There is no logic for existence

[Pincho Paxton]

logic is not logical in this case. logic is created by the mind and the mind is illogical.

i think we should examine how things can be logical if they are solely based on human thought. what came first, the chicken or the egg? in other terms, logic or the thought of logic?

The egg came first, I worked it out a few months ago.

[jufa]

logic is not logical in this case. logic is created by the mind and the mind is illogical.

i think we should examine how things can be logical if they are solely based on human thought. what came first, the chicken or the egg? in other terms, logic or the thought of logic?

Finally someone has caught the vision that what one is unaware of cannot be logically thought upon, analyzed, nor discussed from a human intellectual mind. Why????

What came first, the female egg, or the male sperm? What happens when the sperm penatrate the egg? they merge and become one unit. So how can the chicken come before the egg, or the egg come before the chicker when they are one and the same unit?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Pincho Paxton]

logic is not logical in this case. logic is created by the mind and the mind is illogical.

i think we should examine how things can be logical if they are solely based on human thought. what came first, the chicken or the egg? in other terms, logic or the thought of logic?

Finally someone has caught the vision that what one is unaware of cannot be logically thought upon, analyzed, nor discussed from a human intellectual mind. Why????

What came first, the female egg, or the male sperm? What happens when the sperm penatrate the egg? they merge and become one unit. So how can the chicken come before the egg, or the egg come before the chicker when they are one and the same unit?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

The egg came first, and as it is a chicken egg it was truly evolved already, and fertilization was evolved from other creatures. What you need to do is go back before the chicken to a prehistoric creature that was just an egg without fertilization, then evolve forward to the chicken which is extremely complex.

[jufa]

The egg came first, and as it is a chicken egg it was truly evolved already, and fertilization was evolved from other creatures. What you need to do is go back before the chicken to a prehistoric creature that was just an egg without fertilization, then evolve forward to the chicken which is extremely complex.

You didn't go back far enough, because you did not tell us what it was that cause the unit egg to become an egg. Remember, for every effect, there must be a cause.

Dealing with effects [egg] tells only a partial story. By not giving the whole story means you are giving a partial truth.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Pincho Paxton]

The egg came first, and as it is a chicken egg it was truly evolved already, and fertilization was evolved from other creatures. What you need to do is go back before the chicken to a prehistoric creature that was just an egg without fertilization, then evolve forward to the chicken which is extremely complex.

You didn't go back far enough, because you did not tell us what it was that cause the unit egg to become an egg. Remember, for every effect, there must be a cause.

Dealing with effects [egg] tells only a partial story. By not giving the whole story means you are giving a partial truth.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

The very first egg was a creature which ate a creature from inside its body, the creature was therefore dead, and evolved into the white of an egg, as in being born dead to begin with. Before that there was birth inside a bubble of liquid. Before that there was movement stirring inside a bubble which died quickly as it had no nourishment.

[IJesusChrist]

Jufa, get a grip bud.

Really.

[jufa]

The very first egg was a creature which ate a creature from inside its body, the creature was therefore dead, and evolved into the white of an egg, as in being born dead to begin with. Before that there was birth inside a bubble of liquid. Before that there was movement stirring inside a bubble which died quickly as it had no nourishment.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I said, I will say it again:

You didn't go back far enough, because you did not tell us what it was that cause the unit egg to become an egg. Remember, for every effect, there must be a cause.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Pincho Paxton]

The very first egg was a creature which ate a creature from inside its body, the creature was therefore dead, and evolved into the white of an egg, as in being born dead to begin with. Before that there was birth inside a bubble of liquid. Before that there was movement stirring inside a bubble which died quickly as it had no nourishment.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I said, I will say it again:

You didn't go back far enough, because you did not tell us what it was that cause the unit egg to become an egg. Remember, for every effect, there must be a cause.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

Two different creatures mating created a new creature. So a chicken would be made from two pre-mutations of a chicken. Like I said, you didn't go back far enough, so now I am having to go over the obvious stages. you will now ask where those two creatures came from.. you will end up at my original post.

[jufa]

Hi Pincho! You stated:

Two different creatures mating created a new creature. So a chicken would be made from two pre-mutations of a chicken. Like I said, you didn't go back far enough, so now I am having to go over the obvious stages. you will now ask where those two creatures came from.. you will end up at my original post.

