GENIUS FORUMS

My other thread isn't seeing much action so I've decided to create this one for some questions which I might have, now, and in the future, about some of the language and concepts used on this site.

Here we go...

1) Ultimate reality seems to be used quite a lot. I've read about this but I'm not sure if I get it, completely. Some of you use it as if it's like a heaven which all wise people should strive towards. My understanding is somewhat different. My idea is that ultimate reality is going on all around me at all times and as long as I'm not sleeping (or distracted in another way) then I'm already aware of it, and in it, so to speak.

2) Absolute truth. I've also been thinking about this one and I've come to the conclusion that there are infinite absolute truths all around us. I've read in many places that "everything has a cause" is a good example of this type of truth, but this same example is always used. Well, can't I say that, specifically, on so and so date, at so and so time, I went to the dentist for a check up, and be perfectly in the realm of absolute truths? Not only this, but I've made almost everything into an absolute truth. For instance, my teeth are cavity-free is another absolute (for me, anyway) simply because it's true in ultimate reality (again, for me).

3) I used to think that I understood this stuff but then I started to think of it in a different way (it's too complicated for me to talk about, at the moment) and I've ended up confusing myself. The concepts, in my mind, changed and I saw things differently.

4) How can I be sure that I correctly understand whatever it is that I think I understand? It's not like you can check inside my head and see whether or not I have the right idea. How then, can I get confirmation? I can write about it, as I am trying to do, but maybe your interpretation of what I write won't be accurate with my intent of what it is that I am trying to get across. We could even be of the same mind but still argue our points as if the other doesn't understand because we might just be using language differently.

That'll be all for now. If I've missed the point then at least tell me that I've missed it and I'll try to find another way.

We could even be of the same mind but still argue our points as if the other doesn't understand because we might just be using language differently.

That, in a nutshell, accounts for 80-90% of the activity at GF.

Patrick86 wrote:My other thread isn't seeing much action so I've decided to create this one for some questions which I might have, now, and in the future, about some of the language and concepts used on this site.

Here we go...

1) Ultimate reality seems to be used quite a lot. I've read about this but I'm not sure if I get it, completely. Some of you use it as if it's like a heaven which all wise people should strive towards. My understanding is somewhat different. My idea is that ultimate reality is going on all around me at all times and as long as I'm not sleeping (or distracted in another way) then I'm already aware of it, and in it, so to speak.

Makes sense to me. The concept "Ultimate Reality" simply helps to distinguish between what can't be known for certain, such as whether I have legs or not, and what can. Hence the word "Ultimate". It's not a place or state to strive towards, but rather the true state of affairs of all that exists or may exist, and which can be known for certain.

2) Absolute truth. I've also been thinking about this one and I've come to the conclusion that there are infinite absolute truths all around us. I've read in many places that "everything has a cause" is a good example of this type of truth, but this same example is always used. Well, can't I say that, specifically, on so and so date, at so and so time, I went to the dentist for a check up, and be perfectly in the realm of absolute truths? Not only this, but I've made almost everything into an absolute truth. For instance, my teeth are cavity-free is another absolute (for me, anyway) simply because it's true in ultimate reality (again, for me).

There are certainly infinite absolute truths, but not all of them can lead one to appreciating the nature of Ultimate Reality. That everything is causally created, and lacks inherent existence, is a direct pointer to the truth, hence its frequent appearance on the forum. It's an idea that helps dissolve the ego, and the sense of concreteness and real existence we falsely give to things.

What you suggest as absolutes could well be, but it's hard for me to know exactly what meaning you give. That the event of visiting the dentist actually happened, and that was its real identity, wouldn't be absolutely true, since that description depended on a particular perspective. You might have been a badly programmed robot at a fun-fair. But if you give it that identity, then there is an absolute truth in that identity.

3) I used to think that I understood this stuff but then I started to think of it in a different way (it's too complicated for me to talk about, at the moment) and I've ended up confusing myself. The concepts, in my mind, changed and I saw things differently.

4) How can I be sure that I correctly understand whatever it is that I think I understand? It's not like you can check inside my head and see whether or not I have the right idea. How then, can I get confirmation? I can write about it, as I am trying to do, but maybe your interpretation of what I write won't be accurate with my intent of what it is that I am trying to get across. We could even be of the same mind but still argue our points as if the other doesn't understand because we might just be using language differently.

