GENIUS FORUMS

I also agree with Tharan on the basic principle of recognising a threat and eliminating it, but the point is only an idiot does that by creating circumstances where the threat can actually thrive and grow. And yet that is exactly what is happening in Afghanistan and Iraq. It's not the concept but the strategy I have an issue with. In fact, I don't even believe there is any such strategy behind either of those invasions.

I agree with you on the utter incompetence of the Bush administration. I disagree somewhat with the idea of removing the Taliban, it was right to do so, but the disregard to maintenance and resources for Afghanistan in the past few years has almost completely squandered and negated the potential that country had after the invasion.

Iraq, on the other hand, was a fiasco from the very beginning. It was an excerise in hubris, and as an American who did NOT vote for Bush, I will regardless carry some level of shame and responsibility toward the ongoing debacle and its probable negative outcome. There really is no good solution there except try to clean up as best we can. I feel the best solution would be to announce our withdrawal and negotiate with the Sunni groups on rebuilding some of the infrastructure they continue to destroy as we repair. Do what we can, then leave.

Tharan wrote:I agree with you on the utter incompetence of the Bush administration. I disagree somewhat with the idea of removing the Taliban, it was right to do so, but the disregard to maintenance and resources for Afghanistan in the past few years has almost completely squandered and negated the potential that country had after the invasion.

The Taliban, of course, was never a recognised governmental organisation so stepping across them to get to Bin Laden and Co. seemed reasonable enough to me. The removal of the Taliban (and our presence on Afghanistan in general) was not about terrorism but about oil pipelines and opium crops. The Taliban were in the process of destroying the nation's poppy producton. That didn't suit the US because there's great dollops of money to be made by the CIA is that industry. So, since the Taliban have (or were) pummeled into submission, Afghanistan has become the world's greatest supplier of opium. The opportunity to shut al Quaeda down there was never properly taken. I wonder why.

Iraq, on the other hand, was a fiasco from the very beginning. It was an excerise in hubris, and as an American who did NOT vote for Bush,

Not voting for Bush places you in the American majority.

I will regardless carry some level of shame and responsibility toward the ongoing debacle and its probable negative outcome.

I dont see why. What can you do personally about a corrupt political dynasty?

There really is no good solution there except try to clean up as best we can. I feel the best solution would be to announce our withdrawal and negotiate with the Sunni groups on rebuilding some of the infrastructure they continue to destroy as we repair. Do what we can, then leave.

I essentially agree with that, however, it is devastatingly clear that the US has no intention of ever leaving, much as they never really leave most places. Did you know that the only construction that is on time and on budget is the massive embassy compund they are building in Bagdhad? The size of 80 football fields; a mini city kind of like the "hidden city" in Hong Kong. Plus numerous long term military bases. The US knows damn well what the consequences of that will be; namely, more Bin Laden style objectors to US presence and influence in the middle-east. Events on a domestic level in the US suggest to me that they are preparing for things to get bad on that front and also for the domestic uprising that might follow.

I hold and will continue to hold the view that a rampantly greedy and controlling US is the thing we have to fear the most. But I guess it's easier to trot out slogans about Islamofacists and their hatred of western freedoms than examine that possibility.


Dan Rowden

Not voting for Bush places you in the American majority.

That's funny, seeing as how he won the elections twice. I prefer to think that your "American majority" is mostly just flamboyant, so that their viewpoints are pretty much all you hear.

I dont see why. What can you do personally about a corrupt political dynasty?

I don't know where this kind of talk comes from....perhaps irrationality? There's nothing corrupt about the Bush administration in my view. Sure, they suck sometimes, but "corrupt" is going way overboard.

Anything the administration has done that's been corrupt is generally a conspiracy theory.

I hold and will continue to hold the view that a rampantly greedy and controlling US is the thing we have to fear the most. But I guess it's easier to trot out slogans about Islamofacists and their hatred of western freedoms than examine that possibility.

I suppose it's easy when you read biased reports, and live outside of the US. But when you live here and only read the news from cnn and Fox news (even though they don't go into enough detail), it's not easy to think about the US controlling the world with their greed. Why? Because the government isn't some evil organization. It truly does what it says it's doing, and there aren't really hidden agendas...beyond perhaps politicians trying to get ahead by lying about what they'll do.

