GENIUS FORUMS

Suffering is clearly what has caused the greatest advancement of the human race to date. Now we want to end all suffering and settle down in a state of mediocrity, or, as Nietzsche puts it in the quote below, the herd wants "universal green-pasture happiness".

The problem here is that happiness and suffering are part in parcel -- without one you cannot have the other. We set a goal, we suffer through it, and we are elated when we succeed. This is how men accomplish things. When men settle down and strive (suffer) no more, they accomplish no more and don't experience the happiness that comes as a result of it.

What we are instead aiming towards is contentment. The stagnant universal pasture where the cows are all content, perfectly safe, live long lives and do not evolve any further or experience any real suffering or happiness! All the cows may understand the nature of reality, but none of them participate in it other than eating grass all day which is required to survive; if they did they would suffer!

Beyond Good and Evil, 44 wrote:To put the matter briefly and seriously, they belong with the levellers, these falsely named "free spirits"—as eloquent and prolific writers, slaves of democratic taste and its "modern ideas": collectively people without solitude, coarse brave lads whose courage or respectable decency should not be denied. But they are unfree and ridiculously superficial—above all with their basic tendency to see in the forms of old societies up to now the cause for almost every human misery and failure, a process which turns the truth happily on its head!

What they would like to strive for with all their powers is the universal green-pasture happiness of the herd, with security, absence of danger, comfort, an easing of life for everyone. The two songs and doctrines they sing most frequently are called "Equality of Rights" and "compassion for all things that suffer"—and they assume that suffering itself is something that we must do away with.

We who are their opposites, we who have opened our eyes and conscience for the question where and how up to now the plant "Man" has grown most powerfully to a height, we think that this has happened every time under the opposite conditions, that for that to happen the danger of his situation first had to grow enormously, his power of invention and pretence (his "spirit") had to develop under lengthy pressure and compulsion into something refined and audacious, his will for living had to intensify all the way into an unconditional will for power.

We think that hardness, violence, slavery, danger in the alleys and in the hearts, seclusion, stoicism, the art of attempting, and devilry of every kind, that everything evil, fearful, tyrannical, predatory, snake-like in human beings serves well for the ennobling of the species "Man," as much as its opposite does. In fact, when we say only this much we have not said enough, and we find ourselves at any rate with our speaking and silence at a point at the other end of all modern ideology and things desired by the herd, perhaps as their exact opposites? Is it any wonder that we "free spirits" are not the most talkative spirits? That we do not want to give away every detail of what a spirit can free itself from and in what direction it may then perhaps be driven?

Why do we want to end all suffering? Are we so cowardice that we would rather settle down immediately with contentment so we don't have to take risks, and at the same time don't experience the happiness with overcoming suffering and the advancement of humanity that comes along with suffering? What is our real goal in life? In today's society it appears to be _to_not_suffer_.

Nietzsche particularly criticizes Christianity, Jesus, and democracy for this attitude, but this forum is also teaching it. Here are the four apparently noble truths from Buddhism...

Four Noble Truths wrote:1. Life means suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

The teaching here is indifference, and it is the same to what this forum is teaching. You decide that since the origin of suffering is attachment and suffering is undesirable, we should drop all attachment and drop out of life -- that way it is impossible to suffer!

The spreading of wisdom that you participate in is quite simply for the goal of spreading non-attachment to try and reach the universal green-pastures where the whole herd is equal, content, stagnated and purposeless.

Imagine if Jesus succeeded. We will all agree that true Christianity is definitely not what Christianity is in the world today, but instead Jesus was the only true Christian; Christians are supposed to abandon all worldly attachments. Some people have called true Christianity suffering, but in reality if Jesus succeeded, or if you guys succeeded, there would be no suffering at all! In a way Jesus succeeded in leading to democracy which also wants to eliminate all suffering.

That's not to say that Jesus or you didn't/don't suffer, because he did suffer, only to a contradictory end: suffering to promote the end of suffering; becoming big to promote smallness.

stoicism is for preventing suffering

Faust13 wrote:stoicism is for preventing suffering

wikipedia wrote:Stoicism teaches the development of self-control, fortitude and detachment from distracting emotions...

Sounds similar to calling emotions delusional and teaching detachment from all values. (If you value nothing you can't get hurt!)

Is there something mutually exclusive with understanding life and participating in it, or was that just tagged on because 'suffering is bad'?

detachment from EMOTIONAL DISTRACTIONS, not ALL VALUES you jackass. There's 2 kinds of suffering: delusional suffering caused by delusional ego, and philosophical suffering caused by lengthy periods of solitude, unending and vigorous investigations, the loneliness caused by being honest, etc etc... The philosophical suffering is what causes philosophers to achieve things.

'life' is preoccupied with bullshit, horse radish, and bat dung. wise philosophers don't participate in 'life' thus. Which includes getting a mate and procuring kids. Working for and/or pleasing the wife and kids is one of the most wretched things a man can do, he will lose his soul, he cannot have both, unless he has inherited millions of dollars. No sane and moral man would ever think of bringing his own children into this wretched world. This world isn't worth it for my children, they would have to grow up and do the same things as everyone else.

