GENIUS FORUMS

What are the best ways to design an intentional community for the purposes of improving our understanding of reality?

I am trying to put together such a community, and I find there are a bewildering number of strategies and options. I am considering especially where to live, how the social system would encourage newcomers to join and current members to stay, and how to maintain a decent standard of living with a small number of members having very limited social and economic intercourse with the outside world.

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Well, well...



-raymond-
Lykaios - What are the best ways to design an intentional community for the purposes of improving our understanding of reality?

-tomas-
First thing, use a non-threatening name. This "Lykaios" jibberish is a non-starter. Try Raymond on for size.




-raymond-
I am trying to put together such a community, and I find there are a bewildering number of strategies and options.

-tomas-
Start playing Powerball (the lottery), should you win, then you'd have some "seed money" to begin your endeavor.




-raymond-
I am considering especially where to live,

-tomas-
You'll have to make a deal with the governing authorities - see David Koresh (the wacko from Waco) for example. Or the Jim Jones Complex in Guyana, South America (old CIA training facility before the "followers" moved in.)




-raymond-
how the social system would encourage newcomers to join and current members to stay,

-tomas-
Whatever you do, don't wave (flaunt) the Quran, King James Bibles, Buddha statues, Talmud, Torah incense, and other assorted religious malarky.




-raymond-
and how to maintain a decent standard of living with a small number of members having very limited social and economic intercourse with the outside world.

-tomas-
You may have to ask the Hopi's at Four Corners, the Eskimos, the Sammi's of northern Lapland, the Mongols, perhaps what is left of native Indians in the rainforests of The Amazonia.

Skip the Aboriginal Tribes of Australia, the criminal class of John Howard's ilk is taking the last of their virgin lands for uranium mining exploration. (thanks Prince Charles Trust)

Just thought of this, try Venezuela! (really) - The president of that country, Chavez, has no liking of the Anglo/Dutch/American way of doing business. Just remember, however, he could be knocked off at any time by British, Jesuit, Israeli, CIA, Russian, French intelligence agencies.

If you have rich relatives, perhaps they could drop a sweaty wad of cashier's checks into your outstretched offering plate.

You'll have to deal with the government (the United Nations) because the fix is in. All land is spoken for - in other words its whats "happening" in Kosovo, Iraq, Ecuador, Peru, Brazil, Gaza, and so on.

Try Antarctica - when it melts.

The UN administers the vast areas so you'll need their assent ;-)

Get all the natives off however, by any and all means, then the corporations come in and say, "There are no people on the land"... the Patent Office from whatever country comes in and divides it up (surveys the land) and cedes it (land grants whatever) to the corporation for a penny an acre exploration rights.

See the American West for an example. The largest mass-hanging in US history took place in Minnesota, ordered by none other than Abraham Lincoln, a few days before the Emancipation Proclamation. The great Sioux Nation's elders were told to go west or die...

All those who refused to "obey" are ordered to go to Reservations set aside at the point of a gun barrel, refused provisions for the sojourn, given small pox blankets, etc. Once there, (speaking of now) they are handed whiskey, methamphetamine, cocaine or all the myriad types of psychiatric drugs for their particular "anti-societal behaviors". The under-age girls are raped by white men and their sons... quite literally... nothing is done.

No Child Left Behind will be looking for the children to indoctrinate.

Apply for a birth certificate, marriage certificate? You belong to the government.


God Save The Queen

God Bless America

All Arabs off the Jewish Homeland

The Aborigine must assimilate

Bow down before the Pope.

Romans Chapter 13 will be your rallying cry... though Paul implied it was none other than the corporation that was founded about 67 B.C. in northern Italia.

There is nothing new under the sun.


ps- In any case, good luck with your endeavor... i've heard these stories (dreams) from the 1960s on, well-meaning peoples desiring to "get away from it all."



Tomas (the tank)
Prince of Jerusalem
16 Degree
Scottish Rite Free Mason




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Lykaios wrote:

I am trying to put together such a community, and I find there are a bewildering number of strategies and options. I am considering especially where to live, how the social system would encourage newcomers to join and current members to stay, and how to maintain a decent standard of living with a small number of members having very limited social and economic intercourse with the outside world.

Stay in the civilization, but collectively find interesting ways to leech off the existing social system, or find tolerable jobs that can be done in the society. Groups of like-minded individuals could also invest in real estate in developing parts of the city that are going to increase in value, and then after ten years, when the value of their property increases, they could sell off the property, and take the profits to advance the cause of wisdom through various ways, which would be determined by the members involved.

