Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Liberty Sea » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:09 pm

Bob Michael wrote:"If while you are young you don't feel love, if you don't look with love at people, at animals, at flowers, when you grow up you will find that your life is empty; you will be very lonely, and the dark shadows of fear will follow you always."

"Only a mind and a heart that are full of love can see the whole movement of life. Then whatever he does, a man who possesses such love is moral, good, and what he does is beautiful."

(J. Krishnamurti)

What J. Krishnamurti meant by Love is absolutely different from the common sense definition of Love. His Love is Love for the Infinite. I mean, he practically rejected whatever people call Love, rejected every kind of attachment to normal relationships, which is why he could not reach people's heart.
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/love.html
http://www.abrahamingle.com/krishnamurti-on-friendship/
These two are very insightful articles.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Cory Duchesne » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:56 pm

Yes, very insightful. He was a good psychologist.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Dennis Mahar » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:07 pm

You can talk 'about' someone else as much as you like.
You can line up all the ducks in a row and attribute adverbs and adjectives to each and everyone of them.
This one can 'glow' and this one can 'stink'.

geddit?
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Cory Duchesne » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:31 pm

Oh I geddit. I get that you can't appreciate who you really are, which is everything around you. If a man is virtuous, don't be afraid to point out his virtue, for it becomes your own, you can join in friendship with humanity.

You're choosing to create error where there is none, and for that, you get judged. Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Nothingness is what most of you want.... complete annihilation of yourself (as opposed to self overcoming). I understand, the adult world is scary for you, but you're not doing yourself any favours blood sucking on a message forum.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Dennis Mahar » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:47 pm

Actually, it's an Act.

something Alex is opening up to and bringing in to the conversation..

game.

geddit?

So,
Krishnamurti is a good duck and gets to swim in Cory's pond.
Dennis is a bad duck and doesn't.

It's all about Cory.

eating the world.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby jupiviv » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:26 pm

Cory Duchesne wrote:Spirituality should be functional, involving networking and teamwork, with different talents. It's like sports. You play as a team. This requires energy, enthusiasm, a lack of apathy.


Spirituality can only serve the function of wisdom, and that may or may not require teamwork. If it does, then the teamwork comes after the wisdom.

For me, it's all about the swing into the Dionysian (chaos, socializing, error, tragedy) and back into the Apollonian. Back and forth, at your own pace of course, for the love of both humanity and Truth. It's possible to love both, and entirely logical, because hatred toward humanity is ridiculous as a final state of mind.


You can't serve two masters. Hatred is certainly not wise, but neither is love. The love of Truth necessitates the hatred of almost everything that is called "human." In the ultimate stage there is no love of Truth and as a result, no hatred of humanity. But as long as there is φιλοσοφία, there is hatred of humanity.

You say you are interested in psychology. Allow me to make a little psychological analysis of you, based on what I've read of your posts. I think you are trying to find a compromise between happiness and wisdom, by trying to merge the pursuit of happiness and wisdom. Be assured, you won't be able to do this without rejecting wisdom and replacing it with a decoy.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Elizabeth Isabelle » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:17 pm

Back on page 3, Kunga wrote:
Dennis Mahar wrote:
Being real is how we learn.


Does that mean 'throw a tantrum'?
Spill your guts?
Complain?
Gossip?
Wreak emotional havoc?
Be a 2 year old?
Get upset?

It's empty.



Yeah, it means just be yourself....by being yourself, warts and all, you can learn what needs to be worked on. If you hide behind some
pretentious facade , you're only fooling yourself.


What you is there? What self? What if this supposed self did not like a behavior, and stopped that behavior when and where that person could. Maybe at first it was only on the internet that the person could stop having temper tantrums - or maybe it was only offline. Then later the person was able to stop having temper tantrums in more and more situations until the person did not have temper tantrums anymore. At that point, it could be said that the person was not their "self" to have a temper tantrum. What was the facade? Was there one?
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Dennis Mahar » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:16 pm

What was the facade? Was there one?


A grid search came up empty.
causes/conditions.
pieces/parts
thinker with a thought.

A zen guy saw a cheshire cat for the first time and shouted spontaneously,
That's it!
God shot thru' and left a smile behind.

So Buddhahood is smile immersion.

What Buddhahood connotes is knowing all the moves,
all the viewpoints,
all laid out perfectly crisply in the mind's eye.
Crystal clear, radiant mind.

not liking moves is a move.
denying a move is a move is a move.