It's very easy to trot out slogans about Islamofacists and their hatred of western freedoms because that's exactly what's happening in the world. Islamofacists acting out on their irrational rage. Go to the middle east and see for yourself...it isn't some lie. It isn't overplayed. It's the way it is. It's a threat that can't be stopped by reasoning, but only by killing and making sure that those ideas don't get into the minds of the youth.

It's crazy to come to the forum and see how backwards every political view is. All I can say is you should probably go into the midst of the fighting yourself to see what's actually going on.

sschaula wrote:

Not voting for Bush places you in the American majority.

That's funny, seeing as how he won the elections twice. I prefer to think that your "American majority" is mostly just flamboyant, so that their viewpoints are pretty much all you hear.

I dont see why. What can you do personally about a corrupt political dynasty?

I don't know where this kind of talk comes from....perhaps irrationality? There's nothing corrupt about the Bush administration in my view. Sure, they suck sometimes, but "corrupt" is going way overboard.

Anything the administration has done that's been corrupt is generally a conspiracy theory.

I hold and will continue to hold the view that a rampantly greedy and controlling US is the thing we have to fear the most. But I guess it's easier to trot out slogans about Islamofacists and their hatred of western freedoms than examine that possibility.

I suppose it's easy when you read biased reports, and live outside of the US. But when you live here and only read the news from cnn and Fox news (even though they don't go into enough detail), it's not easy to think about the US controlling the world with their greed. Why? Because the government isn't some evil organization. It truly does what it says it's doing, and there aren't really hidden agendas...beyond perhaps politicians trying to get ahead by lying about what they'll do.

It's very easy to trot out slogans about Islamofacists and their hatred of western freedoms because that's exactly what's happening in the world. Islamofacists acting out on their irrational rage. Go to the middle east and see for yourself...it isn't some lie. It isn't overplayed. It's the way it is. It's a threat that can't be stopped by reasoning, but only by killing and making sure that those ideas don't get into the minds of the youth.

It's crazy to come to the forum and see how backwards every political view is. All I can say is you should probably go into the midst of the fighting yourself to see what's actually going on.

"Hell no, we won't go!"

An excellent video link, Dan.

Obviously too much truth in it for even the majority of "Genius" here to engage in rational thinking.

Dan wrote:

I hold and will continue to hold the view that a rampantly greedy and controlling US is the thing we have to fear the most. But I guess it's easier to trot out slogans about Islamofacists and their hatred of western freedoms than examine that possibility.

Yes.

Scott wrote:

It's very easy to trot out slogans about Islamofacists and their hatred of western freedoms because that's exactly what's happening in the world. Islamofacists acting out on their irrational rage. Go to the middle east and see for yourself...it isn't some lie. It isn't overplayed. It's the way it is. It's a threat that can't be stopped by reasoning, but only by killing and making sure that those ideas don't get into the minds of the youth.

It's crazy to come to the forum and see how backwards every political view is. All I can say is you should probably go into the midst of the fighting yourself to see what's actually going on.

See?

.

sschaula wrote:

Not voting for Bush places you in the American majority.

That's funny, seeing as how he won the elections twice. I prefer to think that your "American majority" is mostly just flamboyant, so that their viewpoints are pretty much all you hear.

You don't seem to be able or willing to make the distinction between winning an election and how many people actually voted for you. How could any serious minded person not have seen the whole Florida thing as the debacle it was?

I dont see why. What can you do personally about a corrupt political dynasty?

I don't know where this kind of talk comes from....perhaps irrationality?

Of course, it must be irrational to think an idiot like George Bush is either corrupt or inept or both. He's a born again Xian; that makes him an idiot right there. But I imagine you vote Repub so nothing I say will matter....

There's nothing corrupt about the Bush administration in my view. Sure, they suck sometimes, but "corrupt" is going way overboard.

You're speaking legalistically; I'm speaking intellectually and morally. If you think the current neo-con administration is anything less than deeply cronyistic, nepotistic, arrogant and deceitful then we are travelling in parallell universes.

Anything the administration has done that's been corrupt is generally a conspiracy theory.

Naturally. The lead up to Iraq was all entirely above board.

