White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Discussion of science, technology, politics, and other topics that aren't strictly philosophical.
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Santiago Odo
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Post by Santiago Odo »

Pam wrote:Where your logic falls down here is that in reconstructing completely Idea at a more profound level is that you will not be able to avoid rebuilding that very sense of self that ties itself to a specific metaphysic or Construct. You're already giving evidence that you cannot avoid this Catch 22 dilemma, your words:
I see this issue and problem differently. Here is how I would describe it: When I spoke of those on another forum who seems to come at me with an elaborate 'construct', I meant that they specifically upheld an American identity and 'the tenets of the American civil religion'. I suggest that this identity is wrapped up in postward PR and propaganda efforts and also with social engineering projects. If you are interested in what I mean by social engineering' see E Michael Jones (The Slaughter of Cities).

I am not in any sense opposed to having identity, or defining identity, nor even searching for identity, nor recovering from fractured identity, or removing intrusions that have been thrust in to one's identity. My line of argument is that one has to make very deliberate efforts to get clear about what identity is and should be, what is good and proper in it, and how it is necessary to have it and develop it. But when 'identity' is weakened, or when it is swallowed into economic and multicultural projects, when it is fiddled with and manipulated, it is at that point that one must devote time to getting clear about one's own 'identifications'.

For you, apparently, all identity is a problem. You represent the Buddhist acid in relation to the question. And that is what brought you to GF I think. I do not have an issue with your value-preference per se. It is totally irrelevant to everything is all I would say. Even dissolving a specific identity proposes the contruction of another, fuller one.

I would also point out that you employ St John of the Cross not in a Christian or Catholic sense, but in a Buddhist sense or in a dissolution-of-self sense. I do not think that you actually accept the Christian/Catholic metaphysic nor the notion of the soul and the soul's salvation nor any part of that. Who knows what you are really up to?

But to understand St John of the Cross within his own context would mean speaking to that specific metaphysics. Your use of that reference is only to support your idea and your project of breaking apart any identity at all. Yours is a non-identity identity. Quite bizarre when you think about it!
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Pam Seeback
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Post by Pam Seeback »

Alex: I see this issue and problem differently. Here is how I would describe it: When I spoke of those on another forum who seems to come at me with an elaborate 'construct', I meant that they specifically upheld an American identity and 'the tenets of the American civil religion'. I suggest that this identity is wrapped up in postward PR and propaganda efforts and also with social engineering projects. If you are interested in what I mean by social engineering' see E Michael Jones (The Slaughter of Cities).
I suggest that identity is first wrapped up in social conditioning leaving one vulnerable to social engineering projects.
I am not in any sense opposed to having identity, or defining identity, nor even searching for identity, nor recovering from fractured identity, or removing intrusions that have been thrust in to one's identity. My line of argument is that one has to make very deliberate efforts to get clear about what identity is and should be, what is good and proper in it, and how it is necessary to have it and develop it.
Just how do you propose determining clarity of what identity is if one is uncertain of the nature of existence upon which one's identity (or non-identity) depends?
But when 'identity' is weakened, or when it is swallowed into economic and multicultural projects, when it is fiddled with and manipulated, it is at that point that one must devote time to getting clear about one's own 'identifications'.
No argument here.
For you, apparently, all identity is a problem. You represent the Buddhist acid in relation to the question. And that is what brought you to GF I think. I do not have an issue with your value-preference per se. It is totally irrelevant to everything is all I would say. Even dissolving a specific identity proposes the construction of another, fuller one.
It is true that there is a process of rejecting one's socially-conditioned identity when one desires to discover the truth about the nature of existence and how 'they' fit into this discovery, and your use of the term 'acid' to describe how this rejection of identity 'feels' is an apt one. After all, does not acid remove rust?

You mentioned the Buddha who did indeed take the very same acid, but I place forward that it is also the same acid that was taken by Jesus (the 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness with the anti-Christ). To me, GF represents this same walk into the wilderness and taking of the acid that was taken by these two spiritual greats.
I would also point out that you employ St John of the Cross not in a Christian or Catholic sense, but in a Buddhist sense or in a dissolution-of-self sense. I do not think that you actually accept the Christian/Catholic metaphysic nor the notion of the soul and the soul's salvation nor any part of that. Who knows what you are really up to?

But to understand St John of the Cross within his own context would mean speaking to that specific metaphysics. Your use of that reference is only to support your idea and your project of breaking apart any identity at all. Yours is a non-identity identity. Quite bizarre when you think about it!
Well then, let's speak of that specific metaphysic. As I understand the dark night of the soul to be, it represents the first stage of the search for the truth of God, the first stage of withdrawal from attachment to the senses so that one's imagination of God is 'cut off at the knees' so to speak. Cue again Jesus in the wilderness overcoming his temptation to imagine God into existence (Satan, the god of effect-attachment).