WW wrote:

The problem here is that happiness and suffering are part in parcel -- without one you cannot have the other. We set a goal, we suffer through it, and we are elated when we succeed. This is how men accomplish things. When men settle down and strive (suffer) no more, they accomplish no more and don't experience the happiness that comes as a result of it.

I think the major goal of wisdom is to not suffer due to foolish pursuits and actions. The problem with most males is that they are motivated to strive to become something great in the eyes of others, to merely appear strong/successful in the eyes of females and other males. What we mostly strive for is merely to improve our self-image in the eyes of others through blind achievements. Or we strive to make more money to buy the wife more luxuries and crap she doesn’t need, or to have another baby. Almost all of man’s efforts are excessive, vain and genetically controlled.

Men have evolved to be the doers of the world, but they sacrifice their freedom for it. Freedom is not a period of extended suffering to merely be rewarded by a dopamine rush at the end, or be rewarded by the approval of others.

It is like university students, they suffer through memorization, big student loans, and immoral teaching methods because they are hoping for something in the future, better job, recognition, to help humanity. However, their fantasies allow them to put up with the suffering, but if they threw the fantasies out the window, they would say to themselves, “what the hell am I doing this dog shit for?, what is the point of this blind suffering? Who am I helping? I am merely hurting myself here!”

And some wretched jobs are necessary for the continuation of the civilization as it is, but why sacrifice your own well being when another less intelligent human being is willing to do the labour in your place?

Total freedom means a total rejection of humanity’s martyr mentality for the sake of the whole, and the sake of one’s self image.

A sage rejects most jobs and pursuits merely because the reasons he used to use to justify his continuous suffering are no longer valid in his mind.

He doesn’t want to suffer for a woman, or children, or a bigger home, or a fancy job title, or what have you… he has experienced the suffering of the layman, and he realizes that it isn’t for him…

Although, what I would like to see is private scientific research faculties where you don’t need a PHD to conduct research, where you could merely have a discussion with the owners, and when they realize that you are an intellectual, then they take you in – Earning Academic Credentials is incredibly immoral – it’s expensive, time-consuming, and a waste of energy and effort for the most part.

Everything you need to know about a laboratory can be taught in a few days, and one could do all the background research on ones own accord....

Ryan,
You are merely projecting your own views onto everyone one else.

It is like university students, they suffer through memorization, big student loans, and immoral teaching methods because they are hoping for something in the future, better job, recognition, to help humanity. However, their fantasies allow them to put up with the suffering, but if they threw the fantasies out the window, they would say to themselves, “what the hell am I doing this dog shit for?, what is the point of this blind suffering? Who am I helping? I am merely hurting myself here!”

Not all university students are suffering for nothing. Not all even feel like they're suffering.

Why is helping humanity a bad thing? That's only your opinion.

Sure you shouldn't live a life you think is a waste, but each person has a slightly different view point. You think people are only doing these things to look great in the eyes of others, but you fail to see that some people aren't being blinded and are doing these things for themselves and what they truely feel is important.

And some wretched jobs are necessary for the continuation of the civilization as it is, but why sacrifice your own well being when another less intelligent human being is willing to do the labour in your place?

Wretched is your own loaded word. Not everyone finds the same jobs wretched. People enjoy doing different things. And if those jobs are necessary as you point out then they do hold some importance. Why sacrifice your own well being? whatever. Of course you aren't going to delight in any old field, but neither is anyone else. Sure there are many people doing a job they chose for ill reasons and that they don't really like, but it's not a certain job, this could happen in any field.

Total freedom means a total rejection of humanity’s martyr mentality for the sake of the whole, and the sake of one’s self image.

For the sake of one's self image sure, but for the sake of the whole, I doubt that.

A sage rejects most jobs and pursuits merely because the reasons he used to use to justify his continuous suffering are no longer valid in his mind.

Yes, because he realizes what he values, it doesn't mean that he doesn't suffer for what he finds important, but that suffering doesn't really bother him because he knows it's importance.

Although, what I would like to see is private scientific research faculties where you don’t need a PHD to conduct research, where you could merely have a discussion with the owners, and when they realize that you are an intellectual, then they take you in – Earning Academic Credentials is incredibly immoral – it’s expensive, time-consuming, and a waste of energy and effort for the most part.

Why do you value doing research? Research is just as expensive and time-consuming as the degree it takes to do the research. And you're project the idea that academic credentials are a waste of energy and effort, that's not a fact.


Faust,
I agree that there are two kinds of suffering and that philosophical suffering for values helps to achieve things.

But why do you always think the world is so wretched. I don't find the world or life wretched. And I think that it's your view point of the world that is coloring your attitude toward what a sane and moral man would do.


