant.how does understanding that cause and effect going back forever eliminate the possibllity of a supernatural god?
please explain this 'process of creation' ( how does it logically work? ) that operates in nature?
That's a big question, so I'll refer you to my book where I have already outlined this matter in great detail.
I've already explained a few times in the last couple of says that it means the totality of all there is. But because you are a troll, you are not bothering to listen.and what exactly do you mean by Nature?
The core principle of Nature, which is everywhere and everywhen.the nature of reality? what does this mean?
Cute.is it the same as the reality of nature?
what do you mean by the 'prize' of enlightenment.
The tremendous spiritual experience and knowledge that arises when one finally pierces through the core delusion of existence - namely, the belief that things inherently exist.
What the mind experiences when it is no longer being distorted by emotional attachments, delusions, false thinking, mental blocks, etc. A pristine clarity of mind which reflects things as they are, and no longer projects what isn't really there.what do you mean, logocally speaking by enlightenment?
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zarathustra
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...that's a good start....
and now down to business : logic is a BIG subject Q - what sort of logic are you talking about here?
where do you envisage this 'end' to be? if it's endless then obviously it has no end.
causality is in fact cause=effect, is that it means logically to you?
how do you know causality is all there is?
ok no answer....you say, that before I get the answer to that one I have to read your book. ok
so reality is the principle of nature. if so, then how is the core
distinguished from the reality? is it a spatial/temporal difference? is it intellectual ( in the eye of the beholder )? is it spiritual? is it moral? is it energetic?
are you enlightened Q?
I would like to ask one last thing: is this nature you talk about in-itself inherently moral?
is nature inherently ' created ' by itself or is it caused?
is there a design to nature, an inherent intelligence?
or is it just a random series of interconnected events,
subject to fate and chance?
and now down to business : logic is a BIG subject Q - what sort of logic are you talking about here?
where do you envisage this 'end' to be? if it's endless then obviously it has no end.
causality is in fact cause=effect, is that it means logically to you?
how do you know causality is all there is?
ok no answer....you say, that before I get the answer to that one I have to read your book. ok
so reality is the principle of nature. if so, then how is the core
distinguished from the reality? is it a spatial/temporal difference? is it intellectual ( in the eye of the beholder )? is it spiritual? is it moral? is it energetic?
are you enlightened Q?
I would like to ask one last thing: is this nature you talk about in-itself inherently moral?
is nature inherently ' created ' by itself or is it caused?
is there a design to nature, an inherent intelligence?
or is it just a random series of interconnected events,
subject to fate and chance?
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Kevin Solway
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Nature
Given that "nature" has been defined to mean "everything", ie, the Totality, then what could possibly cause it? By definition there is nothing other than itself.zarathustra wrote:is nature inherently ' created ' by itself or is it caused?
is there a design to nature, an inherent intelligence?
It is not a "thing" which could be caused, since there is nothing other than itself.
Likewise with regard to "design" . . . "design" compared to what? Since nature is everything, it includes anything which might have design or lack of design.
If intelligence is a thing (ie, it is not the whole of nature), it must therefore be caused, and therefore is not inherent. Nature includes any such intelligence, as well as the cause of the intelligence, by definition.inherent intelligence?
On the other hand, if by "intelligence" you mean the Totality of all there is, the whole of nature, then it doesn't mean anything to call it "inherent", since there is nothing other than itself, which is to say it is not "in" anything.
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zarathustra
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Nature...
nature is only nature, it has no intelligence, conscience, ethics, spirit, morals, design, plan, nor is it kind, compassionate, evil, good, empathetic and so on...IT IS...and it is timeless...time itself is a human construct grafted on to existence. tick tock tick tock...Human beings attribute qualities to nature and to time, such as cause and effect. in reality there is no cause or effect. shit just happen...man needs reasons, where none exist. it is man who creates gods and destroys them...the concept of 'infinity' or 'ultimate' or 'god' by their very nature rob man of meaning, and devalue meaning itself. beyond all the qualities man has bistowed upon nature there is only the everchanging and present moment, where in he finds himself. as mr smith said to neo (marrix 3): smith: why do you keep getting up, don't you know when you're beaten? neo: because I choose to....
post post modernism: the future...
post post modernism: the future...