Always moving.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby cousinbasil » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:49 pm

Elizabeth wrote:What you is there? What self? What if this supposed self did not like a behavior, and stopped that behavior when and where that person could. Maybe at first it was only on the internet that the person could stop having temper tantrums - or maybe it was only offline. Then later the person was able to stop having temper tantrums in more and more situations until the person did not have temper tantrums anymore. At that point, it could be said that the person was not their "self" to have a temper tantrum. What was the facade? Was there one?

This is such a basic point that it is hardly surprising it gets trampled under and neglected. Good to have it mentioned.

Dennis says to be yourself, warts and all, implying that to do otherwise is some kind of facade - or some other undesirable phoniness. "To thine own self be true" means something more like what Elizabeth is saying. If you admit your failings to yourself, you can keep them from negatively impacting others. If your basic self is selfish and narcissistic, should you embrace these traits while thinking that you are merely being true to yourself, to your own nature?

Many people would not think of going about in public ungroomed or wearing filthy clothes; yet these same people neglect to work on the hurtful and thoughtless ways they treat those around them.

I once heard a comedian say rather testily in an interview, "I'm tired of hearing people say we should find our inner child! I think people should worry instead about working on their outer adult!"
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Dennis Mahar » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:13 pm

Dennis says to be yourself, warts and all, implying that to do otherwise is some kind of facade - or some other undesirable phoniness.


Kunga said I was phony for persitently mentioning emptiness, hiding behind a facade.

Who am I talking to, basil or brokie?
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Alex T. Jacob » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:03 am

To be able to understand what to do in life, you have to 'understand' what life is, which I think in the Gnostic sense is to understand what 'birth' is. At a later point there arises the possibility of understanding what 'rebirth' is, and again, according to 'gnosis', there is some mystery here to be grasped. But that second birth---and everyone has experienced something like that at one time or another---is an experience in consciousness. What occurs in that is almost beyond description because every vital element of personality and awareness comes into play.

But going back to the first problem or issue which is almost so grand of a question (What is Life?) that it sound ridiculous to pose it. But the following seems to be true: directly according to how you understand life, your existence, coming into existence, living temporally here, generally suffering a great deal but generally always suffering a tremendous amount at that point when you are forced to relinquish life and to die; according to how you grasp all that and define it, out of that arises your 'philosophy'. But it is much more than is normally connoted by that word. The way that we conceive our existing directly produces our religio: our way of acting, responding, interpreting.

But there are some very large problems here. Maybe it was always like this, it's hard to say, but in very significant ways we do not have any sort of universal concept or language to express What is Life? We are in the middle of a tremendous and momentous shift in how life is defined, understood, and lived. It sounds trite to reduce it to just a phrase about it, and much more could be said about it, but it seems to me that one could say: It is the main problem we face. I think we suffer a great deal of anxiety around this basic question. I was thinking more about Bob's outlook and the extreme trauma that events in terrestrial existence produce as I watched a documentary from the 70s on the Vietnam intervention: Hearts and Minds. I think it is accurate to say that, even if we find ways to deny it, to pretend it isn't so, or to expose ourselves to beauty and love, still at a core level we are traumatized. And more: it is Life itself, with its terrors, the terrors of birth and death, that is 'doing' this.

In the midst of all this and much much more, there we are: speaking about 'enlightenment', looking for certainty and some sort of conclusion by which we can live and face all this.

Briefly, this is how I have come to conceive this 'space' called GF: a wonderful but also overtly dysfunctional area of mental and spiritual bandwidth that has opened up in the Internet world. About half of the people who post here are outright nuts, but that only seems to point up the fact that existence, if internalized, perhaps if 'understood', even touched, is nothing else but an affair of madness and delirium. We all seem to look for and to need another platform, which again is a rather trite statement. It is more accurate to say that there is something in us that longs for solution, resolution, liberation. That, it seems, is one of the conditions of suffering and confusion. The desire for liberation (if only some level of sense) is actually born out of conditions of pretty extreme trauma.

But the question naturally comes to the fore: Who has and who describes accurately What is Life? What in fact is occuring here? Who am I in 'all this'? Why, how has it all come about? Where is it tending?

As far as I am concerned, anyone and any place where the Questions are brought out and discussed, considered, is a 'good' place. It does not surprise me at all that the place is a little mad (in a Mad Hatter sort of sense), and that it attracts people who are taking desperate steps to 'define reality' and their existence here in a way that makes sense of it all.

So, who here do you really think understands and describes Reality accurately? And whose program do you think is the 'right' one? Because if you make your definition, if you assert your conclusion, and you leave something out or don't quite Get It, then at that point (it seems so, doesn't it?) you may fall back down the rabbit's hole.

