GENIUS FORUMS

Does that make sense?

It seems that while awake I can function rationally and with some wisdom, yet my dreams are filled with vivid fears, irrationality and just crazy shit that I can't figure out.

I don't give them much thought, they don't worry me, but it would be nice to have some symmetry between me-awake and me-asleep...

What do you think?

By paying more attention to your dream state, you invariably signal your subconscious to filter itself, in hopes of making the abstract a little easier to digest. Inversely, as you pay more attention to the messages your subconscious mind is sending, your waking state will also become clearer (higher and higher consciousness). As your dreams become clearer, you may also find that they can even become precognitive (the height of symmetry). To translate the often ambiguous and contradictory, try to keep a journal filled with dream imagery. Delve into surrealist art. Free associate conflicting subject matter. Utilize various techniques to combine both brain hemispheres, to open up the mind.

Average, I would say that you are fortunate. In my teens, I put a great deal of effort into becoming able to control my dreams. I did that by noticing if that which was going on around me was possible. If something was not possible, I knew it was a dream, and I got full control over the dream. Gaining full control over the dream stifles the mechanism that dreams are there for, and has a highly depressive reaction on the brain. My brain did counter my efforts, and my dreams are quite realistic - although not as much as when I was actively trying to control my dreams. Still, with that much realism, it can be quite bothersome to have to sort out whether an activity was actually done or just dreamed.

Of course when awakened during a dream, it's easier to figure out, but sometimes more annoying. Like dreaming that the alarm went off, I woke up, got out of bed, started getting ready, and after I was dressed, then alarm clock actually goes off, then I have to get up and get dressed again. Really annoying.

I think the contents of the subconscious boil up during dreams, translated into various semi-random scenarios. It's certainly not something I would worry about or try to control.

You might be interested in doing some conscious dreaming, which is not the same as trying to control your dreams. I would suggest you check out Robert Moss (Conscious-Dreaming-Spiritual-Path-Everyday ).

average wrote:Does that make sense?

It seems that while awake I can function rationally and with some wisdom, yet my dreams are filled with vivid fears, irrationality and just crazy shit that I can't figure out.

I don't give them much thought, they don't worry me, but it would be nice to have some symmetry between me-awake and me-asleep...

What do you think?

It's all about the dream world, dude. The question is, are you using your dreams to influence your day to day life? If you are, then you are on the right track. Don't get caught in the web of a society that says nothing unscientific can have any value whatsoever. That's where you can really come up with something insightful, ignore the conventions and act on something that comes from within yourself. (I know, I know, just b.s. but I'm just saying that I think dreams can help you figure out where to go with your day-to-day life, that's for me personally) Don't worry if you go the wrong way, or you are going to sell yourself short merely for the sake of convention. I'm not sure if any of that applies to you, but for me, and giving myself a little pep talk here..

You might be interested in doing some conscious dreaming, which is not the same as trying to control your dreams.

It would need to have absolutely nothing to do with control, because lucid dreaming is not what I want. I can't think of a better way to kill the spontaneity of dreaming than to have any kind of control. My worry would be that nothing really interesting would ever happen, because I'd always have the option to change the dream if things weren't going the way I wanted them to. To have such an option would potentially render the appeal of dreaming moot.

There's also a potentially interesting analogy to the Hindu idea of Brahman (the sleeping god whose dream is the Universe) here, but I'll leave that to those who can see it.

I might check out the link later. It does sound intriguing.

It would need to have absolutely nothing to do with control, because lucid dreaming is not what I want. I can't think of a better way to kill the spontaneity of dreaming than to have any kind of control. My worry would be that nothing really interesting would ever happen, because I'd always have the option to change the dream if things weren't going the way I wanted them to. To have such an option would potentially render the appeal of dreaming moot.

No, it isn't lucid dreaming. He is well aware that the source of dreams can't really be controlled for the ego's pleasure and to try to do so is a futile endeavor. But if you are really interested, his method is to enter (or re-enter) the dream state consciously, to unravel clues you either missed, didn't understand or just want to explore. The content isn't under you're control but the conscious awareness allows you to interact with the dream in ways that would otherwise not be available to you.

How do you "enter (or re-enter) the dream state consciously?" I don't have the money to buy his book, so if you know, could you tell me?

Unidian wrote:It would need to have absolutely nothing to do with control, because lucid dreaming is not what I want. I can't think of a better way to kill the spontaneity of dreaming than to have any kind of control. My worry would be that nothing really interesting would ever happen, because I'd always have the option to change the dream if things weren't going the way I wanted them to. To have such an option would potentially render the appeal of dreaming moot.

I've experimented with lucid dreaming in the past and in all my experiences I only ever had limited control over the dream. The control was strongest over my dream self, less so on the "external" dream environment. Thus, unfortunately or otherwise, it wasn't that unusual for my desires to go unfulfilled. Just one example: I would try to fly to a specific place but be prevented from reaching my destination by gusts of wind. There was also still plenty of unpredictable and bizarre events occurring throughout most of my lucid dreams. From what I've read of other's lucid dreams, being only partially in control of things is very common.

