GENIUS FORUMS

Dan Rowden wrote:There are basic characteristics that any person who attains enlightenment will have developed along the way - clarity and sharpness of mind, rationality, an absence of emotional response to things and events, discernment, a penchant for beer.

acid's thread on LSD - The Philosophical Implications

I'm seeing hints at cause and effect about enlightenment and intoxicants - with the roles of which being the cause and which being the effect reversing... but it seems that the wisest would not need intoxicants to get there, nor to stay there, nor would really want intoxicants once there as Truth would be intoxicating enough.

The fifth precept in Buddhism is to abstain from all drugs and alcohol. I know the QRS don't promote a clean Buddhism, but I think they do try to promote logic and rationality. Logically, a well-functioning brain should be able to attain elightenment better than one that is damaged by alcohol or drugs, but also a well-functioning brain would reach enlightenment better than one that was otherwise damaged (to see various damages, select from the table of contents on the list). Alcohol can seem to repair some of the damages caused either by genetic or other environmental conditions, and an argument can be made for "self-medication" on those points, but the problem with alcohol and other street drugs (and actually with wantonly prescribed medications) is that they damage areas that were working well in addition to helping areas that needed repair.

Of course, the brain isn't the only thing that gets damaged by excessive alcohol consumption. I remember one guy, early 20's - was coughing up blood for a couple of days - esophogeal varices from alcoholism - and finally decided to go to the ER about it. He actually came in on his own - walked through the doors and gave his own history - and coded as the esophogeal varices ruptured.. He then became one of my patients. We had him on life support for a few days, but there was nothing we could do to really save him. I had to take this 20-some year old kid off life support, because of alcohol. There are effects to what we do, and I ask if intoxicants are really a wise stone on the path to enlightenment.

I can't really imagine why we would discuss alcoholism and enlightenment as though it had much in common with LSD or amanita muscaria or marijuana.

It's like saying mariguana is the same as huffing propane. Or that peyote buttons are the same as smoking crack.

This whole topic becomes close to being hysterical when realizing this world is mainly populated by people in such very advanced stages of drunkenness that it really doesn't differ much whatever chemical you throw extra into the toxic mix everyone is letting slide down every moment already.

[Alcohol, street drugs and prescribed drugs…] damage areas that were working well in addition to helping areas that needed repair.

A wise man once told me that you have to pick your poison. Those that have been through psychological disturbances may understand the meaning behind this wise saying. I have taken myself off most medication except that which allows my mind to rest in order to sleep and use exercise, diet and focus in order to address those issues that drugs would address for the same reason you state.

In my disturbance, I have moments of intense creativity which I utilize at work and in my artwork which can be followed by normalcy and/or periods of depression. I live through these phases because having been on the medication to “cure” the symptoms; I have found that I am also not my true self, I become numb, indifferent and it is drug-induced.

The problem is balancing these phases with reality. It most likely would be easier to move into the woods, alone, than to have to live with this disease while living with others who have their own problems and trying to find a rational line. The question is, do you take these drugs to escape the chemical imbalance in your brain, or do you live with the chemical imbalance and try to figure out what triggers the problems and adjust?

For those who have no chemical imbalances, it is hard to truly understand the choice one has to make. I find it refreshing that you, a medical person, is not too afraid to state what was quoted above. It is much easier to give a pill than to teach how to deal with life, but medication can be psychologically as damaging because when it fails to correct, the person medicated loses a whole lot more.

I do not wish to make sweeping generalizations. Not everyone can or should try what I am doing. It is difficult to get through some days, but my desire is to see life clearly even if it means discomfort from time to time.

Correctly prescribed medications are a good and necessary thing, but overmedicating is horrible, and "here, try this pill, see if it helps" is rather irresponsible if there are ways to test to see which medication would be the right one. Doctors taking an educated guess is little better than self-medication.

I am not opposed to necessary meds at all - I just wish more critical thinking and less pandering to ignorance just to keep the patients happy occurred.

And as you indicated, with psyc stuff, the work is more important than the meds, it is just sometimes the meds are needed to make the work possible for some.

Yo everyone,

I think the general question of this topic is: can a substance enlighten us?

The problem with the question is that we're supposing enlightenment exists as something we can attain, or become. The fact is that we don't even really know what it is. We don't have it. It's just a word, or a wish right now. It's a subconscious hope. A half realized fantasy.

When I was very young, probably one or two years old, I remember my parents telling me about licorice. I had never tried it and I loved the word. I wanted to try it so bad that I could almost taste it in my mouth, even though I'd never actually experienced it. They said it rots your teeth, and it was bad for you...that probably made me want it even more! I thought that once I was old enough to eat this licorice, then I would eat it every day.