Obvioulsy, my own position is that something very important, speaking generally, is left out here. This space does not allow---this is quite important---a 'whole individual' to show up. It is a place of partialities. The QRS program, in fact, is one of severing-off from one's wholeness in the name of gain of some greater, some 'absolute' unity. Is that the route to go? Or, is that just a symptom of the problem (reflecting on Bob's ideas) of the extreme trauma we all face?
I can't go on. I'll go on.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Alex T. Jacob » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:20 am

Jupi writes: "You can't serve two masters. Hatred is certainly not wise, but neither is love. The love of Truth necessitates the hatred of almost everything that is called "human." In the ultimate stage there is no love of Truth and as a result, no hatred of humanity. But as long as there is φιλοσοφία, there is hatred of humanity. / You say you are interested in psychology. Allow me to make a little psychological analysis of you, based on what I've read of your posts. I think you are trying to find a compromise between happiness and wisdom, by trying to merge the pursuit of happiness and wisdom. Be assured, you won't be able to do this without rejecting wisdom and replacing it with a decoy."
Interesting: this seems to prove that we really do have to resort to 'psychology' and 'psychologizing' in order to sound out the positions of our fellow-traumatized (!) as they assemble, concretize and express their Program for Sane Living in the Realm of Madness.

The first thing that came to mind is that Jupe's statement reflects a dualistic platform: Two Masters? I have always admitted I have never quite gotten the use of the A=A tautology, but a capitalized Truth is in fact an abstract truth, and abstractions are ideals, not quite truths as I think truths must be expressed. If we define a platform where we separate (irreally, almost neurotically) from precisely that which we are (human, incarnated), I think that is not a solution but a symptom of the problem!

But here we are once again, right back in the Problem: our incarnation here, which incarnation in flesh and subject to flesh is and may always be suffering. We react against trauma, trauma makes us a little nutty, and getting nutty we seem to come up with strraaaannnnggggee programs.

Basically, to me, Jupi's φιλοσοφία, does not appear like a good solution, but more like a symptom of the problem.
I can't go on. I'll go on.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Alex T. Jacob » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:34 am

Actually, it's an Act.
Good to know. I have left the theatre but may come back if Act Two looks any good. The thing about your Act, Dennis, is that in the way you have set it up the 'you' that is perceived here is the only 'you' that is felt and understood. Something seems somehow disingenous, now, for you to say it or 'you' (or some part of you) in an Act. What part isn't Act?
__________________________________________________

Evening Star.

As the man said: "Musique magnifique, apaisante mais surtout pas superficielle... Ce sont des grosses têtes, des cérébraux, des intellectuels, tout ce que l'on veut... -d'ailleurs, il n'y a rien de préjudiciable à avoir la cervelle un peu structurée...MAIS CES DEUX GARS-LA ONT DU COEUR, DE L'EMOTION, DE LA MOELLE! Il n'y a pas d'incompatibilité entre les émotions et la réflexion..."
I can't go on. I'll go on.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby jupiviv » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:23 am

Alex T. Jacob wrote:The first thing that came to mind is that Jupe's statement reflects a dualistic platform: Two Masters? I have always admitted I have never quite gotten the use of the A=A tautology, but a capitalized Truth is in fact an abstract truth, and abstractions are ideals, not quite truths as I think truths must be expressed. If we define a platform where we separate (irreally, almost neurotically) from precisely that which we are (human, incarnated), I think that is not a solution but a symptom of the problem!


For a moment there I thought you were actually making an argument.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Cory Duchesne » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:27 am

jupiviv wrote:
Cory Duchesne wrote:Spirituality should be functional, involving networking and teamwork, with different talents. It's like sports. You play as a team. This requires energy, enthusiasm, a lack of apathy.


Spirituality can only serve the function of wisdom, and that may or may not require teamwork. If it does, then the teamwork comes after the wisdom.

For me, it's all about the swing into the Dionysian (chaos, socializing, error, tragedy) and back into the Apollonian. Back and forth, at your own pace of course, for the love of both humanity and Truth. It's possible to love both, and entirely logical, because hatred toward humanity is ridiculous as a final state of mind.


You can't serve two masters. Hatred is certainly not wise, but neither is love. The love of Truth necessitates the hatred of almost everything that is called "human." In the ultimate stage there is no love of Truth and as a result, no hatred of humanity. But as long as there is φιλοσοφία, there is hatred of humanity.

You say you are interested in psychology. Allow me to make a little psychological analysis of you, based on what I've read of your posts. I think you are trying to find a compromise between happiness and wisdom, by trying to merge the pursuit of happiness and wisdom. Be assured, you won't be able to do this without rejecting wisdom and replacing it with a decoy.