The control I had, and the actions I took seemed to be very spontaneous too. Maybe when you feel less limited in your abilities, and less afraid of the consequences, and perhaps more in tune with your deepest truest desires, just generally less inhibited, your actions can be more spontaneous and authentic. Being able to control my dreams and consciously live out some of my wildest fantasies and wield supernatural powers certainly didn't remove any of the appeal of dreaming for me, quite the opposite, it was usually intensely exciting and fulfilling. Flying was utterly exhilarating, perched between joy and wonder and the fear that comes from one's body streaking through the air high above the ground.

There was a little game I'd play just before I'd wake from a lucid dream. I'd try to guess, from within my dream, in what position my real body was lying in my bed. Where my hands were, if I were on my side, stomach, back etc. I often got it completely wrong, it was quite interesting and amusing.

Jason wrote:I've experimented with lucid dreaming in the past

How did you go about initiating these types of dreams?

Laird wrote:

Jason wrote:I've experimented with lucid dreaming in the past

How did you go about initiating these types of dreams?

I kept a dream log. A pad by my bed in which I wrote down anything I could remember about any dream I had during the night. I did this, consistently, the moment I woke up, even if it was in the middle of the night. Without trying I naturally tend to remember at least some fragments of my dreams every single morning, so that was my starting point. As I began recording my dreams the frequency of recall increased until I was remembering many dreams per night with greater and greater detail. During the afternoon, and also again just before going to bed the next night, I would read through my log from the previous night/s to refresh my memory.

After doing this for a while one night I just "woke up" in my dream. I was conscious that I was dreaming and I had a level of awareness and self-awareness that I don't remember ever having before. A sort of being really present in the moment, in the dream. It only lasted for about ten seconds before I woke up the first time. It really is an amazing and exciting experience. I still remember it now, the actual setting doesn't sound exciting though: I found myself in the local Safeway(Woolworths) near the sliding exit/entry doors, talking with a mate's parents.

I continued on with the dream log and the lucid dreams became longer, more regular, and more controllable. This was quite a few years ago, I think I may have reached a maximum of about 5-10 minutes of pretty continuous lucidity after maybe several months. Of course it's hard to say how long it actually lasted, subjectively it felt that long. Lucidity was broken by waking up or slipping back into a less conscious state.

Once I became more accomplished I usually entered into the lucid dream by asking myself if I was dreaming, and then attempting to will myself to levitate. Once I began levitating I knew for sure that I was dreaming and it took off, literally, from there. I also experienced the false awakening experiences, sometimes multiple false awakenings, thinking I had gotten up from bed and eaten my breakfast only to find I was still dreaming and going through that three or more times in a row. That could be quite disturbing even once I had really woken up. Also I maybe felt like I didn't get as restful sleep perhaps.

After some time I probably just couldn't keep the discipline up of writing my dreams down and so let the dream log slide, and also the false awakenings weren't very fun, and I still could have bad dreams that were lucid which weren't very enjoyable either. Without the log I slid back into normal dreaming, which is how it has stayed ever since. This thread has inspired a bit, I'm considering trying to start a dream log again.

Jason wrote:Once I became more accomplished I usually entered into the lucid dream by asking myself if I was dreaming, and then attempting to will myself to levitate.

Did you make this questioning a conscious habit that you practiced at all times including in your waking life?

Laird wrote:

Jason wrote:Once I became more accomplished I usually entered into the lucid dream by asking myself if I was dreaming, and then attempting to will myself to levitate.

Did you make this questioning a conscious habit that you practiced at all times including in your waking life?

No I don't believe that such a habit made up any large part of my attempts to obtain lucid dreams. It seems now that I almost solely questioned whether I was dreaming(as a way to attempt to lucidly dream) when I was actually dreaming. I can't pinpoint exactly how I managed to ask that question only when I was dreaming. It's possible that I became aware of something in my dream that wouldn't usually happen in real life. Actually, now I recall that in one dream I was in a room in my house but the room was different somehow, like the walls were placed differently or something compared to normal and that alerted me, and the attempt at levitation to verify it was a dream started from there. I can't say for sure if such a method was common for me though.

But then believe it or not I do just in general try to will myself to fly from time to time, and wonder if "real life" is all a dream, not in any attempt to lucidly dream though. I just haven't given up on the possibility of will-generated flight or that "real life" is all a dream or simulation etc. But I try to take off from the ground, not from the side of tall buildings.

Thanks for sharing your experiences Jason. They were very interesting.

I occasionally enter into lucid dreams too. It seems to be a pretty spontaneous thing, although there was a period that lasted for about three days last year where I intentionally brought them on every night by mentally repeating just prior to falling asleep a list of tests that I wanted to perform in the lucid dreaming state - tests like "am I breathing normally?" and "do I feel pain when I pinch myself?". I haven't been able to repeat my success with that method on a second attempt at it although I eventually had a lucid dream about two weeks after starting it. For the record, the answer to the first question was invariably "yes" and to the second, "no". So my tip is: if you want to know whether or not you're dreaming, pinch yourself. No pain = hello dreamland.