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zarathustra
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Naivete and Shape Shifting
When that which you choose not to experience - due to false beliefs, and
a falsified ego projection - turns flowers into wolves:
Is this enlightenment, David?
Why sit down?
(Nice equalization technique, by the way)
a falsified ego projection - turns flowers into wolves:
Is this enlightenment, David?
Why sit down?
(Nice equalization technique, by the way)
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David Quinn
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zarathustra wrote:
Shit does not materialize out of thin air. That's akin to believing in religious magic.
Agreed, there are no reasons to why anything exists. There are only causes.
Because, logically, a thing necessarily has causes.
On the other hand, most people are unconscious of the core because they subconsciously drape their experiences with conceptual fantasies, thus obscuring the view. These conceptual fantasies range from the cruder varieties, such as the belief that matter objectively exists or that shit just happens randomly, to more subtle ones, such as the belief that everything is a creation of mind, or that things have a beginning and end.
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I'm sorry, but shit only happens because it is caused to happen....Human beings attribute qualities to nature and to time, such as cause and effect. in reality there is no cause or effect. shit just happen...
Shit does not materialize out of thin air. That's akin to believing in religious magic.
man needs reasons, where none exist.
Agreed, there are no reasons to why anything exists. There are only causes.
I'm sorry, but that is merely your belief and your projection. Don't pretend otherwise.it is man who creates gods and destroys them...the concept of 'infinity' or 'ultimate' or 'god' by their very nature rob man of meaning, and devalue meaning itself. beyond all the qualities man has bistowed upon nature there is only the everchanging and present moment, where in he finds himself.
Ordinary deductive logic.and now down to business : logic is a BIG subject Q - what sort of logic are you talking about here?
Causality means there is no beginning or end to anything. There are no boundaries in the world, and no "things". There is only a sea of causality, a seamless continuum which comprises the whole of Nature.causality is in fact cause=effect, is that it means logically to you?
how do you know causality is all there is?
Because, logically, a thing necessarily has causes.
Well, all things are direct manifestations of Realiy and they all fully express its fundamental nature, without exception. There is not a speck of existence anywhere which doesn't fully reflect this core nature. So in that sense, there is no difference at all between what we experience from moment to moment and the core.so reality is the principle of nature. if so, then how is the core
distinguished from the reality? is it a spatial/temporal difference? is it intellectual ( in the eye of the beholder )? is it spiritual? is it moral? is it energetic?
On the other hand, most people are unconscious of the core because they subconsciously drape their experiences with conceptual fantasies, thus obscuring the view. These conceptual fantasies range from the cruder varieties, such as the belief that matter objectively exists or that shit just happens randomly, to more subtle ones, such as the belief that everything is a creation of mind, or that things have a beginning and end.
To the degree I am not projecting conceptual fantasies onto the world and I am fully conscious of its true nature - a situation which varies from moment to moment - to that degree I am enlightened.are you enlightened Q?
No, Nature is amoral. It has no consciousness, no values, no preferences, no desires, no aims, no purpose. Nature wouldn't care in the least if tomorrow the whole human race died a slow and agonizing death, or if a Hitler-type took over the world and tortured everyone endlessly. Equally, Nature wouldn't care if everyone became fully-enlightened Buddhas and wisdom ruled the world. It is utterly indifferent either way.I would like to ask one last thing: is this nature you talk about in-itself inherently moral?
There is only cause and effect, which is blind and aimless.is there a design to nature, an inherent intelligence?
Well, there isn't really randomness or chance either. They're just more things that we like to project into Nature, or on to certain processes of Nature. When a dice is rolled and turns up a six, it wasn't chance or randomness which produced this outcome. It was a series of causal processes.or is it just a random series of interconnected events,
subject to fate and chance?
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David Quinn
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Unknown wrote:
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There's nothing sinister about this. I'd rather conserve energy by posting a link to already written material than having to go through the tedious process of writing it all again on this forum, especially when it comes to more complex material.Quinn is pushing his BOOK in every few posts,
You wear that enlightenment label so heavily around your neck that it weighs you down and causes you to bend over from the waist. Don't be such a hypocrite.If you are enlightened , no need for enlightened label needed. THINK.
