DavidQuinn000 wrote:Does anyone have any idea what he is talking about?
Why not bring this back into the real world and provide some concrete examples.
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I have two
1- I exist and it is an unchanging reality that I am experience.
2- My experience is in a constant state of flux.
All other truth is derived from these inherent truths.
Diebert van Rhijn
Actually none of the actual writers of the NT or other writings of that age that mention Jesus seem to have been eyewitnesses or even contemporaries.
1 Corinthians 15:
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5. And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6. After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1 John 1:
1. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2. (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Certainly the authors claim to have eyewitness accounts and are contemporary.
Too many errors and borrowing of fragments from clearly older records have been found.
Can you give me a credible reference for that?
We are in the realm of fact; especially in consideration of recent releases and finds. Translations of Dead Sea and Nag Hammadi texts are verbatim with the standard text.
"We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80, two full generations before the date between 130 and 150 given by the more radical New Testament critics of today."
- William Albright, archaeologist
If anything the entire New Testament has not yet been found and/or translated. They are right now as we speak translating new segments and none have overturned the historical account. All are word for word when reading the same text.
To say nothing of non- Christian contemporary accounts that validate the text. I could go on but it would be redundent.
I embrace reality as it is, I choose not to live in denial.
Quote:
"The conversion of substantial regions of the Roman Empire before 100AD."
A pattern that repeated several times in the history of religions. What does it mean?
It means Jesus was a real person, how could you pull the wool over thousands of peoples eyes?
It is like saying Gautama was a figment of imagination even if thousands of people heard him preach.
mookestink,
You mentioned elsewhere that you are not the only person using this definition. Do you know any others in particular who can elaborate this view?
Here are some authors: Ralph Waldo Trine(In Tune With The Infinite), Joel S. Goldsmith(The infinite Way), and a really good book called Christ In You- by anonymous
Also, you seem to have the character of someone trying to save Christianity from Christians: have you found this enterprise to be fruitful?
What a superb question Mook. It is the fault of religious dogma that keep most from seeing the inherent great value of the brightest light that has yet to grace this planet.
When he returns do you know where he will show up?
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
"For now we see in a mirror, darkly(ENIGMA); but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known."
He will show up in you as you, how is that for a twist in Christianity?
DHodges,
Well, if you just want to say there was some preacher guy who lived 2000 years ago... I'm willing to grant that there were many.
Show me one other Jewish preacher/prophet that was crucified and claimed to be the messiah. This is specific in its readings of Dead Sea translations. The evidence is overwhelming - it is just suppressed. It was nearly fifty years before Christian experts could study these texts.
A couple of Dead Sea scroll stories from Biblical Archaeology
The Crucified Messiah Scroll
In 1991 the world was astonished to hear that one of the unpublished scrolls included incredible references to a "Messiah" who suffered crucifixion for the sins of men. The scroll was translated by Dr. Robert Eisenman, Professor of Middle East Religions of California State University. He declared, "The text is of the most far-reaching significance because it shows that whatever group was responsible for these writings was operating in the same general scriptural and Messianic framework of early Christianity." Although the original scroll team still claimed that there was no evidence about early Christianity in the unpublished scrolls, this new scroll totally contradicted their statements. This single scroll is earth-shaking in its importance. As Dr. Norman Golb, Professor of Jewish History at the University of Chicago said, "It shows that contrary to what some of the editors said, there are lots of surprises in the scrolls, and this is one of them."
"Nine New Testament fragments dated A.D. 50 to A.D. 100 have been discovered in a Dead Sea Cave." - Los Angeles Times
Part of the story
Dr. Jose O'Callaghan ultimately identified eight different scroll fragments from Cave Seven that appear to be quotes from New Testament passages. The scholarly magazine Bible Review ran a fascinating article on Dr. O'Callaghan, these scrolls, and their possible connection with the New Testament in an article in December, 1995.
The fragments appeared to O'Callaghan to be portions of the following verses from the Gospels and Paul's Epistles:
"For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself. . ." (Mark 4:28).
"And he saw them toiling in rowing; . . ." (Mark 6:48).
"And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar. . ." (Mark 12:17)
"And when they had eaten enough, they lightened the ship. . ." (Acts 27:38).
"And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. . ." (Romans 5:11-12).
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness. . ." (1 Timothy 3:16).
"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer. . ." (James 1:23-24).
Many more fragments are being translated right now.
Well, for instance, when you have two different accounts in the Bible that contradict each other, then obviously they are not both true. There are a variety of such. There are also stories which, if true, would be verifiable from sources outside the Bible.
There are no blatant contradictions in the New Testament, unless one is engaged in picking fly droppings out of pepper. In all fairness I have read all the atheistic criticisms of scripture. It is all trivialities and misses the heart of the story and message. It is apples and oranges to say that the New Testament is a 'book' as it is a collection of 'books'. There are 10 copies of Julias Caeser and thousands for Jesus.
Non Christian verification
Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, Lucian, Tacitus, Josephus, Thallus, Mara-Serapion, The Talmud.
"There exists no document from the ancient world, witnessed by so excellent a set of textual and historical testimonies . . . Skepticism regarding the historical credentials of Christianity is based upon an irrational bias."
-Clark Pinnock: Mcmaster University
"For the New Testament of Acts, the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming. Any attempt to reject its basic historicity, even in matters of detail, must now appear absurd. Roman historians have long taken it for granted."
-A. N. Sherwin-White: Classical Roman Historian
MK Faizi,
I do not believe in either sin or salvation
Those words have only the meaning one attributes to them. I was speaking in the Biblical sense or what is commonly meant by these terms.