The investment in real estate is one of the easiest ways to build wealth without doing alot of labor or sacrificing your soul in the process, just some phone calls, a few meetings, and some paper work.

For instance: In my city, to buy a combo in the downtown areas costs between $250 000-$350 000, but on the outskirts, and in the more developing parts, the prices are as low as $90 000 - $125 000, However, as the population in my small city increases, so does the demand, and so does the price.

A $90 000 Condo could double in price in a decade depending on the level of population increase. Also, the western part of Canada is experiencing a real estate problem now because prices are so high, so many people may start moving to my city eventually to find cheaper real estate prices, as many people have already started to, but ironically if this happens, then the prices around here will increase too, (lol) but if you are sitting on a piece of property that you bought for $90 000, and its now worth $180 000, then that's big profit for you.

Its like the stock market, but with more financial security in my opinion. In essence, you're making money off of people's lack of economic understanding, they are sort of ripping themselves off, with an overpriced mortgage. In Western Canada, its crazy, the people are willing to pay $500 000 for a small bungalow or split entry home, what madness in overpopulated cities...

Ryan R wrote:Stay in the civilization, but collectively find interesting ways to leech off the existing social system, or find tolerable jobs that can be done in the society.

The trouble with that strategy, despite the fact that it or one like it is necessary before the community attracts critical mass, is that I believe it tends to require greater group solidarity to avoid dissolving. Still, thanks for the tip on real estate. I definitely think that acquiring a solid financial base will be very important to attract and retain members - modern people might be willing to live in 2nd world conditions in an effort to further their beliefs, but no one wants to live their lives without electricity or flush toilets.

You say the purpose of this community is that of "improving our understanding of reality". Why can't that be done as things stand?

Dan Rowden wrote:You say the purpose of this community is that of "improving our understanding of reality". Why can't that be done as things stand?

I admit that my intentions do imply that "improving our understanding of reality" "can't be done as things stand," but that isn't necessarily the case; I am far from certain about the fate of this society. Yet, no matter what method or perspective I use to analyze the current situation and project likely trends, I come to the conclusion that this civilization is already withering and destined to fail.

I agree it's failing, but without a clear understanding of why that is so, do you think an alternative can work? It didn't for Southey and Coleridge.

What makes you think I don't have a clear understanding of why this civilization is failing? In any event, while I'm not very keen on discussing the death throes of modern society right now, I do have a fairly good idea for why most intentional communes ultimately fail. If you check Principles of Group Solidarity, by Michael Hechter, you'll find what I think is a pretty good outline for why people, acting as rational economic agents, make decisions to join, remain in, and leave groups. One little nugget that I considered important enough to transcribe onto my computer was a 1983 study by John Hall ("Social Structure and Commitment: A Reexamination of the Kanter Thesis." Dept. of Sociology, University of Missouri) which found that four factors - and only four factors - were strongly associated with communal longevity. In descending order of importance, these are:

1. A common ethnicity and/or foreign language spoken by members
2. Hierarchical authority based on differential moral status
3. Uniforms
4. Obligatory confession

That stated, I hope you'll answer the question I put at the start of this thread, and imagine, if you will, that you had decided to create an intentional community, and how you would set it up. What plans would you make to help it grow, survive, and maintain a character congenial to your values and attitudes? Or alternatively, imagine that there were several intentional communities available for you to join, and you decided that you were going to join one; on what basis would you decide to join or reject various communities?

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I was just thinking (oh, really?)


Hey Raymond, er, Lykaios...

Wait till you meet clyde (mr. do no harm)... let the brainstorming begin!


sheesh.


Tomas

7

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Lykaios wrote:

I come to the conclusion that this civilization is already withering and destined to fail.

When you say this civilization, which civilization do you mean? The biggest problems I see is finding more clean, safe, and efficient types of energy, but there is a lot of research going into this, and discoveries are being made.

Also, industrial farming is a problem, but only the annuals cause soil erosion, and many fruits are perennials, and are grown with little or no harm to the soil.

Humanity maybe able to prevent a doomsday scenario with a bit of scientific innovation, reduced levels of reproduction, and selective crop growing based on how little damage is done to soil.

I think the current political, economic system in many developed, democratic countries runs fairly efficient, and there no reason to abandon the current system. Reform is all that is needed, and it is happening now.

