What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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Santiago Odo
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What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Santiago Odo »

An interesting article from Counter-Currents

Here are a few paragraphs I selected:
“Liberalism, like Platonism, Stoicism, and Christianity, is anti-tragic because it is based on faith in providence, the idea that the universe is ruled by and directed toward the good — appearances to the contrary notwithstanding. Providence denies the ultimate reality of loss, finitude, and evil, blinding us to the tragic dimension of life and replacing it with the stoner mantra that “it’s all good.” It is a delusion of ultimate metaphysical invulnerability to evil and loss.”
I appreciate Greg Johnson, and I pay attention to what he writes because he is one of the more important figures in the new American reactionary right, but I do have issues with his *metaphysics*. It is not quite accurate to say that he is anti-Christian since he is aware that the Christian faction within reactionary and ultra-right ideation is now and will be essential to any further development of this *movement*, but I do find that many theorists, on both the Right and the Left, do not really understand Christianity and thus cannot understand both its power and resiliance as well as its weakness and defectiveness. In my own case the study of Christianity and Catholicism has become a central interest and the more that I understand the more I realize *the game is not over* by any means. (That ‘by the way’).

But a couple of comments on his notion of Providence. It seems to me that in order to understand Providence, and then also Christianity in its essence, one has to understand that Providence only exists for an ‘enlightened soul’. The essence of Christianity is in the descent of an *avatar* into a dead world, if ‘dead’ is taken to mean simply materialistic and ‘determined’. ‘Life’ in the Christian sense is an idea, if you will, that rises up as-against the ‘life’ of both Nature and biology. The Life of the Christian is really a sort of hyper-life, a quintessence, and the influence from a reality completely outside and beyond the ‘life’ of the planet and, in this sense, of the kosmos. If one does not grasp that, I suggest, one cannot grasp Christianity (in its essence).

The real question — as it pertains to Christianity — is to penetrate to its essence and not to get stuck within tired conventions or routine ways of understanding it. This is hard indeed since, obviously, doing that would involve a commitment of oneself at a *spiritual* level. And to commit at that level — that is, in depth and not merely *intellectually* — is actually to become a Christian. And that is the way that one would come to understand Providence and even to feel providence and to understand it operating in one’s life, mind, feelings, and heart.

Naturally, I find all the questions about Christianity quite interesting because, taken on the whole, it is ‘the Christian revelation’ that has been rejected by those who founded this forum. In my own case every strand, every element, every idea that they rejected I came to recognize as essential of being understood and preserved.
“But if we cannot renew civilization without starting over from scratch, then I would gladly hit the reset button rather than allow the world to decline endlessly into detritus. Thus, on Nietzschean and Heideggerian grounds, it makes sense to try to renew the world, because if one fails, that failure might contribute to the civilizational reset that we need. Indeed, the more catastrophic the failure, the greater the chance of a fresh start. The only way we can’t win is if we don’t try.”
One of the things that I came to realize — again as a result of the time I spent on this Forum (I say this simply because it is true) — is how ‘desperation’ functions. I define desperation as coming face to face with an insurmountable wall in the face of which one’s will suffers an insurmountable blow. By nature, I assume, we have a sense or a feeling (understanding?) that at some essential level, despite appearances, we are not trapped and that there is a route that leads out of the ‘tragic’ condition of meaningless life. But again, to *know* that is to come into contact with a quintessential element: something that comes to one from outside of the tragic system, if you will. That is, of course, the meaning of the idea of the Avatar. It is a long-standing idea and is ‘foundational to consciousness’. But it seems to me that the Christian revelation — especially — has given (and can still give) a tremendous power to all Occidental forms and ideas that quite definitely distinguishes it from any other tradition. Here, of course, my own Eurocentrism comes to the fore: a decision, an act of the will, to locate and elevate that *quintessence* and to become willing to battle for it. That is the meaning of the Christian Warrior of course. And I mention this specifically in relation to this forum (and again because of the time I dedicated to it and the meaning this process had).

I really cannot say that I understand what Nietzsche’s *inner process* had been about even though I have read a good number of his works and been influenced by them. What I mean here is his rejection of Christianity at the metaphysical level (if indeed that is the case). I certainly understand his rejection of Christianity as an accretion of layers of ‘detritus’ and tarnish and the laying on of the ‘all too human’. But this is a symptom of the time, of his time and our time, to have ‘lost the thread of meaning’ and to have become unmoored from a metaphysical base that makes life livable and comprehensible.

It does seem true, and increasingly so, that events careen out of control and that we all seem destined to suffer to consequences of some sort of conflagration of world-scale. If that is so it is hard to imagine what trend-of-renovation might change the present. We certainly cannot ‘renew the world’ but we can renew ourselves within this world. But that is *spiritual work* and not particularly easy of attainment.

The crashing and ‘tragic’ failure of our Beloved Founders and their own revelation that they had, themselves, failed in their own path, is a very interesting outcome to analyze and to process. What does it mean for us?
“Beiner is at his best in his reading of Heidegger’s “Letter on Humanism,” his post-War statement publicly inaugurating “the late Heidegger.” Beiner correctly discerns that Heidegger’s lament against the “homelessness” of modern man and his loss of Heimat (homeland) is an expression of the same fundamentally reactionary, anti-modern, anti-cosmopolitan, and pro-nationalist sentiments that led him to embrace National Socialism. Indeed, there’s good reason to think that Heidegger never changed his fundamental political philosophy at all. The only thing that changed was his evaluation of National Socialism and his adoption of a more oblique and esoteric way of speaking about politics under the repressive conditions of the Occupation and the Federal Republic. Carrying out Heidegger’s project of offering a case for a non-nihilistic, non-totalitarian form of ethnonationalism is the project of the New Right as I define it.”
This seems important to me. You see it is as a result of ‘desperation’ in the sense I described above that we rush headlong into action — something! — that will give us a sense of alleviation. There is no way to avoid thes and we have, in different pathological ways, resorted to this manoeuvre. The conditions of the present force us to this. We either get wily and cunning and imagine that we have some Gnostic secret that no one else possesses (our dear Founders I think saw themselves in this way) or we fall victim (become ‘seduced’ as Diebert might say) by some attractive but pseudo-solution to our morass. But getting out of a civilizational morass is not in any sense easy! These are ‘metaphysical impasses’ and one has to live in them until a route is opened to one. That is where, I suggest, the notion of Provindence still has meaning: a consciousness greater than our own comes to the fore. This is a solid idea and not a mere convention insofar as a solution to the problem of the Creation must have arisen simultaneously to the Creation itself (if you catch my drift). That is, it seems to me, the hidden meaning of the notion of *metaphysics*.

The Nazi Era is magnificently meaningful, it seems to me, because we are still, quite essentially, in the midst of the reality of desperation. Not only might we take such Nazi-like steps but we live in a world that is dominated by forces and powers that have improved, dramatically, on the same desperate manoeuvres that set the National Socialists into motion. Americanism and the Americanopolis have to be deeply considered in this light. (And with this I make a reference to David and Dan’s defense of ‘liberalism’, which I prefer to label ‘hyper-liberalism’ or deviant liberalism. It is a disease but with what shall we oppose it?).
“The fact that the National Socialist regime went so terribly wrong did not refute Heidegger’s basic diagnosis of the problems of modern rootlessness and nihilism but rather proved how all-pervasive they were. Nor did anything the Nazis did refute the deep truth of ethnonationalism as the political corollary of spiritually awakening from the nightmare of liberal modernity. Thus Heidegger absolutely refused to say anything about the war or the Holocaust that could be interpreted as conceding that modern liberal democracy had somehow been proven true. Instead, he continued to make essentially the same arguments as he made before the war, but in more esoteric terms by focusing on rootlessness and technology.”
Yet the only ‘root’ for the ‘homeless’ and those suffering from nihilistic desperation can only be through recourse to certain ‘metaphysical truths’. That is, the same ‘truths’ that originated along with the manifest world as it was created. The puzzle is that getting toi, arriving at, embodying those ‘truths’ is not at all easy.

In order to take a stand against the ‘homelessness’ of our hyper-liberal present one has to be willing to really struggle to define many many different things. Unquestionably, the Radical and the Reactionary Right is very much on the right track if only in the sense that it gets to the *root* of the proper ideation. Spirituality and even religion are not in any sense liberal endeavors. They are radical and reactionary endeavors!
“Both Nietzsche and Heidegger think that spiritual health requires unreflective belief in and commitment to a closed, normatively binding cultural horizon. Christianity, post-Socratic philosophy, and the Enlightenment, however, made self-reflection and universal truth into transcendent values. But as Nietzsche argued, this was a self-defeating move, for Christianity could not stand up to rational criticism. Reason soon escaped the control of the church, which led to the downfall of Christianity (Nietzsche’s “death of God”), the erasure of the West’s horizon, and the rise of modern nihilism. It follows that the return to spiritual health requires the emergence of a new age of unreflective belief and commitment. Giambattista Vico called this an “Age of Gods,” the first age of a new historical cycle.”
This is a very interesting statement because it is in many senses true. I think the Radical Right and the Reactionary Right senses that there is a *proper course* to follow that must turn counter-currents to the Present hyper-liberalism, but working to define this ‘turn’ immediately isolates one from 98% of the ideation of the present! You exit the realm of discourse and start down a rabbit hole into dangerous and difficult territory.

I find that statement ‘Christianity could not stand up to rational criticism’ especially interesting. This is true! But the way to *recover meaning* is to recover the way os stating meaning. It is, I think, a lingustic and a semantic issue. It is true that all metaphysical systems, couched as they are in ancient imagination and the forms that imagination gave to meaning, have become defunct. It is true as well that all we have left is the world of mindless matter in which *meaning* is not seen to exist. But this does not mean that *meaning* is dead, or that ‘God is dead’, but that we have lost or surrendered or had taken away from us a way-and-means to grasp the *core meaning* which is, as I say, a quintessence: it is beyond reason and,in a certain sense, ‘reason’ becomea a stumbling block to the required metaphysical flight.

It is not the *truly smart* that have brought us to a nihilistic present (a state of mind really) but those who have lost their connection with imagination (in the Thomistic sense).
“The great question is: can a new “Age of Gods” emerge within the context of our present civilization, or must the modern world perish utterly, completely liquidating the Western tradition of philosophy, science, and liberalism, so that mankind can truly believe, belong, and obey again? The new horizons and myths that we need, moreover, cannot be “chosen,” for adopting a belief system as a matter of choice is not an alternative to nihilism, it is just an expression of it. Genuine belief is not chosen. It chooses you. It does not belong to you. You belong to it.”
In my view what is needed is the *truly smart* to come forward and turn back the tide by demonstrating what is possible. Nothing has ever ‘died’ and the Kosmos contains, now, all the meaning it ever held. The question is how to discover/rediscover it? I want to say that the *problem* is stupid people who have little imaginitive power. We know, beyond any doubt, that Our Present is one in which the vulgar and the half-mad have far too much power. But we must also accept (in my view) that our guiding intellectuals have lost the metaphysical track. This is inevitable in such a time of transition and disruption. And it is folly, in a sense, to imagine we have the Key to the cure, and yet the cure and the key must exist: they are part-and-parcel of the Creation itself.
“It was at this point that Heidegger began his great confrontation with Nietzsche in the mid-1930s. Heidegger later told Gadamer that “Nietzsche ruined me.” Nietzsche ruined Heidegger by offering him nihilism as a cure for nihilism. Nietzsche made Heidegger a Nazi. Heidegger overcame Nazism by overcoming Nietzsche.”
Ouch!
“In Heidegger’s later terminology, Nietzsche and National Socialism were both “humanistic,” premised on the idea that the human mind creates culture, whereas in fact culture creates the human mind. No genuine belief can be chosen. It has to seize us. This is one of the senses of Heidegger’s later concept of Ereignis, often translated “the event of appropriation”: the beginning of a new historical epoch seizes and enthralls us. This is the meaning of Heidegger’s later claim that “Only a god can save us now” — as opposed to a philosopher-dictator.”
This is a key point. But if something has to ‘grab’ us, it does seem quite important to arrive at a definition of what that shall be. It leads in a circle back to the essential question, and as it pertains to Occidental metaphysics, to the essential idea of a ‘quintessence’ that is part-and-parcel of the Creation.
“If Beiner is really arguing that Leftists should stop teaching Nietzsche and Heidegger, he apparently did not anticipate what would happen if his book fell into the hands of Rightist readers like me. For Dangerous Minds, despite its obnoxious rhetoric and smug dismissal of our movement, is a very helpful introduction to Nietzsche and Heidegger as anti-liberal thinkers. Thus I recommend it highly. And if I have anything to say about it, this book will help create a whole lot more dangerous minds, a whole new generation of Right-wing Nietzscheans and Heideggerians.”
A ‘dangerous mind’ is a desperate mind, according to my definitions. And a desperate mind is one susceptible to rash movement and especially impetuuous and, if I may say, immature movement. One must select a mature base for one’s choices and resist impetuosity. It is really in this precise sense that I have criticised the Founders of this forum. I do not blame them (though I would if they could only continue in that vein and not break through) and I only link them to the current of nihilism that has us all in its grip, in one way or another.
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Santiago Odo
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Santiago Odo »

Strange as it seems — it is really and truly strange! — in order to understand any of the various categories to which we refer in our present, and to understand them and make sense of them, we have to ‘back-track’ into careful definitions. We have to slow down and to carefully linger over language which is, as I say, a graveyard of meaning.