Personally, I think there are certain values that are a part of humanity. Just trying to find contentment is passive. Living a life to fulfill ones deepest values is good. In suffering to achieve something important isn't horrible, only pointless suffering causes great distress. When there is something you value, even if you fail to achieve it you'll be happier for trying.

Cat wrote:

but you fail to see that some people aren't being blinded and are doing these things for themselves and what they truely feel is important.

I would say 99% of the academic population are motivated more with making money and doing something that looks good in the eyes of others, people are always neurotically asking what others are taking and doing because they are so unsure of their own course of action, only a tiny percentage actually enjoy what they do, and most of the ones that enjoy their jobs only enjoy the constant occupation because it allows them to hide from themselves. Almost all the students in university that I knew were quite aimless, constantly switching degrees, uncertain, and doubtful of their course of action. I would say what students learn in university does very little for them besides prevent them from being wise. They become conditioned with a lot of knowledge that they don’t understand at a deep level.

Many leave with all sorts of contradictory forms of knowledge that leaves them more confused than when they began because they don't have the reasoning skills to negate the rubbish many of the professors were trying to teach...

University is quite a tragic trajectory for most I’m afraid. They leave the institute worse off than what they went in, or they end up scoring a well paying job that destroys their soul and body, so they use constant drug, entertainment, food, sex, and so on to alleviate the drudgery of their day to day existence.

Cat wrote:

People enjoy doing different things.

I don’t think many people enjoy what they do. Their days are constant frustration, tedious repetition, headaches, sore muscles, trying to cooperate with people they don’t especially care for, and so on….

They simply become habitualized to misery, and lose their sensitivity…

Cat wrote:

it doesn't mean that he doesn't suffer for what he finds important, but that suffering doesn't really bother him because he knows it's importance.

If the suffering doesn’t bother him, then he is deceiving himself with illusions and fantasy. Suffering should always bother the sufferer, and he should always be asking? Is there an easier way than this? the immediate well-being of his subjective center is of the most importance, not some future attainment that he thinks will help humanity.

Ryan R wrote:It is like university students, they suffer through memorization, big student loans, and immoral teaching methods because they are hoping for something in the future, better job, recognition, to help humanity. However, their fantasies allow them to put up with the suffering, but if they threw the fantasies out the window, they would say to themselves, “what the hell am I doing this dog shit for?, what is the point of this blind suffering? Who am I helping? I am merely hurting myself here!”

It was a long time ago that I went to college; I graduated in 1985.

The main reason I went to college was that I didn't want to work. Going to school was the other available alternative; I was putting off the inevitable for a few years. My first college years involved a lot of partying.

After two years, I dropped out for a semester and worked as a security guard. That convinced me that going back to school was a good idea. Being a security guard kind of sucked. (YMMV.)

"Immoral teaching methods" - really? Since I was a math major, I don't feel like I ran into that. Memorization is not a huge part of math, although it does help to memorize a few formulas here and there. (I'd also argue that being able to memorize large amounts of stuff is actually a very useful real-world skill, but that's kind of irrelevant here.)

Big student loans - yes, that is much more of an issue today than it was 20 years ago. School is a lot more expensive today. I mostly got by on grants and scholarships.

And some wretched jobs are necessary for the continuation of the civilization as it is, but why sacrifice your own well being when another less intelligent human being is willing to do the labour in your place?

A large part of the point of going to college is to get a job that is not wretched. In college I was naive, but lucky. I started off in Sociology, but wandered off from that because I didn't respect the teachers. I stuck with math. I was lucky enough to have a decent aptitude for it. I was lucky that a math skills are highly marketable - I really didn't think about such things in college. I kind of figured I would drive trucks after I graduated. (Turns out I wasn't very good at driving trucks.)

Many leave with all sorts of contradictory forms of knowledge that leaves them more confused than when they began because they don't have the reasoning skills to negate the rubbish many of the professors were trying to teach...

Don't take courses on rubbishy subjects.

Ryan,

What we mostly strive for is merely to improve our self-image in the eyes of others through blind achievements. Or we strive to make more money to buy the wife more luxuries and crap she doesn’t need, or to have another baby. Almost all of man’s efforts are excessive, vain and genetically controlled.

Prime example of nihilism here. Everything is in vain. Life is in vain. So why should we do anything? Why not detach from the world so we don't suffer with participating in life!

Men have evolved to be the doers of the world, but they sacrifice their freedom for it. Freedom is not a period of extended suffering to merely be rewarded by a dopamine rush at the end, or be rewarded by the approval of others.

Your idea of freedom seems to be to exist without participating. Of course this is impossible; in reality we are not free.

It is like university students, they suffer through memorization, big student loans, and immoral teaching methods because they are hoping for something in the future, better job, recognition, to help humanity. However, their fantasies allow them to put up with the suffering, but if they threw the fantasies out the window, they would say to themselves, “what the hell am I doing this dog shit for?, what is the point of this blind suffering? Who am I helping? I am merely hurting myself here!”

