Nice People

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Pye
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:45 pm

Post by Pye »

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Leyla writes:
Hey, Pye, who was it that spent their lifetime looking for a moral man?
. . . cannot remember! *lol*

I've never met a masculine man, much less a moral one, at least as masculinity is described here . . . .

It's a myth, too.

Nevertheless, human qualities like strength and courage and truthfulness and passionate purpose and the like are worthy qualities for any human being to possess.

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Shardrol
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Location: New York, USA

Post by Shardrol »

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The way I remember it it was Diogenes & he was looking for an honest man.
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Leyla Shen
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Location: Flippen-well AUSTRALIA

Post by Leyla Shen »

Shardrol wrote:
The way I remember it it was Diogenes & he was looking for an honest man.
Yes, Diogenes. Thanks.

~

I don’t make a distinction between honesty and morality, really, since any form of "honesty" that does not have its root in being the right thing is actually dishonesty.

The fundamental dishonesty/immorality would be expressed as A=B.

If I mean by something a thing other than what you interpret, to ascertain honesty/morality I must then hold that the one who cannot clearly define the thing is dishonest. If that definition involves empirical uncertainty, then I am dishonest and therefore immoral to that degree.

Pure logic is a priori: this means that one does not need to experience, say, a completely (or even semi-) unconscious woman but one does have to abstract this idea in order to experience them.

Diogenes continues to search the streets in vain.

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Steven Coyle

Posting Can Become a Mirror

Post by Steven Coyle »

Diogenes never realized, that the only honest man he was looking for, was himself.

Being a dog (a cynic), he wanted someone to pal around with - hard to find in the ancient streets of narcissistic Greece.

He became a Zen Master (Meister), the way all do - by overcoming their own reflection in the moon.
brokenhead
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Post by brokenhead »

David Quinn wrote:
Men also quickly realize that what women are attracted to in men is their potential earning power, their social status, their willingness elbow people out the way and climb the greasy pole, their ability to create exciting and envious lifestyles, etc. The nice guys know this is the only way they will ever attract a mate, and so most of them plunge headlong into a life-long, mind-numbing, soul-destroying career. All because women are essentially attracted to what is evil in a man, and not what is good.
Waaaah! Women don’t go for nice guys because nice guys don’t make enough money! Waaaah! I say, fuck ‘em. Hint: there are all kinds of women out there. Try not to let shallow people into your heart. You can’t expect women to pretend money doesn’t matter. You can’t claim men built the world and then blame women for the fact that we have to live in it. Don’t get me wrong, brokenhead has had more than one broken heart over this very same thing, being dumped for a wealthier man, and it doesn’t get any easier. But I’ve learned not to expect more of a person than that person expects of him(her)self.
And it was always this way. Jesus didn't hook up, he would not serve two masters.
Can you say, "Give unto Caesar...?"
Lastly, I should point out that not every career is soul-destroying, but I thought that was obvious.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

BJ wrote:
When I think of "niceness," visions of plasticity and sycophants immediately come to mind. In my thinking, niceness is irrevocably linked to posing, to flattering another's vanity while affirming one's own. Whether it be flattering someone with a "nice" comment, or being "nice" enough to hold open a door and thereby affirm another's self-value. In my mind's eye, the letters in "nice" form a slick cheshire-like smile.

Kindness is far different. Kindness is sharing, kindness is giving, kindness is loving. One is only temporarily "being nice," one acts (acting being heavily rooted in vanity), or performs one of these actions, distinct from one's character.

The sages taught empathic kindness, which is a coming together of the grand indifference of Nature with the ultimate answer that is unconditioned Love.
That's pretty good.

In my opinion, fake niceness isn't very nice at all to either party. I had an interaction not long ago with someone who I detected was being fake nice. I tried to get some honesty out of the person (as I believe that honest interactions can be accomplished with civility and that civil honest interaction leads to optimal interactions) and discovered that she was, in fact, being fake - but then instead of clearly stating what was on her mind, she had some guy be rude to me for her and then he made a rather imprudent decision that was both unpleasant for me and detrimental to their company. Polite honesty would have been much nicer for everyone involved.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Broken wrote:
David Quinn wrote:
Quote:
Men also quickly realize that what women are attracted to in men is their potential earning power, their social status, their willingness elbow people out the way and climb the greasy pole, their ability to create exciting and envious lifestyles, etc. The nice guys know this is the only way they will ever attract a mate, and so most of them plunge headlong into a life-long, mind-numbing, soul-destroying career. All because women are essentially attracted to what is evil in a man, and not what is good.

