Underrated Scientists/Philosophers.

[cousinbasil]

All I’m doing is rejecting the idea that Einstein was some sort of spiritual genius. He wasn’t. He was an amateur. He occasionally tinkled out “Chopsticks” on his philosophic piano every now and then and that was about it. He was nowhere on the level of a Huang Po, or a Kierkegaard, or a Buddha. You need to get real, Carmel.

Sticking with the musical metaphor, Einstein was as accomplished a philosopher as he was was a violinist...

Wisdom is all about awakening people to the great nirvanic reality which is all around us. Einstein never encouraged people in that way, for he himself was entirely ignorant of this reality and all of his writings reflect this.

Perhaps real wisdom lies in knowing one's own limitations and strengths and acting accordingly.

[cousinbasil]

And how did this thread get to be about Einstein, anyway? Isn't the topic "Underrated Scientists/Philosophers?"

[guest_of_logic]

Over the past couple of days, I've been referred to as an absolutist, an egotist, someone who is out to fool his sycophants, having hissy fits, a fake, a bigot, an intellectual simpleton - it's a non-stop torrent of abuse on your part.

Huh. Come on, David, now you're just "whinging like a woman".

[cousinbasil]

To be fair, Laird, David's not the only one who cringes when women whing. I know every time I hear a woman whing, my mind just balks - I have no idea what she is whinging about.

[David Quinn]

Over the past couple of days, I've been referred to as an absolutist, an egotist, someone who is out to fool his sycophants, having hissy fits, a fake, a bigot, an intellectual simpleton - it's a non-stop torrent of abuse on your part.

Huh. Come on, David, now you're just "whinging like a woman".

What can I say? Carmel brings out the woman in me. And I bring out the man in her. We probably interact sexually with one another on that level.

:)

[Carmel]

...hmm, I don't know, but that may explain my unusual and deviant impulse to smack your ass whilst calling you 'Judy'. :)

[David Quinn]

And my impulse to keep sticking it out there to get smacked....

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[David Quinn]

Not sure who's flirting with who now ....

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[guest_of_logic]

David, every one of your posts is sexual in nature. I'm starting to wonder whether you're spiritually juvenile and ought to be banned from the board. Well, that or a damned good paddling.

[guest_of_logic]

Cousinbasil, stop whinging about whinging. And yes, I'll stop whinging about you whinging about whinging.

[David Quinn]

David, every one of your posts is sexual in nature. I'm starting to wonder whether you're spiritually juvenile and ought to be banned from the board. Well, that or a damned good paddling.

Not sure what you mean. My posts are about encouraging people to thrust their minds deep into the Infinite and to keep doing it until they break through into the bliss of enlightenment. I can't see anything sexual in that.

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[Loki]

David, I think you are a very interesting person with some exceptional qualities - I for one have learned important things from you, and I have much respect for you. But I'm growing a little concerned that you're life purpose is a tad.... well, it seems, to some signiciant degree, like escapism. As if you are not confronting and dealing with things? For instance, to me, personal survival is something I value - to the point where I might get involved with "survivalists" who anticipate societal collapse and have the skills and resources to overcome unexpected hardship. I get the impression that you, Kevin and Dan are very much at the whims of other peoples choices, meaning, when things go to hell, you're going down the toilet drain with them, because you are dependent on them. I just think you guys are missing an important part of what "wisdom" is. Furthermore, you have no real certainty that the brain can ever be free from fear and irrationality - because the brain responds to sensory inputs. The inputs come into your mind and the hardware of your brain reacts. Sure, you can block out all consciousness of sensory info in order to not feel it, but what happens when circumstances get a little harsh and you have to scramble and hustle a bit to survie? You're gonna open your eyes and have to deal with raw nature, and your brain will react accordingly. I doubt your abstractions are going to be too effective when pitted with tough circumstances. I'm sure you will be more calm than many folks, due to your naturally calm temperament and philosophical training, but there will be emotions and also a lack of practical skills for surviving on your own.

As for Carmel, Laird and your other critics, I have no interest in their criticisms of you, I don't find their concerns very interesting. From my perspective, they are as ill prepared for surviving without civilization as you are, maybe more so.

As for myself, I too am very much dependent on the protection of civilization, and if anything serious were to happen that brought my civilization to it's knees, I would be very useless as well. Hence, I wouldn't consider myself very wise.

[guest_of_logic]

Not sure what you mean.