In returning to your original post:

The egg came first, I worked it out a few months ago.

which, as the opening quote, does not answer my question:

So how can the chicken come before the egg, or the egg come before the chicker when they are one and the same unit?

You proceeded to answer with the following:

The egg came first, and as it is a chicken egg it was truly evolved already, and fertilization was evolved from other creatures.

Which defys the nature law and principle "Everything after its kind." Cross breeding came about because of man.

So we are back to my question:

what it was that cause the unit egg to become an egg. Remember, for every effect, there must be a cause.

which then leads to your stated to me would be my next question:

you will now ask where those two creatures came from..

Being your original post has been nullified, I'll again as you to give me a cause for the creatures, and the egg to find life to begin with.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength -jufa

[Pincho Paxton]

Hi Pincho! You stated:

Two different creatures mating created a new creature. So a chicken would be made from two pre-mutations of a chicken. Like I said, you didn't go back far enough, so now I am having to go over the obvious stages. you will now ask where those two creatures came from.. you will end up at my original post.

In returning to your original post:

The egg came first, I worked it out a few months ago.

which, as the opening quote, does not answer my question:

So how can the chicken come before the egg, or the egg come before the chicker when they are one and the same unit?

You proceeded to answer with the following:

The egg came first, and as it is a chicken egg it was truly evolved already, and fertilization was evolved from other creatures.

Which defys the nature law and principle "Everything after its kind." Cross breeding came about because of man.

So we are back to my question:

what it was that cause the unit egg to become an egg. Remember, for every effect, there must be a cause.

which then leads to your stated to me would be my next question:

you will now ask where those two creatures came from..

Being your original post has been nullified, I'll again as you to give me a cause for the creatures, and the egg to find life to begin with.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength -jufa

I've already answered you, you now only have the option to understand my answer.

The very first egg was a creature which ate a creature from inside its body, the creature was therefore dead, and evolved into the white of an egg, as in being born dead to begin with. Before that there was birth inside a bubble of liquid. Before that there was movement stirring inside a bubble which died quickly as it had no nourishment.

[David Quinn]

David Quinn Wrote:

Take care that you don't die, then, or we'll all be stuffed.

Die, how can that which is death die? How can the untimate everything cease to be?

You did say you were the ALL.

Perhaps I made the mistake of taking what you wrote seriously, but I for one hope that you don't die soon.

It is impossible for the ALL to have a beginning, since whatever we care to pin-point as being "the" cause of the All will necessarily be part of the ALL itself.

Philosophy is all about recognizing what is real. It isn't about chasing phantoms just for the sake of it. There is no point asking where the ALL came from if it is logically impossible for it to have come from anywhere in the first place.

Understanding this point is part of understanding the logic of existence.

The opening sentence void death as David mentioned in the beginning of this post herein, for should it be impossible for the All to have a beginning, it is impossible for the All to have an ending. Is not death, as you have indicated above, an ending? Again, this is not about understanding the logic OF existence, but what is the logic FOR existence

How can recognition of what is real be accomplished when a beginning to Reality cannot be logically defined?

Why should the fact of Reality's beginninglessness prevent you from recognizing what is real?

There is no doubt what men think as reality is multi-faceted. But just as equal, there is no doubt what religious people, atheist, theist or you and I think of reality is also multi-faceted. Yet what is reality in the sense of commonality? Sure one can say it is being born, becoming aware of what one is born into, living according to the standards and beliefs of collective commonality, and then dying to be no more. One can say that birth is not the beginning to life, living in the arch of life and dying is not the end. Who then has defined logic for reality?

To see, hear, touch, taste, and smell does not define reality. They only define fragments of awareness. And as this awareness is subjective, it is subjective because it poses in an individuals outer objective vision of objectiveness as: could be, not sure, I think, but I don't know. So then, can the human viewpoint be taken as serious as man thinks it should be?

If it is truthful, then yes, absolutely.

The fact that our senses are limited doesn't prevent us from understanding the fundamentals of existence - e.g. that all things are causally-created, that Nature is beginningless and endless, that the self is an illusion, etc. The human mind has the ability, via abstract reasoning, to go beyond its subjectivity and ascertain objective facts, in the form of logical truths.

Our world is always the subjectivity of our objectivity. Everything man is subject to is the object of what he is aware of. Man's awareness, however, is an interpretational experience of experiments of the object to find what that object is subject to. No object of logic has been introduced in this thread for existence to exist.