Here is a sample of an Elizabethan discourse which I will use to explain what I mean. This is a quote from Stephan Batman’s translation of De Proprietatibus Rerum, a text that was influential to Elizabethan thought and which thought is the *foundation* to much of our metaphysical concepts. That is, the terms we still use from time to time to explain some particular thing we *mean*. He is referring to the ‘5 wits’ or the ‘5 virtues’ and the relation between the ‘soul’ and the ‘body’:
The first whereof ... is feeling, and by that virtue the Soul is moved, and taketh heed to the bodily wits, and desireth those things, that belong to the body... The second power is wit: that is the virtue of the soul, whereby she knows things sensible and corporal, when they be present. The third is imagination whereby the Soul beholdeth the likeness of bodily things when they be absent. The fourth is Racio, Reason, that deemeth and judgeth between good and evil, truth and falseness. The fifth is Intellectus, understanding and inwit [sic]. The which comprehendeth things not material but intelligble, as God, Angel, and other such.
The message here, as I see it, is that our language is a kind of graveyard, and the bones and dust of the dead are the dead concepts, the dead ‘containers’ as it were, in which our *meaning* is held. Therefor when we speak of the ‘spiritual’ or of God and thus of Christ and the Logos as it was understood in Elizabethan or Medieval times, we are in truth speaking through a defunct language in which we no longer have faith. And yet the same being is still there, the same person as before, with ‘bodily wits’, the sense of knowing things corporeal, and also the imagination which is also connected to memory, and certainly to Racio to which, in certain ways, we are bound. But we have lost the ability to see and to understand the intellectus. It does not exist for us because we have no way to see nor to describe it. Because language has been undermined.

Therefor, if we are to speak in social or cultural terms of ‘renovation’ or ‘renewal’ or of the definition of ‘new gods’ and such, we are really speaking about a renewal of patterns of consciousness ruled by linguistics.

The way that I visualize this is to simply state that any given being (human) cannot really say anything at all about where he is nor of what he is. Or, the way he describes this is radically opposed and incommensurate with the Elizabethan or the Medieval modes (where the olden meanings were defined but also lived).

And we certainly have no means to even approach, at any level, a why. Why is a meaningless question in our present. No one even bothers with it. In this sense — without intellectus — we are significantly adrift in a *world* that, for us, can only be understood through nihilistic feelings. It is less the idea of nihilism than it is the feeling of nihilistic loss. That is the insurmountable wall that we face.

Until of course we can penetrate to the higher levels of meaning to which the Latin world intellectus refers. How?
_____________________________

In ‘Elizabethan Psychology and Shakespeare’s Plays’, Ruth Leila Anderson writes:
Superior to the vegetal and sensitive activities of the soul is a rational power capable of functioning without using bodily instruments and consequently immortal. Fletcher describes this faculty as a Prince whose countenance is sun-like, whose body, matter without matter, is never filled, although it may hold within its compass all heaven and earth. When the kingdom sleeps, he keeps watch; his virtue is present in every part of the body. As a Viceroy of the divine Judge, he dwells within a tower, the little world of man, constantly assaulted by a thousand enemies:

Hence while unsettled here he fighting reigns,
Shut in a Tower where thousand enemies
Assault the fort, with wary care and pains
He guards all entrance, and by diverse spies
Searches into his foes and friends designs:
The most he fears his subjects wavering minds.
This Tower then only falls, when treason undermines.

[from Burton’s ‘Anatomy of Melancholy].

If he does not yield to inferior powers, he is capable of inclining man to God and of obtaining for himself eternal joy.
It is not easy to get a grasp of the Medieval concept of the kosmos, and also of Medieval anthropology, and yet the world as we know it, and in which we live now in a Grand Outcome, is the direct product of these concepts and structures. The easiest example is to examine how just a few short years ago the ‘primitive man’ was viewed and understood. That is to say, African man and the man outside of Europe. To understand why and how *all that* came about, one must understand a previous anthropology, and thus an older conceptual structure which, today, is seen as outmoded. It has become unthinkable thought strangely enough.

But this Medieval mode of seeing the world, which has a good deal in common with Ayurveda and olden Vedic concepts, inflects our language in startling ways. Additionally, when one examines the language, as for example with the description by Burton, above, one clearly and readily sees that what is being talked about is an aspect of ourself which holds or encloses lofty intelligent perception.

The fact of the matter seems to be this: we cannot do without this intellectus, and yet we are locked out of it because, linguistically, we have defeated the concept: it simply does not exist for us in any tangibly concrete sense. If the idea still exists, it exists as a shadow, a hovering ghost.

And because this is so we have no longer any means to grasp what Χριστος (Christos) meant or now means. We also have no means to grap what λογος (logos) meant and means, except perhaps superficially and rationally. Therefor, I would say that we no longer have a way-and-means to understand what Christianity is and meant. It is true then that ‘God has died’ but it is more true that the language, and the concepts, that allows for the reality to be approached, that has died.

I would suggest that as it pertains to the man in his Tower, that man, that intelligent man’s position, has long been assaulted by his enemies. The spies have penetrated and treason undermined. Formerly, I would often speak about ‘the acids of modernity’ and ideas that act like *acids* which destroy meaning and also value. It was only (or largely) from within that Tower that man had an axial position from which to value and assign value — to valuate — but as the Tower has been breached by ‘treasonous elements’, the structure supporting such a man, and his ‘sun-like, immortal self’ has been wrested from him.
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Santiago Odo
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Santiago Odo »

What is the soul, and what does it mean to save the soul?
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Santiago Odo »

Let’s start with an excerpt from The Nature of Man by George Wither, tr., London, 1639, pp. 197-198:
For as the Sun, so soon as it appeareth, changes the air into light; so making it lightsome, and so diffusing it self with the air, that is united with the same, and yet not confounded therewith : Even so, the soul being united with the Body, remains without confusion therewith; differing in this only, that the Sun being a Body . . . is not himself in every place where his light is, but . . . is confined to a certain place.

It is not so with the soul. For, being void of all Body, and not contained within the limits of any place, it passeth all and whole through it own whole light, and through the whole Body, wherein it is ; neither is any part of it illuminated thereby, wherein it is not wholly and fully present. Neither is it in the body as in some bottle or other vessel, nor compassed in by the same ; but the Body is rather in the soul, and is thereby held in and fastened together’.
It was understood by Medieval thinkers and psychologists, naturally, that ‘the soul owes its origin in the body to divine infusion’.

Ruth Leila Anderson:
“Elizabethan treatises explain figuratively the manner in which the soul inhabits the body. It exists there as form in matter; it is joined to the body as a mover to the thing moved or as a shipman to his vessel. According to Sir John Davies the soul moves the body without touching any part of it. It dwells within, neither as if it were in a tent nor as a pilot in his ship, but after the fashion of morning light in the atmosphere. It is wholly in all parts of the body.”
Again, it appears that we live and exist within a lingustic ‘graveyard of meaning’ and what is peculiar is that for all of European history, and even for the pre-Christian pagans, the soul of man had been a primary category of concern. Indeed today, for all Christians, the ultimate concern is for the state of the soul in relation to Salvation. I assert that in order to understand the notion of Salvation and all the metaphysics connected with it — and these are vast — we have to see that we have lost a notion of and a definition of ‘the soul’.

But there again it may be proposed that the meaning of and the importance of the metaphysical necessity of ‘saving the soul’ is not different than it was at any former time, and within any former conception, but that it is within us that the definitional possibility, if I can put it like this, has been altered.

If what I propose is so, then the man who exists within a bodily frame and within this network of matter and energy that is ‘earth’ and ‘life’, is in an obvious sense cut off through a lingustic short-circuit from the capacity to understand 1) his condition and his location, 2) the meaning of that condition and location, and 3) from a holistic praxis in relation to Life in the fullest possible sense of the word.

I do fully recognize that our entire definitional structure is up for grabs and up in the air but this is part of my interest and puzzlement: for Occidental man an entire edifice of culture and civilization had been built upon specific foundations that have been undermined. Yet it is not *the facts* themselves — that is, the metaphysics — that have necessarily changed but rather his relationship through language to those *facts*.

There are many — I think obvious — implications in what I present here. It is not that the condition of man has changed, and it is not that ‘the soul’ as it was conceived and understood has changed in fact and in reality, but rather that man has lost the ability to predicate and to localize his own existence within this plane of manifestation.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Santiago Odo wrote: Thu May 03, 2018 12:43 am What is the soul, and what does it mean to save the soul?
It always looked to me like future related: what happens after and as such redemption for judgement, how the future will judge you, as "right hand of god" might mean the side of acquittal (as in Judaic courts). But more broadly: how history judges you, how those after you will look back on you, if they will at all. This ties in with "saving the name" which used to be a big thing to have: a good name, passed down to the whole family for generations to benefit of. It could be lost and redeemed, as well.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Hello! always good to see you return to the desert of the real, the near deserted gravy yard of meaning and all the flocculation, flagellation, or as you might maintain flaccidization to some -- and it all could be said to be this forum nowadays.

How have you been? So much changed and shifted, nothing remains exactly the same. Yes, even meanings shift, expand and compress like in cosmological theories. Which doesn't mean there is no ultimate order, just that it's not what most call meaning.

This thread should be in the main forum but considering the possible sensitivities I'll wait for a request to move it. And I'm not expecting old fashioned participation here, at least from me. These are topics you're fleshing out for yourself and I'm not planning to delve into most of it beyond reading - so don't worry! However occasionally there could be a remark or two, in an attempt to make it relevant to me but it's up to you or anyone else to comment on or ignore if it doesn't fit the proposed topic.
The Life of the Christian is really a sort of hyper-life, a quintessence, and the influence from a reality completely outside and beyond the ‘life’ of the planet and, in this sense, of the kosmos.
That's nice, big picture thinking. In that sense this forum could be called Quinntessentially Christian as well, in Kierkegaardian sense especially. The surprising thing to me is there's no kneejerk "rejection" of Christianity, either being it or teaching it on this forum but more like a deeper appropriation, a sort of "reform", including the going beyond mere "intellect" and have some higher principle operating in life, mind, feelings and heart alike. That's how it always looked to me, what I brought along.

