Carmel wrote:Combine logic with an overinflated ego and the result is petty redundancy as can be seen in this and most every thread about women that arises. .... The typical misogynist don't generally possess the attritubes you listed. They are neither patient, courageous, nor purposeful. They hide behind the intelligence of other men in a rather pathetic attempt to cover their own insecurites or form an identity through a larger group. They escape themselves at every turn. At best, they're unwise, at worst, they're petty tyrants.
I am - on my better days - a misogynist, someone who fully rejects feminine psychology. Misogynists are extremely rare, and it is quite wrong to associate misogyny with the symptoms you describe. Masculine-minded persons who want to become enlightened (i.e. are still ego-bound) are actually suffering deeply. They are in the throes of a psychological battle. It is not that their ego is inflated, but that it is roaring with pain. It is
deeply frightening to anyone with an ego to reject feminine psychology. They are petty tyrants because they desire truth and a strong mind, but are still attached to unconsciousness, so they over-attack anything that resembles femininity. It's not petty redundancy, in the slightest. It's a very important, and inevitable stage of learning, and something one should show compassion towards.
Not much of what's been said here is new to me. It's natural for people to explore gender issues as young adults, eventually, or hopefully, they find some sense of resolution or integration and move on to more compelling philosophical concepts.
I don't think you have any idea about the psychology struggles in philosophy. Philosophy is not doddling concepts at a nice, comfortable, intellectual distance. It is painful and personal. It is, to use a graphic analogy, like inhaling poisonous fumes with every breath. Any person who does not see this dynamic in the investigation of the psychology of the sexes, has not glimpsed wisdom even in a small degree. They are still wholly stone-walled inside the domain of the ego.
Kelly: Just to give you an example, the idea of psychological issues is well-known to be the main driver for women's being obese or overweight (not genetically, of course). Women tend to overeat when stressed. But if one discusses the importance of learning to trust in your own mind, and in having a strong mind, many women would simply respond that they cannot trust themselves because of all the fears and impulses their minds present. They have great difficulty even controlling their own thoughts.
Carmel: hmm, well that explains why I've never seen a fat man:)...
I would say that a majority of overweight men are 'muscle-heads'. Their large weight corresponds to an imposing physical appearance, which is part of their identity as protectors of women and children and aggressors against other men. Many such men don't actually believe they are overweight for this reason, and so would not try to change their behaviour. In other words, they are eating precisely what they believe they ought to eat.
Kelly: But I think it's obvious you believe that a love of truth can help a person to overcome their love of self-indulgent personal advantage.
Carmel: Yes, I do believe that, but we're speaking about a relative truth whenever we discuss gender. There are no absolutes here.
The lover of truth has the same truth whether discussing philosophy or gender. Empiricism is not an absence of truth, but a realisation of the nature of how truth manifests in finite things.
Kelly: So, as I mentioned above, logic doesn't arise in isolation. There is no highly logical thinker who has no will to truth, or courage to admit the truth. To the extent that a person is satisfied with truth, to that extent they will be truthful.
Carmel: I agree.
Kelly: I have, and do see, the principle of truthfulness: a strong, uncomrpomising, aggression against untruth, and a willingness to experience the pain of growth when allowing the egotistical habits of the mind to fade.
Carmel: I generally agree with this...but,
Kelly: I see this principle as wholly masculine, because even though men are unable generally to fulfill their natural gifts in perfect wisdom, or even to reach the bottom rung of kensho, they are far superior to women, who cannot even trust in their own minds. Men are afraid to let logic have full reign - because they know its power. Women have not even tasted that power.
Carmel: ..this is where we diverge. I would never deny that that masculinity in it's ideal form is beneficial to truth and wisdom, but if they are not tempered by some positive feminine traits, they are useless...i.e. intuition, receptivity, creativity, compassion. If these aren't incorporated in the man's ideology, then he becomes a narcissistic clod, too rigid in his thinking and behaviour.
As I mentioned above, misogyny is extremely rare. Suffering because of ambivalence about one's relationship to truth is not masculinity, because it is not expressing masculinity purely. Similarly, fat "guard-dog" men do not show lack of trust in their minds to the same degree as fat "comfort-eating" women.
The "feminine traits" you list are all masculine. I'm sorry, but it's true. Intuition is not a feminine trait, but emotional instinct is a feminine trait. Most "animal communicators" are female, because they are animal-like themselves. They actually bond with their animals as peers, and I have watched documentaries of female animal keepers who are happy when their "guard-dog" animals hurt visitors, or if their visitors are afraid of their animals.
Intuition is a by-product of a clear, rational mind. It is a fast hypothesis, deduction, or conclusion, which hasn't yet been clarified carefully. It is an artifact of reason.
Receptivity is the natural state of a fully conscious person, who is free of all emotional prejudices which stop one from thinking infinitely. It is inseparable from the freedom of highly logical thinking. It is
not open-mindedness or being trusting. Many women are garrulously open, invasive into other people's lives, and wanting to ask a lot of questions of strangers --- but because that openness is based on an inability to be centred inwardly, they often get themselves into dangerous situations. Ironically, that feminine openness and gullibility is associated with a deep distrust of others: they want to impose themselves on others to avoid being influenced. They will actually receive very little of what they are told: they can learn and repeat everything, but it is all surface. This is why there are so many female devotees in religions, yet few of those female followers will actually substantiate what they've absorbed in any other form except rite and script. It's quite insane.
Compassion in women is covert malice. Creativity in women is sensual chaos, the kind of creativity of wanting to do something "blissful" like squeezing toothpaste all over the walls of your living room. Even Jackson Pollack had purpose in his splashing, similar to Gertrude Stein's. Most women have none of that intellectual grounding, and so their creativity is very hit-and-miss. They produce a lot of mediocre "do whatever I feel driven to do".
Kelly: It's not about men being intrinsically wise, but giving us a convenient demonstration of how the tools needed for wisdom generally play out in humans. It also cuts deeply into false idealisations of what wisdom is, because so many people think that the natural self-minimisation and efffacement of women is somehow intrinsically connected to being enlightened. It is not: it is having insufficient faith in their own essence - who they are, their importance, their skills, their capaciities - that makes them bashful and hide in the crowd.
Carmel: Yes, thanks, I really ought to stop being such the delicate little wallflower. :)...anyway, yes, I generally agree with this and would never recommend that women should be shrinking violets, but a little civility and grace would not be remiss from time to time. :)
Civility and grace are also not characteristic of women. Rather, it is a superficial politeness, a covert malice.
"Better are open words of rebuke
Than hidden malice."
If you keep identifying yourself as one of a mass, you will always be feminine-minded. The ability to know oneself, and distinguish oneself from the mass-mind, is the hallmark of masculinity.
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