There has, but you haven't been paying attention. You're too caught up in your own thoughts to listen properly to what others are saying to you.

The basis of all science, philosophy, and religion is to take that which it is aware of in order to find out what it is not aware of. So with man. Man take that which he is mentally aware of to find that which he is not aware of, and this mean he has to be bold enough to go where no man has gone before, and no man has ever gone into the depth of logic, for it is impossible because each man's world of logic is defined by their experience of experiments of interpretation, which means only by an individual's objective visions, and subjective feelings which only he can experience in vision and feelings can be their reality of living within this dimension, but not their logic for existence.

I can't speak for you, but I have gone into the very depths of logic and have had no problem unearthing those logical truths which necessarily apply to all subjective awarenesses. That is what a logical truth is - it is a truth which is logical in nature and necessarily true in all possible worlds, including every subjective consciousness.

To ask what is the logic for existence is the same as asking what is consciousness. This is not asking about occurrences, memory serves this purpose. To ask what logic or consciousness is, is to ask what is this life in me that allows me to think, perceive, that is intuitive, which allows me to remember, feel, will, and empathize. What am I to be able to experience? It is impossible to look from the position of your mind to find the answers to these questions, because what you have observed is relativity of interpretation. But relative interpretation is not cognitive validation that allows you to even begin to pinpoint what the ligic for existence could be, because there is no beginning to the "All" of logic. So one is always expounding their own subjectivity in hopes of harmonizing with the objectivity of what they believe they are logically thinking even though there is no beginning to their logic of thought. How can there be when, to use your words: "it is impossible for All to have a beginning."

So, somehow, you have managed to peer into the minds of utterly every being in the universe - past, present and future - and determined that they all lack the capacity to understand objective truth?

How have you been able to escape the limitations of your own subjectivity in order to determine this?

-

[Nick]

Understanding the nature of existence would be such an easy thing to do if people didn't get so caught up in appearances and emotional attachment, but that's exactly what makes it the most difficult thing to do. It goes against everything we are taught in life and even millions of years of evolution, making it oh-so-easy to lose touch with, and cripple our ability to ever have a shot at understanding.

[jufa]

David Quinn, glad you stepped back in. Let's forego all the garbage talk and and ride this bull the way it should be rode.

Let us return to the subject matter. There is no logic for the universe because there is no logic for existence. There is no logical reason for mankind to exist. There is no logical reason for this universe to exist. There is no logical reason for you and I to exist

David tell me … logically, how do you find meaning for your existence through the mind's secular text, when your understanding of the text is so clearly based uipon hand -me-down knowledge which you have no exact concept of, nor one iota of reasoning for the text's purpose, because the only purpose of meaning to you is your purpose, which can only be found within you, and not on hearsay?

My position here is there is no logic for existence. What you have said in your last post to me has no logic, because had you as you have stated gone into the depth of contemplation reasoning, which moves into intuitive mental-ism, you would have told me about the barrier you reach that end your contemplative reasoning, and limited you in the catch-22 of your humanity. That limitation, there is no amount of transcendental rising in your human reasoning which will reveal to you what logic there is for existence, not to mention your own existence. You know why you can't declare a logic for existence, and therefore dwell and base your living on temporal effects? Because when what takes place upon and within you should not exist, because that taking place within you is simply based on the fact that nothing else exist in the universe such as the likes of you, the earth, the world, and all therein. Thus the question which should be prominent, at all times, in your consciousness, is how can I through my mind which does not transcend itself because there is no logical reason for my mind to be, know what is the logic which produced my mind in the beginning, and for what purpose?

In approaching this avenue of honesty, you must truly ask yourself the questions I presented earlier to you, since you are a participant of this thread: what have I done to cause my birth? What have I done that gives me the power of conscious awareness? What have I done that is
the cause of my being able to respond to a thought, a concept, a theory, or even the activity of thought, whether intuitive, transcendental, or physiological? What is it that I have done to give myself life, and cause myself to deny, or accept there is a power greater than I, which I can't even begin to fathom? And then answer these questions. If you are not in denial, you can only come to the conclusion that I am not the cause of anything concerning my life, not even the thoughts I think and have presented to others, because anything I have thought and presented are the thoughts passed down to me through DNA, and verbalism from the first thinker to succeeding generations, onto myself which has shaped my mind today. And therefore the reality of me is that I can have no effect upon my life unless I become an original thinker. You can't do that, because if you have not gone through the mind to get beyond the mind, you have no place to go but to the grave yard of the mind, and feed from dead thoughts, which makes you a walking dead man.