Why, since you have asserted yourself as someone rather special -- because you have special understanding of sin and salvation -- do you refrain from condemning me?
That is for someone else, I do not condemn you. It is not a special meaning of words that gives meaning to anything unless in context.
Words are mere symbols of thought.
Because I can define neither, I am plainly condemned by your standards.
You are engaged with an imaginary foe.
what is it that causes you to refrain from condemnation?
You do not want to talk about salvation but you believe in condemnation?
My guess is that you are very slick. You posit yourself as a thinking individual when you are not different from Jerry Falwell.
You are not different from a Roman soldier.
My guess is that I am getting larger than your box and pigeon hole.
Because I believe that Jesus was actually born, died, and resurrected, that makes me unsound?
Have you experienced everything that you will experience?
Do you know everything that you will know?
Leyla Shen,
2000 odd years later and I am yet to see someone walk on water, no matter my expectations.
Your expectations are that it cannot be done. Ever wonder why that people find whatever it is they are looking for? A cop goes looking for what is wrong and wonder of wonders - he finds crime.
What a mystery.
Why did God only send down one son when, being God, he may have sent an army of them to not only walk on water, but to telepathically enlighten all beings before their insanity caused them to revolt (it’s a numbers game, you see)? What sick kind of game was this, exactly, whereby he created the heavens and the earth, good and evil, and then could not clean up the mess he made by sending down his only son? In fact, what the hell was he needing a martyr for in the first place? Does God understand the notion of all possibility?
He keeps sending down child after child after child. He keeps getting the same response, after all you do not believe in Jesus, why would you believe another child of God if you didn`t believe that one?
Yup I do understand the notion of all possibility, that is why God is expanding in and through what seems to be limitation. It is not a numbers game as there exists only one identity in the universe.
That would be who I AM.
He needed a martyr to expand the awareness of agape through resurrection.
But how can you understand my words when you have your fingers in your ears?
The answer lies in metaphor, not literalism. Don’t you see?
I am not a metaphor, I am reality and I am here talking to you now, don`t you see?
1. Christianity is being proclaimed falsely by Christians and the world alike by way of the fact that Christianity is not representative of a group of peoples who understand the true definitions of sin and salvation.
You are so busy trying to catagorize me you cannot see what it is I am writing. I was answering a specific statement about sin and salvation.
I do not believe the misconception of two words will throw the world into a tailspin.
2. Christians, and the world, do not understand that they, too, can walk on water.
Argue for your own limitations and you win the debate everytime.
I would say you do not believe you can do many things and now you want to criticise me for believing in the realm of all possibilities.
Who stole your faith in yourself?
3. Christianity is not like Peter Pan because Jesus was real and really did walk on water; if this assumption is not made, the Bible means no more than the story of Peter Pan: men can no more walk on water than they can fly.
That was not my point and you know that.
4. The first reason we know that Jesus existed and that the Bible is infallible -- an accurate and literal testimony of his life -- is because there were (according to the Dead Sea Scrolls?) thousands of eye witnesses.
There are no written words that will take the place of life experience.
And yes; according to the now released Dead Sea scrolls Jesus was a real guy.
5. The second reason we know that Jesus existed and that the Bible is…et cetera…is because some dude came along and said that Jesus was the Son of God, and that Mary was impregnated by God Himself, and many people are witness to this by virtue of the fact that Christianity notably expanded pre-100AD. (Tell me this is not the way you are interpreting it, because any other way would be metaphor. If Jesus‘s act of walking on water is to be taken literally, what is your take on the immaculate conception?)
You are twisting the facts to make an argument. It was not "some dude" that wrote the New Testament. I believe that Jesus was unique in the fact that he was the first who realized who he was with crystal clarity. It was his hope that you will to. I can see that you do not believe that is in the realm of 'probability' or 'possibility'.
Before you can experience beyond the five senses you first must let in a little light to the possibility. Open your mind to possibility.
First comes a mental coprehension of the reality of Spirit.
Second comes validation of the truth by non- ordinary reality or synchronistic experience.
Then we surrender to that which is larger than ourselves and lose ourselves to that which is eternal. We cease to exist and merge or blend into that which is called God. Eternal consciousness as demonstrated in the manifestation of the infinite state of humility.
Quote:
The intended result of the denegration of the reality of Christ is to lower the requirement so one can live in apathy to pure potential.
After some consideration, I think Kierkgaard is closer to the truth in that one sentence you quoted above.
"When Christianity entered the world it presupposed want, distress, the suffering of the anguished conscience, the hunger that cries out only for food – and then Christianity was the food. Nowadays we think that we have to offer appetizers before we can get people to enter into faith. We have changed Christianity from a radical cure into a minor precaution, like something used to prevent colds, toothaches, and the like. And strangely enough, although every inventor of drops, pills, and so on, "which do neither good nor harm," trumpets his medicine as a miracle balm, Christianity is proclaimed in very muted tones."
- Kierkgaard
"How fearfully true are Christianity’s metaphors. To cast fire upon the earth. Yes, for what is a Christian? A Christian is a person who is caught on fire. Spirit is fire, Christianity is fire-setting. And by nature we shrink more from this fire than from any other. The fire Christianity wants to light is not intended to burn up a few houses but to burn up the human zest for life – burn it out into spirit."
- Kierkgaard
sevens,
Do you have an interest in first-hand experiences of the 'spirit'?
We need Buddhas with computers.
Imagine that.
;) - If only - could it be possible? Yeah, but very improbable LOL