Many university students, myself included, would disagree with this. Anyways, what is wrong with "hurting myself"? Once again your instincts to avoid suffering or discomfort come out! But we have to decide if we want contentment and mediocrity or greatness, which only ever comes out of suffering and discomfort.

Total freedom means a total rejection of humanity’s martyr mentality for the sake of the whole, and the sake of one’s self image.

Nihilism: to value nothing. QRS: to value nothing except the spread of nihilism.

A sage rejects most jobs and pursuits merely because the reasons he used to use to justify his continuous suffering are no longer valid in his mind.

He doesn’t want to suffer for a woman, or children, or a bigger home, or a fancy job title, or what have you… he has experienced the suffering of the layman, and he realizes that it isn’t for him…

Why would an intelligent person who understands the nature of reality favor happiness over suffering? That is what the herd does.... The difference between the herd and the intelligent is that the intelligent has greater goals and purposes. He sees the big picture and doesn't aim for trivial things. Everyone shapes the future of humanity though life's dropouts have the least effect.

Although, what I would like to see is private scientific research faculties where you don’t need a PHD to conduct research, where you could merely have a discussion with the owners, and when they realize that you are an intellectual, then they take you in – Earning Academic Credentials is incredibly immoral – it’s expensive, time-consuming, and a waste of energy and effort for the most part.

This is a good goal. I assume it has become your end now, rather than waiting for someone else to do it?

DHodges wrote:Being a security guard kind of sucked. (YMMV.)

why? what does YMMV mean?

"Immoral teaching methods" - really? Since I was a math major, I don't feel like I ran into that. Memorization is not a huge part of math, although it does help to memorize a few formulas here and there. (I'd also argue that being able to memorize large amounts of stuff is actually a very useful real-world skill, but that's kind of irrelevant here.)

you didn't have immoral teaching because you were a math major.

Don't take courses on rubbishy subjects.

HA! Just say that to the honest philosophers out there who are in academic philosophy, psychology, humanities, social sciences etc... Boy that's ironic. Probably the most important faculties for civilization (humanities, social sciences) are sabotaged by immoral teaching methods, corruption, and hopeless job prospects.

I'm a psychology major and I'm thinking of dropping out before my 2nd semester starts. What Ryan has said about academia and its hopeless students is totally true. Academia has NOTHING to do with Truth or Absolute Reality or the end of delusional suffering, quite the opposite.

cat10542 wrote: But why do you always think the world is so wretched. I don't find the world or life wretched. And I think that it's your view point of the world that is coloring your attitude toward what a sane and moral man would do.

the world IS wretched for most people; shitty soul-destroying low pay jobs, teenagers disillusioned with academia and with society's superficial demands. Teenagers with CRAZY Truth-hating parents pushing and shoving at his bounds (get a job, fight other people for a better job, get a mate, or we'll kick you out, etc etc..) Half of the world lives on 1$ or less a day for fuck's sakes, endless wars, famine, brutality, torture. Your naivety and immediate perception of your personal life always distorts the real world and Truth and reality and the life experiences of the rest of the global population who many times are born into wretchedness or have wretchedness thrusted upon them. You don't find YOUR life wretched, not life in general, because of your privelages and personal circumstances.

Living a life to fulfill ones deepest values is good. In suffering to achieve something important isn't horrible, only pointless suffering causes great distress.

Yes my deepest values are to find Truth and to have some peace and quiet to finish important pieces of work. 'Pointless suffering' is when you are doing things to impress others especially to gain their favour, ie parents.

When there is something you value, even if you fail to achieve it you'll be happier for trying

wrong again. If people waste years, money, their minds, their soul, their integrity and abilities in academia to realize after graduation and beyond that it was all in vain, or that what they learned had nothing to do nor helped much with what they're doing, then you won't be happier in trying.

WhorlyWhelk,

But we have to decide if we want contentment and mediocrity or greatness, which only ever comes out of suffering and discomfort.

HAHAHHAHA! Academia has NOTHING to do with greatness, exceptionality, individuality, Truth, Absolute Reality, genius, etc etc.. Academia has EVERYTHING to do with mediocrity, kissing ass, grovelling on one's belly, lying, wasting time, taking irrelevant but 'prerequisite' courses, etc etc... Professors are FAILURES of life, that's why they teach!! Those who can't do, teach!! Professors are vindictive, jealous, and hopelessly insecure. Just look at them for the pathetic people that they are! Those poor students' lives are totally at the mercy of these vermin `pedagogues`.

the intelligent has greater goals and purposes. He sees the big picture and doesn't aim for trivial things. Everyone shapes the future of humanity though life's dropouts have the least effect.

greater goals and purposes are becoming wise and finding Truth about the world and about the human psyche. I wonder what you think are trivial things? Yes most people shape the future of humanity by doing BAD AND WRONG THINGS, not good things. Progress is always slow and stunded by prevailing mediocrity.

