Women believe they are inferior

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Women are the more caring and less selfish of the two sexes. We all know that. Look at this, for example:

"Female vanity a protector of profits" - The Australian
Female vanity a protector of profits
Blair Speedy and Richard Kerbaj
September 29, 2005

RETAIL giant David Jones is confident that women's vanity will help maintain its profit growth this year as women continue to pamper themselves despite tighter family budgets.

David Jones's chief executive Mark McInnes said yesterday that his company was well placed to weather a downturn in consumer spending because the majority of its customers were women, who would cut back spending on their partners in order to maintain their own appearance.

"What tends to happen during periods of economic slowdown is that our core categories of womenswear, footwear, accessories and cosmetics continue to get year-on-year growth and women continue to spend for themselves," Mr McInnes said.

"Women reduce their spending on their partners and their homes in favour of themselves as they become a little tighter in their considerations."

And after announcing a 19 per cent increase in annual net profit for the previous financial year to $77.86 million, Mr McInnes said higher petrol prices would have "no impact" on the department store.

"We're certainly not seeing any noticeable impact on our business," he said.

Mr McInnes's theory on women was backed by shoppers yesterday. Wendy Carey did consider buying something for her husband while out shopping at the Melbourne DJs store in Bourke Street Mall but, in the end, she chose to spend $650 on herself instead.

"I bought myself two pairs of shoes and a dress," she said.

Despite restricted family budgets which have been partly brought about by escalating petrol prices, another shopper, Jane Hodgson, who was perusing the cosmetics collection on her lunch break, said women would not go without "necessities" such as make-up and perfume.

"You're still going to buy perfume, you're still going to buy stockings," said the mother of one.

"And with Melbourne Cup coming up, I've got to get a hat, got to get a dress. You know, those things you're still not going to go without."
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whocares
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Women believe they are inferior

Post by whocares »

Thank you for your lesson on the lesbian community, David. My, my, you get around don't you?

All generalisations, mate.

I envy your written skills, and although I like to think I have a sound knowledge of the English language, I aspire to develop my skills further.

I guess you have more time than I, given you don't work and spend all day "thinking".

I have met the most undesirable women imaginable (I mean mentally, not physically) and also the most undesirable men.

Seems to me, more and more women are going it alone as even they are "thinking" about the relevance and safety of relationships. How do you know what goes on in a woman's mind, any woman, just because she does not write it down?

You can never know another's thoughts.
whocares
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David Jones

Post by whocares »

Ahhhhhhhh David, another "Pick the most pathetic aspect of female behaviour and shove it on here like all woman are like that!"

Men/boys buy Computer games and have fun killing people on them, men obssess over footy games and just about kill each other over them, men bash women because they are too gutless to talk and cry..........

The generalisations go on and on.............
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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

David wrote:
Matt wrote:
So do you care about people, or what is it that motivates you to share truths with others?
On the emotional front, it's the desire to: share this hidden fantastic thing I have discovered; follow my conscience and do what is right; repay my debt to past sages for helping to enlighten me; live in a world where madness and irrationality are absent. Naturally, these desires are all egotistical and emotional in nature.

I don't know about this "caring for others" bit. That's far too abstract to be a real factor and always arises out of self-centered motives, in any case. "Caring for others" is essentially what people call their egotistical attachment to their loved ones - it glosses the attachment up and conceals the selfishness underlying it. In the case of Mother Teresa types, the phrase reverts back to its meaningless, abstract nature.

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Well, take the desire to share a fantastic thing with others. I think everybody wants to share fantastic with others, but why do we want to do this? Would you say it's the same phenomenon at play here for you as it as for other people? I call it "caring for others", but I don't know what else you could call it. Maybe we share things more for the entertainment value or something.