The notion of Provindence you described sounded quite Master Eckhardish to me! Although greater consciousnesses, minds and being are still at heart alien encounters of the fourth kind. Or at least it's hard to describe any significant difference between the various instances of encountering radical otherness, being it inside or outside.
The Nazi Era is magnificently meaningful, it seems to me, because we are still, quite essentially, in the midst of the reality of desperation.
Yes when the cultural self or identity is under pressure and suddenly collapses, tragedies happen. Slow tragedy can be beautiful, from a distance but fast tragedies are simply horrible to behold. Like a car crash and its victims. This is where the short Nazi era raced towards with a typical modern speed ("blitz"). It's phrased best recently by the mighty Odo himself: a desperate mind is one susceptible to rash movement and especially impetuous and, if I may say, immature movement". Although I might add the desperation of mind could also be a consequence of too many rash, impetuous and immature mobility -- anxiety!
we have lost or surrendered or had taken away from us a way-and-means to grasp the *core meaning* which is, as I say, a quintessence: it is beyond reason and,in a certain sense, ‘reason’ becomea a stumbling block to the required metaphysical flight.
We lost the vital illusion, wrote Baudrillard, your favorite Christian philosopher. Oh no wait.. never mind.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Santiago Odo »

What is interesting about the term ‘vital illusion’ — which could be rewritten as ‘living hallucination’ — is that it cannot but be true and accurate. I do not consider it a very complex idea and nothing to crow about, but the basic idea I work with is that we ‘interface’, so to speak, with Reality (the manifested world which we do not understand and can hardly *see*) through imagination in the Thomistic sense. I mean both imagination and also soul, and by ‘soul’ I do mean the divine condensation. The divine insertion as it were.

Thomism is a form of Aristotelianism or Platonism of course and to refer to ‘Thomism’ is to refer, generally, to a Medieval view of reality. I constantly refer to the ‘two worlds’ of our Present insofar as we live in and perceive out of an Olden World in many ways, an old worldpicture, but we are *assaulted*, as it were, by the encompassing and also the drowning power of a new scientistic worldpicture. Language holds the traces and the *shadows* of a world-passing-away. I assert that we have to seize the meanings there and give them new life.

It is important to note — this is my opinion of course — that the scientistic worldpicture could be described in numerous senses as *diabolic* in the classical sense of the term. That is to say that it is attractive, powerful, *seducing* but also reducing. It captures the mind and spirit, it assaults and vacates improtant *meaning* which only came into our world through angelical intellectus, and it will eventually reduce man to a being held by and ‘farmed’ by machines. Intelligent machines, no doubt, but machines none-the-less. Therefor, but desiring to avoid paranoid phantasy which is non-useful to this project, I think we need a full definition of the diabolic just as we need a renewed definition of the Divine and the Angelical.

As you well know, the notion of divinity or of the angelical has now become or is becoming a term more proper to mental illness. That is to say that the ‘worldpicture’ is understood to be a form of madness, a misperception, a literal error of perception and one that is worthy of being assaulted and attacked: brought down. Oddly, it seems to be some of the more crude and primitive forms of Christian worldpicture (that is to say those various congregations and churches) which attempt to stand up in the face of the onslaught brought against them. I could refer, for example, to the Branch Davidians which I have spent some time recently investigating. They are bizarre and their concepts are simplistic and crude, and yet they have been the ones that have identified, of you will, the cosmological struggle (which I describe as the concrete diabolical in opposition to the angelically possible).

In the midst of this *diabolical war* against a worldpicture in which a ‘genuine’ Divinity with a genuine and meaningful praxis of life and a Law of Life is understood, valued, upheld and taught, my suggestion is that Man is assaulted and defeated by essentially mindless and diabolical forces. It is important to mention that man is not brought into a higher of better Life by modernity, or mechanistic modernity, or the diabolical machine-world that is evolving, and thus the world he is brought into is not similar to the ‘Christian hyper-life’ I referred to earlier. I say this in complete sincerity. I am not speaking in metaphors. I sense this is one of the prime meanings of our age, and I bring this up, very consciously, in relation to the attempts by those who created this Forum to organize a reactionary counter-movement to the mindless (female, ‘flowy’) world they resisted. The made a counter-proposition but, as all know, I regard this as inadequate. It has to be continued. It has to be further developed. And my undestanding is that this must involve an absolute regress (turning back) to the absolute traditional right. But what is that? It is a metaphysical question because the very Kosmos must be plumbed and the cosmological answer deduced by ‘intellectus’. In this sense, then, the ‘angelical world’ is the possibility of higher ideation of any meaningful sort.

Obviously, this all involves the idea of ‘worldpicture’. The world that I exist in, and the ‘lens’ as it were through which I am *viewing* the World is my conscious self. I think it was Cardinal Newman (a convert to Catholicism from Anglicanism) who said that there comes a point where a man realizes he is alone in a Universe of two beings: himself and God. And ‘worldpicture’ is then really the state and condition of consciousness but moreover one’s consciousness mediated by one’s soul.

There is no way — that I can see — for any person to be able to say ‘I see and I understand the World as it is’. All that we can do is bring forward, as it were, our imagined world, our ‘worldpicture’. Therefor, and for this reason, I often am inclined to say that ‘we do not know where we are’. We cannot locate ourselves. But if this is made to seem a tragic condition it is so when a man, or because a man, has become separated from and abstracted from, a holistic and complete worldpicture comparable, for example, to the Catholic and Neo-Platonic world.

I would say then that we very definitely need a ‘picture’ and because we do not have such a ‘picture’ — which is to say that *acids* have gone to work on the holistic picture of Life and Being that had been the cradle and the living vessel (a term to oppose to ‘vital illusion’!) which has given birth to everything that surrounds us, that is to Culture and also to Civilization, the world of ideas and intellect, certainly to ethics and much else — we live within a ‘hyper-fallen-condition’ that needs to be accurately seen and described.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Santiago Odo »

Thanks for asking. By and large things are going well : in this ever-falling world careening toward some destruction or some conflagration.

There are websites and blog-like information lists that one can subscribe to — some quite costly, for investors and such — which offer an *interpretation* of the present world for those in business and with ‘ownership interest’. What I find interesting about them is that they offer a business-oriented hermeneutics : an interpretive model for those who need it.

I find that the more that ‘the world’ is examined, the less possible (not the more possible) it becomes to understand it. But there is at least 2 levels in that word ‘understand’. Since I am very interested in Medieval metaphysics, to the point of becoming boring no doubt, I am interested in the Elizabethan sense of the word ‘understanding’ : such understanding was a result of having access to a divine property, a quintessence as it were.

It is sort of *fun* to attempt a hermeneutics and to take on the authorial voice and make pronouncements of a grand sort.

Now, it is true that *according to form* this present thread — which pretentiously deals on High Topics — should go in the Upper Level. Except that we all exist in and suffer away in our various Fallen Conditions in a Sublunar Sphere in which we are trapped.

That is the world of Wordly Matters. As you well know ‘matter’ comes from the word mater, mother, and the Latin materia which refers to wood and timber, the woody part being that from which growth occurs. These effervescences, therefor, are entirely suited to the Sublunar Sphere!
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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An Interesting aside dealing on the Idea of Vision :

King Lear is a play with many dimensions and they are not easy to grasp, likely because they arise out of ‘upper dimensions’ of intelligence and understanding in the senses alluded to above. What that means, disturbingly for some I suppose, is essentially ‘Grace’ if grace is understood to mean illumination coming to one through an intelligent force *outside of oneself*. With that, naturally, the idea of *vision* and of *seeing* are brought to the foreground and into focus, as it were.

When one *sees*, how does one see? When one sees and understands, what exactly goes on there? what is understood? In reverse, when one does not see or cannot see, how has this come about? Through ‘ignorance’ or through ‘self-will’? Ignorance being a condition of Nature, and knowledge coming through experience and revelation. What is their relationship?

Truth-seekers desire to ‘know the truth’ but yet, especially today, this is more-or-less a meaningless quest since *truth* is not only a contentious term but — I suggest this — one is locked out of seeing and understanding because one participates in the self-will of self-obfuscation.

Non-seeing — blindness — I must say I associate with the diabolic. And if I am to take these notions seriously, at their metaphysical level, I must understand the battles of this world as being related to a conflict between the poles of divinity and the diabolic (yet this requires careful explication ; careful reexamination and restatement. The olde language has to be revised. The old way of seeing brought up to date).

Because I am proposing that there is an element of self-will in not-seeing and not-understanding, I include an old and I think little-known popular song which illustrates the *mood*, if you will, of the tragedy of lack of vision (and suggest that King Lear’s central theme is just that) :

I built my prison stone by stone.

In the Medieval sense, that is within that perceptual system and the worldpicture offered by Medieval and Thomistic understanding of reality, man is a sort of medium and man exists in a Middle Realm between, if you will, dead matter — hyperreal and hyper-present — and invisible angelic intelligence — ethereal and accessible only through ‘intellectus’. I associate lack of vision with will and choice.

Therefor, if through choice, will and language one asserts only the existence (and relevance) of congealed matter, one simultaneously dis-visions a worldpicture and a world-of-possibles that can conceive of such *higher intelligences*.

I do not doubt that Shakespeare definitely understood the metaphysical dimension of his play nor that the play is, in its way, a sort of theological theatre. But I am also of the opinion that to understand Shakespeare and all the Elizabethan theorists and theologians, one has to make a deliberate effort to understand the worldpicture that informed them. This is not only a ‘rational’ work. It involves an intellectual subscription.

Doing this, that is delving into that study, I came to realize that we now exist in a sort of perceptual penumbra — a partial shadow between regions of pure shadow — but more properly a zone of impeded brightness between two luminescent sources. In order to understand this *condition*, as it were (and it is a condition in the sense of an affliction) it requires a Master Metaphysician : someone schooled in the two opposed poles of vision. The two very radically different poles of perception of the World and the Kosmos.

Blinded by Cornwall and Regan through absolute malice, Gloucester wanders through the countryside.

Old Man: Alack, sir, you cannot see your way.

Gloucester: I have no way, and therefore want no eyes. I stumbled when I saw.

Then Gloucester says :

“Full oft ’tis seen, our means secure us and our mere defects prove our commodities. O dear son Edgar, the food of thy abusèd father’s wrath, might I but live to see thee in my touch, I’d say I had eyes again!”

Paraphrase: So often we only come to see and understand things late. We become comfortable and accustomed to our deformities of perception, our lack of understanding, and indeed become ‘invested’ in them. If I were able through tangible sense to understand in true profundity, though outwardly blinded, I might say that I had inner eyes again to see.

Blake puts it nicely, and yet to grasp his meaning one has to have a sense of the worldpicture he spoke from :

This Lifes dim Windows of the Soul / Distorts the Heavens from Pole to Pole / And leads you to Believe a Lie / When you see with not thro the Eye / That was born in a night to perish in a night / When the Soul slept in the beams of Light.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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Interlude

Definition: A short farcical entertainment performed between the acts of a medieval mystery or morality play.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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The sin of a false-King and the ‘condition of the heart’

The position of the King within the Kingdom had special connotations for the Elizabethans. The King was heaven’s representative within the earthly realm and in this sense was seen as having been *appointed’ by Providence. A corrupted king would have had definite connotations for an Elizabethan, and more so a fratricidal king and one who gained his throne by devious coup.

Hamlet is just one more of Shakespeare’s plays which are almost unreally labyrinthian and metaphysical. The more that one studies the play, and the underlying metaphysical structure, the more one is drawn into and implicated in the *meaning* one sees in it. It is essentially an expression of the religious viewpoint, and certainly the Greco-Christian one. I suggest that to understand Christianity one could well turn to Shakespeare.

It is in its inter-dimensionality that it has its life and, strangely but disconcertingly, the farther that a reader gets from an understanding of and a relationship to the metaphysics that support it (again : to the ‘vital illusion’ in which all its meanings occur), the less the reader will be able to grasp what it all connotes. For what it *conotes* is invisible and *intellectual* in the Medieval and Thomistic sense.

Herein lies ‘the problem’ of our modernity in a nutshell, as I understand it. Though the problem is vast and has endless connotations and ramifications, even to appreciate them is to have access to that knowledge, to be doctrinated in it, to see things that way, and to share, to one degree or another, such worldpicture. To convey understanding is, therefor, to preach to the choir if there is a choir existing. I am unsure how preaching to an unconverted member of the social body should be described, except that I have employed a Kafkan metaphor as a bludgeon of sorts:

An Old Manuscript

For those who have read Hamlet the following will be familiar. What I find interesting it it, and certainly what generations have found interesting, is that it is a meditation on sin and a man’s relationship to his own sin. One participates with the false-King in his meditation on his own condition in which he is trapped. The ‘limèd soul that, struggling to be free’ is the soul ‘limèd’ in its condition: and lime refers to a sticky lime substance spread on a branch to trap birds.