The same with enlightenment here. We like this word, and want it, but have no idea what it is at all. Sure we can say "it is having no delusions" but we can't actually imagine what that would be like. We can almost feel it, yet we miss it entirely.

The wise and sensible position to take is to not assume anything. To not hold false beliefs. Our idea of enlightenment is the main problem. This enlightenment concept prevents us from enlightenment.

When I was a little older and I finally tasted licorice, I "got it". AHA! That's what it tastes like! No longer did I have to imagine and wish for this thing. I tasted it in reality, and then my wishes were fulfilled.

It wasn't as great as I imagined. I found out it gave me a bellyache. I learned there were different kinds: red and black. Different brands which tasted slightly different and had different textures. There are many different kinds of licorice today...but anything, what am I doing? This discussion isn't about licorice. It's about enlightenment!

I'm saying that there's much more to enlightenment than what we think, and also much less.

So about the question, if drugs can make us enlightened: first we have to find out what enlightenment is. I think this forum is a good place to do that. I've personally come to a good idea of what it is, even if it's not what everyone thinks it is. I'm sure many others here have as well.

Once we know what we're aiming for, we have to see if our tool of choice will actually hit the bullseye, or miss the mark completely. If we really care about the topic, we have to try many different drugs to experiment and see for ourselves if they bring the intended results.

Not all drugs make you stupid or delusional. There are tons of different effects that various substances can give. The one which I'd say closest brings one to enlightenment, in my limited experience, is salvia divinorum. I haven't tried many more, simply because I don't do drugs anymore.

Why do I think salvia is close to the ideal substance for enlightenment? First of all, the effects are intense. Our everyday reality is changed into something not understandable. For instance (I think I posted this in the other topic), everything in my vision turned into cornfields at one point. Imagine looking at your hand and only comprehending cornfields, and then looking past it into the air and seeing cornfields there too...also feeling them prick into your body. It shakes up the way we see the world.

But that isn't the reason why I think it's good for enlightenment. The helpful effects come afterwards, when you stop hallucinating so much and you feel very grounded and can think very clearly. The drug makes you not want to do it ever again. You learn to value real things by taking it.

That being said, it's probably better to just not take drugs at all! It's like getting dirty to learn the value and importance of staying clean.

I think you nailed it Scott. Impressive.

I think the general question of this topic is: can a substance enlighten us?

I can only imagine that there are some substances out there that may seem as if they cause “enlightenment”, but the fact is that enlightenment isn’t something we can attain, it is something we are given.

We like this word, and want it, but have no idea what it is at all. Sure we can say "it is having no delusions" but we can't actually imagine what that would be like. We can almost feel it, yet we miss it entirely.

Have you ever been delusional? Truly delusional…like losing touch with reality or at least our collective reality? If drugs can make a normal person delusional by their effect, then it isn’t any closer to enlightenment than mental illness. What is clear is after you finally do get a grip on the collective reality again, you take drugs just to hang onto that slim thread of reality, as EI pointed out. You take these drugs until you figure out that it is you that needs to change. It is what we do to ourselves that causes us to not have enlightening moments. We are the poison…you don’t need drugs, only to turn inward and find the antidote.

It is only when you do this that you can begin to see the delusion you have lived all of your life within our collective reality or Reality, and do something to change your course. "Normal" people delusions cannot be cured with intoxicants, it takes the intoxicant of truth and honesty. There are some members here who can pull this off without you even knowing you'd been hit, but the sting is truly grand when you understand.

But that isn't the reason why I think it's good for enlightenment. The helpful effects come afterwards, when you stop hallucinating so much and you feel very grounded and can think very clearly. The drug makes you not want to do it ever again. You learn to value real things by taking it.

It seems you got a good taste for what it feels like…it IS good to return…it is also good to be in tune with your body both physically and mentally because it is only then that you can truly think.

I have learned how delicate the chemical system in our body truly is. I will have moments when I am off. I have to stop, assess what is happening, adjust and continue on. Tipping the scales with self-induced foreign substances, to me, is not wise. Our bodies fail us all soon enough.

Passthrough,

I can only imagine that there are some substances out there that may seem as if they cause “enlightenment”, but the fact is that enlightenment isn’t something we can attain, it is something we are given.

By whom?

I'm assuming you will say God. How do you know enlightenment is given, though, being unenlightened yourself? On that note, how do you know it's not something we can attain?

Have you ever been delusional? Truly delusional…like losing touch with reality or at least our collective reality?

Yes, when I took a few different drugs I've lost touch with reality. You can go quite deep with certain substances. I've also experienced amazing things with yoga, but I don't consider those things losing touch with reality. Those are closer to enlightenment even though they are altered states.