Lykaios wrote: four factors - and only four factors - were strongly associated with communal longevity. In descending order of importance, these are:

1. A common ethnicity and/or foreign language spoken by members
2. Hierarchical authority based on differential moral status
3. Uniforms
4. Obligatory confession

That certainly makes it sound like you have to have a religious cult, if you want it to last.

Ryan R wrote:The biggest problems I see is finding more clean, safe, and efficient types of energy, but there is a lot of research going into this, and discoveries are being made.

Ryan, I am least concerned about the energy crisis. If oil shortages and pollution were the only problems plaguing the modern world, then I do agree that solutions would be found. As it stands, however, I think these problems are really only a few pebbles sitting on top of a mountain.

Even assuming that I'm wrong - will the world really lose anything through my experimentation? So again, I'd like to ask, what would you do if you were to set up an intentional community?

DHodges wrote:

Lykaios wrote: four factors - and only four factors - were strongly associated with communal longevity. In descending order of importance, these are:

1. A common ethnicity and/or foreign language spoken by members
2. Hierarchical authority based on differential moral status
3. Uniforms
4. Obligatory confession

That certainly makes it sound like you have to have a religious cult, if you want it to last.

To a degree. I think that any ideology is useful in coordinating human action and promoting altruistic behavior, but religious forms tend to be more successful because (at least, according to Rodney Stark's arguments in books such as The Future of Religion) they offer "compensators" to people who accept them.

What that list above definitely suggests is that the standard eco-village is doomed - its members tend to speak the same language as those outside the community, which is most detrimental to communal longevity, and most eco-villages are also explicitly egalitarian. Although I admit that I am not much inclined to support elaborate and rigid status hierarchies, by eschewing even the simplest forms of hierarchy (e.g. dividing partial from full members, or children from adults) as well as failing to institute some form of standardized dress or a tradition of admitting antisocial behavior, the standard efforts to create an intentional community seem doomed from the outset. The most successful intentional communities are to be found in Amish country.

Lykaios wrote:

what would you do if you were to set up an intentional community?

The huge problem with intentional communities is that they are totally dependent on the continued cooperation of their members, and considering of how fragile and fickle most folks are, all ones efforts could be futile from the outset no matter what plan of action is taken.

However, taking in consideration how skeptical I am with the plan actually working, here is a possible option you can think about and criticize - It seems to me that if an intentional community was to work, you would have to have a certain number of geniuses that see reality so clearly that they could tolerate each other for the long term, (this is rare) and then they would be strong enough as a unit to take in ‘genius’ potentials, which would be members that don’t quite fit into the society, are seeing parts of reality, but they still have emotional problems that they need to deal with, and then you could have some obedient drones, maybe ones that are too weak for the society, too ugly to get a sexual partner, and too frightened to live on their own, and these people can live with the others, and help out.

I would imagine that you would need to have an equal balance of people for the thing to work. For instance: having too many genius potentials and not enough geniuses would be a disaster because there would be too much emotional conflict all at once. And there would need to be education in terms of the types of hierarchy feuds that can happen between males.

It really all depends on what types of people you want to attract, If you are simply looking for mediocre people to help you survive, then the whole idea is a waste of energy in my view.

And then there is the type of home, the type of economy you’re going to set up to support the system, and how far from civilization you want to be. I personally don’t think civilization is crumbling anytime soon, so I would recommend choosing property that has quick access to city services, but is far enough away in the countryside that some of the basic necessities can be grown for oneself.

However, sustaining a viable economy is the most difficult part, and it one of the primary reasons most intentional communities fail. Many members come from wealthy backgrounds, and pour thousands of dollars into the system, and it still fails. It is very tricky business. Many communities try to sustain an economy through logging, food crops, clothes production, craft production, and so on, but many times these services fail to generate the communities total financial expenses.

Buying and selling things is the easiest, quickest ways to make a lot of money, but you need to be resourceful, and wiling to invest a lot of time and effort into it. I personally don't have the ambition to work away at something like that, but my great uncle is pretty-much a self-made millionaire, and he has made his money from finding out what Goods and products Canada has that are in high demand in other parts of the world, and can be shipped there in such a way to still turn a profit. However, to be successful, one needs to have a working knowledge of many different factors. For instance: He'll ship large containers filled with recycled plastics, metals and other raw materials that are in high demand in China, and apparently he makes a lot of money doing it. However, it involves a lot of research, networking, forming trusted business allies and all the rest of it. Sometimes, I'm amazed at the sort of operation he has going because he can barely walk due to a back injury, and he walks using a cane....