Faust13,

There's 2 kinds of suffering: delusional suffering caused by delusional ego, and philosophical suffering caused by lengthy periods of solitude, unending and vigorous investigations, the loneliness caused by being honest, etc etc... The philosophical suffering is what causes philosophers to achieve things.

I see two types: suffering that one is in control of and suffering that one is not in control of. Then you rename suffering that one is not in control of, AKA interaction with the rest of the world AKA life, as "delusional suffering". However, just because one doesn't have to participate in life doesn't make it delusional, there is no more real reality.

This world isn't worth it for my children, they would have to grow up and do the same things as everyone else.

Pessimism... your children would have an opportunity to shape the future as you do, and you have an opportunity to shape them.

Faust13,

HAHAHHAHA! Academia has NOTHING to do with greatness, exceptionality, individuality, Truth, Absolute Reality, genius, etc etc.. ........ Those poor students' lives are totally at the mercy of these vermin `pedagogues`.

I was referring to hurting oneself. specifically suffering for knowledge and understanding. I think you had some bad professors! Mine are usually older people who were engineers or whatnot in their day but then retired from that, or people who don't want to do research (it is rather boring).

greater goals and purposes are becoming wise and finding Truth about the world and about the human psyche. I wonder what you think are trivial things? Yes most people shape the future of humanity by doing BAD AND WRONG THINGS, not good things. Progress is always slow and stunded by prevailing mediocrity.

Well how would you envision progress? Surely not as someone who sits around in his "emptiness" all day rejecting any value in life. And "prevailing mediocrity" only stunts progress if mediocrity is in control.

WhorlyWhelk wrote:However, just because one doesn't have to participate in life doesn't make it delusional, there is no more real reality.

WTF...did you just say????? Yes you just agreed that not participating in 'life' is not delusional. There is no more real reality????

Pessimism... your children would have an opportunity to shape the future as you do, and you have an opportunity to shape them.

wtf are you talking about???? Shaping the future is not as easy or as successful as you think idiot. yes I have an opportunity to shape them, which will make them wise and realize that I was such an arsehole to bring them into this world without their consent. The fact of the matter is, you cannot HELP humanity on a wide scale because humanity is nothing but this restless, idiotic, dishonest mob. It's like trying to show my friends Truth, they want NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. As Celia Green once said: "the human race knows enough about thinking to prevent it."

what ARE you studying in university exactly? what's your major? and how do you think this is going to 'shape the future`?? Sadly, modern university discourages individualism in favour of collectivism.

WhorlyWhelk wrote:I was referring to hurting oneself. specifically suffering for knowledge and understanding. I think you had some bad professors! Mine are usually older people who were engineers or whatnot in their day but then retired from that, or people who don't want to do research (it is rather boring).

WTF??? Hurting oneself happens when you have to PUT UP with these OPPRESSIVE and vindictive 3rd-rate pedagogues, idiot. Academia doesn't have much to do with knowledge and understanding Truth or Reality. Yes I've had bad professors because I'm in the Social Sciences. Professors are USUALLY bad because that's why they teach!! They find their existence by putting exceptional individual youths down and sabotaging them. Research is rather boring???? research is the only redeemable and nonboring thing of academia.

Well how would you envision progress? Surely not as someone who sits around in his "emptiness" all day rejecting any value in life. And "prevailing mediocrity" only stunts progress if mediocrity is in control.

enlightenment isn't for everyone. I don't reject all value in life, and I don't "worship" emptiness. Mediocrity is usually in control!!! Because the mob is mediocrity, and the mob is the majority. Ever realize how genuises always have to "pull through and fight" the mob to get recognised????

as Celia Green again says, "society is sympathetic to past genuises because it has no intention of being sympathetic to the genuises of today."

Faust13,

WW: However, just because one doesn't have to participate in life doesn't make it delusional, there is no more real reality.

F: WTF...did you just say????? Yes you just agreed that not participating in 'life' is not delusional. There is no more real reality????

There is no 'more real' reality than life. Life isn't an illusion or a delusion.

WW: Pessimism... your children would have an opportunity to shape the future as you do, and you have an opportunity to shape them.

F: wtf are you talking about???? Shaping the future is not as easy or as successful as you think idiot. yes I have an opportunity to shape them, which will make them wise and realize that I was such an arsehole to bring them into this world without their consent.

You don't need their consent. If they want to end it they can at any time.

The fact of the matter is, you cannot HELP humanity on a wide scale because humanity is nothing but this restless, idiotic, dishonest mob. It's like trying to show my friends Truth, they want NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. As Celia Green once said: "the human race knows enough about thinking to prevent it."

You deny that you can make any difference because you are so insignificant (just 1 in 6 billion)? Look at all the people in the past who have made a difference, you don't have a convincing argument here.

what ARE you studying in university exactly? what's your major? and how do you think this is going to 'shape the future`?? Sadly, modern university discourages individualism in favour of collectivism.

Science/Mathematics officially.

WTF??? Hurting oneself happens when you have to PUT UP with these OPPRESSIVE and vindictive 3rd-rate pedagogues, idiot.