It was irony. A reference to the circumstances of the first time you banned me. I guess you missed it.

[Blair]

Who missed whose irony?..

[guest_of_logic]

Oh, gotcha. I probably missed it because I wasn't expecting David to undermine his own message.

[David Quinn]

David, I think you are a very interesting person with some exceptional qualities - I for one have learned important things from you, and I have much respect for you. But I'm growing a little concerned that you're life purpose is a tad.... well, it seems, to some signiciant degree, like escapism. As if you are not confronting and dealing with things? For instance, to me, personal survival is something I value - to the point where I might get involved with "survivalists" who anticipate societal collapse and have the skills and resources to overcome unexpected hardship.

Are you expecting it to all collapse pretty soon?

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[Ryan Rudolph]

Loki,

I wouldn't consider myself very wise.

You seem to be confusing what wisdom means at its core. It means that you discover state of mind that is not dramatically effected by causal conditions.

Meaning, if a war breaks out in your country, or the government destroys its own currency, or even worse - Laird starts a positivist spiritual rock band that tours the world...you are not devastated. You simply accept things. That doesn't mean that you do not respond in order to minimize your own survival related distress, but the animal part of you doesn't take control, because your higher faculties are the master, regardless of the situation.

Enlightenment is all about learning how to accept death in every moment, in every breath. It doesn't mean trying to control and understand every aspect of civilization in order to maximize your chances of survival. Such an exercise quickly becomes neurotic and is the result of an acute awareness of death probably caused by a glimpse moment of consciousness.

The reverse extreme can be observed with the Christians. This life means nothing, and their focus is on the afterlife because it shelters them from their acute fear of death, and the anxiety they have for not achieving a higher financial status. That is why it is the next life that matters, and that is why they are all fatalistic in their attitudes and hoping for the end of the world.

Hey, here's a joke for you:

What did the Christian say to the angel minutes after he died, and was looking around Heaven? Answer: "This isn't it at all, where's my high position next to Jesus?!, oh no, something has gone terribly wrong, it must be the next afterlife after this place that Jesus promised us!"

[cousinbasil]

The reverse extreme can be observed with the Christians. This life means nothing, and their focus is on the afterlife because it shelters them from their acute fear of death, and the anxiety they have for not achieving a higher financial status.

Unlike the Jews. They all talk about god but get pretty tight-lipped on the subject of an afterlife. That's because their lives center around achieving the higher financial status here and now in this world. Is that what you are saying?

So by your logic, Christians actually do not have an acute fear of death because they are sheltered from it. Who is it then that has the acute fear of death? Certainly not the Muslims. The party is on the other side, where all the virgins are. There's the real joke. They get to spend eternity with hordes of beautiful women that are virgins - they won't put out!

[Ryan Rudolph]

CB,

Unlike the Jews. They all talk about god but get pretty tight-lipped on the subject of an afterlife. That's because their lives center around achieving the higher financial status here and now in this world. Is that what you are saying?

There can be many reasons why someone will cling to delusional fantasies of an afterlife. Many times, the fantasy is created out of a discontent with this life, and they bury their discontent in the here and now by becoming satisfied with some afterlife fantasy. Discontent can result in feelings of powerlessness, aniexty, fear and all the rest of it. And they react by projecting a fantasy in the afterlife where they are powerful, happy, on top. etc and so on.

So by your logic, Christians actually do not have an acute fear of death because they are sheltered from it. Who is it then that has the acute fear of death? Certainly not the Muslims. The party is on the other side, where all the virgins are. There's the real joke. They get to spend eternity with hordes of beautiful women that are virgins - they won't put out!

You miss the point. The fantasy is created out of an unsatisfied longing in this life, and the thought of that longing not being satisfied creates a huge amount of fear, anxiety, powerlessness, and all the rest of it. Imagine, an uneducated muslim male who is unable to find a female mate, and then some religious wacko comes along, and convinces him that it is his destiny to find love in the next life. I think that is what happens, he believes the person, and relieves his unresolved emotional pain by believing in some future delusion in an afterlife.

The fear of death ties in because what pushes the person to delusion is that they may imagine the possibility of themselves not achieving a higher status, a pretty wife, children, etc and so on, and their minds cannot handle the sorrow of such an outcome, so their minds crack, and they project fantasies where these drives are satisfied.

To be more accurate, it is a fear of not succeeding in life by the time of death, or an actual realization in the possibility of ones own morality that fuels delusions of an afterlife.