Now should you be truly honest with yourself, and acknowledge I am not the cause of me, thus not the cause of my ability to do anything that will not end up in the grave yard of the mind, you will realize in earnest conclusion. . . . truth has nothing to do with you. That truth deals only with the "I" which is the cause/effect, effect/cause of everything that has been created, and that "I" is in Pure Consciousness, and Pure Consciousness is in the "I", because they are one and the same.

Everyone defines the world. It's how sentience puts the world into order. Problems arise when one becomes rigid about ones definition in relation to another's. All things which are issued forth from the human mind are the minds product. Myth and metaphors, as follow your ideas,etc, etc are no exception, are alll isms of individual suffering and struggling and human interpretations of only the fragmented pieces which that individual mind has grasped of those thoughts you gathered up from the grave yard of the mind.

With this post, as all post which has been analyzed, and accept as either yes, that is it, or no, I do not agree, also being projection, then no philosophy, religion, myth, or metaphor can take anyone beyond assimilation. Example: First there came Horus, and Isis, and the likes, which blended into the Jesus mythology. Then the shaman who, as Moses went to the mountain top. The shaman realized the reality of omnipresence reality. Moses realized the ass of God in his face. Both returned from the mountain top. One has to be breathed upon to regain consciousness of his flesh. One has to become discussed and breaks the laws to realize it is never about the man, it has always been about obedience to the mystery of the metapor man is living. No philosophy, religion, myth or metaphor will ever burst the bubble of cause/effect, nor dualist, nor the universal human mind which does not allow ascension beyond the isms and assimilations.

Say what you want, believe what you may, but one thing is certain, one day you will find yourself looking down on you wonder why your beliefs did not save you from - Oh, oh oh, oh, wait, wait, they are shutting the lid. What are you going to do then with your philosophy, religion, beliefs, and isms? I know what I'm going to do, because I know my continuum of living is not predicated on death nor life of the mind. My life is the journey of the continuum of the infinite life of being the ever renewing, every unfolding expression of infinite life.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[David Quinn]

David Quinn, glad you stepped back in. Let's forego all the garbage talk and and ride this bull the way it should be rode.

Let us return to the subject matter. There is no logic for the universe because there is no logic for existence. There is no logical reason for mankind to exist. There is no logical reason for this universe to exist. There is no logical reason for you and I to exist

If you mean there is no intrinsic reason why humanity exists, as opposed to not existing, then I would agree with you: there is no logical reason for humanity's existence. Humanity only exists by virtue of being caused to exist, via the process of evolution.

Moreover, humanity's existence isn't inherently special in any way. Nature doesn't care whether humanity exists or not. That humanity does exist is merely an accidental by-product of causal processes, the same as anything else.

David tell me … logically, how do you find meaning for your existence through the mind's secular text, when your understanding of the text is so clearly based uipon hand -me-down knowledge which you have no exact concept of, nor one iota of reasoning for the text's purpose, because the only purpose of meaning to you is your purpose, which can only be found within you, and not on hearsay?

I don't rely on any texts or pieces of second-hand knowledge to find meaning in life. I rely strictly on my own mind and its ability to apprehend truth. Having said that, I do find becoming conscious of the nature of Reality to be meaningful, and I base my life around that.

My position here is there is no logic for existence. What you have said in your last post to me has no logic, because had you as you have stated gone into the depth of contemplation reasoning, which moves into intuitive mental-ism, you would have told me about the barrier you reach that end your contemplative reasoning, and limited you in the catch-22 of your humanity. That limitation, there is no amount of transcendental rising in your human reasoning which will reveal to you what logic there is for existence, not to mention your own existence. You know why you can't declare a logic for existence, and therefore dwell and base your living on temporal effects? Because when what takes place upon and within you should not exist, because that taking place within you is simply based on the fact that nothing else exist in the universe such as the likes of you, the earth, the world, and all therein. Thus the question which should be prominent, at all times, in your consciousness, is how can I through my mind which does not transcend itself because there is no logical reason for my mind to be, know what is the logic which produced my mind in the beginning, and for what purpose?

You underestimate the power of the human mind. The fact that it isn't inherently special, and has evolved as an accidental by-product, doesn't strip of its ability to fathom the deepest truths. The human mind isn't "designed" to understand the deepest truths, but nonethless it has evolved this ability as an extension of its capacity to reason abstractly as part of its survival strategy.