Haha on second thought don't have children, you look like another extremely overprotective parent. "Oh noes those teachers would have a bad influence on his psychology and ruin him!"

Mediocrity is usually in control!!! Because the mob is mediocrity, and the mob is the majority.

You realize democracy is relatively young?

WW wrote:

But we have to decide if we want contentment and mediocrity or greatness, which only ever comes out of suffering and discomfort.

All you can do is accumulate more and more empirical knowledge, or perfect a skill that is in a large demand, or live a family-orientated life, so yes in this sense life is vanity. As long as one realizes that all ones effort to achieve is not necessary. Freedom is in the first step, not the last. Don’t follow the rainbow to find your pot of gold, be the rainbow, there is a major difference there.

Aristotle said something like, “All paid labor degrades the mind” and that is true with a few exceptions, as I do recognize that there a minority of individuals that have powerful positions where they are able to live creative lives without too many burdens. However, going through societies hoops to achieve this end is not worth the suffering, especially considering there are no guarantees that you will ever be in the position of your fancy.

WW wrote:

Nihilism: to value nothing. QRS: to value nothing except the spread of nihilism.

I have values, I value my own freedom over helping humanity to make things easier for the whole. To make things easier for the whole, you need to sacrifice your freedom. There are rare circumstances, where you can help the whole, and be free, but for the most part, most humans are helping to make things easier for the whole by doing labor that they don’t especially enjoy doing.

I’m hopeful that technology will continue to make things easier, although unless an institute that recognizes Genius opens up, and doesn’t ask for expensive time consuming, soul sacrificing credentials, then I will probably have no part in the technological and scientific progress. I enjoy reading and thinking about it, but I don’t have to be a direct cause to feel engaged. Things will continue to progress mostly due to the tedious small steps of mediocre men, who lay the groundwork for increasingly complex forms of technology.

However, If you can find something to do in civilization that works for you, and you’re not experiencing degrees of suffering, then good for you, but I suspect it is difficult to achieve. I have worked in many industries – construction, customer service, computer repair, and I have quickly left each one due to the suffering that was involved. Civilization moves too fast, and expectations are too high for the worker. Security is all that I can tolerate in civilization because there is very little burden on the body and mind.

Dhodges wrote:

In college I was naive, but lucky. I started off in Sociology, but wandered off from that because I didn't respect the teachers. I stuck with math. I was lucky enough to have a decent aptitude for it. I was lucky that a math skills are highly marketable –

Yes, you were lucky, but a large percentage of students are unlucky. What was your math-related career?

Dhodges wrote:

After two years, I dropped out for a semester and worked as a security guard. That convinced me that going back to school was a good idea. Being a security guard kind of sucked.

I actually find security quite liberating compared to every other mind/body draining occupation I’ve worked. Although it depends on the type of security work. Security is typically difficult for people because we are only rewarded psychologically by moving our bodies constantly, doing work, and feeling useful. Both sexes are conditioned to feel this way.

Women are notorious for this sort of thinking – they say, “well, what can I say, I like to keep myself busy” as if it is some sort of virtue. In other words, they like to remain unreflective obedient drones for their family and community.

And I'm not saying there is anything 'wrong' with it, because we need drones, they are necessary, I'm glad to be served by drones, but I just don't feel the need to be a drone myself, or value the efforts of drones more than the sanity of sages.

WhorlyWhelk wrote: Nietzsche particularly criticizes Christianity, Jesus, and democracy for this attitude, but this forum is also teaching it. Here are the four apparently noble truths from Buddhism...

Four Noble Truths wrote:1. Life means suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

The teaching here is indifference, and it is the same to what this forum is teaching. You decide that since the origin of suffering is attachment and suffering is undesirable, we should drop all attachment and drop out of life -- that way it is impossible to suffer!

The spreading of wisdom that you participate in is quite simply for the goal of spreading non-attachment to try and reach the universal green-pastures where the whole herd is equal, content, stagnated and purposeless.

Universal green-pastures? That seems very vague while it's in the center of your critique.

Imagine if Jesus succeeded. We will all agree that true Christianity is definitely not what Christianity is in the world today, but instead Jesus was the only true Christian;

What if he didn't exist at all? Perhaps you should make an argument based on some more realistic example.

Christians are supposed to abandon all worldly attachments.

Only when one is Christian in a very radical way, dismissing a lot of Scripture as false or unsavable.

Why do we want to end all suffering?

Suffering is also stemming from ignorance, which causes us not to know what suffering is apart from a collection of very vague notions, let alone why we're experiencing it. And so neither do we know what life really is in the ignorant state. Although we think we know!

That's why Buddha preached to get to know the origin of suffering, its nature first. Before even trying to 'end it'. And it's also why Jesus talked about the ignorant being like the dead, burying the dead.

Ryan R wrote:As long as one realizes that all ones effort to achieve is not necessary.

Not necessary to what end? Nothing is necessary to a nihilist. No responsibilities -- freedom? We want to be children again!