That'll be all for now. If I've missed the point then at least tell me that I've missed it and I'll try to find another way.

It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks you think. All that matters here is your own understanding, and gaining certainty through applying yourself to be as rational as you can. And, at the moment, it looks like you're exploring the nature of Reality in a genuinely truth-seeking way, but you haven't quite found the angle of thinking that reveals the core of the matter. Namely, that all things lack intrinsic existence, including one's self, and that there isn't anything to grasp onto. Once you have reasoned through the absolute logical truths about how things exist, you cannot coherently doubt the conclusion of emptiness. If you remain confused about this, resolve it immediately. There should be no confusion.


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Patrick,

Interesting post.

Just to comment, this forum is dedicated to perfecting ones reasoning skills, while ridding the mind of emotionally and egotistical rooted delusions and other psychological habits that distort thinking, and cause suffering.

And you will see that there are certain logical truths that are universally true, and confirmed by experience and some of the other greatest philosophers who have ever pondered such things.

Kelly Jones wrote:The concept "Ultimate Reality" simply helps to distinguish between what can't be known for certain, such as whether I have legs or not, and what can. Hence the word "Ultimate". It's not a place or state to strive towards, but rather the true state of affairs of all that exists or may exist, and which can be known for certain.

Well, you do have legs, don't you? If you do, then I consider that to be an ultimate fact of Ultimate Reality.

That everything is causally created, and lacks inherent existence, is a direct pointer to the truth, hence its frequent appearance on the forum. It's an idea that helps dissolve the ego, and the sense of concreteness and real existence we falsely give to things.

What's "inherent existence"? And how is existence not inherent when everything is said to be causally created?

What you suggest as absolutes could well be, but it's hard for me to know exactly what meaning you give. That the event of visiting the dentist actually happened, and that was its real identity, wouldn't be absolutely true, since that description depended on a particular perspective. You might have been a badly programmed robot at a fun-fair. But if you give it that identity, then there is an absolute truth in that identity.

I don't follow. Could it be that maybe my visit to the dentist isn't an absolute truth for you because you have no way of knowing whether it happened for real or not?

It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks you think.

It can matter if we're trying to understand eachother.

And, at the moment, it looks like you're exploring the nature of Reality in a genuinely truth-seeking way, but you haven't quite found the angle of thinking that reveals the core of the matter.

How do I find that angle?

Namely, that all things lack intrinsic existence, including one's self, and that there isn't anything to grasp onto. Once you have reasoned through the absolute logical truths about how things exist, you cannot coherently doubt the conclusion of emptiness. If you remain confused about this, resolve it immediately. There should be no confusion.

I'm confused because I don't know what your talking about.

Thanks, Ryan!

Patrick86 wrote:

Kelly Jones wrote:The concept "Ultimate Reality" simply helps to distinguish between what can't be known for certain, such as whether I have legs or not, and what can. Hence the word "Ultimate". It's not a place or state to strive towards, but rather the true state of affairs of all that exists or may exist, and which can be known for certain.

Well, you do have legs, don't you? If you do, then I consider that to be an ultimate fact of Ultimate Reality.

Ultimate Reality is about what is ultimately real. I think this is worth making a point about. But the question is, can anything which is dependent on other things be ultimately real? No, they can't be. Such things are existentially very fragile, since they can vanish in the blink of an eye, if the causal relationship is altered in even the subtlest of ways.

My legs are an example of something that is dependent on other things.

Legs exist only because there are bones, muscle, other tissues, blood, and skin all kept together by countless other things, such as the right air pressure, gravity, temperature, humidity, and other environmental factors. Legs are even dependent on things being absent, like evolutionary forces that kept lifeforms from leaving the oceans long ago. All these innumerable causal factors make up an ongoing seamless flux of interactivity and change that has no limit in the entire Universe. So, in a word, there are no things that can really be said to be firm and ultimate facts. There is only the open-endedness and fragility of causation.

That I have legs is a scientific conjecture, not an absolute truth. So I conjecture that they will keep behaving as they normally do, but I realise science is an open-ended and utterly fragile type of knowledge. Science is the study of particular causal relationships, like how legs function. It's never certain knowledge. The world is in constant flux, and I cannot fix anything in it as an absolute and unchanging phenomenon. Thus, although it's highly unlikely, it's possible that the next time I go to get up and walk around on my two legs, something else totally unleg-like will be there. That is the way of Ultimate Reality.