The ability to reason abstractly evolved as a means to deal with the complex realities of survival; that this ability can also extend to solving the great philosophical issues is a bonus.

In approaching this avenue of honesty, you must truly ask yourself the questions I presented earlier to you, since you are a participant of this thread: what have I done to cause my birth? What have I done that gives me the power of conscious awareness? What have I done that is
the cause of my being able to respond to a thought, a concept, a theory, or even the activity of thought, whether intuitive, transcendental, or physiological? What is it that I have done to give myself life, and cause myself to deny, or accept there is a power greater than I, which I can't even begin to fathom?

We have done nothing in this regard, of course. Our coming into existence was simply due to accidental causes. But again, the fact that we had no say in our coming into our existence doesn't preclude us from using our minds in the here and now towards resolving the great philosophic issues and becoming enlightened.

You still seem to be under the delusion that the Universe needed to have purposely created us before our minds could be provided with the necessary skills to understand what is ultimately true. For some reason, you can't reconcile the accidental origins of our existence with our ability to pierce the core delusions in life and become conscious of the nature of Reality.

In other words, you're still under the sway of the Christian God, however subtlely. "No God, therefore no human ability to comprehend truth", seems to be your core motto.

"God is dead, but his shadow lives on", said an insightful Nietzsche.

And then answer these questions. If you are not in denial, you can only come to the conclusion that I am not the cause of anything concerning my life, not even the thoughts I think and have presented to others, because anything I have thought and presented are the thoughts passed down to me through DNA, and verbalism from the first thinker to succeeding generations, onto myself which has shaped my mind today. And therefore the reality of me is that I can have no effect upon my life unless I become an original thinker. You can't do that, because if you have not gone through the mind to get beyond the mind, you have no place to go but to the grave yard of the mind, and feed from dead thoughts, which makes you a walking dead man.

I've gone into these issues in great detail in an ebook - Wisdom of the Infinite. Give it a read, as I think you'll find it interesting.

Now should you be truly honest with yourself, and acknowledge I am not the cause of me, thus not the cause of my ability to do anything that will not end up in the grave yard of the mind, you will realize in earnest conclusion. . . . truth has nothing to do with you. That truth deals only with the "I" which is the cause/effect, effect/cause of everything that has been created, and that "I" is in Pure Consciousness, and Pure Consciousness is in the "I", because they are one and the same.

Given that this "I" underlies everything that exists, including that which I call "my life", truth has everything to do with "me".

With this post, as all post which has been analyzed, and accept as either yes, that is it, or no, I do not agree, also being projection, then no philosophy, religion, myth, or metaphor can take anyone beyond assimilation. Example: First there came Horus, and Isis, and the likes, which blended into the Jesus mythology. Then the shaman who, as Moses went to the mountain top. The shaman realized the reality of omnipresence reality. Moses realized the ass of God in his face. Both returned from the mountain top. One has to be breathed upon to regain consciousness of his flesh. One has to become discussed and breaks the laws to realize it is never about the man, it has always been about obedience to the mystery of the metapor man is living. No philosophy, religion, myth or metaphor will ever burst the bubble of cause/effect, nor dualist, nor the universal human mind which does not allow ascension beyond the isms and assimilations.

Except the philosophy that dissolves all boundaries and dualistic illusions.

Say what you want, believe what you may, but one thing is certain, one day you will find yourself looking down on you wonder why your beliefs did not save you from - Oh, oh oh, oh, wait, wait, they are shutting the lid. What are you going to do then with your philosophy, religion, beliefs, and isms? I know what I'm going to do, because I know my continuum of living is not predicated on death nor life of the mind. My life is the journey of the continuum of the infinite life of being the ever renewing, every unfolding expression of infinite life.

You're evidently relying on a belief in reincarnation or its equivalent. Are you really sure that such a belief will help you when you are on your deathbed and struck by the full realization that your consciousness is about to come to an end?

-

[mensa-maniac]

There is no logic for existence

I can no longer say there is logic for existence until I prove it. And that'll not likely ever happen!

Because I won't allow myself to get foolishly caught up in Brainwash techniques, educated hog-wash perceptions which is a detriment to the Thinker, in that these perceptions are poisonous to sensibility and logic!

