to find ourselves or not to find ourselves.

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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sue hindmarsh
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Post by sue hindmarsh »

Steven wrote:
"You were never born, and you will never die."

Seeing that Nature is uncaused [. . . something can't arise out of nothing . . .] - it makes sense that we are also uncaused: Which makes all our actions caused, as well as predetermined.


Sue: You've a couple of ideas which you've slammed together. Perhaps if you'll explain a couple of points, your ideas will become clearer. 1. How is Nature “uncaused”? 2. And how are we both uncaused and caused?
1. Conceptually, Nature is uncaused, due to the logical impossiblity of something arising from nothing.
Let me see if I can trace your logic on this issue – and then you can tell me if I’ve read you correctly.

a) The Totality is not caused, because it is absolutely everything.

b) The ‘Nature’ we experience conceptually is therefore also uncaused, for it has arisen out of the ‘uncaused’ Totality.

If I’ve traced your idea correctly, the question of how things exist has not yet been answered. We know that we are experiencing a ‘something’. We also know that this ‘something’ is all we have to work with to understand anything. So, the answer to, “How do things exist” must be present in this experience. Or perhaps not?
2. An unclear explaination of causality spanning back for countless eons.
An unclear explanation is as good as no explanation at all – and in this case, that is exactly what you have given me.

You quoted, “You were never born, and you will never die”. Perhaps you could explain the reasoning behind this quote? I suppose you where questioning along the lines of – Does life really begin at birth? And - Is death really an end?

-
Sue
Steven Coyle

Post by Steven Coyle »

Let me see if I can trace your logic on this issue – and then you can tell me if I’ve read you correctly.

a) The Totality is not caused, because it is absolutely everything.

b) The ‘Nature’ we experience conceptually is therefore also uncaused, for it has arisen out of the ‘uncaused’ Totality.

If I’ve traced your idea correctly, the question of how things exist has not yet been answered. We know that we are experiencing a ‘something’. We also know that this ‘something’ is all we have to work with to understand anything. So, the answer to, “How do things exist” must be present in this experience. Or perhaps not?
a) Yes.
b) Yes.

"How do things exist..."

[laughter]

Could you clarify what you mean in this context?
You quoted, “You were never born, and you will never die”. Perhaps you could explain the reasoning behind this quote?


I was aiming [with my reasoning] for the freedom attained once the truth behind this koan had been uncovered.
I suppose you where questioning along the lines of – Does life really begin at birth? And - Is death really an end?

No - I understand the profound implications of causality.
bert
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Post by bert »

Steven Coyle wrote:
bert wrote:
bert, can you translate your own language?
why do you think artist use art?
what are they expressing?
why are creative ideas ill-birthed?
why did the ancient egyptians use illustrations?
how precise can you speak of a concept that dwells in between?

what we make factual ceases to have abstract value and thereby becomes his exact opposite.
No, no . . .

I get where you're coming from (also an artist).

"Can you translate your abstractions into a more easily accessible form?"

Maybe by using illustrations, or mixing your visions with supporting statements, you'd be able to get your mind across more effectively.

I think you'd also find that by communicating with more effect, you'd sequentially access more knowledge -- seeing that all knowledge is self-endowed.
steven,for complete other angle on the basic of "my system",I refer you to the following page.It is written by a guy who calls himself a languagephilosopher ,and he explains things in the most simplistic way possible so that as many people possible can understand it.that is one of his jobs.
he understands me well,so I know that it is not the language that is really the problem,but others connected to it.
he also assured me that he himself and Einstein,where he has been in search for,as a basic work in the same manner.

http://nnw.berlios.de/docs.php/debate-64
Steven Coyle

Post by Steven Coyle »

I enjoyed it.

Writing was straight to the heart. No appeal to emotion.

The prose detail was on point -- acute.

Exemplifying the connective principle of experience and language, and the space inbetween.
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