Does ‘sin’ as an idea have much reach in our present? I think one must say that it does not, except within those enclaves and backwaters where such religious superstitions are still recognized. True, everyone would recognize the ‘sin’ of a brother killing a brother and then in assuming his role as king and leader, gaining his wife and the powers of the State. But on another level such things are seen as conventional, typical, common. These events are absent of metaphysical connotation.

But certainly people have lost sight of the ‘sin of complicity’ in the crimes that support the lives we live. In my struggles with the problem of power I came to understand that all relationship to power and to the gains of power is essentially an issue of ‘complicity’. We are all complicit in Systems of Power and thus morally linked to the result of ‘sin’ in these realms. Yet we are all part of ‘natural’ systems in any case, and from a Mediaval metaphysical perspective, it is this enmeshment in the machinations of the sublunar sphere where we, through the Fall, have come to be, that is the source of our problems. Therefor we have a metaphor to grap our conditon in the ‘limèd soul that, struggling to be free’.

To understand the Mediaval understanding of that *world* (the sublunar sphere) is not particularly hard, yet it is strange. Both deeply familiar and strange to the ear and eye. Therefor, in discussing Elizabethan and Mediaval metaphysics — which is the metaphysics of Christianity insofar as Christianity and Catholicism had been institutions of thought and philosophy for well over 1000 years — it requires a certain preamble and some revelation about how *the world* was visualized and how our being here was understood. I will make this effort through the inclusion of some excerpts about how the human heart was visualized and understood.

But first, the famous speech by the usurpious false-king Claudius, and later some commentary :

Oh, my offence is rank. It smells to heaven.
It hath the primal eldest curse upon ’t,
A brother’s murder. Pray can I not.
Though inclination be as sharp as will,
My stronger guilt defeats my strong intent,
And, like a man to double business bound,
I stand in pause where I shall first begin,
And both neglect. What if this cursèd hand
Were thicker than itself with brother’s blood?
Is there not rain enough in the sweet heavens
To wash it white as snow? Whereto serves mercy
But to confront the visage of offence?
And what’s in prayer but this twofold force,
To be forestallèd ere we come to fall
Or pardoned being down? Then I’ll look up.
My fault is past. But oh, what form of prayer
Can serve my turn, “Forgive me my foul murder”?
That cannot be, since I am still possessed
Of those effects for which I did the murder:
My crown, mine own ambition, and my queen.
May one be pardoned and retain th' offense?
In the corrupted currents of this world
Offense’s gilded hand may shove by justice,
And oft ’tis seen the wicked prize itself
Buys out the law. But ’tis not so above.
There is no shuffling. There the action lies
In his true nature, and we ourselves compelled,
Even to the teeth and forehead of our faults,
To give in evidence. What then? What rests?
Try what repentance can. What can it not?
Yet what can it when one can not repent?
O wretched state! O bosom black as death!
O limèd soul that, struggling to be free,
Art more engaged! Help, angels. Make assay.
Bow, stubborn knees, and, heart with strings of steel,
Be soft as sinews of the newborn babe.
All may be well. (kneels).

Oh, my offence is rank
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Santiago Odo wrote: Thu May 03, 2018 11:47 pmWhat is interesting about the term ‘vital illusion’ — which could be rewritten as ‘living hallucination’ — is that it cannot but be true and accurate. I do not consider it a very complex idea and nothing to crow about,
the drowning power of a new scientistic worldpicture. Language holds the traces and the *shadows* of a world-passing-away. I assert that we have to seize the meanings there and give them new life.
I find that the more that ‘the world’ is examined, the less possible (not the more possible) it becomes to understand it.
This is perhaps the story of "techne", the explicit, quantified, forever exposition which is only made possible through a certain type of thought. It doesn't seem that new but perhaps it's more than ever divorced. And it's not even technology where you can see its greatest expression or application. The arts, the philosophical discourse and politics all precede it. Elsewhere I have maintained thoughts are "frozen", crystallized feelings. Dried up that way they become in their own right highly geometric ordering: the most "holy" of tools but as well the greatest deceptions, simply because there's still feeling and sensory memory underlying it all. This ties in with the concept of the simulacrum: it ends up simulating only the pretended presence of something or in this case lack (eg cold, unfeeling) to hide its true nature: all bundled packets of emotion ready to unravel.

Ah well, it takes too far perhaps to demonstrate how the crude Medieval metaphysics were predecessors to all of this. How this all had to lead to the incubation of science and modernity. For me, most of the past would be the last place one can look for redemption. Unless it's the details of origination and to generate further exposition. Which will not bring any new energy in my experience, beyond the thrill of discovery and "baring" but drains in its own way the metaphysical bath tub a bit further.
I would say then that we very definitely need a ‘picture’ and because we do not have such a ‘picture’ — which is to say that *acids* have gone to work on the holistic picture of Life and Being that had been the cradle and the living vessel (a term to oppose to ‘vital illusion’!) which has given birth to everything that surrounds us, that is to Culture and also to Civilization, the world of ideas and intellect, certainly to ethics and much else — we live within a ‘hyper-fallen-condition’ that needs to be accurately seen and described.
Well, not sure if the quest for more accuracy and description here is such a holy one, considering what you wrote earlier about drowning powers of scienticism and certain examinations . But let me say something about the picture: I see the definition of human nature as the very ability to explore its own nature and define as well redefine it. This might be the very distinction between human and animal. And not just language but also culture has been the means so far: constant moving through times redefining his role, his cultural identity, his destiny, and so on. This means it's our nature to question, to break with and to engage with something else. In that sense I wholly applaud what you are doing. It's the human condition and his nature. And that's spoken without any attempt to judge or derive some meaning, some teleology from it -- or denying the possibility for one! It's a description after all, spoken from the now, the context of this conversation and its readers. A brief possibility in time.
As you well know ‘matter’ comes from the word mater, mother, and the Latin materia which refers to wood and timber, the woody part being that from which growth occurs. [
It comes from "pregnant animal" or "breeding female" -- as in womb, also directly related to the term & movie "Matrix", a modern cultural meme-machine which you describe well:
it will eventually reduce man to a being held by and ‘farmed’ by machines. Intelligent machines, no doubt, but machines none-the-less.
In my imagination it connects all to the book of Revelation chapter 12 about a "sun clothed" pregnant female crying out with birth pangs before a giant red dragon ready to eat the baby as soon as it was born. But then again, baby eating is supposed to be done in the philosophy section only... for those who like their embryos bloody.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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“Diebert” wrote:The arts, the philosophical discourse and politics all precede it. Elsewhere I have maintained thoughts are "frozen", crystallized feelings. Dried up that way they become in their own right highly geometric ordering: the most "holy" of tools but as well the greatest deceptions, simply because there's still feeling and sensory memory underlying it all. This ties in with the concept of the simulacrum: it ends up simulating only the pretended presence of something or in this case lack (eg cold, unfeeling) to hide its true nature: all bundled packets of emotion ready to unravel.

Ah well, it takes too far perhaps to demonstrate how the crude Medieval metaphysics were predecessors to all of this. How this all had to lead to the incubation of science and modernity.
I would argue that Medieval metaphysics, if expounded in their fulness, are anything but ‘crude’ in terms of the meanings they refer to. (They are crude in some and perhaps many other respects however, just not in the most crucial).

I further suggest (as I think is clear from the transparency of intentionality in this thread) that the essence of Christianity, if understood in its full sense, is in no way a crude representation. It is intensely vital. What that means is that standing behind it there is a Real Presence.

But I would argue that it is not the vital sense that has left or vacated, but rather that man through distortions in his own person and being falls away from a capacity to see and understand. And much more than mutable senses or feelings we must speak of hyper-meaningul encapsulations of cosmological metaphysical truths that are eternal.

It either is or is not.

It is not a question of the seeming or the perhaps. It is the mutables who seek the Immutable, the intellect that conceives of meaning that stands outside of time ; the eternally true. I admit that it is hard and fraught to represent this Immutable within the sublunar sphere, but that intellectually it must be grasped that such constants exist.

They either do or they don’t. There is really not a middle realm, though man certainly exists in such a middle realm.

The *rediscovery* I refer to is not so much to *the past* as it is to the Eternal. It is therefor a mistake to lodge oneself in the past as an intellectual antiquarian, but it is just as much of a mistake, and in many ways a more deadly one, to fail to see and grasp the eternal meanings encapsulated there. I would say that it is our *duty* therefor to uncover and recover these *meanings* and as I say *bring them back to life*.

I do not mean to communicate through any sort of postmodern irony, though it is fun I admit to play with irony, and my assertion that I propose is in direct contradiction and opposition to the nihilism and acidic destructiveness of those who founded the Forum. It is very important (to me in any case) to mention this and to keep it in the foreground. Only because the work that I attempt is, in many senses, an ‘answer’ to the propositions of modernity and modern view.

I would argue that the *meanings* that are enclosed within these symbol-systems — ‘Christianity’ seems to be a symbol primarily, and then the discourse follows which *explains* the symbolism and out of this an entire *praxis* develops — is not only important and considerable and valuable, but rather entirely vital. It is not ‘vital illusion’ and this term, though I do understand how it came to be enunciated and perhaps why, is an erroneous term.

And you also know that I consider it possible, even if improbable of occuring, that *European* renovation (Europe is used semi-symbolically) vitally depends on recovering value and meaning of the sort alluded to. But it can happen within one sole individual.

In my view, I find that the metaphysics one must refer to when one considers the Medieval worldpicture can, if approached intelligently, offer many solutions to certain problems. For example, the problem I notice in the contradiction of ‘holy tools’ and ‘great deceptions’. If there is — if there really is — a holy tool . . . it confronts, as it were, deception. That is, it is implied that deception can be recognized (which is the purpose of a holy tool).

However, if one does not really believe in the holy, one uses the word ironically. Therefor, a holy tool is more of an ironical reference than it is a reference to something genuinely useful. If one does not have, and if one cannot have, access to a true ‘holy tool’ then one is left sheerly and really rather completely in deception. Can you see a way around this?

[The power of questions! :-)]
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Santiago Odo wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 3:36 amI would argue that Medieval metaphysics, if expounded in their fulness, are anything but ‘crude’ in terms of the meanings they refer to. (They are crude in some and perhaps many other respects however, just not in the most crucial).
Well, yes, you'd say that of course. And perhaps I should have used another word like unrefined or less processed ("industrialized"). But it's something we probably would disagree on in the end. Although I recognize it does refer to some infinitely complex and majestic reality, like everything else, there's simply too much of a causal link between the developments of metaphysics in the Middle Ages and toward the modern age of technology. And I'd refer here to a heavier, more material interpretation of Aristotelian doctrines on matter and form, definition of existence, causality and so on. This only became more refined to the point it facilitated the birth of the great undoing of itself, as faith, as the immaterial, unrealized -- enabling the age of the mass industrial.
I further suggest (as I think is clear from the transparency of intentionality in this thread) that the essence of Christianity, if understood in its full sense, is in no way a crude representation. It is intensely vital. What that means is that standing behind it there is a Real Presence.
It's not really up for discussion, the way you phrased it. But why selecting Christianity? What if I made a point that the Hermetic or wisdom tradition, or Buddhism would, when understood in its "fullest sense" (obviously implying some exclusive access) would be vital and representing some enormous reality, some actual truth, a living , breathing cosmos and so on. It's not saying anything different or would sound unreasonable.
But I would argue that it is not the vital sense that has left or vacated, but rather that man through distortions in his own person and being falls away from a capacity to see and understand.
My current perspective, quite all-compassing I must say, is the realization that Man always was that fall, that escape, that struggle to find the light from the fertile gutter we came forth of. And I see it as the "nature of man" in the deepest sense. And honestly I could not tell you what comes next, although I do have my visions and dreams. And neither is it really possible to say what came before simply because I do not think that experience and understanding is truly accessible simply by hindsight. Something gets lost with each translation and age passing.
And you also know that I consider it possible, even if improbable of occurring, that *European* renovation (Europe is used semi-symbolically) vitally depends on recovering value and meaning of the sort alluded to. But it can happen within one sole individual.
Today I watched a while the the Scottish independence march after having visited the area personally recently, trying to understand the land and its people and its history.