Lykaios wrote:

The most successful intentional communities are to be found in Amish country.

The Amish takes things way too far in my opinion, they are too far divorced from civilization. Being an isolationist wont make your life any easier. And negating all forms of technology only means that the human body must make up the difference. I would say the strict moral and religious codes of the Amish is what holds the community together, but overall, I doubt their minds are all that rational, most of their ideas come from the bible, and their disconnection with the outside world make their global understanding rather nonexistent.

I did some searches looking for a community that consciously valued truth, logic, wisdom, masculinity, rationality, and solitude.

No such luck.

When it comes to the values of most intentional communities, like this one, and this one what we find promoted, over and over again, is egalitarianism, feminism, varied sexual orientations, 'personal growth', folksinging, drum circles, gaming, art parties, dances, poetry readings, even 'hottubbing'

Here's an interesting case study:

An Ultra-Loving, Ultra-Empathic, Ultra-Caring Family (AKA Empathy)

^ Note their current population and acreage:

Adult Members: 0
(Looking to create a very large community)

Child Members: 0
(Children are our future.)

Non-member Residents:0
(Everyone is invited free of charge.)

Area:0 acres (0.0 hectares)
(Care to donate some land to a good cause?)

The success of Findhorn is a bit interesting.

Ryan R wrote:The huge problem with intentional communities is that they are totally dependent on the continued cooperation of their members, and considering of how fragile and fickle most folks are, all ones efforts could be futile from the outset no matter what plan of action is taken.

It seems to me that this skepticism is equally applicable to all communities. When the members of a society cease to cooperate and behave in a purely selfish manner, the social order does break down, so why do societies even exist in the first place? I think the answer lies in the evolutionary history of mankind, and the general trend for humans to not only behave altruistically but to defend their communities against free riders. Remember, it has been observed (again, see Principles of Group Sollidarity) that people join and remain in groups when they perceive a net benefit to themselves in doing so. So I agree with the spirit of your objection, that an intentional community founded purely on idealistic moral desires won't last long, but I think most communities survive precisely because they do benefit the individual.

It seems to me that if an intentional community was to work, you would have to have a certain number of geniuses that see reality so clearly that they could tolerate each other for the long term, (this is rare) and then they would be strong enough as a unit to take in ‘genius’ potentials, which would be members that don’t quite fit into the society, are seeing parts of reality, but they still have emotional problems that they need to deal with, and then you could have some obedient drones, maybe ones that are too weak for the society, too ugly to get a sexual partner, and too frightened to live on their own, and these people can live with the others, and help out.

I wouldn't attempt to found a community in which I would be a member on the basis of totally uniform beliefs, partly because I do agree with what you seem to be saying - that many intelligent and clear-thinking people will still disagree on various issues. I would myself wish to found a community with a strongly pervading sense of deference and intellectual humility.

I would imagine that you would need to have an equal balance of people for the thing to work. For instance: having too many genius potentials and not enough geniuses would be a disaster because there would be too much emotional conflict all at once.

Yes, I'll have to consider this further.

It really all depends on what types of people you want to attract, If you are simply looking for mediocre people to help you survive

Absolutely not. While a person could attempt such a thing, that would be completely at odds with my own values and goals.

And then there is the type of home, the type of economy you’re going to set up to support the system, and how far from civilization you want to be. I personally don’t think civilization is crumbling anytime soon, so I would recommend choosing property that has quick access to city services, but is far enough away in the countryside that some of the basic necessities can be grown for oneself.

I tend to agree, but for different reasons. I think an intentional community should begin by nestling close to its parent community for protection and sustenance, but after the community becomes larger and better able to fend for itself, the closeness of the parent community will be a source of strife and defection.

However, sustaining a viable economy is the most difficult part, and it one of the primary reasons most intentional communities fail. Many members come from wealthy backgrounds, and pour thousands of dollars into the system, and it still fails. It is very tricky business. Many communities try to sustain an economy through logging, food crops, clothes production, craft production, and so on, but many times these services fail to generate the communities total financial expenses.

Really? I didn't realize that. I thought (perhaps naively) that most communities failed simply because members grew disinterested. In any event, I don't think we would try to compete with large-scale industry as you suggested many communities do; I think to start out with our members would be more involved in high-end jobs, and gradually build up an agricultural and industrial base as more people join and are born in and there are enough people to begin a single business (say, in animal breeding).