And that this dark night of the soul that both Jesus and St. John experienced is the precursor to the next stage in the search for the truth of God's nature, the dark night of the spirit, the dividing of soul (imagination of God) from spirit (the living God). This metaphysical cut of spirit from soul is addressed in Hebrews 4:12, scripture that St. John would most surely been aware of: "For the word of God [truth of the nature of existence, parenthesis mine] is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit..." The cross then, in relation to the two dark nights, would be the symbol of the dividing of soul from spirit.

Does spirit divided from soul have an identity that can be developed as is your desire? Given that soul is the house of development, it is a logical conclusion that no, spirit divided from soul cannot be identity-developed. Does this mean spirit is void of definition? On the contrary, spirit IS definition (the living Word).
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Santiago Odo
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Post by Santiago Odo »

Pam wrote:Just how do you propose determining clarity of what identity is if one is uncertain of the nature of existence upon which one's identity (or non-identity) depends?
There you have asked the question that goes precisely to the heart of the major issue. And how you (or me or anyone) answers that question determines everything else. Most people do not ask the question nor answer it, yet they participate in an understanding of it. That is, this is their 'metaphysics'. They do not think about it. There is no need to. They 'receive' it and they 'agree' to it.

I suggest that on the 'philosophical right', for example the European New Right, you will discover many people who are working in these areas.

You, however, are working in a peculiar area and it is one that has no reach beyond yourself and a very limited and local conversation. Time and time again this is revealed in every conversation with you. I do not criticise you for this. I just do not have any relationship at all to that peculiar project.
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Pam Seeback
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Post by Pam Seeback »

Pam wrote:
Just how do you propose determining clarity of what identity is if one is uncertain of the nature of existence upon which one's identity (or non-identity) depends?
Alex wrote: There you have asked the question that goes precisely to the heart of the major issue. And how you (or me or anyone) answers that question determines everything else. Most people do not ask the question nor answer it, yet they participate in an understanding of it. That is, this is their 'metaphysics'. They do not think about it. There is no need to. They 'receive' it and they 'agree' to it.
So far, we're on the same page.
I suggest that on the 'philosophical right', for example the European New Right, you will discover many people who are working in these areas.
Whatever areas the right or the left find with regards to thinking about their metaphysics, every scrap of these areas is received data, this is the collective-subjective history of humanity at work.

The deeper truth here is that the right cannot exist without the left and vice versa. Why this knowledge is so important is that both sides, the left and the right, believe that they can actualize an absolute society according to their agreed-upon identity, which of course is metaphysically impossible. I believe that the European Right's 'metapolitics' is a perfect example of this delusion of absoluteness of ideal.
Alex wrote: You, however, are working in a peculiar area and it is one that has no reach beyond yourself and a very limited and local conversation. Time and time again this is revealed in every conversation with you. I do not criticise you for this. I just do not have any relationship at all to that peculiar project.
It is no secret that politics and truth cannot meet. And yes, one can know this and participate in political discussions, however, truth is water, politics is oil, you can shake them up, but that's all you can do (discuss). Keeps the mind occupied and intellectually sharp, not suffering-causing, unless of course, attachment to any one view is caused.

A metaphysically wise person knows what is happening behind the scenes and if they choose to step into the scenes all kinds of messy things have the potential to be caused. This is my take on the recent "David's return" scenario, one that of course, extended far beyond David.
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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Pam wrote:It is no secret that politics and truth cannot meet. And yes, one can know this and participate in political discussions, however, truth is water, politics is oil, you can shake them up, but that's all you can do (discuss). Keeps the mind occupied and intellectually sharp, not suffering-causing, unless of course, attachment to any one view is caused.

A metaphysically wise person knows what is happening behind the scenes and if they choose to step into the scenes all kinds of messy things have the potential to be caused. This is my take on the recent "David's return" scenario, one that of course, extended far beyond David.
The GF project began, as I have said, as a reform project. I assert that it was in its essence a project that involved the revelation of a specific and pre-modern metaphysics and it is upon this metaphysics that it constructed itself. Largely, this can be seen as being a Buddhist metaphysics, which is to say Vedic or post-Vedic, but in essence it is an eastern metaphysic.

In our present we all seem to notice that things are topsy-turvy and absurdly mixed-up. My impression of the GF project as a reform movement was that it noticed this and it did what any concerned person would do and must do: it proposed a corrective. It couched its definitions in a number of areas: noting irrationalism and the abandonment of 'reason'; noticing culture and society giving itself over to the female and the feminine, et cetera.