Creating the duality between Humanity and Truth is only for convenience in communication.

I develop the subjective aspect of my non-dual understanding of reality through engagement with humanity. Happiness is indeed rooted in misery, but that doesn't mean one completely avoids happiness or misery. They simply create each other, and wisdom is finding order in error, happiness in misery, learning in experience, ignorance in knowledge.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Alex T. Jacob » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:15 am

Well, Jupi, since the posts before it were really Questions I am not exactly in a position to argue. So I alluded. To allude is valid as a means of communication. I would 'argue' with you, and lose, but alluding is win-win!

Yours in Sheer Wonderfulness,

The Alexians
I can't go on. I'll go on.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Bob Michael » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:58 pm

Alex wrote:Or, is that just a symptom of the problem (reflecting on Bob's ideas) of the extreme trauma we all face?

Following is a revelation ('Evolutionarily Speaking') that came to me 'out of the blue' (as do most of my writings of late) the other day, which might help shed more light on the nature of the human dilemma ("trauma"), Alex. I could have continued on with it but chose not to. And forget not that I continue to maintain that through the process of evolution and its naturally inherent 'original sin' or 'fall' the consciences of most people have been irreparably malformed and consequently they cannot intuitively discern the true from the false, nor do they have any indepth and clear experiential understanding of themselves, their fellows, or what full and authentic human life and living is or could be. Consequently they live in self-will (self-centeredness) and they die in self-will, which is to never have really lived at all, or at least not consciously, fearlessly, meaningfully, and above all, joyfully. And only those who are fully conscious and free of all self-delusion and all self-will can be said to be truly and fully Enlightened.

Remember Christ's words on his way to the cross, Alex? "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." A lesson which he unfortunately learned too late. If you truly understood this you would stop your constant badgering and belittling others, as chances are they are lost and very likely incapable of ever being any different than who or what they are. Hence they simply 'know not what they do'. And if perchance they could radically change, badgering and belittling them isn't the way to help them to do so.
________________________________________________________

Evolutionarily Speaking.....

Human beings everywhere are a manifestation of 'original sin' or their environmental conditioning. Making man an inherently defective species of life which is not yet fully developed and perfected and consequently simply the current result of the natural evolutionary development of man. Therefore no one is responsible for their condition or their actions. Nor can human beings necessarily be said or held to be responsible for the dilemma they may be in or of ever overcoming it either.

But once in a while, through the happenstance of extraordinarily favorable environmental circumstances, a human being is produced who has and maintains sufficient organismal sensitivity to eventually become fully conscious of the fact that he is choicelessly living in 'original sin'. And that he is consequently himself a considerably defective member of the human species. Upon becoming aware of this he then sets out to consciously and painstakenly fully overcome his defective nature and actions and the developmental inhibiting living situations he may be in.

Eventually he comes to evermore clearly observe and understand himself and this universal human dilemma and then ponders deeply on why he has had this good fortune to be able break free from the consequences of original sin while no one else around him appears to have done so. He too comes to realize that in no way can he consider himself a self-made man, but that he is simply the product of the whole of life or evolution which includes the influences of virtually every human being he may have or may yet come in contact with. And whether these others are consciously awake and aware or not. He then goes on to reflect back over his life to see how other people and the circumstances of his life were and continue to be very vital and instrumental in his development, the eventual full awakening of his conscience or consciousness, and his never-ending development towards his own human perfection.

The latter being a very important step in order for him to attain to being of the best possible service in the awakening and liberation of his fellows. Having become fully awake or conscious and thereby free of all original sin and its accompanying self-delusion, ignorance, and defects of character he then becomes fully responsible for his own perfection and the perfection of a portion of the human species.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Bob Michael » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:45 pm

Liberty Sea wrote:What J. Krishnamurti meant by Love is absolutely different from the common sense definition of Love. His Love is Love for the Infinite.

Krishnamurti said the greatest of all gifts is "impersonal love". Meaning having true and abiding love for all human beings.

Liberty Sea wrote:I mean, he practically rejected whatever people call Love, rejected every kind of attachment to normal relationships, which is why he could not reach people's heart.

My view is that Krishnamurti's message or teaching was 'not geared' to reach people's hearts or to the very depths of their being. And especially as the years went on.

But rest assured, L S, he did not live entirely in vain. He passed the 'torch' on to me in Ojai back in '85 and I am carrying it forward.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby jupiviv » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:01 pm

Cory Duchesne wrote:Creating the duality between Humanity and Truth is only for convenience in communication.


Any distinction is for convenience. Indeed, the negation of any distinction is also for convenience. That is not the point. If "humanity" means one's attachments, and "truth" means wisdom, then the two are different things.