In the end this is a lot to do about bagpipes, flags and drums, some excitement, something "tangible" (which is emotional) in the face of all virtualization and "cloud governments" in London and Brussels, causing disembodied being lacking a story and immediate, meaningful connects. But I see the reverting back not as a strength or having future. It's knee-jerk.

And I'm just inserting this as it was something I happen to be "in to" these days. It's also a fallback position I do understand, somewhat envy but also lack the ability to see any future or viability in. Poking the old coals for a few sparks and a bit of heat.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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A definition of ‘intellect’ is necessary to understand the Martin Ling reference, below:

(Latin intelligere — inter and legere — to choose between, to discern; Greek nous; German Vernunft, Verstand; French intellect; Italian intelletto).
  • ”The faculty of thought. As understood in Catholic philosophical literature it signifies the higher, spiritual, cognitive power of the soul. It is in this view awakened to action by sense, but transcends the latter in range. Amongst its functions are attention, conception, judgment, reasoning, reflection, and self-consciousness. All these modes of activity exhibit a distinctly suprasensuous element, and reveal a cognitive faculty of a higher order than is required for mere sense-cognitions. In harmony, therefore, with Catholic usage, we reserve the terms intellect, intelligence, and intellectual to this higher power and its operations, although many modern psychologists are wont, with much resulting confusion, to extend the application of these terms so as to include sensuous forms of the cognitive process. By thus restricting the use of these terms, the inaccuracy of such phrases as "animal intelligence" is avoided. Before such language may be legitimately employed, it should be shown that the lower animals are endowed with genuinely rational faculties, fundamentally one in kind with those of man. Catholic philosophers, however they differ on minor points, as a general body have held that intellect is a spiritual faculty depending extrinsically, but not intrinsically, on the bodily organism. The importance of a right theory of intellect is twofold: on account of its bearing on epistemology, or the doctrine of knowledge; and because of its connexion with the question of the spirituality of the soul.”
Martin Lings in Shakespeare in the Light of Sacred Art (1966):
  • “The reason Mediaeval art can bear comparison with Oriental art as no other Western art can is undoubtedly that the mediaeval outlook, like that of Oriental civilizations, was intellectual. It considered this world above all as a shadow or symbol of the next, man as the shadow or symbol of God ; and such an attitude, to be operative, presupposes the presence of intellectuals, for earthly things can only be referred back to their spiritual archetypes through the faculty of intellectual perception, the insight which pierces through the symbol to the universal reality that lies beyond. In the theocratic civilizations, if an artist himself was not an intellectual, he none the less obeyed the canons of art which had been established on an intellectual basis.”
“Diebert” wrote:My current perspective, quite all-compassing I must say, is the realization that Man always was that fall, that escape, that struggle to find the light from the fertile gutter we came forth of. And I see it as the "nature of man" in the deepest sense. And honestly I could not tell you what comes next, although I do have my visions and dreams. And neither is it really possible to say what came before simply because I do not think that experience and understanding is truly accessible simply by hindsight. Something gets lost with each translation and age passing.
The ‘intellectual perspective’ of the Mediaeval worldpicture and praxis is I think even more ‘encompassing’ and I also think that it could be said to contain your sense, at least if I am reading this paragraph right. What I take this to mean is that it is ‘intellectus’ that offers a non-physical, a theoretical one could say, picture of things or realities (or truths) that cannot be represented except through symbols.

Could this be where our perspectives diverge? Obviously, my mind functions platonistically, and a non-platonist sees a platonic intellectual tendency as hallucination incarnate. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

It is only as an exercise that I will continue to try to develop some of the descriptions of Mediaeval worldpicture. In case it is not clear I am largely trying to make plain to myself what I understand in a shadowy form. But like anyone I find it hard and demanding to hold to an intellectual vision of things. And then there is much that opposes it.
It's not really up for discussion, the way you phrased it. But why selecting Christianity? What if I made a point that the Hermetic or wisdom tradition, or Buddhism would, when understood in its "fullest sense" (obviously implying some exclusive access) would be vital and representing some enormous reality, some actual truth, a living , breathing cosmos and so on. It's not saying anything different or would sound unreasonable.
You mean the phrasing is so absolutist that there is no way to oppose it? Or that there is some truth represented through the word-cloud that you recognize?

It is a good question, a necessary question. That is : Why Christianity? You could probably divine my answers . . .

One, it is ‘our tradition’ and it brought Europe into existence. It interweaves with everything European. It will never be removed. In that sense ‘And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it’. Two, it is (in my view) uniquely powerful and thus uniquely relevant. Three, would be essentially further descriptions and further ‘proofs’ of the centrality of Greco-Christianity to us.

And since I speak as a Eurocentric and my *project* is there, I feel I have enough to work with. However, and as a side-note, Hermeticism is part-and-parcel of Greco-Christianity. See CH Dodd The Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel. It is hard to get through because of so much Greek but it demonstrates how deeply the Hermetic tradition interpenetrates Christianity. A further side note is that Buddhist and Vedic metaphysics are closely related to these European/Thomist Mediaeval metaphysics. They could very easily inform each other in the sense of help to explain each other. I hope to show some of this because I am not sure how clear it is.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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Diebert wrote:Well, yes, you'd say that of course. And perhaps I should have used another word like unrefined or less processed ("industrialized"). But it's something we probably would disagree on in the end. Although I recognize it does refer to some infinitely complex and majestic reality, like everything else, there's simply too much of a causal link between the developments of metaphysics in the Middle Ages and toward the modern age of technology. And I'd refer here to a heavier, more material interpretation of Aristotelian doctrines on matter and form, definition of existence, causality and so on. This only became more refined to the point it facilitated the birth of the great undoing of itself, as faith, as the immaterial, unrealized -- enabling the age of the mass industrial.
Again, and without wishing to contend, I tend to the view that within this tradition, if it is understood in its fulness (I mean this differently than you seem to take it), certain universal and eternal truths are alluded to and expounded. That is, the symbols of them are presented to the mind. In this sense, if we are to speak of 'presentation' through a symbolic representation, we are speaking of kerygma. And my contention is that what is there within that kerygma is what I would refer to as quintessence that *comes down* as it were to us. This is key. If one is going to speak within Christian categories, one has to include the notion of a specific *event* within time and history and, as Dodd speaks of, the inauguration of a new era in consciousness. This is my view in case there is any doubt. And though I certainly exist within a middle ground and my belief and understanding is *shadowy*, I must assert the integrity of the Idea here. There is a point where the shadowy idea merges with Real Presence and that is of course where *faith* begins. And also initiation.

Speaking of the inauguration of new consciousness, I find it alarmingly interesting that Shakespeare's Hamlet (and some other of his plays) describe and demonstrate a movement within consciousness that is essentially Christian. I know that this assertion would be contested by many but such argument I would dismiss. Hamlet alone supercedes any other document, novel, poem, tract, even scripture of any culture and time that we could name. Hamlet is as relevant today and now as it was at any time and perhaps it could be said that its relevance is increasing.

When I talk about 'civilizational renovation' I am not speaking of Scottish Nationalism! I am attempting to write within the context of an Absolutist Philosophy and specifically in relation to an absolutist forum set up by men with absolutist minds. They are absolutely wrong in a range of their assertions and their reactions and I intend to correct every one of them. They are functioning within a microcosm-of-self and yet their choices, their reactionary choices, their nihilistic mistakes, their dis-viations, reflect the time in which they -- and we -- live. If we are going to propose Absolutes, and if we recognize that they logically must exist (do exist) we are duty bound to define them.

'To define' -- in my lexicon -- means to embody, to incarnate. Thus, linguistically and practically, we circle around to the Logos as the source of revelation. It either is or it is not. There is no middle ground. It works on us and in us. And what does this is eternal and constant and exists along with the created world. It cannot be otherwise.
“We were always arguing but we never quarrelled.” So said G.K. Chesterton of his relationship with his brother. Like Chesterton, I like arguing but I always try to avoid quarrelling. The former is a healthy disagreement based upon a mutual desire to understand things better; the latter is an unhealthy disagreement in which the absence of charity leads to the clouding of one’s judgment, thereby thwarting one’s ability to understand things better. An argument leads closer to the truth; a quarrel leads further from it. Charity leads to clarity; the absence of charity leads to the absence of clarity.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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It is a hard topic, and it is a tremendously large topic, but I suggest that it is the topic that is in essence *up for debate* and under consideration when we meditate on the present ; the strange things going on ; the sense of something impending ; and in relation to that any ideas that touch on renovation and also *healing* when one thinks about European Culture in its present state of decadence and degeneracy.

My experience has been, in respect to conversation forums such as this one (and especially this one for obvious reasons), that the base of the conversation, the essential question, has to do with 1) interpretation of the present and the nature of things, 2) recommendations about *what people need* to live sanely and healthily, and 3) the issue of ones own personal relationship to this question / these questions, and how one chooses to answer them.

To confront this issue is, essentially, to confront the World, and that again involves one in an interpretive project for, obviously, one cannot make sense of the World nor really say much about what to do if one did not have a hermeneutical structure in place.

One interesting *fact*, as it were, is that no one is in a position to offer a conclusive or encompassing hermeneutic about this thing called ‘the World’, but this is especially exacerbated in a present in which knowledge and knowing are not really desired categories. This has to be explained I think. There is certainly no end to *opinion* but a great deal of this is *emoted opinion* in my (developing) view. That means that I assert that there really must be — there is — a base of knowledge in which truth and understanding reside and can be found, but that *very few* are aware of what *it* is nor of what it requires.

That is to say that intellectually people are substantially in the dark. But that statement has to be qualified. They are not in intellect (in the sense I have been using the word) and they are gripped by very many things but such intellect. But when I use the term intellect I do not mean rationality. To be in intellect is more encompassing. Put another way I am of the opinion that rationality alone — and as a function of the totality of self — is inadequate by itself to solve *the problem of life*.

And this of course posits an entire metaphysics . . .

I was listening to the famous ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech by Enoch Powell and one of the key phrases he employed in it was ‘Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first drive mad’. Curiously, all that he brought out and brought to the attention of English society is now coming to pass. Therefor, it is in choices and attitudes that must be described as *madness* that the past structured itself and, as a result, created the decadent and discordant present.

But whom do the *gods* attack, and why? In a sense to use the term ‘gods’ one is really saying ‘demons’ since it is implied that were man to have avoided certain choices these ‘gods’ would not have plagued him. The implication, for theologians and other sententious beings, is the ‘abandonment of God’ or the Supreme Being, and this of course circles back around to some notion of the intellectual, the intelligible and the intelligent (all in the Latin-Thomist sense of the word).

What happened? When? How?

The point in thinking about such a speech would be, of course, as part of a project of trying to think about what is going wrong and why it is going wrong in our culture and our various cultural pockets we call our societies. It is, I say essentially, the topic of the day insofar as no matter where one turns it is the topic being discussed. The question, of course, implies that one conceivs of a road to welldom, a cure, a renovation, a return, a restructuring. I admit to being attracted to the idea fo this possibility, but generally pessimistic that much can happen here given how severely ‘time is out of joint’ (to quote Hamlet).

If as Richard Weaver says ‘all speech is sermonic’, and that sermonic speech can have only to do with teaching, in one way or another, the right way to live (and think and see and be), one must take into consideration that Weaver proposed that at a certain point in historical time, a certain and a specific wrong turn was taken, and indeed he locates this in *nominalism*.

