Brief Essay

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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by Cory Duchesne »

Unidian wrote:Yeah, you can't "understand" the ontology of reality in any conceptual sense. Thought can't grasp it. That's Zen 101, but David and certain others keep trying to teach Zen 007 or some version thereof which allows them to play "wise guru."
I was once suspicious of this too, but I've noticed that David has said many times in different ways that one can never know a thing as it really is beyond one's mind, but only the concept one has of it. We only ever know the concepts and never the actuality, as the actuality stretches back into an unknowable, beginningless past.
They should just cut to the chase and admit that the only purpose of thinking in Zen is to reveal the limits of thinking.
Zen reveals both the limit and the virtue of thinking.

This Zen proverb in particular seems to promote the value of thought:

Student: Is there anything in the world more marvellous than the forces of Nature?
Master: There is - the power of comprehending those natural forces.
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by Nick »

vicdan wrote:
Nick Treklis wrote:You contradicted yourself here. You say philosophy shouldn't be about understanding reality, but that it should be about understanding the self.
Right. And biology is not about understandings things but living things, even though living things are a subset of all things.
The distinction made between things is only for convenience. It is in no way Absolute.
vicdan wrote:The point is that it's not at all clear what constitutes 'reality', and whether talking about 'reality' is even meaningful in many senses. The very question, as framed, already presupposes certain answers.
What is wrong with the definition of Reality being the culmination of all things that are real or in other words true? And what kind of answers would this kind of question presuppose?
vicdan wrote:Seeking to understand 'reality' will lead you in the direction roughly similar to where QRS have gone -- they seek to understand the ontology of the world, because in the very framing of their programme, they presupposed that this is a meaningful quest.
We are all seeking to understand Reality in one way or another. It is what we as humans have been doing since we took our first steps. It's just a matter of fact that some people are better at it than others, and most will never have more than a vague conception of it.
vicdan wrote:I didn't say philosophy's job is to uncover truth, but rather to help us recognize nonsensical and fallacious beliefs. is the distinction too subtle for you?
There is no distinction. When you realize what is false you are automatically and simultaneously realizing what is true. When I realized my belief in Santa Claus was a false belief, I was also at the same time realizing that to not believe in Santa Claus is a true belief.
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by Unidian »

Dan has no schizoid tendencies.
I wasn't talking about Dan. He doesn't approach the issue the same way David does, in my experience.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by Dan Rowden »

I have non-inherent appearance tendencies. They defy categorisation.
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by daybrown »

For all I know, all the postings are no more than Turing machine output. Including mine.

If I am software, that is, nonetheless, something. I am not programmed to worry about it. Is there a point in worrying about it? Software can crash as any time too. Nothing to be done about that, so no point in dwelling on it.

Somewheres in the Vedas is the idea that there is only the One. who, or which, suspends disbelief in order to pretend there is another to talk to.
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by vicdan »

Nick Treklis wrote:What is wrong with the definition of Reality being the culmination of all things that are real or in other words true?
What's wrong with that?.. Well, how about the fact that this statement is either circular or presupposes a certain specific perspective on epistemology and the nature of truth?..

You act as if the last few centuries of philosophy never happened, the years which have given us some of the most brilliant philosophers of all time -- Kant, Hume, Spinoza, Quine, Carnap, etc.
And what kind of answers would this kind of question presuppose?
Inasmuch as it's not a nonsensically circular statement, it presupposes epistemic realism and correspondence theory of truth.
We are all seeking to understand Reality in one way or another. It is what we as humans have been doing since we took our first steps. It's just a matter of fact that some people are better at it than others, and most will never have more than a vague conception of it.
hahaha. You should work as a stand-up philosopher. you are hilarious!
There is no distinction. When you realize what is false you are automatically and simultaneously realizing what is true.
No. You should have studies math better. oh wait, real philosophers don't care about math...