I hold and will continue to hold the view that a rampantly greedy and controlling US is the thing we have to fear the most. But I guess it's easier to trot out slogans about Islamofacists and their hatred of western freedoms than examine that possibility.

I suppose it's easy when you read biased reports, and live outside of the US.

That's a funny argument since most of the information I base my views on comes from Americans of various political persuasions.

But when you live here and only read the news from cnn and Fox news (even though they don't go into enough detail), it's not easy to think about the US controlling the world with their greed.

What sort of moron would spend their time watching Fox news?

Why? Because the government isn't some evil organization. It truly does what it says it's doing,

Yeah, right. Even if that were true, and I don't believe it is, what difference does it make to the quality and veracity or appropriateness of what they're actually doing? Do you think, for example, that it is appropriate for Bush to write hundreds of signing statements? Doesn't that make you seriously uncomfortable?

and there aren't really hidden agendas...beyond perhaps politicians trying to get ahead by lying about what they'll do.

Politics is almost entirely made up of such hidden agendas.

It's very easy to trot out slogans about Islamofacists and their hatred of western freedoms because that's exactly what's happening in the world.

That sentiment is expressed in those countries that have been pulverised back into the stone age. It takes about 5 minutes of reflection to understand that fundamentalism of any variety always fills the void when a society has been broken down to a disorganised heap of shit. The freedom they hate the most is the freedom we grant ourselves to influence, control, manipulate, exploit, rip-off and occasionally murder. None of which is to say I disagree with taking action against elements who go beyond mere rhetoric.

Islamofacists acting out on their irrational rage.

I agree with that. What's our excuse then?

Go to the middle east and see for yourself...it isn't some lie. It isn't overplayed. It's the way it is. It's a threat that can't be stopped by reasoning, but only by killing and making sure that those ideas don't get into the minds of the youth.

Let's nuke the region then and be done with it.

It's crazy to come to the forum and see how backwards every political view is. All I can say is you should probably go into the midst of the fighting yourself to see what's actually going on.

It's crazy to me that any human being with a functioning brain could not think Bush corrupt. And your point about the fighting is meaningless. Fighting and war makes everyone insane.

Dan Rowden

Jesus Solway wrote:

Kevin: I would only care insofar is it would have an impact on the survival of wisdom.

L: Which wisdom is that, the wisdom in the certain truth that all things lack inherent existence?

K: Not just that. I am speaking of wisdom of the Infinite. Wisdom of Reality. Enlghtenment.

L: As if the infinite requires Kevin Solway, or anyone in particular, for the survival of its wisdom.

K: What I do is what the Infinite does. So if I want wisdom to survive, then that's what the Infinite wants. How could I possibly be acting in contradiction to the Infinite?

~

K: He [G Dubbya] would be [Genius] if he was also attacking the Christians and the deep love of ignorance in his own country.

These are two very big ifs -- and since I have not seen any supporting evidence for Bush’s Genius, there is none for your acting wisely on the matter.

Hollow rhetoric: "thinking" in a void -- a closed system of emotional prejudice.

K: The ignorance that leads to beliefs like Christianity and Islam - especially the fundamentalist versions of those religions - is the root of all evil.

That's right, the ignorance that leads to beliefs like Christianity and Islam. This is something not only found in your fundies, Kevin. I see it even in you. Fear mongering -- whether that fear is real or imagined is actually secondary if you truly hold that the ignorance that leads to such beliefs is the root of all evil.

.

Leyla Shen wrote: . . . and since I have not seen any supporting evidence for Bush’s Genius, there is none for your acting wisely on the matter.

I don't see the conflict in the middle east as a clash of two equally deluded religions. On the Israeli side there are a whole range of people, including religious crazies. Their strongest opponents are Islamic fundamentalists, or people borrowing from Islamic fundamentalism, like Hezbollah, who want to destroy them.

I don't see this as "fear-mongering", but highlighting just how dangerous Islamic fundamentalism really is. I think a lot of people have a mental block about it, since Islamic fundamentalists are still human, and supposedly can't be all that dangerous. But they are.

Anyone who has to catch an international flight from the U.K at the moment has a small taste of how dangerous they can be.