Logical truths cannot be denied they prove themselves!

[mensa-maniac]

There is no logic for existence not yet!

Thinking too much confuses my ability to think logically. Confusion hurts my brain and contributes to my inability to think coherently.

Daily constant thoughts seeking one answer for the logic for existence, overwhelming my limited capacity for thought.

Emotionally victimized by thought itself, that thought needs proven to be of validity or of authenticity.

It will always be forever presented, impressed upon my subconsious mind logical truths for the logic for existence, which is to understand existence as part of the whole of consciousness--the ALL--AM, but this doesn't give the logic for AM.

Understanding will come in small doses, "precept upon precept, line upon line" the logic for existence.

If there is no logic for existence, humanity will end!

[Pincho Paxton]

Humanity can end very easily, in fact our entire Galaxy can get destroyed. There is no loss to the Universe.

[mensa-maniac]

Yes, destroyed by space matter in the blinking of an eye, humanity victim to inflicted death!

But, will humanity create itself again?

[mensa-maniac]

Destroyed in action, but will humanity create itself again just to exist? Presently, existing from a limited consciousness which will upgrade itself upon death, to a higher state of consciousness.

[mensa-maniac]

There is no logic for existence

I can no longer say there is logic for existence until I prove it. And that'll not likely ever happen!

Because I won't allow myself to get foolishly caught up in Brainwash techniques, educated hog-wash perceptions which is a detriment to the Thinker, in that these perceptions are poisonous to sensibility and logic!

Please accept my apologies for making an offensive comment, everyone's perceptions should be respected as ideas shared, that could trigger a logical response and conclusion.

Logical truths cannot be denied they prove themselves!

[mensa-maniac]

Jufa

I find you most logically stimulating and cannot disagree with 99.99.990000.01 of what you say.

Thank you for sharing yourself with your undeniable insight!

Mensa-maniac

"Try not to become a man of success, but rather one of value"

I believe you are female Jufa, but I don't expect you to reveal yourself, I conclude I could be wrong, but, only you know that.

[Pincho Paxton]

Yes, destroyed by space matter in the blinking of an eye, humanity victim to inflicted death!

But, will humanity create itself again?

The mission to succeed against entropy will continue, and it may already survive in another Galaxy anyway.

[jufa]

David Quinn states:

If you mean there is no intrinsic reason why humanity exists, as opposed to not existing, then I would agree with you: there is no logical reason for humanity's existence. Humanity only exists by virtue of being caused to exist, via the process of evolution.

Moreover, humanity's existence isn't inherently special in any way. Nature doesn't care whether humanity exists or not. That humanity does exist is merely an accidental by-product of causal processes, the same as anything else.

You just refuse to grasp the simplicity of "No", let there is NO logic for existence. Being you cannot give a logical reason for Anything to exist being you cannot give logic for the existence of the universe, you cannot give a logical reason why "Humanity only exist by virtue of being caused [ WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?] to exist.

Now you named humanity exist by virtue, but you did not name what that virtue was. What is it? And what Nature are you talking about? How did this nature come to be when there is no logic for existence? David, you can't have your cake and eat it to, you can't agree with me one moment, then say but, and give not logic for the existence of the But.

I don't rely on any texts or pieces of second-hand knowledge to find meaning in life. I rely strictly on my own mind and its ability to apprehend truth. Having said that, I do find becoming conscious of the nature of Reality to be meaningful, and I base my life around that.

What did you learn to read from, and count, and tie your shoes? Was it not books, and did you not receive hand-me-down knowledge to tie your shoes? Or did you rely strictly on your own mind and ability to apprehend the truth of learning, and the task of tying your shoe?

You underestimate the power of the human mind. The fact that it isn't inherently special, and has evolved as an accidental by-product, doesn't strip of its ability to fathom the deepest truths. The human mind isn't "designed" to understand the deepest truths, but nonethless it has evolved this ability as an extension of its capacity to reason abstractly as part of its survival strategy.

The ability to reason abstractly evolved as a means to deal with the complex realities of survival; that this ability can also extend to solving the great philosophical issues is a bonus.

Nay, I don't underestimate the power of the human mind, you overestimate it because you refuse to acknowledge it is the human mind which has cause all the problems of mankind, and it is the very mind which cause those problems to seek a mind solution. Mind is the manufactor of human problems, and it is the human mind which deceitful cause man to believe it is the problem solver. Mind battling mind. Mind is the great deceiver, the Father of lies.