Jason wrote:But then believe it or not I do just in general try to will myself to fly from time to time, and wonder if "real life" is all a dream, not in any attempt to lucidly dream though. I just haven't given up on the possibility of will-generated flight or that "real life" is all a dream or simulation etc. But I try to take off from the ground, not from the side of tall buildings.

Perhaps you would have better success if you started referring to yourself as "Neo".

Laird wrote:So my tip is: if you want to know whether or not you're dreaming, pinch yourself. No pain = hello dreamland.

Maybe it is possible to feel pain from pinching yourself in a dream, I don't think you can rule it out. Self-fulfilling prophecies may be quite likely in an environment that is both wholly created and tested by the same mind.

It's like the placebo effect crossed with feedback or something...oh look I've gone cross-eyed.

Laird wrote:

Jason wrote:But then believe it or not I do just in general try to will myself to fly from time to time, and wonder if "real life" is all a dream, not in any attempt to lucidly dream though. I just haven't given up on the possibility of will-generated flight or that "real life" is all a dream or simulation etc. But I try to take off from the ground, not from the side of tall buildings.

Perhaps you would have better success if you started referring to yourself as "Neo".

You can call me "The One", Laird......or should I say Agent Smith! But seriously, I think such questions and doubts about reality can be very philosophically important. Although judging by some of the things you've recently posted in other threads, which I can't currently find, you may disagree...

Jason wrote:Maybe it is possible to feel pain from pinching yourself in a dream, I don't think you can rule it out.

Sure, you're right. I'm simply going with my experience so far which has been consistently that I feel no pain.

Jason wrote:But seriously, I think such questions and doubts about reality can be very philosophically important. Although judging by some of the things you've recently posted in other threads, which I can't currently find, you may disagree...

Absolutely not. I'm in full agreement with you. I wouldn't dare to mention on this forum most of the things that I suspect to be true about reality.

Laird wrote:Absolutely not. I'm in full agreement with you. I wouldn't dare to mention on this forum most of the things that I suspect to be true about reality.

Ya know, sarcasm doesn't always come across clearly here, and if that's not sarcasm then you need to tell us all what you suspect to be true about reality or else I might have to call you a "chicken". You wouldn't want that now would you? In fact for every day you leave us in suspense I'll eat a steak Mr Vegetarian!




(ps. I'm really a vegetarian so I can't eat steak dammit!)

(OhpleasejusttellmewhatyouthinkistrueaboutrealityLairdthecuriosityiskillingmejustPMitotmeifyouhaveto!)

SQUAWK! SQUAWK!

Seriously though, I'm sorry that I even wrote that.

And yet you didn't erase it. I'm interested... but I do understand your reluctance to float anything in these waters. I'll just quiz you privately. :)

Unidian wrote:And yet you didn't erase it.

Yeah, that was a bit foolish - the only reason that I didn't is because the thought that it was possible to do so didn't even cross my mind.

Unidian wrote:I'm interested... but I do understand your reluctance to float anything in these waters.

I'll explain why I'm not going to share my suspicions then, because I think that it's only fair that since I've put out a "teaser", I deliver on it in some way. My mind is roughly compartmentalised into two different experience-of-reality/belief-systems. The first is the one that these days I ostensibly inhabit most of the time, and which I assume for the most part to be the true, correct one when posting here. It's pretty much what one might describe as "normal". The second is one in which "normality" is an illusion and a trick, and is a particularly frightening one. Moreover it ascribes a certain nature and intent to other people in general, and this is why there's no good reason for me to describe it publicly. There are two possibilities. The first is that my suspicions are correct. In that case, you all already know your nature and I'm telling you nothing new, and moreover you're all secretly scorning me for being sucked into the illusion in the first place. So clearly nobody gains anything by me publicising my suspicions in the case that they're true. The second possibility is that my suspicions are false and delusional. In that case, you all will recognise that I'm ascribing a false nature to you and, whilst I can never know definitively that they are wrong, you all will, and all that I will achieve is to demonstrate to the forum that some of my thoughts are particularly strange, in which case I'll lose most of the credibility that I might have attained through my hard and careful attempts to contribute rationally and meaningfully to this place over the course of the better part of a year now. I value my credibility and I'm not about to jeopardise it any more than I already have done by writing this.

Edit: by the way, anyone who's ever had a particularly bad acid trip will probably get the general gist of what I'm talking about.

Unidian wrote:I'll just quiz you privately. :)

I'm happy to share privately with you.

The only reason I can think of for being potentially embarrassed by one's views is if they are actually embarrassing.

Let me put it to you this way then, Dan. Would you describe in explicit detail on this forum the last act of sex that you engaged in? That's the way that I feel about this.

He would, but the goat refused to sign a release.

Laird wrote:Let me put it to you this way then, Dan. Would you describe in explicit detail on this forum the last act of sex that you engaged in? That's the way that I feel about this.

I'm at a complete loss as to how to respond to that. Is your relationship to reality special and intimate in some way, then?