Ryan R wrote:Aristotle said something like, “All paid labor degrades the mind” and that is true with a few exceptions, as I do recognize that there a minority of individuals that have powerful positions where they are able to live creative lives without too many burdens. However, going through societies hoops to achieve this end is not worth the suffering, especially considering there are no guarantees that you will ever be in the position of your fancy.

In the end (of your life) is there any difference in whether you suffered your whole life or were content for your whole life? Yes and no. From your perspective, which no longer exists, there is no difference whatsoever after you are dead. The only difference is the effects of your causes that will continue to shape timeless nature.

Working for money to buy pleasure is not something any intelligent person who is outside the herd is likely to do, but that doesn't mean that participating in life in itself is bad.

Ryan: Freedom is in the first step, not the last.

...

WW: Nihilism: to value nothing. QRS: to value nothing except the spread of nihilism.

Ryan: I have values, I value my own freedom over helping humanity to make things easier for the whole. To make things easier for the whole, you need to sacrifice your freedom. There are rare circumstances, where you can help the whole, and be free, but for the most part, most humans are helping to make things easier for the whole by doing labor that they don’t especially enjoy doing.

What exactly is this freedom? Freedom from suffering? Freedom from responsibility? Freedom from doing something -- anything? This is the objective freedom where you can observe but not participate in life! To achieve this 'freedom' you must deny everything non-essential to life; hence you are denying life. This is the freedom of doing nothing but knowing you could do anything; however, paradoxically, if you did do something you would no longer possess this freedom! If you did participate in life you would lose your stance as an observer who is free to see the whole. So you must really ask if you are actually free!

Realistically speaking we are in no way free. Nothing about reality is free! If a non-free person wants to be free is this not in itself delusional? As to wanting to be free I think Nietzsche might say: slaves want to be free, masters want to command!

Ryan R wrote:I’m hopeful that technology will continue to make things easier, although unless an institute that recognizes Genius opens up, and doesn’t ask for expensive time consuming, soul sacrificing credentials, then I will probably have no part in the technological and scientific progress. I enjoy reading and thinking about it, but I don’t have to be a direct cause to feel engaged. Things will continue to progress mostly due to the tedious small steps of mediocre men, who lay the groundwork for increasingly complex forms of technology.

So mediocre men make small progress -- I agree. And I doubt you would argue that great men make great progress. Yet you want to make no progress... perhaps sit back in contentment and watch other people suffering and wasting their lives when it is all pointless, right?! -- what does that make you? Not quite 'no man', but 'little-as-is-possible man'? The next best thing to dead after having committed the next best thing to suicide?

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Universal green-pastures? That seems very vague while it's in the center of your critique.

A world of total peace. A world where all the slaves are free, where suffering is eliminated and everyone is content or happy! Basically what our democracy is aiming towards. A world were everyone is "good" and "moral".

WW: Imagine if Jesus succeeded. We will all agree that true Christianity is definitely not what Christianity is in the world today, but instead Jesus was the only true Christian;

Diebert: What if he didn't exist at all? Perhaps you should make an argument based on some more realistic example.

How is that more realistic? Jesus did exist and affected the world greatly. There is still a good chance that he could succeed.

WhorlyWhelk wrote:There is no 'more real' reality than life. Life isn't an illusion or a delusion.

it depends which kind of life you're talking about idiot. There are many aspects of life that are delusional such as vanity, self-inherent existence, etc..

You don't need their consent. If they want to end it they can at any time.

not as easy as you think. It takes a lot of courage and nobleness to commit suicide.

You deny that you can make any difference because you are so insignificant (just 1 in 6 billion)? Look at all the people in the past who have made a difference, you don't have a convincing argument here.

those FEW people, not many if you exclude warlords, tyrants, etc... Those FEW people were in the right place at the right time in many cases. Not only that, globalization has changed many things. Not only that, if you REALLY want to make change, working at a random job WILL DEFINITELY NOT HELP YOU!! idiot. Just look at so many problems today such as psychiatry, the Federal Reserve, corporate lobbying, and think of all the bullshit I would have to go through just to even have a REMOTE CHANCE of ending these things. Lawyers???? Fuckin vermin. Courts, as HL Mencken said, favour lawyers making hollow empty phrases and matching petty tricks with other lawyers instead of favouring truth, sense, and justice. As HL Mencken also said something to the effect of; the Jury and Judge in courts are Judas and the defendant is Jesus.

Science/Mathematics officially.

and how do you want to change the world with this?

Haha on second thought don't have children, you look like another extremely overprotective parent. "Oh noes those teachers would have a bad influence on his psychology and ruin him!"

that's because that stuff happens idiot. From experience most teachers are like that, so you sound like an ignorant child in this quote.

You realize democracy is relatively young?

actually it's not, idiot. Ancient Greece? French Revolution? And what's your point with this question? Mediocrity prevails throughout the centuries regardless of 'democracy.' Herd mentality is psychological and exists regardless of political systems.