Near the top of the computational complexity hierarchy (don't presume this has anything to do with computers) are two very interesting compelxity classes: recursively-enumerable and co-recursively-enumerable. They are both partially decidable. if a proposition is r.e., what that means is that if it's true, it can be demostrated to be true -- but if it's false, it can never, ever, in principle be demonstrated to be false. Co-r.e. is the same in reverse.

Obviously, since r.e. and co-r.e. truths exist, you cannot assume that to discern falsehood entails discerning truth, and vice-versa.

See? There's some philosophical benefit to all that fancy-schmancy grad school math!
When I realized my belief in Santa Claus was a false belief, I was also at the same time realizing that to not believe in Santa Claus is a true belief.
That's a trivial example having nothing to do with the point. Any r.e. question can be reversed into a co-r.e. question, but that doesn't help you deal with its partial undecidability.

For example, recognizing the idea of empirical proof as nonsensical, does not automatically entail understanding how we should go about acquiring empirical knowledge instead of seeking 'proofs'. The very quality of being a true idea seems to resemble co-r.e. -- we can discern bullshit, easily enough, discerning truth is a wholly different matter. if you are familiar with falsificationist epistemology, this is basically falsificationism applied to the philosophical inquiry itself.
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by Philosophaster »

vicdan wrote:You act as if the last few centuries of philosophy never happened, the years which have given us some of the most brilliant philosophers of all time -- Kant, Hume, Spinoza, Quine, Carnap, etc.
Boring and shallow thinkers, one and all!

[Not that I've actually read them or tried to interpret them charitably. But my Buddhasage self doesn't need to read more than a paragraph of somebody to judge the worth of his philosophy.]
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Re: Brief Essay

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Unidian wrote:Yeah, you can't "understand" the ontology of reality in any conceptual sense. Thought can't grasp it. That's Zen 101, but David and certain others keep trying to teach Zen 007 or some version thereof which allows them to play "wise guru." They should just cut to the chase and admit that the only purpose of thinking in Zen is to reveal the limits of thinking. That's the whole point, and why the koan is given in actual (non-QRS) Zen schools. But I guess the whole "rational enlightenment" game is just too psychologically rewarding, particularly for those with schizoid tendencies.
Your conception of Zen is far too banal and limited to be of any interest. Zen is primarily about dissolving the mind of all its delusions from top to bottom. That is how I've always understood it to be. If it isn't doing this, then it is worthless.

Understanding what thought can and cannot do is a part of the Zen process, but only a relatively small part. Of far more importance is the dismantling of those deeper attachments and delusions that plague the ignorant mind and prevent it from enjoying its natural state. That is big-league Zen, whereas what you are describing is harmless, little-league stuff.

As always, exposing these delusions can be painful and living without them can be scary. Hence, people are easily persuaded to the view that thinking is limited and doesn't need to be fully unleashed. It suits them to remain in the little league.

Apart from anything else, it is how people with bad consciences can get a little peace.

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Re: Brief Essay

Post by David Quinn »

Victor,
The point is that it's not at all clear what constitutes 'reality', and whether talking about 'reality' is even meaningful in many senses. The very question, as framed, already presupposes certain answers.
That doesn't matter, so long as our resulting definition of reality is meaningful to us. For example, as a philosopher who has made it his business to understand the nature of all things, it is meaningful to me to define reality to be utterly everything. I don't have any reason to exclude anything from "reality", given my purpose.

Seeking to understand 'reality' will lead you in the direction roughly similar to where QRS have gone -- they seek to understand the ontology of the world, because in the very framing of their programme, they presupposed that this is a meaningful quest.
And the problem with that is .... ?

Inasmuch as it's not a nonsensically circular statement, it presupposes epistemic realism and correspondence theory of truth.
In other words, it presumes that we can gain knowledge about reality. We all do that, Victor. Even you.

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Re: Brief Essay

Post by vicdan »

Why don't you understand what those them fancy philosophical concepts mean, dude? Even genuises like you need a pictionary ever once in a while.
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by David Quinn »

Theology isn't my bag.