The Amish takes things way too far in my opinion, they are too far divorced from civilization. Being an isolationist wont make your life any easier. And negating all forms of technology only means that the human body must make up the difference. I would say the strict moral and religious codes of the Amish is what holds the community together, but overall, I doubt their minds are all that rational, most of their ideas come from the bible, and their disconnection with the outside world make their global understanding rather nonexistent.

I think it is reasonable to attempt to divorce the communal spirit of the Amish from their particular religious beliefs. After all, there are many devout Christians in the United States who do not live in separated communities or eschew the use of technology. Did you know that the Amish don't avoid technology because (or primarily because) they believe it to be ungodly, but specifically because they wish to avoid assimilation? I was surprised to see a photograph of Amish girls rollerblading in Kraybill's The Riddle of Amish Culture. Rollerblades and volleyballs aren't seen as a threat to their community; telephones and computers are.

Cory Duchesne wrote:When it comes to the values of most intentional communities, like this one, and this one what we find promoted, over and over again, is egalitarianism, feminism, varied sexual orientations, 'personal growth', folksinging, drum circles, gaming, art parties, dances, poetry readings, even 'hottubbing'

Yep. While I think a successful community can do some of that kind of thing, in general I think they're pulling their own legs.

The success of Findhorn is a bit interesting.

Yes, it is, but notice their sex ratio - with one male for every two females, (and no likelihood of polygyny), I don't think they will last too much longer. Still, they have 28 children among them right now, so they are at least reproducing - many communes don't even reproduce.

We should form a tribe that travels around the world and raids farms for food.

WW wrote:

We should form a tribe that travels around the world and raids farms for food.

Hey, while we’re at it, we could stop into findhorn intentional community in the UK and rape a few of the women there, they’d probably want it anyway, there isn’t enough males to go around you know, so we might as well spread our superior genes while we’re stealing their food…. ; )

tomas' first post deeply saddened me

Lykaios wrote:What are the best ways to design an intentional community for the purposes of improving our understanding of reality?

I am trying to put together such a community, and I find there are a bewildering number of strategies and options. I am considering especially where to live, how the social system would encourage newcomers to join and current members to stay, and how to maintain a decent standard of living with a small number of members having very limited social and economic intercourse with the outside world.

Why would you ask us this? We are not advocates of intentional community and there is little to suggest any of us has experience with it. Unless you mean online community, in which case just start a messageboard.

Lykaios wrote:What are the best ways to design an intentional community for the purposes of improving our understanding of reality?

There's something about community that by its very nature involves compromise and sacrifice to make it work. For the aspiring wise its like society a necessary evil, or something to be uninvolved in altogether during his stage of differentiation, or building his inner strength and courage as a thinker. The dynamics of a community will continuously divert his goal, by its very nature, unless he has all the strength and self-knowledge to ride without being ridden.

For society as a whole however I do believe a more local and independent organization, the size of hoods and blocks, would fix a lot of problems in highly populated areas. Lack of communal feeling and belonging is creating a lot of dis-ease for weaker minds in these times.

CarlG wrote:Why would you ask us this? We are not advocates of intentional community and there is little to suggest any of us has experience with it. Unless you mean online community, in which case just start a messageboard.

Jeez, who the hell is this 'us', 'we' and 'any of us'? You sound like you feel part of some cozy Genius community. Get lost!

And there are enough people here that I know have some experiences directly or indirectly (including personal visits, friends, family and online research). To suggest some universal forum member type who has no interest in these things is quite bizarre.

Carl G wrote:Why would you ask us this?

I asked in order to have a conversation on a topic that interests me and learn about the people on this board. I suppose I could have asked you something like which programming languages you prefer, or, say, what are your favorite colors, but I don't feel like reading posts about that right now.

I've considered starting a philosophical community, but I have no experience with it or anything. I would be more inclined to try joining one first rather than attempting to start my own. I have major doubts as to whether I could adapt to that type of lifestyle. I think a good modern approach would be incorporating it into like an internet startup or something.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Get lost!

Oh, go stick your dick in a band saw. Just ignore this thread if you don't like it; sheesh.

Edit - Sorry, Diebert! Obviously I should have paid attention to whom you were addressing with your comments! Still, I do admit to being confused as to why you would be so annoyed about what Carl posted.