My grandma had a heart attack a few months ago and I was in the hospital watching her. I've never witnessed anyone die before. I wasn't real close to her, but I knew her. She was on life support and they told us that when they unhooked it that she was going to die, and I felt so sad that I almost wanted to cry. It's not that I was sad for her because she was really old and unproductive and her death was totally non-tragic. She wasn't in any pain or anything and she was even telling us jokes and stuff as she was lying there. But I was more saddened by the loss of her humanity, that we humans (CRAP :-) are finite and come to an end, I guess. What would you call that?
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Post by GrimNexus »

matt i hear what you're saying, just a flood

when i was little, i went to my aunt's funeral, and i laughed
haha,
it was all i could do, i didn't know what else to do, people looked at me strange like i was teh devil child or something,

but i get now why i laughed, it's all you can do
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Matt wrote:
DQ: On the emotional front, it's the desire to: share this hidden fantastic thing I have discovered; follow my conscience and do what is right; repay my debt to past sages for helping to enlighten me; live in a world where madness and irrationality are absent. Naturally, these desires are all egotistical and emotional in nature.

MG: Well, take the desire to share a fantastic thing with others. I think everybody wants to share fantastic with others, but why do we want to do this? Would you say it's the same phenomenon at play here for you as it as for other people?
Exactly the same.

I call it "caring for others", but I don't know what else you could call it. Maybe we share things more for the entertainment value or something.
I would call it the emotional pleasure of conquering new territory and absorbing it into one's ego - in this case, the minds of others. I'm not really talking about the evangelical desire to convert people here, although it is related. It's more the desire for people to discover what you have found and think highly of you for it.

My grandma had a heart attack a few months ago and I was in the hospital watching her. I've never witnessed anyone die before. I wasn't real close to her, but I knew her. She was on life support and they told us that when they unhooked it that she was going to die, and I felt so sad that I almost wanted to cry. It's not that I was sad for her because she was really old and unproductive and her death was totally non-tragic. She wasn't in any pain or anything and she was even telling us jokes and stuff as she was lying there. But I was more saddened by the loss of her humanity, that we humans (CRAP :-) are finite and come to an end, I guess. What would you call that?
Being sad over your own mortality. Despairing over an injustice imposed by Nature upon yourself .... and, er, everyone else.

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Post by David Quinn »

whocares wrote:
Thank you for your lesson on the lesbian community, David. My, my, you get around don't you?

All generalisations, mate.
That's true. I'm sure there are exceptions.

I envy your written skills, and although I like to think I have a sound knowledge of the English language, I aspire to develop my skills further.

I guess you have more time than I, given you don't work and spend all day "thinking".

That's your choice.

I have met the most undesirable women imaginable (I mean mentally, not physically) and also the most undesirable men.

Sure, both sexes have their fair share of blaggards. Some dogs can be really feral and unpleasant too.

Seems to me, more and more women are going it alone as even they are "thinking" about the relevance and safety of relationships. How do you know what goes on in a woman's mind, any woman, just because she does not write it down?

You can never know another's thoughts.

You can't know another's thoughts directly, I agree, but you can accurately deduce what a person believes and values, and how their minds operate in a general sense, from the way they present themselves to the world. In truth, we are always giving ourselves away to the discerning eye.

Women are not that hard to read once you realize they aren't coherent, unified creatures in the way that men are. Once you get over that hurdle they become quite easy to figure out. There's nothing mysterious about them.

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Post by David Quinn »

whocares wrote:
Ahhhhhhhh David, another "Pick the most pathetic aspect of female behaviour and shove it on here like all woman are like that!"

Men/boys buy Computer games and have fun killing people on them, men obssess over footy games and just about kill each other over them, men bash women because they are too gutless to talk and cry..........

The generalisations go on and on.............
Just because something is generalization doesn't mean it's wrong. Generalizations work because significant numbers of people fit into them. Creating generalizations is thus a valid method of highlighting realities in our society.

The truth is, most users of computer games are indeed male. It reflects the masculine desire to compete with others and conquer challenges. Likewise, the fact that most women are obsessed with their appearance and constantly spend money on beauty products, dresses, shoes, hairstyles, etc, reflects the truth that most women are very passive, insecure and narcissistic. These are genuine realities in our world. We can't pretend they're not there simply because there may be a few exceptions.

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TRUTH & ILLUSION

Post by Leyla Shen »

It's a bit of both. You can't submit to logic and truth, not consistently at least, without doing it in a conscious, thoughtful and willing fashion. And vice versa, you can't be fully conscious and thoughtful in your choices without being devoted to truth.
But which truth, David?

Insofar as absolutes go -- particularly emptiness -- we are talking about a state of existence that has absolutely no emotional attachment, aren't we?

Would a perfect Buddha not be able to engage or not engage in anything he so chooses without attachment.