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Re: Brief Essay

Post by vicdan »

No, it's not. Nor is philosophy.

I can't really think of what would be your bag. Self-aggrandizing pontifications perhaps?..
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by Unidian »

As always, exposing these delusions can be painful and living without them can be scary. Hence, people are easily persuaded to the view that thinking is limited and doesn't need to be fully unleashed. It suits them to remain in the little league.

Apart from anything else, it is how people with bad consciences can get a little peace.
Gimme a break, Dave.

I don't want to rush in to address this because it's coming from a place where angels fear to tread, frankly. And I don't mean a place of Glorious Truth threatening to banish all my egotistical delusions (lol). No, I mean this place.

If it wasn't that, you'd be able to recognize that I have my Zen pretty well in order, at least on paper. But you can't do that because only you are the "wise guru" and all others are in "little league," or they are "rank beginners," etc. Okay then, carry on. It doesn't matter to me what your "karma" is, and it's not your fault anyway.

And I never said that thinking didn't have to be "fully unleashed." It does, but only for as long as it takes to fully realize the limitations of thinking and the primacy of direct awareness unmediated by attachment to concepts. For someone like Hui-neng, this took five minutes. For the rest of us on the spiritual short bus, it may take years. But Zen isn't about anything else. We went through all of this before with the "sticky buns" business, though.

People with SPD can very easily attain a state of "peace" owing to the fact that they don't care about anything that normally disturbs people. In terms of non-attachment, peace, and that sort of thing, David, you were born on third base and think you hit a home run. I think it's natural that you adopted Buddhist teachings because, in your view, they legitimize a way of life which would have occurred anyway, and allow you to play guru as a bonus.
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by Unidian »

vicdan: Seeking to understand 'reality' will lead you in the direction roughly similar to where QRS have gone -- they seek to understand the ontology of the world, because in the very framing of their programme, they presupposed that this is a meaningful quest.

David: And the problem with that is .... ?
The problem with that is that it ain't. See here.

Ontological concepts are precisely what things like Zen and Taoism get rid of. But don't despair, I made the same error for years. Only when I fully unleashed my thinking did I finally have a major breakthrough.
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by daybrown »

Quantum Physics says there are no "things", only patterns of energy, forces. The mind is, whatever else it is, an evolving energy pattern, a thot within it, a pattern, and the *thing* it thinks it perceives is a pattern. Which is what the Vedas have been saying all along.
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by David Quinn »

daybrown wrote:Quantum Physics says there are no "things", only patterns of energy, forces. The mind is, whatever else it is, an evolving energy pattern, a thot within it, a pattern, and the *thing* it thinks it perceives is a pattern. Which is what the Vedas have been saying all along.
Patterns of energy and forces fall into the category of "things", where a "thing" is defined as a limited portion of the Totality.

Given this, quantum physics doesn't really tackle the issue at all. But it can help us visualize empirical objects in different ways, which is a good thing.

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Re: Brief Essay

Post by Imadrongo »

Problem: "thing" defined as something abstract, intangible.
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by David Quinn »

On the contrary, it is an abstraction which points directly at concrete objects, just as all meaningful concepts do.

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Re: Brief Essay

Post by David Quinn »

Unidian,
vicdan: Seeking to understand 'reality' will lead you in the direction roughly similar to where QRS have gone -- they seek to understand the ontology of the world, because in the very framing of their programme, they presupposed that this is a meaningful quest.

David: And the problem with that is .... ?

Unidian: The problem with that is that it ain't. See here.
That doesn't really address my question. Regardless of whether or not the fundamental nature of the Universe can be understood, the quest to seek this understanding is still a meaningful one for the person involved. If he didn't find meaning in it, then he wouldn't bother starting the quest in the first place. Hence, my puzzlement over Victor's comment.

Ontological concepts are precisely what things like Zen and Taoism get rid of. But don't despair, I made the same error for years. Only when I fully unleashed my thinking did I finally have a major breakthrough.
In your essay, I counted a number of ontological concepts that you still adhere to. So I find the kinds of claims you make above rather silly.