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Kevin: Given that "nature" has been defined to mean "everything", ie, the Totality, then what could possibly cause it? By definition there is nothing other than itself.
I have a henid idea that this is not actually true. I would prefer to define the totality as every existing thing, but not including nothingness, not including that which does not presently exist.
Defined in this way, it allows for the totality to move, expand and never become completely entropic. It also allows for a continous causual interrelationship between The Physical Spatial Totality, an infinite expanding force, and it's complete opposite, Nothingness, which is an infinite space providing force.
Nothingness is what causes the Totality to expand, it is kind of like a vaccuum that stretches out the universe and tears the spatial fabric - which in turn allows for movement within the totality, as opposed to just a expanding solid totality. Movement in turn allows for things. It is kind of the active cause, the essential force cause, and the physical is the effect (which of course must also be a cause).
Although these opposites are infinite, they are two different forms, and importantly can never be equal. It is the permanent inequality between them that causes the universe to flow.
I have a henid idea that this is not actually true. I would prefer to define the totality as every existing thing, but not including nothingness, not including that which does not presently exist.
Defined in this way, it allows for the totality to move, expand and never become completely entropic. It also allows for a continous causual interrelationship between The Physical Spatial Totality, an infinite expanding force, and it's complete opposite, Nothingness, which is an infinite space providing force.
Nothingness is what causes the Totality to expand, it is kind of like a vaccuum that stretches out the universe and tears the spatial fabric - which in turn allows for movement within the totality, as opposed to just a expanding solid totality. Movement in turn allows for things. It is kind of the active cause, the essential force cause, and the physical is the effect (which of course must also be a cause).
Although these opposites are infinite, they are two different forms, and importantly can never be equal. It is the permanent inequality between them that causes the universe to flow.
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zarathustra
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my considerations:
false ? true? value judgements. what is true for one man is not true for another. as time goes by truth in science also changes.
laws constantly change the more we 'look into' the phenomenon of IT IS...
despite the stupid crazy things human beings have done and have inflicted on eachother, our achievement as a species just through our LOOKING ( as distinct from believing ) is absolutely mind-boggling, in 50 years we have on some levels come so far, but on other levels we are still in the dark ages, which goes to prove that we all have a lot to learn...our emotions, our senses, reason, logic, truth are all important to us, they help to define what we are and what we do. the way we think and act impacts upon them and leads us to 'react' to our brothers and sisters and the world around in a particular way.
for example, look at the way we react in this forum, how confrontational I have been, how arrogant Q has been, how demeaning hodges can be, how pompous and demanding mrs so and so is....what are we trying to prove? and for what - whats the pay off? it seems no matter how grand, beautiful or true our ideas are, we all get stuck at the one basic level: how we relate to our brothers and sisters. Lets get rid of foresta gumpa - she's a booring! zarathustra's a troll! Q's a lizard that eats his own tail! I don't exist, yet I do exist,and on and on it goes....but what are we really saying beneath all this waffle? I'll leave you to contemplate that...
for me, I accept certain things about this world: primarily,that truth cannot be known. I also have this 'feeling' that there is something more to the 'IT' of IT IS...and I'm comfortable with that, i.e. the fact that I am part of a great mystery...I also accept that it is meaningless to take a stand for god or atheism or for any of the 'residue' they they leave in their wake. none of this stuff can be known, so why bother? Ask me about it and I'll say I don't know...perhaps, perhaps not...but to me it's not that important. as for the influence god and atheism have had on the world, I know about that, because I can see what such beliefs are doing to the world and to the people who live in it...I don't have to give examples, its obvious...