Islamic fundamentalism is an irrational force of huge proportions. And nothing at all will be achieved by its actions, except the Islamic world will be set back even further.

As you say, it is not the fundamentalism that is the problem, but the ignorance that leads to it.

I think Dan is right to say that the greed and blindness of capitalism is disgusting. That might be what Israel represents. What to do about it? Not what the Arab states are currently doing, that's for sure.

Dan wrote:

I hold and will continue to hold the view that a rampantly greedy and controlling US is the thing we have to fear the most. But I guess it's easier to trot out slogans about Islamofacists and their hatred of western freedoms than examine that possibility.

They are both feeding each other at the moment. I think we need to fear them both.

Having said that, I would personally prefer to live in an American-styled world, for all its imperfections, than an Islamic-styled world, because of its greater emphasis on individual freedom. So although I have no particular interest in the issue and don't really plumb for one side or the other, if it ever came to the crunch, I dare say that I would side with the Americans.

Let's not forget that Islam is by far and away the most backward major religion on the planet and does absolutely nothing for the cause of wisdom, except hamper it. Christianity is bad enough, but Islam is simply dreadful. I'm sure all of us here would hate living in an Islamic state. This forum would have no chance of existing, for example. A lot of us would quickly have our throats slit, if we didn't recant our beliefs and thoughts.

So I, for one, am hoping that the Americans and the West will win the current war against the Islamic fundamentalists and drive them to extinction. Let's hope, though, that we can think of better ways of going about it than the current short-sighted methods.

-

Kevin, it would help if you stopped rolling groups together and tarring them with the same brush. Hizbollah does not have a stated goal of the destruction of Israel. They were formed with the precise purpose of driving Israel out of their occupation of southern Lebanon. Israel did not leave in 2000 as people suggest. Not in any true sense. The UN itself has recorded that Israel has engaged in cross-border attacks, covert insertions and illegal violations of Lebanese air and sea space on an almost daily basis. This is why Hizbollah continues to be pissed of with them. Hamas is the organisation with the formally stated the goal of Israel's dismantling.

But, the real issue is how best to deal with the fanatical element of Islam that does exist and does pose a threat in a way that is uncorrelated to facts and genuine Islamic grievance. Part of that issue is recognising the irrationality and blind prejudice that makes up our actions towards them. Remember that whilst we talk about Islam in this way and make them all sound like crazy terrorists bent on our destruction, it is we who have invaded two Islamic nations and turned them into shitholes. It is we, as proxies, that have quite brutally oppressed a quasi-nation of Arab peoples in the OTs. These are not facts that can be just waved away with convenient rhetorical devices.

The sad fact would appear to be that the rise of Islamic fundamentalism is something neither the US nor Israel actually wants to curtail. They have clearly decided that to get what they want the method shall be that of conquering them. That places us all in jeapardy if you ask me and I'm not all that happy about being placed in jeapardy by nations that are themselves culturally, intellectually and religiously tainted. It also seems blatantly counterproductive as it merely helps feed the mentality. If we keep giving them reasosn to hate us, how then can we turn around and make an issue of the fact that they do?

Madness would appear to be the order of the day all round. Must have something to do with global warming.....people's brains are overheating.


Dan Rowden

Leyla, you are ocillating between cheerleader and motherfigure, shaking her finger and scolding when you think someone should feel bad about their POV. Argue specific points.

drowden wrote:If anyone has cable and a limitless download account, this 1 hour 19 minute video regarding the Occupied Territories might be worth looking at:

Occupied Territories

It does of course treat the Israelis as "oppressors", when, from the Israelis point of view, they are simply trying to survive. I don't think the purpose of the roadblocks and curfews is to "oppress" anyone, but is to reduce the number of Israelis being blown-up. Funnily enough, this possibility was not even mentioned in the documentary.

Dan,

You don't seem to be able or willing to make the distinction between winning an election and how many people actually voted for you. How could any serious minded person not have seen the whole Florida thing as the debacle it was?

Of course I know the difference. They teach us that in middle school here in the US. The votes don't actually count for the win, but for the electoral college, which votes and whoever wins that ends up winning the election. But beyond that...