I dunno, a life of habit seems highly -- dead, to me; wisdom or no wisdom. However, I'm guessing that's the whole point.
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Re: Caring for others.

Post by Matt Gregory »

Dan wrote:
Matt asked David whether he "cared" for other people. I think the answer to that - logical rather than emotional - is that yes, one cares for humanity's survival and sanity (to whatever degree that can be established) because consciousness is necessary for the propagation and survival of Wisdom. People matter in that sense. If you're a Courier by trade and you don't care for your vehicle you may as well look for another trade.
Well, I don't think it's too far out to say that anyone in any profession gets massively attached to their tools, but I take your point. What I was meaning to ask is how can you really tell if what you're doing (what you're caring about, where your concerns lie, and so forth) is for wisdom or is for an emotional attachment? Because it seems to me that there's no way to know for sure. We can observe ourselves, but we can't do this outside of our attachments as long as they are present. At least I don't think we can or see anyway to really be certain if we can or not. And if we can't observe unattached then we can't perceive the attachment.

Just to illustrate: surely everyone here has known someone with a deep attachment to something that you didn't share and it made you think they were really weird and creepy, but they didn't perceive this about themselves and there was no way to explain it to them in a way they could understand. It's the same principle at work.

Ok, you can all call yourselves "cat lady" now :-)
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Post by Matt Gregory »

David wrote:
Matt wrote:
Well, take the desire to share a fantastic thing with others. I think everybody wants to share fantastic with others, but why do we want to do this? ... I call it "caring for others", but I don't know what else you could call it. Maybe we share things more for the entertainment value or something.
I would call it the emotional pleasure of conquering new territory and absorbing it into one's ego - in this case, the minds of others. I'm not really talking about the evangelical desire to convert people here, although it is related. It's more the desire for people to discover what you have found and think highly of you for it.
There has to be more to it than that.

Matt: But I was more saddened by the loss of her humanity, that we humans are finite and come to an end, I guess. What would you call that?

David: Being sad over your own mortality. Despairing over an injustice imposed by Nature upon yourself .... and, er, everyone else.
Yeah, yeah, this "er" part...what would you call despairing over everyone else. If it's not "caring" then what is it? Just an evolutionary survival mechanism or something?
MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

"I ain't sayin' she's a gold digger
But she ain't messin' with no broke nigger.

She take my money
When I'm in need."

Good video.

A lot like women.

Faizi
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Post by David Quinn »

Matt,
DQ: I would call it the emotional pleasure of conquering new territory and absorbing it into one's ego - in this case, the minds of others. I'm not really talking about the evangelical desire to convert people here, although it is related. It's more the desire for people to discover what you have found and think highly of you for it.

MG: There has to be more to it than that.

It's one strand of the egotism that's involved, which, in turn, is merely one aspect of what motivates the (not-yet-perfect) spiritual man to promote wisdom in the world.

Matt: But I was more saddened by the loss of her humanity, that we humans are finite and come to an end, I guess. What would you call that?

David: Being sad over your own mortality. Despairing over an injustice imposed by Nature upon yourself .... and, er, everyone else.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, this "er" part...what would you call despairing over everyone else. If it's not "caring" then what is it? Just an evolutionary survival mechanism or something?

A subconscious attempt to end the guilt which arises from being exclusively concerned with oneself? Yet another selfish ploy on the part of the ego?

Or perhaps it's a case of seeing your own ego in everyone else during that moment, and you are merely continuing the same old despair over your own plight?

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Post by David Quinn »

Leyla wrote:
It's a bit of both. You can't submit to logic and truth, not consistently at least, without doing it in a conscious, thoughtful and willing fashion. And vice versa, you can't be fully conscious and thoughtful in your choices without being devoted to truth.

But which truth, David?
Absolute truth, of course. What other truth is there?

Insofar as absolutes go -- particularly emptiness -- we are talking about a state of existence that has absolutely no emotional attachment, aren't we?
That's right. Deep knowledge, full consciousness and no emotional attachment.

Would a perfect Buddha not be able to engage or not engage in anything he so chooses without attachment.
Whatever he decides to do, it is without attachment.

