Revenge

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Revenge

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

In another thread
HUNTEDvsINVIS wrote:I will let this thing go, i will grin and bear it, just to save my academic career from further controversy. However, I know my lecturer is a feminist lesbian, and I have fantasies about making a porn movie of myself, holding up banners of "yay for male dominance" and "lesbians might be biological errors" whilst in the act, whilst there is a lone lesbian in chains sitting on a chair and watching. Then I could post her this video, with a big fat title of "THIS IS ONLY ART AND I ONLY HATE LESBIANS FOR FUN". No, I won't make this revenge video, maybe when I have graduated...

Perfect Revenge, and it's just art. If people disrespect religious and moral codes, I can do that, too. I can make anti-lesbian art if I want to.
(the question about the aggressive attitude regarding lesbians is in the other thread)

Although in part this addresses HvI's post, it is also in general about revenge.

Revenge is never a wise choice. Whether someone sees something wrong, is wronged or just feels wronged, there are good, bad, and grey areas on how to respond to that. The good and the grey are all designed with the primary intent of truly being instructed, whereas although a person with a bad intent may state "I'll teach her a lesson," the primary intent is not "teaching" but inflicting emotional hurt. People do not learn their best when they are in emotional pain, and are usually at least tempted to return the revenge. It reminds me of a line in a book I'm reading about bullies: "It all started when he hit me back."

As Cory said in another thread (paraphrased), people like to make things even. Sometimes this can be accomplished (if all parties have some stake in reason) by discussing the matter rationally. Seeing what the other person's perspective is while sharing one's own perspective in a manner that the other person is receptive to can bring everyone equal by everyone going up a notch. Since this is the solution that provides the best outcome, it should be tried first.

If that does not work, and the issue is important enough, legal force can be turned to (I specifically chose the word "legal" rather than "ethical" because people who are considering revenge are not in a mind-set conducive to a proper perception of ethics). What I am thinking of here is going to a higher authority over the matter. Depending on the issue and the severity, there may be more levels up the chain of command, and it is usually most appropriate to work one's way up the chain of command one step at a time. If that does not work, and the issue is important enough to persue further, there are a progression of more forceful steps that can be taken. Here, I am thinking of when countries go to war.

The problem with the further down the chain from good ways to handle it to bad ways to handle it is that if people don't get it by the time you're three-forths the way down the chain, they are probably too intellectually challenged to get it at all. Also, the further down the chain, the more likely they are going to want to take revenge for your revenge. This is how gang wars usually happen and you just have people shooting people because their people got shot, and "getting even" doesn't happen until everyone is dead (often called "the ultimate equalizer").

It is best if everyone gets equalized by everyone taking a step up, but each step down the chain, one must both ask "is it worth it?" and "is this other person ever going to get it?"

Ironically, the more one respects the other person or the position of the other person, the further down the chain one is willing/driven to go. If the "opponent" was truly diagnosably profoundly retarded, the things she'd say or do might still get on one's nerves, but there is only so much that one will try to teach a retarded person.

Revenge is not a teaching tool. Revenge is just an emotional outburst and it shows as much immaturity as a temper tantrum.

Hunted, I know you said you won't really do it, but even fantasizing about revenge is not a sign of wisdom.
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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Sign of wisdom...haha. Are we trying to seem wise to eachother now?
- Scott
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Well, it's better than seeming stupid to each other.
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Shahrazad
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Post by Shahrazad »

Scott has a good point. I'm not interested in seeming wise to anybody. That would be pure vanity. For example, I come here to learn, and could not care less about how unwise or stupid I come across to everybody else. None of them pay my bills anyhow.

That they are deluded enough to get a cheap thrill out of feeling that they are a better person than me, would say more about them than about me.

All of us have unwise moments.

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

There is a difference between just trying to seem wise to others and actually being in persuit of wisdom. Seeming wise is a natural byproduct of having a good measure of wisdom. The goal of this board is to promote wisdom, and it is intended for people who seek wisdom. When someone here states something that seems unwise, it is the duty of the board to point that out and point the person to the path.

I assure you, I did not get any kind of "cheap thrill" out of pointing out that revenge is bad. Do you think that revenge is a good idea?
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Shahrazad
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Post by Shahrazad »

I only think it's a good idea when I'm in an irrational state of mind, usually induced by clinical depression.

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Do you think that someone fantasizing about revenge is in a rational state of mind?
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Shahrazad
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Post by Shahrazad »

He could be. Most people have fantasies and don't carry them out.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Just because most people do something does not mean that it reflects rational thinking.

The goal here is to have the best possible (meaning, most rational) thinking possible.