If drugs can make a normal person delusional by their effect, then it isn’t any closer to enlightenment than mental illness. What is clear is after you finally do get a grip on the collective reality again, you take drugs just to hang onto that slim thread of reality, as EI pointed out. You take these drugs until you figure out that it is you that needs to change. It is what we do to ourselves that causes us to not have enlightening moments. We are the poison…you don’t need drugs, only to turn inward and find the antidote.

It is only when you do this that you can begin to see the delusion you have lived all of your life within our collective reality or Reality, and do something to change your course. "Normal" people delusions cannot be cured with intoxicants, it takes the intoxicant of truth and honesty. There are some members here who can pull this off without you even knowing you'd been hit, but the sting is truly grand when you understand.

I think what you were saying is that enlightenment is not an altered state. I agree!

It seems you got a good taste for what it feels like…it IS good to return…it is also good to be in tune with your body both physically and mentally because it is only then that you can truly think.

I agree. Even if the world is a mirage and far from being the reality that the seeker seeks, it's good to stay grounded in that mirage and not be stuck in the cloudiness of false beliefs.

By whom? I’m assuming you will say God. How do you know enlightenment is given, though being unenlightened yourself? On that note, how do you know it’s not something we can attain?

Attain is a word you used, and one that I don’t think is applicable. Enlightenment is a state of being. But even the word enlightenment can vary from definition to definition and from person to person. Enlightenment is present in Eastern religious thought, but the term may also be used more generally as spiritual growth. So, you and I could be talking apples and oranges.

I think everyone has the capacity to be enlightened every day, but to hold or maintain that level of perfection and clarity in their daily life would take someone willing to be like Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ yielded his entire life to God.

Some of us think we know what God is, some of us agree on some aspects of each other’s definitions, some do not believe at all, but he knew and yielded his life to let his spirit be led by something greater. Can we be in that state of being? I think this to be true. How do I know? Jesus Christ was a human. He told us how to live in this state of being, but the world decided to create an institution rather than listen and think about what he said.

[ As an aside: David Quinn has some amazing quotes by Jesus Christ, which if read just as he has them, take your breath away. This has led me to begin to reread the Gospels focusing just on what was written that was attributed to Jesus. In doing so, I have already run across an interesting contradiction between Christian church commentary on the story of Nicodemus and the well used saying: “seek and you shall find”. The first being that God picks us, we have no choice, while the second being we choose God. So, I have determined that since “seek and you shall find” is as about as clear as it comes, the interpretation of the Nicodemus story merits some reconsideration. What did Christ mean when he said that those who are born again of the spirit can be compared to the wind? It comes and goes and you know it is there, but you do not know from where it came or where it went. Enlightened moments? Think about it.]

Enlightenment is just a word for all we do not know about the state of being in it. There are those who may think they are enlightened, but have they completely yielded to God? I can say that there are those on this board who are very knowledgable. However, knowledge is one thing while the state of being or living that knowledge, wisdom, is yet another.

Most everyone here, it seems, has had an enlightening moment in their life. If these "collective" moments occurred, although the experience may have differed, this would lend a thought that either there exists such a thing as enlightenment or that we are all delusional. Those of us who admit that we are not enlightened, as a constant state of being, but have experienced enlightened moments understand that it takes something uniquely special to achieve that state of being even for just a moment. Furthermore, I don’t think it is something you get to pick and choose, BUT you have to be open to the experience.

Finding enlightenment in life, even for a moment, is not something that one can judge whether someone has experienced or not. Presumption of this sort seems to be relegating oneself to a higher position in judgment, which is certainly not self-less or empty. These moments are personal and really cannot be explained other than to recognize that it had happened. If you have experienced this moment, it is something you wish you could stay in forever, but the moment happens and then it goes...just like the wind.

Mind should have nothing to do with enlightenment other than to recognize it, being conscious of this strange and wonderful state of being. Drug altered states of mind are just that…a fabrication of another delusional state. In these enlightened moments you are there but not there...you are part of something greater than your small self universe and you are conscious of being so. The thread where Kevin led me to understand [whether he meant to or not] that we are nothing and yet everything, has so much meaning here. The spirit has everything to do with enlightenment…it is finding truth in Truth. It is an essence.

Some drugs can expand the mind, some, like alcohol, can close the mind and kill brain cells, making you stupider.

Can... There's no guarantee---one person smokes a joint with friends and laughs and shoves things up his nose and watches cartoons...while another smokes it by himself and listens to "Echoes" as he draws a mountain bleeding...

Which one would have more aptitude to travel a "path" to enlightenment? Or which one is more apt to expand his perception and imagination and consciousness?

The systematic derangement of the senses is what many have sought in order to permeate the unknown---and it works when the will is strong enough and the person survives.

No, it's not logical and it's unhealthy---who cares? What's bad for the body is usually great for the spirit, and logic alone guides one to nowhere at all.