Any serious minded person wouldn't automatically believe that the lost votes in Florida were a cover up for Bush's loss. There's absolutely no proof of that. It's only an educated guess...and any rational person should know not to rely on such shaky things.

Of course, it must be irrational to think an idiot like George Bush is either corrupt or inept or both. He's a born again Xian; that makes him an idiot right there. But I imagine you vote Repub so nothing I say will matter....

Of course I vote republican. I'm not a communist...ahem...I mean democrat. The government should be for the people, not the people for the government. A democratic society should be free and not oppressed in any way by its government.

There are a lot of people who are born again Christians. I don't think they're automatically idiots, just misled. Some are smart. As you should well know, I'm not a born again Christian.

About Bush himself...what makes him an idiot (beyond his mannerisms and Bushisms)? What makes him corrupt? Or inept? Saying these things is of course very easy, but backing them up with some substance...well...that's the only thing that would ever actually change my mind.

You're speaking legalistically; I'm speaking intellectually and morally. If you think the current neo-con administration is anything less than deeply cronyistic, nepotistic, arrogant and deceitful then we are travelling in parallell universes.

Once again, there's a lot of fluff and no substance which makes it hard to listen or care.

Naturally. The lead up to Iraq was all entirely above board.

I'm definitely not one of those people who thinks we should've done nothing. What are they called? Oh yeah...sitting ducks. Or better yet - targets.

That's a funny argument since most of the information I base my views on comes from Americans of various political persuasions.

It's not a funny argument. You have an outside view. You live on the other side of the globe. Your information may be from an American, but who is to say that American's not full of it? There are definitely a lot of morons in this country. Learned morons, too, that can seem pretty intelligent...until you realize how irrational their views are. And the reasons why they have those views.

Most of the time it's just to be heard.

What sort of moron would spend their time watching Fox news?

It's about the same as any other main news organization. Unless you're watching someone's program on the network, like Bill O'Reilly. That guy's a moron. But when they report the news, it's just the plain news...so of course I watch it and I'm not a moron for it. I also watch any other news network.

It's not like there's actually a good source for information.

Yeah, right. Even if that were true, and I don't believe it is, what difference does it make to the quality and veracity or appropriateness of what they're actually doing? Do you think, for example, that it is appropriate for Bush to write hundreds of signing statements? Doesn't that make you seriously uncomfortable?

Signing statements?

Normal people work for the government. The government is just normal people working together to achieve certain things. Of course some things that go on are fucked up, but generally, the theories of "what the government is really doing" are way off. Like going to war for oil...way off, and there's no proof regardless of whatever Leyla wants to say. Or my favorite one, being that 9-11 was staged by the government. It can make sense in your head...if you're a moron who thinks too highly of his or her own thought processes.

In REAL LIFE the pieces don't fit together so nicely.

Politics is almost entirely made up of such hidden agendas.

Almost.

That sentiment is expressed in those countries that have been pulverised back into the stone age. It takes about 5 minutes of reflection to understand that fundamentalism of any variety always fills the void when a society has been broken down to a disorganised heap of shit. The freedom they hate the most is the freedom we grant ourselves to influence, control, manipulate, exploit, rip-off and occasionally murder. None of which is to say I disagree with taking action against elements who go beyond mere rhetoric.

You think that we've influenced, controlled, manipulated, exploited, ripped off and murdered their freedom? I definitely don't see how.

I agree with that. What's our excuse then?

Defending our country, which was attacked and is constantly a target. It's not so irrational considering that if we choose not to defend ourselves, we'll be attacked again.

Let's nuke the region then and be done with it.

That seems to be the only actual solution. I'm not on the side of those who'd actually go through with it, though. Someone once said something to the effect of "When fighting monsters, be sure you don't become one yourself". The quote may be way off but the meaning is intact.

It's crazy to me that any human being with a functioning brain could not think Bush corrupt. And your point about the fighting is meaningless. Fighting and war makes everyone insane.

Anything we do could be called insane because it's based out of attachments and delusions. But there is a time to fight, and I don't think that makes you insane when you actually step up and do it. I think it's pretty insane to sit back and give commentary on the whole thing.

