GENIUS FORUMS

-“Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!”

yes,I wonder when people actually going to apply that..
all facts are inconclusive.
Nietzsche said:there are no facts,only interpretations.

I have been giving alternatives too.
namely,our question should not be true or not,but..is it a means of expression.cause Empiricism awakes connation as I have explained in the topic "Empirical genius".

it is also the reason why scientists keeping alive the notion "the blind lead the blind".
although from the 60's on,with Neumann and Bohr things have slightly changed.
they still keep 'hitting' byproducts.

bert wrote:

all facts are inconclusive.
Nietzsche said:there are no facts,only interpretations.

Nietzsche was lying.

A person who knows how to interpret truthfully can easily discern what is factual in the world and what isn't.

I have been giving alternatives too.
namely,our question should not be true or not,but..is it a means of expression.cause Empiricism awakes connation as I have explained in the topic "Empirical genius".

it is also the reason why scientists keeping alive the notion "the blind lead the blind".
although from the 60's on,with Neumann and Bohr things have slightly changed.
they still keep 'hitting' byproducts.

Here you are presenting things as though they were fact. You don't even believe in your own philosophy, you hypocrite.

-

Faust wrote:

Does great intelligence hinder the chance for happiness? Is the lot of the greater mass of intellects perpetual despair at everything in the external world?

Most intellectuals are unhappy because they don't push their thinking all the way and, as a result, they don't break through into ultimate understanding. They are either too cowardly or lack the desire to do so. As a result, they end up going around and around in circles with their thinking and never really get anywhere.

They are like ghosts caught between two worlds - on the one hand, they are far too knowledgeable and aware to enjoy the naive pleasures of ignorance/childhood, and yet, at the same time, they are nowhere near aware enough to enjoy the pleasures of wisdom. And so they suffer uselessly in the murky nether-regions inbetween.

It's a bit like crossing a busy street. If you are only prepared to dither and make a few tentative steps, you are surely going to get run over. The lucky ones stride quickly to the other side.

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all facts are inconclusive.
Nietzsche said:there are no facts,only interpretations.

Nietzsche was lying.

A person who knows how to interpret truthfully can easily discern what is factual in the world and what isn't.

Nietzsche was able to do this.

I think you've overstepped his intent.

He is pointing to the essence of wisdom.

To emptiness!

Here you are presenting things as though they were fact. You don't even believe in your own philosophy, you hypocrite.

you know not my understanding.

I said all facts are inconclusive.

some integers must come to a 'fact as factual'(Knowledge,math)
everything is essential to truth because everything is true(fact and fiction) as it is formable as infinite relatability.
facts are correlative of truth.

who knoweth the extent of Ego?

Faust wrote:

I myself absolutely would trade places with Homer Simpson's life, any day. Is ignorance bliss?, surely Homer Simpson is a fictional testament to this relative truth.

We aren’t seeing the entire picture with Homer, the writers present us with a very fluffy view so allow me to clarify. Homer’s stupidity is the cause of his suffering. He may enjoy the base desires excessively, but his contradictions, limited opinions, and naïve worldview would make him an excessively angry person due to the limitation of his own mind.

I would not like to be an angry person, that is hell.

And then there is the continuous humiliation he would feel upon the rare moments when he perceives just how limited he is.

And if he never did change or learn then the humiliation would keep on coming.

That is hell, being an angry person who frequently is humiliated by people more clever and sorrow is what would probably drive Homer to escape his limited mind through excessively indulge in food, alcohol, etc…

Homer is quite tragic really and I would definitely not want to trade places with man born into such an unforunate circumstance littered with plight.

Like a moth which repeatedly hurtles into the flame and wonders why it keeps getting burnt .....

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bert wrote:

DQ: Here you are presenting things as though they were fact. You don't even believe in your own philosophy, you hypocrite.

B: you know not my understanding.

On the contrary, it is depressingly familiar.

I said all facts are inconclusive.