Waaaah! Women don’t go for nice guys because nice guys don’t make enough money! Waaaah! I say, fuck ‘em. Hint: there are all kinds of women out there. Try not to let shallow people into your heart.
Sometimes men look for women who have money. Some men look for women who will cook for them, clean, wash their clothes, etc. Some men want a "trophy wife" to show off to their buddies as a "status symbol" and a lot of them want it all. Some men just want a sex partner and have so little self-confidence that they settle for whoever they think is "all they could get."

Either gender looks at the relationship from a WWIFM attitude (what's in it for me?) and there really isn't anything wrong with that as long as it's approached intelligently by both parties. If both people can contrubute something to the other person's life, then the union is a winning proposal fro both - whatever it is that whoever provides.

Whatever gender, sometimes they approach from the "nevermind" corner - some men don't want intelligent women because they are afraid she will make him look comparatively less intelligent, yet if "the little woman" is an idiot, he at least might think he looks more intelligent (although in more intelligent circles, he actually looks pretty dumb himself for choosing an idiot). Some women will turn down a man who does not have income potential, others will turn down a man who is physically abusive or disrespectful. Some men do nto want a woman who earns as much or more than they do because they do not feel superior when this happens, and what they really wanted was to feel superior. Most people of either gender will turn down someone with poor hygeine.

Some women will put up with abuse, and may be more likely to do so if the man has an income potential just as some men put up with abuse for any reason or no reason at all. Maybe he couldn't afford to take care of the kids without her help - is that any different? Or maybe he has gotten used to the income she brings in and he spends the majority of the money.

I believe that both genders, if they want someone at all, want someone who will be good to them in as many ways as possible. Either gender can also reach the conclusion that it is better to be alone than to be treated the way that some people treat others.
Leyla Shen
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Re: Posting Can Become a Mirror

Post by Leyla Shen »

Steven Coyle wrote:Diogenes never realized, that the only honest man he was looking for, was himself.

Being a dog (a cynic), he wanted someone to pal around with - hard to find in the ancient streets of narcissistic Greece.

He became a Zen Master (Meister), the way all do - by overcoming their own reflection in the moon.
[laughs]

Steven, I am going to be brutally honest, again.

It always scares me when you assume we are on the same wavelength and reply to a post of mine. I mean, I'm not really saying don't reply to my posts. What I am saying is that when you do, I have no idea why!

I don't think wanting someone to pal around with is the point of Diogenes, at all. To me, the point is simple: it is the implication that there is no such thing as an honest man.

I do agree, however, that if an individual has no idea what an honest man is, he will never find one. Now, Diogenes could well have been such a man, or he might well have been the only honest man.

What is an honest man, Steven?

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Steven Coyle

Re: Posting Can Become a Mirror

Post by Steven Coyle »

What is an honest man, Steven?
Someone who values their intelligence above all else.
Tharan
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Location: Seattle

Post by Tharan »

Why value that?
Steven Coyle

Post by Steven Coyle »

Tharan wrote:Why value that?
So you can answer your own questions.

[j/k]
Tharan
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Location: Seattle

Post by Tharan »

A merry-go-round!! :)

What if I have no questions?
Steven Coyle

Post by Steven Coyle »

What if I have no questions?
Then have some cake.
Elizabeth Isabelle
Posts: 3771
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:35 am

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Well, I have questions.
Cory Duchesne wrote:David said: woman give themselves sexually to assholes and the nice guys don't get sex, but instead get to be a shoulder to cry on.
I'm not even going to bother counting how many times in this thread someone asked "Do you think David thinks - " but why is this whole thread basically about what a celibate man thinks about how to get a woman to have sex? And why are so many people speaking for what they think David thinks rather than asking David?
sky
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:19 am

Post by sky »

I thought that by "nice" David meant something like "respectful". But when men learn that being respectful doesn't attract females, they give it away.
do you mean women give it away or that men waste their respect

because i know that if you don't treat me with respect you flat out don't exist

i like nice guys

i like smart nice guys

the best way to get my attention would be to be aware enough to grasp what i would like to accomplish and in some way large or small help me manifest my vision

but with no strings attached all you get is my presence in your life and my sincere appreciation

i used to be known for my niceness but then i learned about being a bit of a bitch got things to go my way and surprisingly not so many people even minded

though actually i have a very tender heart

but don't confuse kindness with weakness or sweetness for stupidity

remember the movie million dollar baby

the older man says to the young woman

'boxing is about respect

getting it for yourself and taking it away from the other guy'

but i think that gaining respect for yourself and inspiring respect in another

is better

that is how i would define nice

and yes there are people like that

and many of them have not a clue about philosophy or enlightenment

but they can afford to be nice
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