I dunno, a life of habit seems highly -- dead, to me; wisdom or no wisdom. However, I'm guessing that's the whole point.
I'm not advocating a life filled with entrenched, soul-deadening habits. I'm merely saying that we need to recognize that we are habitual creatures by nature and we need to work with that. Laying down good habits which can lead to a blossoming of wise consciousness is certainly a good thing. At least, I think so.

These good habits might include training the mind to be active, intuitive, and reflective each day; learning to meditate deeply; writing down your thoughts; confronting people's false beliefs and values; envisaging what it is like to lead a wise existence; keeping your mind fixed on emptiness; and so on.

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MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

I kind of find it difficult to believe that a perfectly detached being could do whatever. Would not a perfect being differentiate between things? It is possible for several sorts of beings to have sex with infants with no attachment whatsoever or to kill with no attachment whatsoever.

Would a perfect being have sex with infants or commit murder?

I don't think so. Yet, I think it is important to clarify detachment and judgment and compassion and pity.

I do not think that emotional detachment alone is wisdom.

Faizi
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Well, OK, I went too far with the "wisdom or no wisdom" thing.

And, I reckon, that would be the very difference between detachment and non-attachment.

I reckon I'll break reality up in this way:

Wisdom comes from compassion and knowledge -- and from that, apt judgment. In that way, one could be fully engaged with life without being emotionally attached, at the same time.

Could a fully enlightened being ever err?
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Post by GrimNexus »

sex with babies is tight.
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Post by Matt Gregory »

DavidQuinn000 wrote:Matt,
DQ: I would call it the emotional pleasure of conquering new territory and absorbing it into one's ego - in this case, the minds of others. I'm not really talking about the evangelical desire to convert people here, although it is related. It's more the desire for people to discover what you have found and think highly of you for it.

MG: There has to be more to it than that.

It's one strand of the egotism that's involved, which, in turn, is merely one aspect of what motivates the (not-yet-perfect) spiritual man to promote wisdom in the world.

Matt: But I was more saddened by the loss of her humanity, that we humans are finite and come to an end, I guess. What would you call that?

David: Being sad over your own mortality. Despairing over an injustice imposed by Nature upon yourself .... and, er, everyone else.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, this "er" part...what would you call despairing over everyone else. If it's not "caring" then what is it? Just an evolutionary survival mechanism or something?

A subconscious attempt to end the guilt which arises from being exclusively concerned with oneself? Yet another selfish ploy on the part of the ego?

Or perhaps it's a case of seeing your own ego in everyone else during that moment, and you are merely continuing the same old despair over your own plight?

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Well, I meant globally, if that makes any sense. What is it makes people "care" for other people when there is no clear advantage for doing so? I mean it's egotism, but is it ego projection or is it guilt or what do you think it is? I think it's some kind of subconscious, biological connection or something.
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Post by David Quinn »

It's just an extension of the need for people to subsume their own interests for the "common good". We have evolved to be part of a tribe, to function as efficient cogs within the tribe, to treat the whole tribe as though it was our own body. We have thus been genetically programmed to behave altruistically towards others within the tribe, at least to some degree. It's a competing force against our other more self-centered interests.

Since the health and well-being of the tribe depends very much on everyone pitching in and working for each other, there has evolved strong societal pressures to dissuade people from behaving in narrow, self-centered ways. This is why we instinctively feel guilt whenever we feel we are acting for ourselves alone at the expense of the common good. This guilt has been impregnated into us by every mother in the land, and then strengthened and reinforced by religion.

The roots of all criminal law are planted in this need to keep the tribe functioning healthily, as are the roots of all Christian morality.

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Societal Expectations

Post by Foresta Gump »

"This is why we instinctively feel guilt whenever we feel we are acting for ourselves alone at the expense of the common good"

Exactly!

But being a recluse I've overcome any feelings of guilt, accepting in my own mind that I am a recluse, thus freeing me from societal expectations. Others know basically that a recluse is one who ostracizes herself/himself away from the main stream of life, so basically nothing is really ever expected of a recluse, because a recluse has made it known by being a recluse that the recluse doesn't care to have expectations on her/him.

Being a recluse, does not imply inability to socialize. I have hob-nobbed with the most elite. It is simply my preference to remain uninterupted in my solitary confinement, but this doesn't always happen, as interuptions become my diversions in which I do need from time to time. So being a recluse I still need human interaction.