Anyway, perhaps if you explain why it's crazy to you that I don't think Bush is corrupt, it'd help the both of us. You could become more clear headed about the whole thing, and I could understand your point of view...and if it's rational then maybe I'd share that point of view. But just saying "Wow this is shocking how much our viewpoints differ" doesn't do anything for anyone.

Dan wrote:

DQ: Is it really such a leap between the idea of strapping on a bomb and blowing yourself and others up, and that of, say, the entire Islamic Middle East spontaneously deciding to take matters into their own hands and confront the Israel and the West once and for all, come what may?

DR: It's a leap that even Evel Knievel wouldn't try and make.

Again, what worries me is the almost total silence on the part of mainstream Muslims in objecting to the behaviour of the Islamic fundamentalists. After all, it is their very own religion which is being soiled by the fundamentalists, and yet they don't seem to really care.

To my mind, this suggests that the mainstream Muslims are wavering and don't really know what to believe. At heart, they are just average folk - they want to raise a family and lead a peaceful life peppered with some mild amusements, just like average Americans or Australians. But then they open up the Koran and see the rampant "kill the unbelievers" philosophy staring straight back at them. So they must know, deep down, that Islamic fundamentalism represents the true face of Islam.

Thus, if things keep building the way they are, and the rhetoric about jihad against the West keeps being perpetuated, and regional tensions keep mounting, then I can easily see a sudden polarization of the Arab world and a sudden shift to radicalized fundamentalism by the mainstream majority. If that occurs, then the collective will to destroy Israel altogether and confront the West directly can be whipped up very easily.

-

Dan, terrorism did not begin with the invasion of Afghanistan. Do you remember all the plane hijackings of the 70's? How can you fully expect the world to quanticize the different groups who have at least some level of cause to harass or destroy Israel? It is no different than the rest of the world inevitably seeing me as an American, regardless of political affiliation, and thus represented by my government and its hubris and incompetance. I bear some responsibility for my fellow Americans, whether I agree with them or not. It is the commonality that gives us the moniker "Americans."

And you continue to paint Israel as the aggressor. If Hizbollah disarmed, as called for them to do in UN resolution 1790 where no milita outside of the Lebanese army shall be armed nor be supplied by outside forces, how do you think Israel would respond? Would they continue "covert incursions?" For what purpose and goal? It is nonsensical.

On the other hand, there is no doubt in my mind that Hizbollah will not fully disarm. Hypothetically, if the Israeli army were magically disarmed (it won't happen because they are a sovereign state, unlike Hizbollah), that country would be immediately flooded with Muslim fighters from all over the region and an Israeli bloodbath would ensue.

Maybe certain people reading that have qualms about me using the descriptor "Muslim." But for the fighters, especially on the Muslim side, there is a very strong identification with religious destiny. It is an apt descriptor. The Israeli soldiers tend to be more secular, though not all. Perhaps every Muslim is not a suicide bomber, but every suicide bomber is damn sure a Muslim. That is simply a reality, whether an person's sense of civil liberties might be offended as a result or not.

Dan,

The sad fact would appear to be that the rise of Islamic fundamentalism is something neither the US nor Israel actually wants to curtail.

That's a good point. Having a strong presence of Islamic terrorism in the world obviously helps to keep Western conservative Governments in power. We all know how Bush's ratings went through the roof after 9/11.

However, I wonder if Islamic fundamentalism wouldn't have steadily risen anyway, even without our help. The core basis of Islam, as expounded in their scriptures, is killing unbelievers and converting everyone to Islam. So if they are going to take their religion seriously, they are going to have to do everything they can to promote Islamic fundamentalism in the world. Just our very existence as unbelievers, no matter how we behave, is cause enough for them to be hostile towards us.

I wonder what an Islamic fundamentalist would do with himself if everyone in the world was already converted to Islamic fundamentalism? He would have no purpose in his life and nothing to do. He would have to kill himself.

But then again, I suppose they could easily whip up a civil war amongst themselves if they wanted to. They could make up some pretext, such as disputing which is the proper line of succession from the Prophet, or what was the colour of the Prophet's hair. All will be well.

-

David Quinn wrote

Having said that, I would personally prefer to live in an American-styled world, for all its imperfections, than an Islamic-styled world, because of its greater emphasis on individual freedom.