Jesus really did exist.

now this is just, HILARIOUS!! Just look at how much conviction he has, he "did exist". Where is the SOLID EVIDENCE that he existed? none whatsoever.

Ryan R wrote:What was your math-related career?

I work as an actuary. (Besides a degree in math, I also have an ACAS designation.) I work for an insurance company that stopped writing insurance years ago; there is not much in the way of deadlines. I mostly work on long-term projects, and so I have time for things like posting here. I am occasionally very busy, but not too often.

The work itself is interesting. Mostly I work with some programmers, creating a system for doing projections.

sounds pretty boring to me, nothing to do with philosophy

WW wrote:

slaves want to be free, masters want to command!

These statements are dangerous, they create Hitlers, bad Nietzsche, bad, put down that pen before you hurt someone, oops too late.

To be a master, one needs to become a slave, and once the master status has been achieved, one cannot truly help most people at the deepest psychological level, the master settles for helping people at a more superficial level, which seems like a waste of effort, and not worth the suffering to me.

In affect, the person is suffering to make the lives of deluded people just a little better, without actually addressing the problem of delusion.

If you don’t mind me asking, what exactly is your vision? You seem to be defending something, what career are you currently working towards?

WW wrote:

And I doubt you would argue that great men make great progress. Yet you want to make no progress.

Great men make progress within themselves on a psychological level, but they do little for the mainstream. And they can share their wisdom in books, on messageboards, but progress is very subtle as far as wisdom is concerned.

Dhodges wrote:

The work itself is interesting. Mostly I work with some programmers, creating a system for doing projections.

You seem to have the disposition to tolerate this type of work, and it doesn’t seem to drive you mad. However, the nature of most jobs eventually cause me to quit…

Faust13,

Ancient Greece? French Revolution? And what's your point with this question? Mediocrity prevails throughout the centuries regardless of 'democracy.' Herd mentality is psychological and exists regardless of political systems.

The herd only prevails if they are in charge. As far as I know earlier democracies only allowed a certain higher portion of society to participate. I could be wrong.

now this is just, HILARIOUS!! Just look at how much conviction he has, he "did exist". Where is the SOLID EVIDENCE that he existed? none whatsoever.

He exists in the Bible and has had a large influence on the last two millenniums. Whether or not he actually lived or is a fictional character is irrelevant.

Ryan,

These statements are dangerous, they create Hitlers, bad Nietzsche, bad, put down that pen before you hurt someone, oops too late.

These statements create danger and suffering? I don't see anything inherently wrong with Hitlers. In fact Nietzsche would probably be happy that Hitler stirred the pot up and created war, which Nietzsche realizes is necessary for the overcoming of humanity -- his goal.

To be a master, one needs to become a slave, and once the master status has been achieved, one cannot truly help most people at the deepest psychological level, the master settles for helping people at a more superficial level, which seems like a waste of effort, and not worth the suffering to me.

Since when do masters care about helping their slaves on a psychological level?

In affect, the person is suffering to make the lives of deluded people just a little better, without actually addressing the problem of delusion.

You are trapped within the Christian morality. Nietzsche is directly opposed to making everyone's lives "better" in the sense of reducing all suffering. You might read the quote on my first post again where he says that great men rise out of the opposite conditions as Christian morality would have it.

If you don’t mind me asking, what exactly is your vision? You seem to be defending something, what career are you currently working towards?

Defending suffering. I have no career.

WW wrote:

These statements create danger and suffering? I don't see anything inherently wrong with Hitlers. In fact Nietzsche would probably be happy that Hitler stirred the pot up and created war, which Nietzsche realizes is necessary for the overcoming of humanity -- his goal.

Yes, but think of all the soldiers that died defending democracy and freedom from the allied countries. Many of them probably could have became much more than just cannon fodder. World War II seems like a dark blind movement of ignorance. Yes, many ignorant individuals died, but they took with them many intelligent people who were just trying to restore a peaceful balance.

Hitler may have come to some honest conclusions about the general inherent inferiority of certain races, but his approach was wrong, genocide seems rather barbaric to me. There must be an easier way….

WW wrote:

You are trapped within the Christian morality. Nietzsche is directly opposed to making everyone's lives "better" in the sense of reducing all suffering. You might read the quote on my first post again where he says that great men rise out of the opposite conditions as Christian morality would have it.

Oh I see your desire, so what do you plan to do with this power when you become a master? What are you going to do besides attract unconscious females, and the envy of unconscious males? What are your plans when you become a master?

WW wrote:

Defending suffering. I have no career.

okay, I understand your fantasies of seeking power, and becoming a master then. Think about it this way - your fantasy is the result of feeling powerless, but if you can get over this feeling of being powerless, then the desire for power will vanish with it. All we need in this world is basic food, clothes, and shelter, and some intellectual stimulation, and a bit of aesthetic beauty from time to time... that is all we need, we dont need to be masters, or CEOs, or have a large harem like Muhommend....