K: That everything is causally created, and lacks inherent existence, is a direct pointer to the truth, hence its frequent appearance on the forum. It's an idea that helps dissolve the ego, and the sense of concreteness and real existence we falsely give to things.

P: What's "inherent existence"? And how is existence not inherent when everything is said to be causally created?

I'll answer the first question, as this should answer your second. Inherent existence means the way we tend to think things exist. Consider how a tree exists. Ordinarily, people consider the tree to be something truly distinct from its environment, a real and solid thing. Yet the boundary that separates the tree from everything external to it is ultimately a conceptual projection and nothing more. Everything that is not the tree is in some way related to its existence. For instance, the ground it grows in, the air around its trunk and branches and leaves, the rain and clouds and sun, birds and other animals like humans, and so forth, are all essential to its life in every moment. It is not an absolute and solid fact, but rather something very fragile, and open to all environmental influences.

Could it be that maybe my visit to the dentist isn't an absolute truth for you because you have no way of knowing whether it happened for real or not?

No, that's not why. See above.

How do I find that angle?

By thinking about what is ultimately real, as logically as possible, and with a great, burning, uncompromising desire for truth.

As mentioned in my previous post, one of the best tools to direct and focus the mind in the quest for enlightenment, is to think about causality as often as possible, letting it into every aspect of my life and mind. That is going to take some time, and sincere commitment.

K: Namely, that all things lack intrinsic existence, including one's self, and that there isn't anything to grasp onto. Once you have reasoned through the absolute logical truths about how things exist, you cannot coherently doubt the conclusion of emptiness. If you remain confused about this, resolve it immediately. There should be no confusion.

P: I'm confused because I don't know what your talking about.

I'm sorry about that. If my comments (above) still haven't clarified things sufficiently for you, let me know where the problem is.


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Kelly Jones wrote:Ultimate Reality is about what is ultimately real. I think this is worth making a point about. But the question is, can anything which is dependent on other things be ultimately real? No, they can't be. Such things are existentially very fragile, since they can vanish in the blink of an eye, if the causal relationship is altered in even the subtlest of ways.

My legs are an example of something that is dependent on other things.

Legs exist only because there are bones, muscle, other tissues, blood, and skin all kept together by countless other things, such as the right air pressure, gravity, temperature, humidity, and other environmental factors. Legs are even dependent on things being absent, like evolutionary forces that kept lifeforms from leaving the oceans long ago. All these innumerable causal factors make up an ongoing seamless flux of interactivity and change that has no limit in the entire Universe. So, in a word, there are no things that can really be said to be firm and ultimate facts. There is only the open-endedness and fragility of causation.

How is you having legs not ultimately real?

I'll answer the first question, as this should answer your second. Inherent existence means the way we tend to think things exist. Consider how a tree exists. Ordinarily, people consider the tree to be something truly distinct from its environment, a real and solid thing. Yet the boundary that separates the tree from everything external to it is ultimately a conceptual projection and nothing more. Everything that is not the tree is in some way related to its existence. For instance, the ground it grows in, the air around its trunk and branches and leaves, the rain and clouds and sun, birds and other animals like humans, and so forth, are all essential to its life in every moment. It is not an absolute and solid fact, but rather something very fragile, and open to all environmental influences.

But for the moment, and for moments to come, it's still a tree and remains to be a tree. Seemingly seperate and independent from everything else.

Patrick86 wrote:How is you having legs not ultimately real?

It's the same situation as for the tree.

K: I'll answer the first question, as this should answer your second. Inherent existence means the way we tend to think things exist. Consider how a tree exists. Ordinarily, people consider the tree to be something truly distinct from its environment, a real and solid thing. Yet the boundary that separates the tree from everything external to it is ultimately a conceptual projection and nothing more. Everything that is not the tree is in some way related to its existence. For instance, the ground it grows in, the air around its trunk and branches and leaves, the rain and clouds and sun, birds and other animals like humans, and so forth, are all essential to its life in every moment. It is not an absolute and solid fact, but rather something very fragile, and open to all environmental influences.

P: But for the moment, and for moments to come, it's still a tree and remains to be a tree. Seemingly seperate and independent from everything else.