In some ways, I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I would rather have the freedom to decide whether to wear a burqua than to feel that I had to wear one. It would be wonderful to wear a burqua on a bad hair day, for instance. But I would hate to feel that I had to wear one for protection.

The forced wearing of burquas is HIS-LAM not ISLAM. This is why females in Jordan and Turkey can dress in somewhat a more western way than women in Saudi Arabia -- in public, at least -- or Pakistan. Pity. Pakistan back in the sixties was progressive.

On the other hand, I also resent the American dictatorship. I resent mass group think based in total ignorance. I know this is far fetched but what if Israel moved to Nebraska and the Middle East calmed down -- no more Israel to destroy. Then, what? That dominance would have to be channelled somewhere. What if the US decided to dominate Europe and Canada and Australia? What if the US would not tolerate the dole? There is little tolerance for welfare in this country. What if the US decided to muscle Australia into complete so called conservatism and Christianity?

I am not excusing terrorism or Islamic extremism or hatred but they might feel somewhat how you would feel if the US was imposing itself on you.

On the whole, I am in entire agreement with Dan Rowden. It is obvious that he has looked hard and long into an abyss. Because such intensive study does become introspective. He has not written anything "off the cuff."

He is also correct that the majority of Americans did not elect George Bush. The first time, Gore won. The second time, he was elected by Christian conservatives who got out the vote big time. It is also ironic that just after the last presidential election, many Americans to wake up to the big lie. Too late. Dude is in office.

The Bush years have been very ruinous for the US and much of the rest of the world. The WTC destruction was bad enough. Eight years of Bush kind of finished what Al Qaeda started. Even the US neo-cons agree with this.

The boy looks very stupid now. All you see of him are some quickies of him shouting some inane things. Kind of like the president of Iran. Total butthole.

I cannot imagine how the next government will repair all the damage done. I am not sure it can be repaired. It always made sense for the US to go after bin Laden and other murdering crappos. Going into Iraq never made sense. All lies. I was home from work when I witnessed Colin Powell lying to the UN.

Bush just looks like a cartoon.

Faizi

It's so strange that in political discussions, having a colored view is seen as intelligent and looking at the facts alone is avoided at all costs.

drowden wrote:Hizbollah does not have a stated goal of the destruction of Israel.

That doesn't mean that Hezbollah, its supporters and its suppliers don't want to destroy Israel.

They were formed with the precise purpose of driving Israel out of their occupation of southern Lebanon.

That was pretty much achieved. According the U.N, Israel had completely withdrawn from southern Lebanon.

. . . covert insertions and illegal violations of Lebanese air and sea space on an almost daily basis.

Most of that would be down to spying, some accidental. The Israelis are trying to get a look at what kind of arsenal of weapons is being arrayed against them. Can't say I blame them for that.

. . . it is we who have invaded two Islamic nations and turned them into shitholes.

I remember that Iraq was also firing missiles at Israel. There are karmic consequences to such activities, and one of them is that your country is likely to be invaded and destabilized.

The sad fact would appear to be that the rise of Islamic fundamentalism is something neither the US nor Israel actually wants to curtail.

Well yes, and they don't want to curtail the delusions of Christianity, Judaism, or capitalism in their own countries either.

They can't very well try to convince other peoples not to believe stupid things if they believe stupid things themselves - like creationism or the existence of God or The Dollar.

If we keep giving them reasosn to hate us, how then can we turn around and make an issue of the fact that they do?

You are right. The West should act in a noble, rational, and fair way that earns respect.

That will go a long way, but it still won't earn everyone's respect. Even if everyone in the West were a fully enlightened Buddha, we will still be viewed as evil non-believers by fundamentalists.

leadership in Iran is Islamic fundamentalist, which means, in theory at least, that they place a far higher priority on serving the Prophet than any worldly considerations.

Iran is a Shi'te nation. In Shi'ism, the allegience is more to Ali than to Muhammad. Very different religion from Sunni Islam.

I think the government of Iran is very worldly and has a high priority on worldly considerations.