But not this one, I presume?

some integers must come to a 'fact as factual'(Knowledge,math)
everything is essential to truth because everything is true(fact and fiction) as it is formable as infinite relatability.

Is this another conclusive fact, or should we be dismissing it as well?

How many other conclusive facts do you have? I bet you have hundreds of them tucked away inside you there.

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cosmic_prostitute wrote:We aren’t seeing the entire picture with Homer, the writers present us with a very fluffy view so allow me to clarify. Homer’s stupidity is the cause of his suffering. He may enjoy the base desires excessively, but his contradictions, limited opinions, and naïve worldview would make him an excessively angry person due to the limitation of his own mind.

This was a lot clearer during the first season (and earlier, on the Tracey Ullman Show), when Homer was somewhat less stupid and a lot more violent. Homer grabbing Bart around the neck and choking him was a running gag. Bart's eyes and tongue would bulge out of his head.

His character was toned down quite a bit as time went on, so that he became more of a lovable idiot; he started out as a more violent, dysfunctional, malevolent character. In the early show, the entire family was more obviously dysfunctional and miserable; they all hated each other and enjoyed nothing more than torturing each other.

As time went on, the violence was moved another step back, mostly put into the insanely hyper-violent Itchy and Scratchy cartoon - Bart and Lisa would laugh their heads off watching that. I guess that's more acceptable in the mainstream - moving the violence to a more abstract cartoon-within-a-cartoon level, rather than the blatant child abuse of the very early show.

I haven't watched the show in years, as it seemed to wear itself out after a while.

On the contrary, it is depressingly familiar.

ok,what is my understanding...

Quote:
I said all facts are inconclusive.

But not this one, I presume?

damn,are you that idiotic.I said ALL

Quote:
some integers must come to a 'fact as factual'(Knowledge,math)
everything is essential to truth because everything is true(fact and fiction) as it is formable as infinite relatability.

Is this another conclusive fact, or should we be dismissing it as well?

it doesn't have to be dismissed,and yes it is inconclusive.funny isn't it.

How many other conclusive facts do you have? I bet you have hundreds of them tucked away inside you there

DavidQuinn000 wrote:They are like ghosts caught between two worlds - on the one hand, they are far too knowledgeable and aware to enjoy the naive pleasures of ignorance/childhood, and yet, at the same time, they are nowhere near aware enough to enjoy the pleasures of wisdom. And so they suffer uselessly in the murky nether-regions inbetween.

There is pleasure in wisdom now? In your version of wisdom, isn't pleasure a byproduct of ego, and ego and wisdom mutually exclusive?

The whole trouble is that Homer simpson is a fictional character.
These characters do not have to live in the real world, the authors manipulates their world to give them maximum leverage. For example imagine another human character like Batman. In the real world the laws of probability would dictate that he would be dead or mutilated by now. In the real world Homers wife would have left him long ago. His kids would be grown ups and resent him for being a failure as a father. All his transgressions with the law would have landed him in prison and ruined his career.

Also in my opinion Ignorance is bliss is meant for the following hypothetical situation such as if you have AIDS and you do not know it, then life is bliss as compared to when the knowledge is revealed to you. Not if you are a complete intellectual misfit as Homer.

Dhodges wrote:

His character was toned down quite a bit as time went on, so that he became more of a lovable idiot;

Yes, I think this is the problem with comedy is that lacks intense seriousness. Shows such as the Simpsons and Jackass have created a “stupidly morality” with the youth that is widespread and worshipped as religion.

There are so many examples of incomplete works of art that have romanticized stupidity. And this is dangerous material for the immature mind.

Think of phenomenons such as Adam Sandler, The Clerks Movies, Simpsons, Family Guy and countless others.

And this “stupidity morality” that seems to have swept over the western world has become the new drug.

People are terrified of seriousness because so much sensual gratification is derived from the world’s stupidity, they are terrified of a complete ending of stupidity.

Moreover the clever ones have created shows to emulate stupidity as a means to earn money so their entire livihood is based on the continuence of stupidy.