I'm not saying that what appears to mind is actually something else, so that the tree is some kind of a phantom or delusion. Rather, I'm pointing to the illusory nature of the independence. The independence or boundedness of the tree comes solely from the mind's conceptualising. The treeness, that one sees and experiences a tree, is actually the mind at work unifying and solidifying and making permanent an infinite, and infinitely changeable, array of diverse fragments and experiences that are constantly varying and unstable. So the "tree" is actually a projection of form.

If you find the above a bit too wordy, here are a few aphorisms that might help spark an insight on the nature of formlessness.

The last one is a humorous extract from an essay, and so it's a bit longer.


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Categories are an attempt to finitize that which is infinite by nature. If we concentrate on the category, and not on what it applies to, we lose an infinite amount of information - literally.

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The wise do not listen for words, and require few, as they perceive the meaning of words directly. They do not mistake the roadsign for the place itself. Words are only labels for things, sticky labels perhaps: they are not the thing itself.

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Name and form

It is clear enough that names are merely labels stuck onto forms. What desperately needs to be understood is that forms too are labels - stuck onto Reality.

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Truth learned from another is of no value. At best we take custody of a lifeless carcass. The only truth which is vital and effective is the truth we discover ourselves.

Theories and doctrines are fabrications of the mind, but genuine spiritual teachings are different. They are designed to turn this way and that; pointing one way, then another; directed beyond name and form.

Yes, spiritual teachings are meant to perplex - in order that you might come to seek meanings.

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Progressive pitfalls

One: Complete attachment to name and form.

1 + 2 = 3

Two: The belief that things do not exist.

0 = 1 1 = 0

Three: The belief that something exists, but there are no defined boundaries.

1 x 0 = 0 100 x 0 = 0

Four: The belief that boundaries do exist, but that these are completely arbitrary and up to the individual.

1 + 2 = 3000 100 x 1000 = 4

Five: Beyond all these: Complete non-attachment

1 = 1 0 = 0 3 x 3 = 9

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Life can never come into existence. There is just change here, and no matter how much you might like to have been "born", it is simply not a real possibility. No matter your love of life, reality remains.

Know that any boundary line you draw to designate a "beginning" will by necessity be totally arbitrary. Nonetheless such boundaries must be made-up for practical purposes, there being no demarcations in reality. The crucial thing to remember while we go about our business is that all boundaries are drawn by the imagination, and are therefore illusory. I bid you never forget this truth!

Can we avoid these illusions? No, for we have evolved within Nature in such a way that our senses and concepts provide us with boundaries, with illusions, which we must accept if we are to survive. However, we must not be ruled by these marvelous appearances, but put them firmly under our control. If we concretely defined life as existing at conception, then to halt the growth of the resultant chemical grouping would literally be murder! If we let words control our lives in this way we will be perpetually faced with such ludicrous and perplexing problems.

We ourselves define what is to be "life" and "death". They do not exist of their own account, so we must devise them for communicating and living. Such concepts should be used as tools to make life easy. It is madness to let them dictate to us, and to let them confound our spirits with unending confusion. We ourselves must choose definitions of life in line with the requirements of the survival of our species, and the advancement of wisdom. We could choose "life" to mean any number of things. In an underpopulated world life could begin at conception, making abortion illegal, while in an overpopulated world life might begin at birth.

The essential thing is that there are no ultimate values given to us. We alone are the creators of values. Do not shirk your responsibility! Learn to be a creator! To fail here is to personally condemn humankind to death.

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I'm now reading "Wisdom of the Infinite."

As mentioned, I'll be away for a while. If you would like to discuss "Wisdom for the Infinite", you can email me at: kellyjones@naturalthinker.net

Alternatively, David's email is on his website.

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Or we can do it over PM, right?

Just a head's up, it'll take me a while to read all that. I'm on the 2nd section (I think it's "Cause and Effect") but I stopped reading halfway through. I'll be returning to it in a few days.

It's an interesting read and that's why I don't want to just skim through it.

PMs are fine, also.

That said, I think you'll find it'll concentrate your mind, strengthen your reason, and be a more enjoyable process, if you don't have the thought of discussing it with others.

If you really find a knotty issue you can't resolve, then I could discuss it, but you'll get infinitely more by going solo, and making your own way.

Good luck!

Patrick86 wrote:4) How can I be sure that I correctly understand whatever it is that I think I understand? It's not like you can check inside my head and see whether or not I have the right idea. How then, can I get confirmation?

By understanding A=A.

Everything that is/was/will be "happening" is an appearance, a mirage within the bubble of space/time. Of this you can be sure.