Faizi

Conclusion: Invite young intelligent Muslims to express their views on an equivalent of a Genius Forum, thus engaging their reasoning about what they value and also bolstering their confidence to speak publicly. This will create a shift in Islamic public opinion, and make it more difficult for the very destructive Muslims to continue mob-rule, and in effect limit the ability for this element to flourish. Although the invitation comes from "unbelievers" and will be distrusted, persisting with a relaxed, rational and unstressful attitude will provide a subconscious model for the youths to reflect on - a contrast against the destructive element.

Where the mob screams Kill, the diplomatic element in the mob shouts out Gaol, and then Trial, and then Discussion.

I am totally against tolerant attitudes to the Muslim religion. It is the old give them and inch and they'll then assume they can take a mile- when we refuse to give them the mile, they become resentful and terrorism is a result. Better off just saying no from the start. The Muslim religion is totally anti-modern, so there can never be a workable compromise. They will have to be forced to change.

DavidQuinn000 wrote:Dan wrote:

I hold and will continue to hold the view that a rampantly greedy and controlling US is the thing we have to fear the most. But I guess it's easier to trot out slogans about Islamofacists and their hatred of western freedoms than examine that possibility.

They are both feeding each other at the moment. I think we need to fear them both.

I agree.

Having said that, I would personally prefer to live in an American-styled world, for all its imperfections, than an Islamic-styled world, because of its greater emphasis on individual freedom. So although I have no particular interest in the issue and don't really plumb for one side or the other, if it ever came to the crunch, I dare say that I would side with the Americans.

Oh, hell yes; I agree with that as well. If it came down to a choice of who one would prefer to see prevail, the "west" is the obvious choice. Hopefully it isn't going to come to that. Those that argue that it already has are indulging in self-serving hyperbole.

Let's not forget that Islam is by far and away the most backward major religion on the planet and does absolutely nothing for the cause of wisdom, except hamper it.

All religon does nothing but hamper wisdom. I personally don't see Islam as worse than Judaism or Xianity in that regard. It's simply that the growth of secularism has been faster in Xian nations than in most Islamic ones. But that growth exists and we have chosen to poison rather than fertilise it.

Christianity is bad enough, but Islam is simply dreadful. I'm sure all of us here would hate living in an Islamic state. This forum would have no chance of existing, for example.

I certainly wouldn't, but then, nor would I want to live in most of contemporary USA either. Naturyl lives in Alabama; ask him what that's like sometime.

A lot of us would quickly have our throats slit, if we didn't recant our beliefs and thoughts.

I don't know. If they looked at Misogyny Unlimited first we might be proclaimed as cultural heros in some places :)

So I, for one, am hoping that the Americans and the West will win the current war against the Islamic fundamentalists and drive them to extinction. Let's hope, though, that we can think of better ways of going about it than the current short-sighted methods.

Indeed let us hope that very thing, because we are explicitly not driving them to extinction. We are driving them into life and abundance. There has been, and is, for example, a growth in secularism in Iran amongst the general population. Our current behaviour and attitude is such that you may as well consign that movement to the flames. We have probably blown that completely. Funny how we talk about wanting to keep the fundies down and even being prepared to exterminate them, but Saddam Hussien was a horrid, evil madman because he was doing much the same thing.

Funny how the world works...


Dan Rowden

Marsha wrote:

What if the US decided to dominate Europe and Canada and Australia? What if the US would not tolerate the dole? There is little tolerance for welfare in this country. What if the US decided to muscle Australia into complete so called conservatism and Christianity?

I am not excusing terrorism or Islamic extremism or hatred but they might feel somewhat how you would feel if the US was imposing itself on you.

Most likely. The question is, how much can we attribute Islamic terrorism to US/Western imperialism and how much to the teachings of Islam itself? That's difficult to answer, but one thing we know for sure is that their scriptures openly preach hatred and murder of unbelievers.

This is what makes be balk at placing all the blame on America.

On the whole, I am in entire agreement with Dan Rowden. It is obvious that he has looked hard and long into an abyss. Because such intensive study does become introspective. He has not written anything "off the cuff."

I have the greatest respect for Dan, but I hardly think that studying Middle East politics is a case of looking long and hard into the abyss. Not unless you are quirkily describing the politics of the Middle East as an "abyss".

cIran is a Shi'te nation. In Shi'ism, the allegience is more to Ali than to Muhammad. Very different religion from Sunni Islam.

In what way?

-