From an essay titled: Richard M. Weaver on the Nature of Rhetoric: An Interpretation, by R. L. Johannesen, R. Strickland, and R. T. Eubanks :
These two fundamental orientations, political conservatism and Platonic idealism, led Weaver in Ideas Have Consequences and Visions of Order to indict contemporary Western culture for having lost faith in an order of ‘goods’. Among the societal weaknesses and vices he condemned were the following : scientism, nominalism, semantic positivism, doctrinaire democracy, uncritical homage to the theory of evolution, radical egalitarianism, pragmatism, cultural relativism, materialism, emphasis on techniques at the expense of goals, idolization of youth, progressive education, disparagement of historical consciousness, deleterious effects of the mass media, and degenerate literature, music, and art.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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In The Dialectic of Sex: The Case for Feminist Revolution (1970), Shulamith Firestone wrote :
So that just as to assure elimination of economic classes requires the revolt of the underclass (the proletariat) and, in a temporary dictatorship, their seizure of the means of production, so to assure the elimination of sexual classes requires the revolt of the underclass (women) and the seizure of control of reproduction : the restoration to women of ownership of their own bodies, as well as feminine control of human fertility, including both the new technology and all the social institutions of childbearing and childrearing. And just as the end goal of socialist revolution was not only the elimination of the economic class privilege but of the economic class distinction itself, so the end goal of feminist revolution must be, unlike that of the first feminist movement, not just the elimination of male privilege but of the sex distinction itself. Genital differences between human beings would no longer matter culturally. (A reversion to an unobstructed pan-sexuality -- Freud's "polymorphism" -- would probably supersede hetero-, homo-, bi-sexuality.) The reproduction of the species by one sex for the benefit of both would be replaced by (at least the option of) artificial reproduction : children would be born to both sexes equally, or independently of either, however one chooses to look at it ; the dependence of the child on the mother (and vice versa) would give way to a greatly shortened dependence on a small group of others in general, and any remaining inferiority to adults in physical strength would be compensated for culturally. The division of labor would be ended by the elimination of labor altogether (cybemation). The tyranny of the biological family would be broken.

And with it the psychology of power.
An interesting and revealing short ‘retrospective’ video of the era.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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I have The Dialectic of Sex: The Case for Feminist Revolution and find it — though I am totally opposed to a Marxian praxis within the relationship between men and women — to be an interesting analysis in the sense that it reveals something dynamic about the time itself and new methods of analysis about life, culture and also *meaning*.

I do not think there is any way to gain an accurate stance within the project of *hermeneutical grasp of our present* if one does not understand, in whichever way and according to whichever interpretation one will apply to it, *women’s struggle for liberation*.

While one might be tempted to try to ridicule or to dismiss the different forms of feminist rebellion, when one thinks it through so many aspects of this movement seem entirely necessary, and yet one recoils from the ramifications when this radicalism is taken to its logical conclusions. It is interesting that all the various forms of ‘conservatism’ that I am aware of exclude feminist radicalism, and yet many exponents of conservatist political and religious traditionalism seem to owe a great deal to the gains achieved by radical feminism.

However, there is another and an odd and difficult angle from which to view theorists and activists like Firestone (née Shulamith Bath Shmuel Ben Ari Feurerstein ; Feuer = fire, Stein = stone) and that is through the lens of Jewish activism. It is important to grasp that relatively recently there has been an upsurge of Jewish-critical analysis. From the most raw, crude and openly ‘antisemitic’ position (I place this in quotes because I am not opposed to a Jewish-critical position and think that instead of being repressed it should be ‘brought out into the open’ and discussed) to the positions of people like E Michael Jones and Kevin McDonald who write extensively on the topic of Jews in European history and as activists and actors in our present.

I include here an interesting quotes about E Michale Jones’ ‘The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit’. Sometimes it is the opinions expressed about a work that reveal more than the work itself. (I have not read but I have litened to his talks).

The reason for the inclusion of this material is because, in the context of analyzing the present, and understanding certain currents of reaction now operative, this sort of analysis is common and is spreading far and wide. I have no doubt that this resurgence of the 'old question' (the JQ as it is called) is alarming certainly to Jews and also to governing structures.

The base of E Michael Jones' position is traditionally Catholic and quite simplistic. It is that at the time of the appearance of Jesus the Jews were offered a choice : recognize and honor the Messiah or reject him. Obviously, according to the traditional Catholic view they rejected him. And this, according to Jones, meant that their existential and practical alternative was to become revolutionary agents, insofar as their rejection of the Messiah was countered, as it were, by embracing Barabbas, the Judean insurrectionist who was *traded* for Jesus.
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Excerpts from reviews of 'The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit and Its Impact on World History' by E. Michael Jones, Ph.D.

A rather long cut-and-paste ...
  • “… to the mortification of decent Jews like myself, Jews are often on the vanguard when it comes to trashing Christian mores and human dignity, and creating dysfunction whether its undermining gender and marriage or peddling promiscuity, pornography or abortion. [...] Organized Jewry has sought to portray man as inhabiting a mechanistic universe devoid of inherent design and meaning. In this view, God is an impotent fool who neglects His creation, and Christianity is fogbound superstition. [...] Organized Jewry has used our idealism to deceive us with Socialism, Communism and Zionism. But to warn Jews of this deceit now constitutes ‘anti-Semitism.’ Surely, Jewish leaders who start wars are the real anti-Semites. They create anti-Semitism to keep ordinary Jews in line. [...] Jones is the foremost scholar of our time and predicament. This is because he studies the masterful Masonic-Jewish takeover of Western civilization now almost complete[...] For a complete history of the New World Order from its inception over 2000 years ago, I recommend The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit. (Henry Makow, Ph.D., rense.com).
  • “The Kielce Pogrom, for example, has been wrongly used to show evidence of Polish actions to exterminate Jews. Jones’s magisterial volume is a marvelous antidote to such ‘conventional wisdom’ in relation to Jewish history in general. May it change hearts and minds.” (Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski, author of Jews in Poland: A Documentary History; Poland: An Illustrated History and Poland: A Historical Atlas).
  • “What is the thesis that has gotten Jones in all this hot water? He says that throughout the past two thousand years, whenever there has been a major movement opposed to the Catholic Church, the Jews have tended to side with those movements, whether religious, social or political. […] Now the question: why should this thesis be considered anti-Semitic? The answer: I have no idea. Are Jones’ critics claiming that the Jews have always agreed with the Catholic Church? […] Jones makes a case that the Church has had to defend itself on more than one occasion from revolutionary movements in which the Jews played a part, small or large, and the Jews consequently faced the resentment of Christians afterwards. […] But the really hot stuff is his discussion of the neo-conservatives. Eyebrows will go up. However, here and throughout the book, his research and analysis is comprehensive and calm. The veins never bulge from Jones’ neck; if there is Jew hatred here, it is immensely cunning. I would hope that Jones’ critics would give him a fair reading rather than continuing to arrange to have his public appearances cancelled. They’re not helping their own case – whatever that case is. It’s really hopeless when anyone who tries to discuss the Jews is instantly accused of being anti-Semitic if his conclusions point out any Jewish misbehavior.” (Bradley Rothstein, Gilbert Magazine).
  • “Jones is a Roman Catholic, and one of the focuses of his book, perhaps the main one, is the gradual erosion, over a number of centuries, of the Church’s power and authority in Europe, a process in which Jews, as the author shows, played very key and very active roles every step of the way (along with the help of willing Christians), and the eventual displacement of that authority by the rising tide of Jewish power. This is an extremely important area of study because for many, many centuries it was the Catholic Church that kept Jewish power in check. Today the Church no longer plays that role, leaving a void that Islam, fortunately, has stepped in to fill, and while Islam has not been able, at least thus far, to thoroughly check Jewish power as successfully as Christianity once did […] The story of Vatican II is a complex one, but Jones tells it skilfully and in detail. […[ The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit is a remarkable look back at the past, but it is even more than that. By understanding history, we understand the world we live in today, and Jones provides an invaluable service in helping us to understand the 'revolutionary spirit' of Jewish power — how it operates, how it evolved, and how it maintains itself.” (Richard Edmondson, deLiberation).
  • “Dr. E. Michael Jones daringly deals with a most taboo topic that should send shivers up the spines of respectable members of today’s Catholic Church, as he expresses views that prevailed in the past. Even when one cannot concur with his major interpretations, he provides ideas that require some thought to refute (in that they always contain elements of truth) and should not be written off in the name of ecumenical PC ... Jones writes in a felicitous manner, and draws attention to rarely mentioned religious and historical facts.” (Stephen J. Sniegoski, Ph.D., author of The Transparent Cabal: The Neoconservative Agenda, War in the Middle East, and the National Interest of Israel.
  • “Anyone who wants to understand the background for the financial tsunami that has devastated the lives of billions of people should get himself a copy of the book by E. Michael Jones, The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit and its Impact on World History.  He will then understand that what is taking place before our eyes is not an historically isolated incident, but rather part of a chain of events that began with the exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt and which, especially in the modern period, has caused untold misery. … The main concern of the revolutionary Jew is the Christian religion. E. Michael Jones, the strictly observant Catholic philosopher, defines the revolutionary Jew as the son of Israel who refused to recognize Jesus as the Messiah.”  (Friedrich Romig, Der 13te (translation from the German).
  • “The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit by E. Michael Jones is a monumental book which scoops two thousand years of troublesome relations between Christendom and the Jews, and endeavors to connect Jewish strategies of permanent revolution with the permanent Jewish rebellion against Christ (=Logos). This timely book may help to regain the lost balance between Judaic and Christian tendencies in the Western mind.” (Israel Shamir, author of Flowers of Galilee and Cabbala of Power.
  • “If you are thirsting for truth, tired of political correctness, and unafraid to delve into what the rest of society sees as a forbidden area of knowledge ... then E. Michael Jones’s book will simply not allow you to stop turning its pages ... This book will give you the key to understanding our turbulent, godless and agenda-driven modern civilization as no book before it has done, or shall we say, had the courage to do.” (Robert A. Sungenis, Ph.D., author of Not by Faith Alone: A Biblical Study of the Catholic Doctrine of Justification.
  • “Must Read Book … E. Michael Jones has the reputation of knowing the facts in world affairs and geo-politics, as well as the forces behind them. He is also well-regarded by many for having the bravery in stating the truth -- no matter how unpalatable for some -- and calling a spade a spade.” (‘Final Confilict’).
  • “Jones shows how the cultural war that has been going on for a little more than forty years between Catholics and Jews has been characterized by a long string of victories for the Jewish side. He points out that the Jews with whom the liberal Catholic prelates and intellectuals engage in ‘dialogue’ are not creatures of the Torah, which is the Word of God, but of the Talmud, which is the Rabbinical system put in place in later times to, among other things, coerce Jews from converting to Christianity.” (Professor David O’Connell, author of Francois Mauriac Revisited and Louis Ferdinand Celine.
  • “I have been reading your book non-stop from various sections, sampling the banquet like a loathsome old glutton, and I have to tell you I believe you will make history with this work. I can’t think of another book by a Catholic writer of whom that could be said. This magnificent achievement, and this possibly alone, will be seen I believe now and after we are gone as the first serious ‘shot’ (and what a shot!) in the counterrevolution, which our children and grandchildren will, alas, inherit. […] You have written in exactly the right tone - one of enviable calm, reasoned scholarship; and your copious, careful documentation, it seems to me, unearths what amounts to the most devastating indictment of the revolutionaries who are subverting not only the Church and Catholic nations but all good, decent moral order; all the while you take pains many times to exculpate the many good ordinary Jews who suffered because of their imputed identification with such a disproportionate number of their people involved in the violent works of subversion, especially, but not only, in Russia where tens of millions of Christians and others died. … Had this massive work been available some years ago I might have spared making such an ass of myself on the subject. Congratulations. […] This work is akin to Gibson’s Passion of the Christ - which reminded the whole world of the Passion (!) when all seemed forgotten in the darkness of the Nihil - and which is still circulating the earth on DVD even into forbidden places.” (Stephen Hand, A Letter to E. Michael Jones).
  • “One of the most important books one can read on the topic is the massive work The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit and Its Impact on World History, by E. Michael Jones. Mr. Jones provides documentation for his major historical theses, often from recognized Jewish historians. … the basic point is clearly demonstrated: ‘Judaism’ under the rabbinic schools and the Talmud since 70 A.D. is significantly different from the revealed religion of the patriarchs and Moses, and the community of Jews who disbelieve Jesus of Nazareth will always produce a certain number of individuals whose ideas and actions objectively undermine, in characteristic ways, the influence of Christian faith in society. If a reader keeps this in mind, and Jones says as much in his own way, then his understanding of the Gospel and of history will be enriched without having to a priori suspect all Jews of nefarious designs against the Church.” (Rorate Caeli)
  • “...an analysis sadly lacking in most modern discussions of modern American culture,” (Edmund Connelly, Occidental Observer.
  • “Thank you for giving us this incredible work of scholarship and unparalleled historical revisionism that has transformed the way I look at the world we live in. ... JRS is characterised by calm discussion of the issues and its concise definition of terms, in particular the “Jew” as one who rejects Jesus Christ as the Messiah and your balance in placing this definition within the context of the seemingly endless debate about who the Jews are. In so doing, you simultaneously demolish the myth that the Jews of the Old Testament and the Jews of today are one and the same people, something which I never previously appreciated. [...] The concise definitions of the two most misunderstood terms in contemporary cultural discourse – namely “the Jews” and “anti-Semitism” – are what makes JRS the counterrevolutionary tour de force that it is. [...] I think that your chapters on the Second Vatican Council are well worth the price of the book all by themselves. You decisively prove that Vatican II was a battle over whose view of Jewish identity would become normative in the modern era in Church and world – that of the Catholic Church which had traditionally taught that to be a Jew was to be a rejecter of Christ or that of modernity which hails race as the new religion and correspondingly and exclusively identifies Jewishness in terms of blood, race and DNA, the very outlook denounced by Jesus himself in St John’s Gospel. [...] JRS is the most important book that I have ever read on any subject in my life.” (Stephen M. Smith, Culture Wars).
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Santiago Odo »