Happiness is indeed rooted in misery, but that doesn't mean one completely avoids happiness or misery.


You don't need to make any extra effort in avoiding happiness and misery once you understand their true nature. It happens automatically, just like water and kerosene don't mix together no matter how hard you may try to make them do so.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Jamesh » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:10 pm

For a moment there I thought you were actually making an argument.


For me the forum would have practically died by now without him.

There a bit of "synergy" happening recently, but it will die out again very soon. The QRS are essentially too old and too bored with this site to bother for much longer.

What I don't understand is the mindless status judgements relating to Alex. If dream lovers here place David at "top enlightenment level" (we can forget Dan and Kevin these days, they are not "current" in that category), then I cannot grasp why Alex's posts, thus Alex, is not considered to be so far above the mundane, delusional posts of the very attached that one sees in other forums, that he not would be cherished as forum member. Why does it have to Benson Hedges, as in “When only the very best will do”.

Those who have been here for a long time don't even need to follow whatever David says - because really its the same content all along - this forum is his tool to attract new possibilities. Quite rightly he views the forum as a tool for beginners, as if we are ever going to progress then all that should be needed is the setting on the right path early on, and all the rest is up the individual and should not actually require much discussion. He perhaps sees discussion for the entertainment it is.

With the view many here have of Alex, all I can point to is herd behaviour. The top chimp has said he aint worth listening to, so all the lesser chimps follow suit with the same attitude.

David does the same thing with certain WORTHY alternatives to his Top 10 Philosophers list - he denigrates them all (so as not to distract his students from the basics they need to understand, I presume, or perhaps its his un recognised guru ego). If you are NOT a complete beginner, you'd be advised to not listen to him in that regard. Explore them yourself.

For me, most of their preferred philosophers are more nutcases than not. At most 25% of their work is excellent (a lot of what they say has no originality, so cannot be counted)- but the rest is just them caught in their own narcissist ego (or in the case of Kierkegaard, sadomasochism).

Alcohol really brings out the "best" of my aggression, doesn't it :)
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Dan Rowden » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:34 pm

But not your coherence.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby cousinbasil » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:25 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:
Dennis says to be yourself, warts and all, implying that to do otherwise is some kind of facade - or some other undesirable phoniness.


Kunga said I was phony for persitently mentioning emptiness, hiding behind a facade.

Who am I talking to, basil or brokie?

If you look over to the side of the post, it tells you who wrote the post, Numb-nuts.
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Alex T. Jacob » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:54 am

Recognition of and praise for The Alexians, you must admit Dan, is in itself coherence. To arrive at that understanding one must have internalized coherence. It wouldn't matter if you blathered it, expostulated, sang or intoned it---or just sat there drooling. The relative intelligence of members of this forum is directly proportional to understanding The Alexian revelation. Soon, we will put it in videos on YouTube and may even compete with you! I am taking voice lessons! My 'message' will be based on this. True, it's really pretty 'entry level' stuff. But you got t'hook 'em somehow...
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Bob Michael » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:02 am

Paul on Love.....

If I could speak in any language in heaven or on earth but didn't love others, I would only be making meaningless noise like a loud gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I knew all the mysteries of the future and knew everything but didn't love others, what good would I be? And if I had the gift of faith so that I could speak to a mountain and make it move, without love I would be no good to anybody. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it but if I didn't love others, I would be of no value whatsoever.

Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged. It is never glad about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

Love will last forever, but prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will all disappear. Now we know only a little, and even the gift of prophecy reveals little! But when the end comes, these special gifts will all disappear.

It's like this: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child does. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now.

There are three things that will endure - faith, hope, and love - and the greatest of these is love.

(Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians - Chapter 13)
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Re: Intuition and the Wordless Nerve

Postby Jamesh » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:46 am

Dan
But not your coherence.


Yes, I always regret having a disordered mind when it leads to bitchiness as contained in my above post. When having been unnecessarily nasty, as in "what is going to be achieved by it", I do feel rather insane.

Incoherence, well yes. I'm always in two minds about practically everything, making coherence harder to create, especially for my little undisciplined brain. It doesn’t bother me much though, as such is reality - I've not seen anything that can’t be looked at from two equally valid and complimentary opposing perspectives.

Still after taking out the bitchiness I wouldn't retract what I was getting at, even though "make the forum interesting, attract intelligent, good communicators, thus entertaining discussion" and "think for yourself, don’t trust the QRS" and "all the forum is for beginners, understand the QRS basics and move on" and my posting here, and probably other things I don’t see, is not logically consistent.
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Jamesh
 
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