Think of the Daily Show and the Cobert Report, they mostly mock the stupid behavior of George Bush and others, this is why you will never see an incredibly serious philosopher on those shows because their entire living will be threatened.

Wisdom is bad for business. People generally do not like the word sustainable or minimalism.

bert wrote:

DQ: On the contrary, it is depressingly familiar.

B: ok,what is my understanding...

Conventional postmodernism - nothing can be known with certainty, ultimate knowledge is impossible, everything is relative, everything is uncertain, all facts are inconclusive, reality is subjective, etc.

DQ: I said all facts are inconclusive.

B: But not this one, I presume?

damn,are you that idiotic.I said ALL

If the statement that "all facts are inconclusive" is itself inconclusive, then why are you presenting it to this forum as though it were conclusive?

You can't have it both ways. Either stick to the belief that all facts are inconclusive and cease making authoritative statements on any subject at all. Or abandon this ridiculous self-contradictory postmodermist posturing and start taking responsibility for your own thoughts again.

B: some integers must come to a 'fact as factual'(Knowledge,math)
everything is essential to truth because everything is true(fact and fiction) as it is formable as infinite relatability.

DQ: Is this another conclusive fact, or should we be dismissing it as well?

B: it doesn't have to be dismissed,and yes it is inconclusive.funny isn't it.

This is a high-quality philosophy forum and its standards are very high. So, here at least, it will be dismissed.

Consider it from our position. If you don't even know whether what you are saying is true, if you can't be bothered ascertaining in your own mind the validity of your own words, then why should you expect anyone else to take an interest in them?

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[edited for grammatical correction - DQ]

Jason wrote:

DQ: They are like ghosts caught between two worlds - on the one hand, they are far too knowledgeable and aware to enjoy the naive pleasures of ignorance/childhood, and yet, at the same time, they are nowhere near aware enough to enjoy the pleasures of wisdom. And so they suffer uselessly in the murky nether-regions inbetween.

J: There is pleasure in wisdom now? In your version of wisdom, isn't pleasure a byproduct of ego, and ego and wisdom mutually exclusive?

Until an enlightened person becomes perfect, he will always have some ego and thus he will always have opportunities to enjoy his wisdom. He can enjoy the simplicity and freedom of God from an egotistical standpoint, and the endless insights generated by God. His life tends to be one of oscillating between states of egotism and enlightenment, and the transition from egotism to enlightenment is always an enjoyable one.

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DHodges wrote about The Simpsons show:

This was a lot clearer during the first season (and earlier, on the Tracey Ullman Show), when Homer was somewhat less stupid and a lot more violent. Homer grabbing Bart around the neck and choking him was a running gag. Bart's eyes and tongue would bulge out of his head.

His character was toned down quite a bit as time went on, so that he became more of a lovable idiot; he started out as a more violent, dysfunctional, malevolent character. In the early show, the entire family was more obviously dysfunctional and miserable; they all hated each other and enjoyed nothing more than torturing each other.

As time went on, the violence was moved another step back, mostly put into the insanely hyper-violent Itchy and Scratchy cartoon - Bart and Lisa would laugh their heads off watching that. I guess that's more acceptable in the mainstream - moving the violence to a more abstract cartoon-within-a-cartoon level, rather than the blatant child abuse of the very early show.

Yes, people like their comedies ‘black’, but not too black – as they can usually only take so much of being reminded of their own inconsistent and violent natures.

People are happy enough to laugh at Homer drinking beer, eating junk food, yelling at the kids, and exposing his ignorance on every subject imaginable; just as long as they’re not confronted with having to deal directly with the deep sadness and pain causing Homer to act that way. Homer too, wouldn't want it any other way.