[cousinbasil]

You miss the point.

I am ducking it, rather.

I don't think people fantasize about an afterlife any more than they fantasize about the future of the life they hope to have or build before they die. No one knows the future with any certainty, so a lot of energy goes into trying to plan one. You seem to think a large amount of people's energy goes into constructing some elaborate afterlife scenario. Do you do that? I don't. I don't know anyone who does. If the outlines of a putative afterlife takes shape somewhere in one's peripheral vision, it is just instant karma, debts and balances which one's inner sense of justice keeps on hand just in case.

The point I am ducking, of course, is that everyone dies. But since everyone knows that everyone dies there is little sense taking the point.

My guess is that if there is an afterlife, flying a plane into a building in this life won't make it any better. Sorry, no additional virgins. The terrorism phenomenon is wholly political. People with deep discontents are sought out and are made to be more discontent, while at the same time their beautiful reward is supplied to them in the name of religion. Organized religion has a shitty enough track record already, IYAM. Can't pin terrorism on Islam, say.

[Blair]

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!

Somebody said that once upon a time.

[Ryan Rudolph]

CB,

You seem to think a large amount of people's energy goes into constructing some elaborate afterlife scenario. Do you do that? I don't.

No, but many do. However, I wouldn't call it elaborate. Human fantasy is actually quite over simplistic and cartoon like. And afterlife beliefs are similar, not very well thought out, and usually riddled with logical errors. One can tell that they were not cognitively created to make sense, but rather to make the thinker feel good, as a means to escape whatever negative emotion they are evading in the present.

Truthfully, I don't see an afterlife delusion all that different from someone who believes they will be a famous rock star, yet they have no music skills, and are taking no steps to getting there, but they tell everyone they are on that path. These types of delusions are the result of feeling inadequate, anxious, powerlessness etc..of ones life situation, while lacking the mental tools to clear up the mess in a logical manner.

Many times, delusion is essentially the belief in fantasy.

[cousinbasil]

Human fantasy is actually quite over simplistic and cartoon like. And afterlife beliefs are similar, not very well thought out, and usually riddled with logical errors. One can tell that they were not cognitively created to make sense, but rather to make the thinker feel good, as a means to escape whatever negative emotion they are evading in the present.

I wouldn't have it any other way. I want the guy who changes my oil and fixes my brakes to be on an even keel. Personally, I don't know that human fantasy is any one thing, since to know what anyone else's fantasies are like involves their conveying a sense of them to me, and I don't want that. I will indulge in the arts if they are well done, but someone would have to pay me to listen to his fantasies in general because I am not interested. So I don't know if you are right about human fantasy being cartoonlike. I would think it would be no less rife with logical errors than one's processing of everyday life, and most people are probably rational up to a point but not a very high one. But again, anything that helps a neurosurgeon escape negative emotions is probably beneficial for his patient, as long as it is not a pint of Bushmills under the operating table.

[Ryan Rudolph]

CB,

Well, aren't you the compassionate one, constantly pushing for humanity to become their highest self....

Btw, I believe one can perform a task or function within society without constantly needing escapism. Part of the problem is the long hours employers require, and the other problem is people doing jobs that bore them, or cause physical/mental pain, (usually because of long hours) or they are only doing them for the money.

Another problem is that employees expect life to be something other than it is. They leave their college and universities expecting all work life to be something not so tedious, repetitive and unchallenging on every level. However, most jobs are just conforming to some pattern of physical or mental movement in order to keep civilization humming along.

work is like playing a video game that you've already mastered over and over again. There is rarely anything new or anything that sparks the hippocampus to fire.

And so fantasy becomes a refuge.

[cousinbasil]

Well, aren't you the compassionate one, constantly pushing for humanity to become their highest self....

I have my moments.

And I have learned that whatever spot upon humanity you choose to push on, humanity pushes back. So I have become more selective in my approach. Listen, if I see someone who needs a life preserver I'm not about to toss him an anvil. But I sure do not go out looking to help people, that part of my life is thankfully over.

Sometimes you are not doing a person any favors by getting involved with his/her issues. All my life I have heard "you are easy to talk to." Yes, well, how about you are not so easy to listen to? Women are especially good at bending my ear. They seem to be too ready to let someone else do their thinking for them. If my little head doesn't get to do some of that thinking, my big head tends to get bored.