"Dependent-origination", "emptiness", "beyond conceptualization", etc - these are all concepts which arise out of your own ontological world-view. They have no meaning outside of your ontology. So your ontology is still very present and very real.

Those who believe they have abandoned ontology are just as much as in denial as postmodernists who believe they have abandoned absolutist thinking.

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Re: Brief Essay

Post by Unidian »

Those terms aren't being used to establish an ontology, they are being used to support my thesis that one can't be established. Doesn't context matter? Or is everything like the old joke about the blind carpenter for you?

"I see," said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by David Quinn »

Unidian,
I don't want to rush in to address this because it's coming from a place where angels fear to tread, frankly. And I don't mean a place of Glorious Truth threatening to banish all my egotistical delusions (lol). No, I mean this place.

If it wasn't that, you'd be able to recognize that I have my Zen pretty well in order, at least on paper. But you can't do that because only you are the "wise guru" and all others are in "little league," or they are "rank beginners," etc. Okay then, carry on. It doesn't matter to me what your "karma" is, and it's not your fault anyway.

And I never said that thinking didn't have to be "fully unleashed." It does, but only for as long as it takes to fully realize the limitations of thinking and the primacy of direct awareness unmediated by attachment to concepts. For someone like Hui-neng, this took five minutes. For the rest of us on the spiritual short bus, it may take years. But Zen isn't about anything else. We went through all of this before with the "sticky buns" business, though.

People with SPD can very easily attain a state of "peace" owing to the fact that they don't care about anything that normally disturbs people. In terms of non-attachment, peace, and that sort of thing, David, you were born on third base and think you hit a home run. I think it's natural that you adopted Buddhist teachings because, in your view, they legitimize a way of life which would have occurred anyway, and allow you to play guru as a bonus.
You're confusing cause with effect there. As a person takes truth seriously and grows into wisdom, he deviates away from the rest of human race. It cannot be any other way. As such, developing a "schizoid personality disorder", at least a particular kind of one, is part and parcel of becoming more truthful and wise.

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Re: Brief Essay

Post by David Quinn »

Unidian wrote:Those terms aren't being used to establish an ontology, they are being used to support my thesis that one can't be established. Doesn't context matter? Or is everything like the old joke about the blind carpenter for you?

"I see," said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.
The trouble is, you are using a particular ontology to make your thesis. So the whole process is incoherent from the start.

For example, the view that the Tao is beyond conceptualization rests on a particular ontological view of what the Tao is. It doesn't have any meaning without this ontological backing.

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Re: Brief Essay

Post by Unidian »

You're confusing cause with effect there. As a person takes truth seriously and grows into wisdom, he deviates away from the rest of human race. It cannot be any other way. As such, developing a "schizoid personality disorder", at least a particular kind of one, is part and parcel of becoming more truthful and wise.
You would say that, yes. That is to be expected. But outside yourself, very few "wise" individuals or spiritual leaders alive today could be diagnosed as schizoid. That leaves us with the following possibilities:

1.) All "wise" individuals and spiritual leaders other than yourself are fraudulent, ignorant, or not fully developed, making you perhaps the wisest man living on Earth, or pretty close.

2.) It's the disorder speaking.

Now, putting yourself in the shoes of any reasonable person, which would you say is the safer bet?
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Re: Brief Essay

Post by Unidian »

The trouble is, you are using a particular ontology to make your thesis. So the whole process is incoherent from the start.

For example, the view that the Tao is beyond conceptualization rests on a particular ontological view of what the Tao is. It doesn't have any meaning without this ontological backing.
In what ontological category would you place the following statements?

Mu.

Don't know.

Buns.

Toilet brush.

Three pounds of flax.


Those are my descriptions of "ultimate reality." They are also those of historical Zen masters who recognize the trans-conceptual nature of reality.
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