Homer’s an ‘everyman’. He has a very similar life to most of the people watching him: he’s a family man, has a job he hates, pays his bills and taxes, and enjoys drinking with his buddies. He also shares the same values as most of his viewers: wanting to be loved, and love; wanting his kids to grow up to have a better life than he did; and not having to concerned himself with much more than those two things. He basically says in every episode – stuff thinking about anything, just grab as much pleasure and happiness you can before you die. This is why The Simpsons is such a hit – he’s saying what most people feel.

Because of this, the writers of The Simpsons can be considered the chroniclers of the 'Age of Homers', as Homer Simpson’s documented life is but one example of an age comprising of hardly anyone else but Homers.

-
Sue

Faust wrote:

I myself absolutely would trade places with Homer Simpson's life, any day. Is ignorance bliss?, surely Homer Simpson is a fictional testament to this relative truth.

In what way are you not already a ‘Homer’?

-
Sue

Ankit Gupta wrote:

Also in my opinion Ignorance is bliss is meant for the following hypothetical situation such as if you have AIDS and you do not know it, then life is bliss as compared to when the knowledge is revealed to you. Not if you are a complete intellectual misfit as Homer.

Living life, without understanding what life really is – must be considered ‘blissful ignorance’, because as we know, "the majority rules", and they have ruled that life is anything they want it to be - depending on what they want.

A person with half a brain can see that what most people call ‘living’, is really just a putrid mess that their emotions seep out. And that this mess shapes every aspect of society. Not that most people give a damn. They're too busy praising and congratulating each other for ignoring the huge inconsistencies and irrationalities they decadently indulge in every moment of everyday.

Love and hate, compassion and cruelty – these pus-filled boils and weeping sores are just a small sample of the illnesses that engulf the mob. And pressed together, down in their dark, dank pit - they rub against each other, scratching and biting to ensure that they all remain infected.

-
Sue

Quote:
DQ: On the contrary, it is depressingly familiar.

B: ok,what is my understanding...


Conventional postmodernism - nothing can be known with certainty, ultimate knowledge is impossible, everything is relative, everything is uncertain, all facts are inconclusive, reality is subjective, etc.

-there are things that can be known with certainty
-there at least is the potential to know ultimately all things
-we are not in the position to say if things are relative or not
-we can not say if things are uncertain.we can only explain when it becomes uncertain
-yes all facts are inconclusive (there are also integers like Knowledge and Math)
-reality and non-reality is a combination of something actual and mental,therefore accept everything as a potentiality of a reality

it seems you don't know my understanding.

cosmic_prostitute wrote:

Yes, I think this is the problem with comedy is that lacks intense seriousness. Shows such as the Simpsons and Jackass have created a “stupidly morality” with the youth that is widespread and worshipped as religion.

The youth of today don’t need to turn the TV on to see stupidity – all they need do is look at their parent’s lives.

Mum and Dad – supposed to be examples of what it means to be a grown up - but all their children see is over grown versions of themselves. Like them, mum and dad fill every waking moment with drugs to bring them up, and bring them down. Also like them, they ache for pleasure, and despise boredom. They play with similar toys: clothes, shoes, computers, music, TV, films, cars, money, friends, love, alcohol and other recreational drugs, sex, gossip and one-upmanship. They see that their parents equal them in their selfishness and violence, and often outdo them in their inconsistencies and irrationalities.

Yes, these middle-aged people, who still crave physical and emotional pleasure, and continue to measure their success by the things they own; show that their consciousness hasn’t grown one iota in all their years on the planet.

What else could be more stupid and scary for young people to witness? Stupid - because growing up should signify something more meaningful. Scary - because the young people see that what lies ahead is just a repetition of what came before.

No wonder kids have to fill their minds with wilder and wackier distractions – they’re trying hard not to feel the aching despair that comes with each new birthday.

-
Sue

Sue wrote:

No wonder kids have to fill their minds with wilder and wackier distractions – they’re trying hard not to feel the aching despair that comes with each new birthday.

Yes, I agree Sue. There is something dreadfully depressing about humans who indulge in organized fun. I still have to participate in these events organized by my silly childish-like parents.