so what if , one day, people decided that religion, god and their opposites and all that flows there from, were not that important. that perhaps the choosen people were not choosen that the end of the world was not a certainty, that islam doesn't hold the keys to the meaning of life, that the hindu caste system is not the best way forward for india,that george bush is not a messanger from god, that Ksol's book is a beautiful philosophical construct, but still only 'a view' that zarathustra's post post modernism is cute, but in many ways flawed.....suppose this was the way we decided to teach our children to 'view' their world...how would the world be, thereafter, if by some chance this observation was taken seriously? If people realized that the world 'IT IS' was bigger than their ideas about it...I suspect that walls would begin to crumble, internally and externally...that our losses would be small, and our rewards immeasurable...as for science, it would go its own merry way, but perhaps, just perhaps it would be tempered with just a little more empathy and compassion....
silly isnt it? I know, but then, it is my birthday today...I'm 19, still young, still idealistic, still too cocksure of myself....
false ? true? value judgements. what is true for one man is not true for another. as time goes by truth in science also changes.
laws constantly change the more we 'look into' the phenomenon of IT IS...
despite the stupid crazy things human beings have done and have inflicted on eachother, our achievement as a species just through our LOOKING ( as distinct from believing ) is absolutely mind-boggling, in 50 years we have on some levels come so far, but on other levels we are still in the dark ages, which goes to prove that we all have a lot to learn...our emotions, our senses, reason, logic, truth are all important to us, they help to define what we are and what we do. the way we think and act impacts upon them and leads us to 'react' to our brothers and sisters and the world around in a particular way.
for example, look at the way we react in this forum, how confrontational I have been, how arrogant Q has been, how demeaning hodges can be, how pompous and demanding mrs so and so is....what are we trying to prove? and for what - whats the pay off? it seems no matter how grand, beautiful or true our ideas are, we all get stuck at the one basic level: how we relate to our brothers and sisters. Lets get rid of foresta gumpa - she's a booring! zarathustra's a troll! Q's a lizard that eats his own tail! I don't exist, yet I do exist,and on and on it goes....but what are we really saying beneath all this waffle? I'll leave you to contemplate that...
for me, I accept certain things about this world: primarily,that truth cannot be known. I also have this 'feeling' that there is something more to the 'IT' of IT IS...and I'm comfortable with that, i.e. the fact that I am part of a great mystery...I also accept that it is meaningless to take a stand for god or atheism or for any of the 'residue' they they leave in their wake. none of this stuff can be known, so why bother? Ask me about it and I'll say I don't know...perhaps, perhaps not...but to me it's not that important. as for the influence god and atheism have had on the world, I know about that, because I can see what such beliefs are doing to the world and to the people who live in it...I don't have to give examples, its obvious...
so what if , one day, people decided that religion, god and their opposites and all that flows there from, were not that important. that perhaps the choosen people were not choosen that the end of the world was not a certainty, that islam doesn't hold the keys to the meaning of life, that the hindu caste system is not the best way forward for india,that george bush is not a messanger from god, that Ksol's book is a beautiful philosophical construct, but still only 'a view' that zarathustra's post post modernism is cute, but in many ways flawed.....suppose this was the way we decided to teach our children to 'view' their world...how would the world be, thereafter, if by some chance this observation was taken seriously? If people realized that the world 'IT IS' was bigger than their ideas about it...I suspect that walls would begin to crumble, internally and externally...that our losses would be small, and our rewards immeasurable...as for science, it would go its own merry way, but perhaps, just perhaps it would be tempered with just a little more empathy and compassion....
silly isnt it? I know, but then, it is my birthday today...I'm 19, still young, still idealistic, still too cocksure of myself....
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zarathustra
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who said i am enlightened?. I do not exists. I do not need anything from anyone. I do not expect you to listen or respond to me. if you respond that is your urge to solve your puzzle.
I have no book to offer or theory to offer. I have nothing to offer you. I am non existant except in your illusions. You create your illusions and blame others for it.
All humans are born hypocrite.for him, All the problems are created by others. THINK!.
He knows he is the problem creator and that is obvious, so he blame others to boost his low morale.
Humans are weak fools, he needs belief as an anchor to survive. Humans breath belief unless he is non existant.
Ask questions...atleast you starting something.
Accepting or try to answer is way to shutdown your system. Either your brain can't handle open ended situation or you are running out of energy in asking questions and having headache and settled with some answers(belief) for a while.