I contend that even fantasizing about revenge is irrational. Actually, fantasizing about revenge is even more irrational than the act of revenge, because an act of revenge can be done without thinking about it. If one thinks about revenge and develops a fantasy about it, that reflects irrational thinking.
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Shahrazad
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Post by Shahrazad »

I see fantasies as an innocent thing. It is only when you believe a fantasy that you are deluded.
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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

One is one's thoughts. If one feeds one's self with foolish, vengeful thoughts, one becomes foolish and vengeful. Although a particular fantasy of revenge may not be carried out, the thoughts poison the mind of the individual, causing behaviors - even if only subliminal attitudes - that are foolish and vengeful. Especially "in person" as opposed to the telephone, or even more impersonally on the internet, people can pick up on what a person's attitudes are. They then react to the attitudes as much or more than to the dry content of their interaction. Even more importantly, foolish and vengeful attitudes, even if one thinks they have been put out of one's mind, can invisibly block one's perception of reality.
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Katy
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Post by Katy »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Actually, fantasizing about revenge is even more irrational than the act of revenge, because an act of revenge can be done without thinking about it. If one thinks about revenge and develops a fantasy about it, that reflects irrational thinking.
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The ability to think about revenge and not do it is significantly more conscious, and rational than actually following through. For one thing it demonstrates that one is thinking rather than simply acting on emotions. Further, acting on vengeful thoughts has never ever made things better. Childish emotional outbursts, and tantrums only serve to make the other people angry and you get into a viscious circle. Plus, since what you do for revenge isn't often in proportion to the "crime" against you, the circle keeps getting bigger.

If one assumes that you want to minimize drama and conflict in your life, taking revenge is a highly irrational action that can only acheive the exact opposite.
-Katy
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Dan Rowden
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Post by Dan Rowden »

That's all certainly true. But I also agree with Elizabeth that fantasizing about revenge is the product of an irrational and egotistical mind. Just the fact that your mind goes there at all demonstrates this. However, in practical terms and unenacted fantasy is certainly better than an enacted on.
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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

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Dan Rowden
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Post by Dan Rowden »

Matt Gregory wrote:Love thy neighbor!
I hope you don't expect me to actually read that :)
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Katy
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Post by Katy »

Dan Rowden wrote:That's all certainly true. But I also agree with Elizabeth that fantasizing about revenge is the product of an irrational and egotistical mind. Just the fact that your mind goes there at all demonstrates this. However, in practical terms and unenacted fantasy is certainly better than an enacted on.
Well, yeah, I was commenting on her comparison. We can't all be perfect. :)
-Katy
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Dan Rowden
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Post by Dan Rowden »

Well, Elizabeth's point: "[...]fantasizing about revenge is even more irrational than the act of revenge, because an act of revenge can be done without thinking about it" probably needs a bit of qualifying in that I'd say it's only so where the revenge is automatic, in the moment, driven by passion. If there's any interceding time then it's being thought about.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

That's actually what I meant - like if someone just says or does something automatically or reflexively in response to something said or done to them.
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Katy
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Post by Katy »

Dan Rowden wrote:Well, Elizabeth's point: "[...]fantasizing about revenge is even more irrational than the act of revenge, because an act of revenge can be done without thinking about it" probably needs a bit of qualifying in that I'd say it's only so where the revenge is automatic, in the moment, driven by passion. If there's any interceding time then it's being thought about.
So acting without any thought is more rational than thinking about (but preventing yourself from doing) something?
-Katy
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Neither are rational. It is just that one is without any thought at all, whereas the other is with thought, but it is irrational thought.
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Dan Rowden
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Post by Dan Rowden »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:That's actually what I meant - like if someone just says or does something automatically or reflexively in response to something said or done to them.
Ok, well that makes sense too.
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Dan Rowden
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Post by Dan Rowden »

Katy wrote:
Dan Rowden wrote:Well, Elizabeth's point: "[...]fantasizing about revenge is even more irrational than the act of revenge, because an act of revenge can be done without thinking about it" probably needs a bit of qualifying in that I'd say it's only so where the revenge is automatic, in the moment, driven by passion. If there's any interceding time then it's being thought about.
So acting without any thought is more rational than thinking about (but preventing yourself from doing) something?
As Elizabeth said, it's just the distinction between there being thought present and not, which is a far less significant point than that of fantasizing about revenge but not acting on it still being highly irrational behaviour.

Like, my wanting to exact revenge on this spell check for underlining all the words I spell in a non-American form is highly irrational. Or, maybe not.....
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Tomas
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Re:

Post by Tomas »

\\


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-every body's-everything

"sschaula"]Sign of wisdom...haha. Are we trying to seem wise to each other now?[/quote]



you know, been busted fer sooooooo lung


en-joy yer stint in Uruk







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tomas (the tank)

VietNam veteran - 1971






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Last edited by Tomas on Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Carl G
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Re: Revenge

Post by Carl G »

Tomas,

Your letter and line spacings and hieroglyphs make me think you are from another time and/or place. Is Earth your real home?
Good Citizen Carl
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