“David Quinn in another thread” wrote:Granted, society hasn’t done much in the way of promoting wisdom so far, but we are still a young species and the progressive journey is still in its infancy.
What I find sustainingly interesting about the thread from which these quotes came and the opinions and perspectives expressed there is in being reminded of the degree that the GF Project took aim at lofty goals through its high aspirations. I find it interesting that ‘wisdom’ is taken as an a priori : as if it is known and understood, an agreed-upon quotient, a settled agreement. I think there is more to be gained from taking a stance to the side — or perhaps aside and above — such declarations.
“DQ” wrote:There are signs that it is occurring nonetheless. Thanks to the influence of science, for example, the human race has indeed inched a little closer to wisdom over the past three hundred years. In general, people have become more educated and broad-minded; many of the traditional superstitions and myths have been debunked; understanding of the basic principles of logic has become more widespread; the belief in metaphysical delusions, such as a personal God, has diminished; and so on. Okay, we are still a long way from becoming a society of fully-enlightened Buddhas, but it’s still progress nonetheless.
Oddly, the various *sages* and *wisemen* of yore did not — not one of them! — come out of anything at all like a scientific tradition nor as a result of anything comparable to the scientific revolution (a Western category). All these men came out of religious, mystic and even magical traditions, and they defined, according to their lights, a relationship not to the *real world* that science describes, but rather to a metaphysical world conceived in and held in the imagination, perceived through profound metaphysics on intellectual levels. The idea that *science* is an expression, say, of Taoism or has a relationship to the metaphysics that brought forth Buddha, is rather sheer ignorance and projection. I do not mean this to sound as biting criticism. It is important to correct this simplified, distorted understanding and to see (this is my opinion) that it is strictly *opinion* and not well-conceived opinion.

The thing about ‘myths’ is that they are ways to express what I can only describe as *metaphysical truths* about the nature of reality that are very difficult to express in what I assume would be a ‘preferred rationalism’, which would be scientific positivism! The truths that are expressed for example through the various Platonic myths (the Gorgias Myth ; the Myth of Er ; the Protagoras Myth, the Atlantas Myth, the Myth of the First-Born, etc.), and indeed what can be seen and described as the Christian mythological description, is the degree to which they express and also hold the very best of that which we now hold (if we still have some link with intellectus) in our own traditions. What this seems to mean, to me anyway, is that the mythological structure, the metaphysical structure if you will, enables wisdom in the form of *wise men* — just like those that were named (LaoTsu, Buddha, and then — (so oddly!) — Kierkegaard and others) to manifest themselves among us.

Scientism destroys their possibility!

That these men are grouped together in a sort of timeless Wisdom Committee and referred to as such is a mistake in apprehension.

It is an odd assertion, from my perspective, that humankind is inching closer to wisdom over the last 300 years if only because, among many intellectuals and theorists, this is not understood to be so at all. Again, LaoTsu and any other Eastern mystic, metaphyscician or wiseman, would not and could not have been produced by the scientific revolution and its rejection of Scholasticism. In a significant sense — this according to coherant writers with a solid base in the *world of ideas* — this scientific revolution has dis-enabled intellect and the intellectual stance (and I use the term in its sense of intellectus).

A quotation from an historian of scientific thought, EA Burtt:
“EA Burtt” wrote:It was of the greatest consequence for succeeding thought that now the great Newton’s authority was squarely behind that view of the cosmos which saw in man a puny, irrelevant spectator (so far as being wholly imprisoned in a dark room can be called such) of the vast matehmatical system whose regular motions according to mechanical principles constituted the world of nature ... The world that people had thought themselves living in — a world of rich color and sound ... speaking everywhere of purposive harmony and creative ideals — was crowded now into minute corners in the brains of scattered organic beings. The really important world outside was a world, hard, cold, colourless, silent and dead — a world of quantity, a world of mathematically computable motions in mechanical regularity. The world of qualities as immediately perceived by man became just a curious and quite minor effect of that infinite machine, beyond. In Newton, the Cartesian metaphysics, ambiguously interpreted and stripped of its distinctive claim for serious philosophical consideration, finally overthrew Aristotelianism, and became the predominant world-view of modern times.
What Mr Quinn is speaking about, therefor, seems more akin to a form of rationally costumed solipsism that itself is a symptom of a disease which has arisen ‘over the last 300 years’. The ideas that are expressed here are lopsided, tendentious, mistaken and if I may say so without being (deliberately) snarky, ignorant in the true sense of the word. If what I suggest is so, it indicates that the intellectual platform on which these notions are constructed will require revision. That is of course my position. But with that stated it is very important to also include another statement ; the articulator of these ignorant ideas is not to be blamed because it is this level of *opinion* which is part of emoted reasoning and is a sign of our times, a manifestation of a certain *pathology* if I may speak dramatically. It appears to be *rationalistic* and pretends to soundness, yet it is neither rational nor really intellectual. This is very very important and must be clearly seen. It is hard to accept and take in but these are *girlish opinions* of an unprepeared intellect. They conduce to liberal feminisms, if I can put it like this, not to hard and clear and moulding masculine ideas. Such masculine ideas, if one accepts the use of the term, are never ‘liberal’ and definitely not hyper-liberal. What is required to opose these distortions (those of our present) is a form of militancy in defense of intellectual solidities, not solipsistic adolescent moods!
“DQ” wrote:As I say, it's been steady progress since the Middle Ages. The period that you mention - 1920-1970 - did see a significant increase in interest in Eastern philosophy by Western intellectuals - e.g. Aldous Huxley, Hermann Hesse, Alan Watts, etc. While such men fell well short of being genuine sages, they did help fan the cultural revolution in the 60s and 70s, which in itself continued the broadening and deepening of the Western mentality that has been going on since the Middle Ages.
This is a curious statement. It is filled with a great deal of assertion which can only be taken at face value (as *opinion*) but I would suggest that if examined carefully this idea that the East will rescue the West and even that the East has special things to offer the West is not necessarily so! It is, I suggest, an assertion based in self-deception. First, one deceives oneself and for a host of reasons ; then one proceeds to *sell* one’s mistaken understanding to others and (importantly) to represent it in salvific terms, as panacea. The entire idea can be challenged.

The base of such a revision (of this distorted idea) is complex, this I admit, and requires ‘back-tracking’ through an examination of causation. I find this ironic because of the emphasis placed on the idea of ‘causation’ bu the founders of the forum. This ‘back-tracking’ is historical and ideational analysis of *the history of ideas* and will involve, in my opinion, definite assertions about *mistaken paths* which have led into a kind of modern mire. Note that this thread pretends, at the very least, to point in the direction of a required back-tracking analysis. To achieve the breadth of understanding to write some sort of document about *what has gone wrong* and what can help to cure it, is daunting indeed!

The Sixties and the Seventies do not represent rebirth or renovation! They do not represent an opening of roads. They do not show a way forward. They more properly indicate how certain choices, attitudes and ideas leads directly into a mire ; or more severely into a mire. This is not to say that the idealisms of this era did not have something substantial behind it, but perhaps only to indicate that the structure and content that supported that idealsm has been slowly etched away through decadent processes. It is very very hard though to Rx this enormous change. It is so large, and so much larger than any one person, that it is difficult to *see* what has happened.

It literally requires a ‘master metaphysician’.
“DQ” wrote:Fast forward to now and we can see that this long and steady progression has hit a major hurdle. The progression has scared people to such an extent that three major societal reactions have emerged over the past few decades, all of them driven by a deep hatred of truth - namely, (a) the conservative backlash (which is now reaching its peak in the Trump/Republican movement), (b) the rise of postmodernism, feminism, political correctness, etc (which reaches its peak in the extreme left), and (c) the slide into banality (which runs through the whole of society).
A set of half-baked ideas about ‘ways forward’ have certainly hit a wall, that much seems accessibly certain. But I would say that very few have any really clear idea about what the ‘way forward’ is.

Remember : I have no way, and therefore want no eyes. I stumbled when I saw.

The use of the term ‘conservative’ really has to be qualified. American Conservatism has nearly zero relationship to the ‘conservation’ of anything. And Americanism in many senses is anti-conservatism in the proper sense of the word. There really is no American conservatism since, to define it, one would have to take a critical stance in respect to the American Civil War and the rise of a ‘propositional nation’ in conjunction with numerous emboldened radicalisms.

To achieve ‘conservatism’ in the present would certainly involve a dismantling of the American nation as neo-imperialism and along with that the progressive Americanopolis. The American present is a fantastic distortion, a machine of distortion that rolls forward inexorably.

To see accuratley what postmodernism is, as well as feminism, ‘political correctness’, and the machine-like manifestation that is *our present*, is a fraught and demanding endeavor. And everything depends on the worldpicture of the one undertaking the hermeneutical work!

Therefor, a tremendous amount of work needs to be done before the project can begin. The purpose of writing out these ideas / assertions / suggestions is to make an appeal to higher reason and to intellect to continue in the work of defining what *renovation* is and should be.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Santiago Odo »

Extract from Professor W. Bateson in his Presidential Address to the British Association, August 1914:
Man is just beginning to know himself for what he is — a rather long-lived animal with great powers of enjoyment if he does not deliberately forego them. Hitherto superstition and mythical ideas of sin have predominately controlled these powers. Mysticism will not die out : for these strange fancies knowledge is no cure : but their forms change, and mysticism, as a force for the suppression of joy, is happily losing its hold on the modern world. As in the decay of earlier religions, Ushabti dolls were substituted for human victims, so telepathy, necromancy, and other harmless toys take the place of eschatology and the inculcation of a ferocious moral code. Among the civilized races of Europe, we are witnessing an emancipation from traditional control in thought, in art, and in conduct, which is likely to have profound and wonderful influences. Returning to freer, or, if you wll, simpler conceptions of life and death, the coming generations are determined to get more out of this world than their forefathers did’.
I suggest that this elucidates, without really fixing on the issue and the *problem*, a severe and very telling shift in worldpicture, and in a foundational — perceptual — metaphysics. I further suggest that Mr Quinn seems to speak from a position that lacks an understanding of this shift and also lacks an understanding of the ultimate ramifications — a latent teleology as it were — of the materialist down-shift that he champions.

In an untrained mind, and in a mind not sufficiently familiar with the *world of ideas*, and this is to say a mind lacking a ‘master metaphysician’ as guide (this is our shared condition and the condition of modernity at its essential point), there is no way for that *blind* man to make headway and therefor he ‘stumbles when he sees’. Seeing then becomes stumbling.