We have done nothing in this regard, of course. Our coming into existence was simply due to accidental causes. But again, the fact that we had no say in our coming into our existence doesn't preclude us from using our minds in the here and now towards resolving the great philosophic issues and becoming enlightened.

You still seem to be under the delusion that the Universe needed to have purposely created us before our minds could be provided with the necessary skills to understand what is ultimately true. For some reason, you can't reconcile the accidental origins of our existence with our ability to pierce the core delusions in life and become conscious of the nature of Reality.

In other words, you're still under the sway of the Christian God, however subtlely. "No God, therefore no human ability to comprehend truth", seems to be your core motto.

"God is dead, but his shadow lives on", said an insightful Nietzsche.

Nothing of creation, creation itself, or the unknown and known universe randomly or unthinkingly came into existence subjectively out of the invisible into visible awareness. The jurney of existence, or purpose and the meaning of life, begins in the invisible, and theorin is traveled even when the human element of thoughtinterpretation causes mankind to believe otherwise.It is by might, or an unknown power, or the Spirit of God's will, random selection, genetic programming, DNA coding, or because men themselves made the choice to enter into the dimension of material flesh, men are taught by preachers, scientist, philosophers, medical doctors, Eastern and Western gurus and those who look upon themselves as specifically haven been chose by the Almight Creator of Life.

In some form or manner, the teaching and knowledge of these spiritual and non-spirital persons became, for most of mankind, their collective beliefs, personal interpretations and analytical way of thinking, The tenets of these teachings, words, knowledge, and analytical way of thinking, as man's personal interpretations concerning the meaning of life and man's human ways of providing his own source of supply, are also accepted as definitive truth because men believe and accept the event of birth as their beginning to life, living within the arch of that life, and life's end to be when they are touched by the hand of death. [The Illusion of God]

Never said anything about the universe creating us. Said there was no logic for existence, therefore no logic for the laws, nature, you and I, the human mind, and the universe to exist,

My being under the sway of the christian God is no worse than you being under the say of a double mad man's philosophy, who you have not even recognized to be mad, and who you mis-quote as to his saying ""God is dead, but his shadow lives on", Nietzsche did not say those words. Dare me to give evidence he didn't say those words. As all men of your persuasion, you must resort to Jim Jones chicanery to prey on those who will not take responsibility to find out for themselves.

I've gone into these issues in great detail in an ebook - Wisdom of the Infinite. Give it a read, as I think you'll find it interesting.

This conversation has nothing to do with what is in a book. Yesterdays scores has nothing to do in today's ballgame. Talk to me now, deal with the issue before you now, that is unless you can not.

Given that this "I" underlies everything that exists, including that which I call "my life", truth has everything to do with "me".

As Pontius Pilate as Jesus and received no answer, will you also give no answer when I ask you What Is Truth? Don't want to hear what you believe, or think truth is, want to know the same truth applies to my living as it does with your living unequivocally moment to moment to moment.

Except the philosophy that dissolves all boundaries and dualistic illusions.

So, pray tell, how does philosophy accomplish this?

You're evidently relying on a belief in reincarnation or its equivalent. Are you really sure that such a belief will help you when you are on your deathbed and struck by the full realization that your consciousness is about to come to an end?

If it was obviously what I rely on, you would not associate me with any belief of a God as you have. But for your benefit, life is my God, because it is Life which allows me the great pleasure of hearing you say it is your mind which is your God. and the cause for your survival, when you know beyond a shadow of doubt if you were not alive you wouldn't be aware of having a human mind, no less and opposing mind to life because causation when you cannot give causation for you to logical exist. This being your truth - not able to give logic for your eistence, you revert to dealing with effects, which are lies until a cause can be determined if your illogic is the reality for existence.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[David Quinn]

I'm sorry, but it's too difficult to have a conversation with you. Your words tumble and pour out as though you were constantly in a panic. You're also very hostile. A calmer, more open atmosphere is needed if communication is to take place.

Perhaps when you are a bit older and wiser, we can begin to talk. In the mean time, good luck to you.

-

[mensa-maniac]

"Humanity only exists by virtue of being caused to exist via process of evolution"

David,

Is the process of evolution proven? This statement speaks truth when written like this, "Humanity only exists by virtue of being caused"


Jufa,

Although you make sense to me, your approach is overwhelmingly undisciplined!