My conditioning was horribly conventional and traditional. My mother still attempts to bake sweets for me using refined white sugar even though I have told her repeatedly that that the substances she cooks with are toxic to this body.

The hypersensitive humans seem weaker, however the fact is that this genome is less tainted with maladaptations.

Sue wrote:

all they need do is look at their parent’s lives.

Very intelligent Sue, I need to stop cutting up you and Shen for no reason, Jesus Christ I need to get over this hatred of women I have, quick Sue, will you marry me? Just kidding…

The tragedy is when the son is wiser than the father and the father is so ignorant that he is not even aware.

My father still tries to mold me according to his will and he does so with pride. And I will deflate his entire worldview with one tiny fact which will send him into an angry outburst. I try to keep things superficial with him these days, there is absolutely no point.

>90 of the population is too weak to receive truth.

bert wrote:

-there are things that can be known with certainty
-there at least is the potential to know ultimately all things
-we are not in the position to say if things are relative or not
-we can not say if things are uncertain.we can only explain when it becomes uncertain
-yes all facts are inconclusive (there are also integers like Knowledge and Math)
-reality and non-reality is a combination of something actual and mental,therefore accept everything as a potentiality of a reality

it seems you don't know my understanding.

That is only because your thinking is inconsistent and full of contradictions. You're not being faithful to the postmodernist heart which beats inside you.

For example, you say:

there are things that can be known with certainty

How can this be so if all facts are inconclusive? On what basis do you imagine a person might reach certainty in the absence of conclusive facts?

Another example:

-we can not say if things are uncertain.

If it is truly the case that all facts are inconclusive, then the inescapable conclusion is indeed that everything is uncertain. No other conclusion is possible.

Because of inconsistencies such as these, which are very serious, your thinking is incoherent and lacks meaning.

-

Of course ignorance is bliss. Homer is much happier than Lisa who has very sad eyes. She is intelligent. Much of my life I have actually PRAYED to be as stupid as those around me who believe things like Osama Ben Ladin organized the 911 attack on the World Trade Center. Anyone with half a brain can plainly see that it was an inside job. Stuff like that. It began to drive me insane because I could see the truth behind things. People could not con and lie to me. I could find the truth to whatever I wanted to know. It led to deep deep misery and loneliness......

Then I turned that great light on myself and saw that I was utterly full of shit. I wondered about killing myself because I was just another Hitler like everyone else. I felt like a vampire living in a cave. A very miserable creature. I saw pain and lies in every direction. This ego had to go. And so, intelligence is pain. And pain leads to more pain. Eventually you are impelled to go beyond ego or die.

The great Shankara once said: "To the wise man, all is pain."

But if you could actually have no other need than some beer and hotdogs and sex - while at the same time thinking your government cares about you and you will go to live with Jesus when you die - it wouldn't be a bad existence.

Those of you who have some intelligence will find pain in your future. One of the disciples once asked Jesus if he could sit on his right hand in the Kingdom of God. Jesus said, "Are you willing to be baptized with the same baptism as the Son of Man?" You see, you must pay your dues.

But if you could actually have no other need than some beer and hotdogs and sex - while at the same time thinking your government cares about you and you will go to live with Jesus when you die - it wouldn't be a bad existence.

Yes but it would only be that, an existence. A blip in this measured thing called Time. It would have no frame of reference. Do average people spend a moments thought as to how and why it is they do what they do? What drives them?

prince wrote:

But if you could actually have no other need than some beer and hotdogs and sex - while at the same time thinking your government cares about you and you will go to live with Jesus when you die - it wouldn't be a bad existence.

Yes but it would only be that, an existence. A blip in this measured thing called Time. It would have no frame of reference. Do average people spend a moments thought as to how and why it is they do what they do? What drives them?

But when the ultimate pinnacle of "genius" is the realization that things are what they are, what's the difference? I think most of us are elitists, who must believe we're deeper than everyone else, because our lives are so emotionally unsatifsying. Basically, we're assholes. Including me.