It is really very peculiar because, in fact, this describes all of us and could very well describe this Forum if one were to reduce its 10 years of discourse into a small bottle of knowledge-drops. The point is that this describes, in my view, our essential condition within a powerful nihilistic current in which we are victims, not agents. The movement is not up but rather down ; it is not progressive, *upward* movement, but rather a progressive descent that occurs ; and though it represents itself as a *cure* it is more likely a symptom of the general confusion and malaise.

In response to this common attitude, Christopher Dawson writes:
If man limits himself to a satisfied animal existence, and asks from life only what such an existence can give, the higher values of life at once disappear. It is from that very element of the eternal and the unlimited, which the materialist seeks to deny, that the true progress of the human race has sprung. Throughout his history, man has been led, not as Buckle taught, by the rational pursuit of practical and material ends, but by belief in a transcendent reality (transcending the world of sense-experience, not, of course, the order of nature), and in the truth of moral and spiritual values. This is to a great extent true even of that civilization which the disciple of naturalism accepts as its end. Even Professor Bateson himself demands of his ideal eugenist community that it shall not eliminate the Shakespeares and the Beethovens. Yet what value remains in Shakesepare’s work if the doubt of Hamlet is a simple physical neurasthenia, and the despair of Lear but the reaction of a wounded animal to hostile circumstances?
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Santiago Odo »

Offices and homes of the Austrian Identitaire Movement (Identitäre Bewegung Österreichs) were recently raided. See this Red Ice video for a report. [Also, the Counter-Currents site has been under cyber attack for some days now].

One of the elements of our present, and part-and-parcel of the developing hyper-liberal regime which, to all appearances, seems to be consolidating control, is in the control of the range of ‘thinkable thought’. There are different ways to look at the issue of course, depending on where one stands and from what angle one views culture and modernity, but some attempt to put in some sort of order and articulate some general viewpoint about these phenomena of control is necessary.

In my own case (and this is fairly obvious from this this thread) I see the entire question as resolving into spiritual issues. This does take a good deal of time and effort to explain and some of this I have been attempting through submitting different information-angles within this thread. To make it simple and plain : my assertion is that it is intellectus that is being shut out of the picture. What this means is I think, ultimately, cognitive. That is, there is a regime operating in our present which seeks to assert control and consolidate control and that ultimately this amounts to a war against cognition which *it* recognizes does not serve its purposes. Therefor in my view, and this has deep historical roots, a war has been waged / is being waged on a spiritual plane against specific elements in or as I sometimes say against the *possibilities* within the human spirit. Ultimately, I understand this to be a war against *Christianity* and the Logos (and this requires careful explanation of what exactly is meant). And at the core this therefor defines a ‘war against Europe’.

This *war* against Europe is a complex affair, but I think it safe to say that it came into sharp(er) focus in the aftermath of the Second World War. And I further say that its central headquarters is in the United States. Therefor, to describe this machine which operates against cognition and cognitive possibilities, is to describe it in relation to the Americanopolis and the postwar regime.

If there is doubt about what is being referred to it is because, by nature, these are ‘shadow processes’. Again, not wishing to indulge in paranoid speculations one has to be very careful what one thinks and says. It is my personal opinion that we have a very clear emblem of this shadow and murk (for all that that is a contradictory phrase!) : everything that surrounds how a given person sees and understands the events of 9/11.

It is an ‘emblem’. Or it might be said to be a mysterium. There is no way to look at it that results in clarity or any sort of confirmation that one perceives correctly. It is in this sense like looking into a mirage. The more you look, the more the event is strange and obscure. The more that one chooses to continue to look, the deeper one is pulled into a sort of mysterious rabbit hole. It is my assertion that it is there, in that, that an ‘emblem’ that defines a large aspect of Our Present takes form.

Without wishing to fall into romantic paranoia and any sort of paranoid thinking generally, I would begin to describe this *force* that is operating against intellectus as demoniac. I realize that in making this claim I am, quite obviously, speaking from a metaphysical position that has become untenable to many in our present. And it is important to say that I am not speaking in metaphor. I am speaking in terms of spiritual realism and realistically. If this thread continues it is my object to at least allude to the core struggle and to demonstrate at least in glossary form why I think this and what has aided in forming these ideas.

For the time being I want to make at least some statement that touches the (relatively) recent spat between the Original Founders of this forum and which is documented in an adjacent thread. I think it is important to point out how — and this is truly odd! — Kevin seemed to be defending, in some way and in a basic sense, something fundamental to the freedom of expression, the freedom of having one’s own free-originated thoughts, and that he noticed the horrifying power of what I term ‘the hyper-liberal regime’.

But it is also clear that given what I understand as Kevin’s (and David and Dan’s) anti-metaphysical stance no part of what I am speaking about in this thread will be intelligible. But the very basis of my loooonnggg opposition to the GF Position, to its very structure and foundation, arises essentially out of my spiritual and religious orientation. In order to get clear about what, in fact, I really meant, which means to come to an articulated defense of my position which was internal and intuitive, not articulated and rationalized, I had to undertake some years of investigation and quite extensive reading. This substantially changed my entire position while it gave a foundation to my intuitions. In the course of that I realized that I am, in essence, a Johannine Christian but with a strong identitaire streak : a Eurocentric of traditionalist leanings. It is, to the degree that it is Thomist, a sort-of relationship to Catholicism, but then a definition of Catholicism as it pertains to Europe then becomes necessary. Not easy!

Or, as a result of investigaing the territory I became moved by the *basic argument* which is that of Logos. Thus Greco-Christian. But also Hemetic. Logos, in my view, is essentially the same as intellectus and is ultimately ur-metaphysics. (I will admit that I am in this sense a sort of ‘intellectual Christian’ if I can put it like this, which is sort of a liminal Christian, and all this is somewhat complex to explain).

Yet what I want to say, but am not completely sure how to say it, is that I sense that the *structure of ideas* that motivated the Founders, because it is a view that is essentially nihilistic, is also a manifestation of the *acid* I speak of which, as I assert here, ultimatley destroys cognition and the bridge between the visible-physical, biological being, and the invisible *higher world* of intellectus. That is where I would form my notion of what nihilism is. Nihilism results within a metaphysical crisis and is, shall we say, a cognitive affair. Which is to also say, of course, that the *atheistic movement* within the Occident is ultimately one branch of a destructive, not a creative, movement that results in cognitive dissolution. But, to understand this view, this assertion, requires a link to and a stance in the same intellectus referred to! A conundrum I guess that would be called.

I return to this *statement* :
“David Quinn” wrote:Fast forward to now and we can see that this long and steady progression has hit a major hurdle. The progression has scared people to such an extent that three major societal reactions have emerged over the past few decades, all of them driven by a deep hatred of truth - namely, (a) the conservative backlash (which is now reaching its peak in the Trump/Republican movement), (b) the rise of postmodernism, feminism, political correctness, etc (which reaches its peak in the extreme left), and (c) the slide into banality (which runs through the whole of society).
I suggest that this level of *declaration* needs to be carefully, but rigorously, questioned. But such a questioning involves a very difficult type of *research* which touches on metaphysics. And to investigate metaphysics, as I would define it, involves a comitment of the soul (psyche) and there is no other way to put it. It is not *rational* in the sense that this word is used. Though meta-rational and meta-intellectual are possible descriptors.

We do not understand what *hatred of the truth* really means. Well, that is my assertion of course which will certainly not be accepted by many given the implications. My position s not so much to *completely oppose* what Mr Quinn is speaking against, but rather to say that his description, his worldpicture, seems to me very incomplete. And that Mr Quinn’s own liberalish perspective, which I cannot say I quite grasp, carries within it acidic seeds that contribute to the dissolution of cognition required to reverse the motion of the present. A very tough topic taken all-told!
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

What fascinates me reading through the monologue above is the progression of "David' to "Mr Quinn". A certain distancing but also introducing the old "master", the elder, superior in status? But obviously intended as inversion, the feminine disposition card?

But enough about that. Alex, you remarked earlier:
When I talk about 'civilizational renovation' I am not speaking of Scottish Nationalism!
That was just me trying to pull the notion of "semi-symbolically European renovation" or any recovery of value and meaning back to actual processes taking place. And they are deeply related, which is why I presented it and also explained the why: disembodied being lacking a story and immediate, meaningful connects. Dispassionately one could witness theirs and your "independence march" under the same light. Reviving something using symbols, myth, past -- while drumming loudly about it. And this is of course the actual, historical reality of Europe, not just semi-symbolical or never-realized idealistic: the continuing battle of Independence and identity locally and the ever shifting allegiances, empires, migrations and invasions.
Could this be where our perspectives diverge? Obviously, my mind functions platonistically, and a non-platonist sees a platonic intellectual tendency as hallucination incarnate. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
In light of any substantial wider notions of mind it would all function way beyond language and abstract symbol. Hallucination then remains reality for beings lost in words, meanings and the perpetual, circular exchange of signs & symbols - in superficial layers, at best referential floats, with all the wilder waves of emotion and drifting icy sculptures where for many "life happens".

This is where I think "perspectives diverge" -- that is: existence is just not really there. Life doesn't happen at such "surface" but this would not imply rejection or any simple dismissive as it being illusion or hallucination. We are all born at the surface, as self, as some ego-identification process and in that sense I do know the world. But for those looking for life, existence, meaning and any "ultimate", it would mean some weighing down is needed before any lightness, as described by the mystics, could occur.

Perhaps best to illuminate this with the "mutter/matter" origination. After one realizes how the historical as process, as causality, gave rise to notions of physicality and self-existence, any "way out" of suffering, any deeper disjoint or friction our being experiences would be the realization that our self, as "project", remains part and parcel of that suffering. All advancement was possible through the chimera of distinction: seeing we are nude, seeing we are separate, introduction of the powerful justification and shaming processes. All magical powers to make the wheel go around.

And all escape, fix and healing remains part of it (but not in vain) unless a radical redefinition would take place of who we are and what we are. But that's certainly a ridiculous experience, assuming it even could be lived, as what would it then still mean? As for "Mr David", he appears to have become, like every aging person, a bit afraid for the process as it unfolds.

But this is all rather too early. Every radical vision arrives always too early. The natural laws dictate that sudden changes are non-distinct from violence. Slow changes are more beneficial. And as the old dies, hollows out into outward shells, hiding what's growing instead inside, the true simulacrum reveals itself as pure irony at times.
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Re: What now? Or ‘Nihilism as a Cure for Nihilism’.

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“Diebert” wrote:What fascinates me reading through the monologue above is the progression of "David' to "Mr Quinn". A certain distancing but also introducing the old "master", the elder, superior in status? But obviously intended as inversion, the feminine disposition card?
There is nothing in it really. Nothing more should be read in.

I hope that I do succeed in communicating that I am ‘in reaction to’ the definite signs and manifestations of nihilsm that are powerful in our day and in our own selves. I am aware of my reaction and my expressions of reaction are made openly. This is an important aspect of my critique : I advocate for reaction. Reaction, for me, means to deal with something at a level that is nor merely mental but all-encompassing.

It has to be stated, because it is true, that I have beyond any doubt brought forth — attempted — a reactionary movement against the very structure on which our associates built their edifice. But if I am involved in a Quixotic battle it is not against these three interesting lads, it is against something much larger, and more insidious. If there was excessive reaction leveled against them *personally* at any time, well, that is not the case now.

There is a difference, now, and it is that a great deal (more) time has passed ; that there are interestingly connected processes and developments which are ‘reactionary’ that have come to the fore (be it Scottish nationalism or the Trump phenomenon), and all these things, to me, seem part-and-parcel of related things. There is really something very timely, and indeed highly relevant, about the advent of Genius Forum as a bold and reactionary effort. The thing is, now, that those founders have, to all appearances, abandoned the field! Or, perhaps, they do not really understand what the field is. Who does? (It is very likely that I am most interested in Kevin’s position and development to be honest. I cannot see David of Dan’s position as possible of evolution).

If anything when I use the ‘Mr’ I am imitating academia-speak.
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