What you say above, this human tribe participaction, is exactly accurate. Just the way I see our conformist country as well.
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Post by David Quinn »

Leyla wrote:
Wisdom comes from compassion and knowledge -- and from that, apt judgment. In that way, one could be fully engaged with life without being emotionally attached, at the same time.
What is compassion, in your view?

Could a fully enlightened being ever err?
Not rationally. Not ethically. But he is vulnerable to reaching erroneous conclusions about empirical matters if he has false or incomplete data to work with. It doesn't matter how flawless one's thought-processes are, they can only work with what's available to them.

On the other hand, the fully enlightened person is fully aware of his vulnerability in this area and would never make the mistake of imagining he is certain of the empirical conclusions he reaches. So in a deeper sense, he never errs in the empirical realm either.

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Post by David Quinn »

Marsha Faizi wrote:
I kind of find it difficult to believe that a perfectly detached being could do whatever. Would not a perfect being differentiate between things? It is possible for several sorts of beings to have sex with infants with no attachment whatsoever or to kill with no attachment whatsoever.
A Buddha would easily be able to do these things without any attachment or personal emotional consequence.

On the other hand, it would be unlikely that he would do them as they would probably undermine the cause of wisdom, rather than serve it.

I do not think that emotional detachment alone is wisdom.
Wisdom is an integrated mix of emotional detachment (or more accurately, emotional non-existence), deep knowledge and an unshakeable commitment to the cause of wisdom. A person cannot become a Buddha, and abandon all emotional attachment, without being wholly focused on the importance of wisdom.

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Post by Leyla Shen »

What is compassion, in your view?
Well, I would have to say the recognition of the root cause of suffering (a lack in understanding emptiness) and the pursuant actions to alleviate suffering thereby, however they may be required to manifest.

Having sex with a baby, for instance, would have the opposite effect -- and probably get you fried.

So, it's pretty pointless either way to someone emotionally unattached.

Howzat?
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Post by David Quinn »

Do you practice compassion in your life?

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Post by David Quinn »

Here, in this article, women are blaming men, society and babies for their failure to produce significant works of art.

Everyone is to blame, it seems, apart from themselves. We dare not point the finger at women and hold them responsible. That would just be too politically incorrect. It would also conflict with our (i.e. society's) underlying view that women are inferior.

Women's works
Women's works
Christine Westwood
October 06, 2005

FOR the first time in its history, this year's Venice Biennale, the world's most important contemporary art forum, was headed by two female directors and its international jury awarded four out of the five Golden Lions to female artists.

Some would say this emphasis has been a long time coming. As exhibition posters by the Guerrilla Girls pointed out: "Of the 1238 artists on exhibition in major museums in Venice, fewer than 40 are women."

Of the artists included in Australia's Art Almanac for September, more than 60 per cent exhibiting solo or in small groups are men. Add the artists listed at leading investment galleries and the proportion rises to more than 70 per cent.

These figures are no surprise to Wendy Teakel, an artist and senior lecturer at the Australian National University.

"I've been teaching in an art school for about 20 years and I'm very aware of the demographics of who I teach, predominantly female," she says. "But when I've counted around at exhibitions the proportion is inverted. To quote two recent examples, a sculpture prize in Canberra and the Lempriere exhibition in Melbourne, only about a quarter of the artists were female."

Why do so many female art students fail to realise fully-fledged art careers? Teakel believes the first couple of years out of art school are make or break time.

"That's where women seem to come unstuck," she says. "Maybe it's when they have their first child or are simply trying to hold a home together."

Teakel's observations are backed by the statistics. It seems that, even in our post-feminist era, women are still spending more time than men on domestic and caretaking chores. According to research from the Sex Discrimination Commissioner, women in dual-income families undertake almost 13 hours of unpaid housework a day compared with 10.7 hours for men, as well as three hours to every two that their partners spend on care-giving activities.

It's worse in Europe. A time use survey by the Office for National Statistics in Britain in 2000 shows women there do double the hours of housework in dual-income families. And in Spain, the Centre for Sociological Investigation concludes that Spanish fathers spend an average 13 minutes a day looking after their children.

"Babies are the reason why the art world will always be like many other professions, predominantly a man's world," says South Australian painter Marnie Wark.
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