Nothing wrong with that. Because you can't change who you are. You are breathing belief.
peace
unknown
I have no book to offer or theory to offer. I have nothing to offer you. I am non existant except in your illusions. You create your illusions and blame others for it.
All humans are born hypocrite.for him, All the problems are created by others. THINK!.
He knows he is the problem creator and that is obvious, so he blame others to boost his low morale.
Humans are weak fools, he needs belief as an anchor to survive. Humans breath belief unless he is non existant.
Ask questions...atleast you starting something.
Accepting or try to answer is way to shutdown your system. Either your brain can't handle open ended situation or you are running out of energy in asking questions and having headache and settled with some answers(belief) for a while.
Nothing wrong with that. Because you can't change who you are. You are breathing belief.
peace
unknown
Humans are closed loop systems. if you know little bit about PID(proportionate, integral, differential) controller or fuzzy logic , you will undertstand more about yourself.
You are imperfect. You wanted to be perfect by following certain rules to correct your imperfectness.
You all are talking to yourself and self hypnotizing every minute.
I really do not like to attack quinn or anyone except calling humans as fools in general terms.
Because no one is perfect. There is no reason to point out every human's flaw.
if everything in the world is perfect , life would be boring.
Life force will flow only if imperfectness everywhere.
just observe....remove your own context , you will be no longer the judge, you will me metamorphisys into different person as they speak, fight....happy....
Its all there to see , yet you have been blinded by the belief you have been conditioned.
Ask question to yourself, you make your own path.
peace
unknown
You are imperfect. You wanted to be perfect by following certain rules to correct your imperfectness.
You all are talking to yourself and self hypnotizing every minute.
I really do not like to attack quinn or anyone except calling humans as fools in general terms.
Because no one is perfect. There is no reason to point out every human's flaw.
if everything in the world is perfect , life would be boring.
Life force will flow only if imperfectness everywhere.
just observe....remove your own context , you will be no longer the judge, you will me metamorphisys into different person as they speak, fight....happy....
Its all there to see , yet you have been blinded by the belief you have been conditioned.
Ask question to yourself, you make your own path.
peace
unknown
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Kevin Solway
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Perfection
Presumably, to be consistent, you will agree that this statement of yours is imperfect. To what degree do you think it is imperfect? Is it 50% imperfect? 90% imperfect? 100% imperfect?unknown wrote:You are imperfect.
There is someone you have to read , not because of what he is, but there is a comedy.
The guy is UG. krishnamurti. He is kind of hypocrite. He says things which is funny. A introspective look at humans.
But he becomes a parrot. He wants to be recongnized. That is why he talks to people. Travel around the world. he is kind of showoff. He did one thing real good. He eliminated most concepts except his ego.
He is a fool in some sort because he exists and talk to people.
Humans can't be cured. Thats final state.
Because, you may ask what is cure? cure from what?.
Humans are idol worshippers. Humans need reference. Humans are babbling monkeys!.
Ask questions, Never agree or disagree.
You have been contioned to take sides. You have been rationalized. You have to deprogrammed (sort of)...
The level of deprogramming depends each individual ability and limits. Humans are limited entity.
peace
unknown
The guy is UG. krishnamurti. He is kind of hypocrite. He says things which is funny. A introspective look at humans.
But he becomes a parrot. He wants to be recongnized. That is why he talks to people. Travel around the world. he is kind of showoff. He did one thing real good. He eliminated most concepts except his ego.
He is a fool in some sort because he exists and talk to people.
Humans can't be cured. Thats final state.
Because, you may ask what is cure? cure from what?.
Humans are idol worshippers. Humans need reference. Humans are babbling monkeys!.
Ask questions, Never agree or disagree.
You have been contioned to take sides. You have been rationalized. You have to deprogrammed (sort of)...
The level of deprogramming depends each individual ability and limits. Humans are limited entity.
peace
unknown
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Kevin Solway
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Then you are in agreement with the popular trend to never agree or disagree with anything.unknown wrote:Never agree or disagree.
You are conditioned to take the position that other people are taking sides.You have been conditioned to take sides.
In that case your statements are limited. To what degree are your statements limited do you think?Humans are limited entity.