I suggest that it is 'metaphysical wisdom' to recover a realtionship to metaphysics. I assert that one cannot, in fact, abandon metaphysical definitions even though they are often bound up with story, narrative, a worldpicture deeply enmeshed in the imagination. For this reason I define the GF platform as a metaphysical project and as a religious project essentially. It seems to me, and I say this without malice, that David Dan and Kevin seem now to have disconnected from the project itself. Or, each of them seems to be following disparate lines.

In my view, to define a metaphysics is to define a relationship, conceptually, mentally and spiritually, to an 'upperworld'. The conceptual world, the world of reason and idea, the angelic world, the world of God in the sense of Being or origin outside of manifestation. I regard the destruction of the 'conceptual pathway to a defined metaphysics' as being profoundly negative. I think that one has to ask what is it that destroys that metaphysical linkage. I have often said that this involves locating and describing the 'acid' that eats away at both the self and also the conceptual structure, or ladder, that leads to this 'upper world'.

Now, you say that politics and truth cannot meet and, sure, I grasp what you mean. But I do not agree. In fact I am duty-bound to disagree. We define a metaphysics and then we build in this world in relation to that. The world that we have was built in this way. To understand this requires a delicate, careful and nuanced way of thinking and seeing. It requires 'intellectual preparation' and cannot be done by someone outside of that preparation.

The work of reconstructing a relationship to metaphysics is a fraught affair to the degree that we are captured by the anti-metaphysics of the present. I refer to this as 'the swamp' and I have recently been attempting to break through the Kevlar-like intellectual walls diligently constructed by a local Spider who shall remain unnamed. I assert that the anti-metaphysics of the present is a form of encroaching nescience, and that nescience is, in the language of symbols, the demoniac. Put another way, the demoniac can be symbolically grasped, or intellectually grasped, as nescience.
  • Nescience: Latin nescientia, from Latin nesciēns, nescient-, present participle of nescīre, to be ignorant : ne-, not; see ne in Indo-European roots + scīre, to know; see skei- in Indo-European roots.
It revolves, I think, around the most essential definitions, which is to say knowledge-of, the very place where we find ourselves. If seems to me that we exist in 'collapsed metaphysics' insofar as the definitions that we have of who and what we are, where and why we are, all all in disarray. Therefor: it became necessary in the GF reform project to redefine a basic metaphysics. In my own case I have enough of a project given to me as a reult of this basic conception to last me a life-time. It is vast, it is rich, it is crucially important, it touches on all important definitions, circumscribes meaning and value in their most relevant senses, and touches my life and all lives acutely. It is the primary definition.

Now, I do not turn to Buddhist metaphysics though I do have some background in, and a tremendous respect for, Vedic metaphysical definitions. I really wish at times that Christian metaphysics had a similar grounding. It is true though that Vedic metaphysics can be described as Medieval metaphysics insofar as it traces back to a pre-modern worldpicture. And it is true as well that Aquinas, rooted in pre-modern metaphysics, interesects with Vedic world conceptions. And it is similarly true that Platonic or Aristotelian worldview is similarly grounded, quite definitely, in a former metaphysics, a metaphysics prior to Modernism and Positivism as we now understand it (as our minds and the function of mind is bound to these ideas).

My idea is that we have to (have to: imperative: must) recover a Western metaphysics, or an Occidental metaphysics. It is impossible to say, within that domain, that 'truth' and 'politics' do not have a relationship. (Yet I do grasp that you are speaking of Machiavellianism when you refer to politics).

The reason I choose to involve myself in a Western Identity Recovery Project is wrapped up in these definitions, these understandings. I said to Boy Spider at various times that I would 'rewrite Genius Forum'. That is, I would take out of its its essential predicates and rework them to be sufficient models for a person, adrift, severed from his or her matrix, seeking a way back to a sound metaphysics. To say that it is not political is simply absurd. It's everything and all things!
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Pam Seeback wrote:A metaphysically wise person knows what is happening behind the scenes and if they choose to step into the scenes all kinds of messy things have the potential to be caused. This is my take on the recent "David's return" scenario, one that of course, extended far beyond David.
In my view you have missed the significance of it as you might still look too much at the appearance and the desire for certain things to look a certain way, compatible with your own, somewhat religious outlook. David's re-appearance was a classic "SJW" move. The only motive displayed and admitted to was to downgrade and challenge Kevin's politics, even without him being around -- not an unimportant detail, as if it never was meant to become an actual discussion. It became not just rant but a mild form of persecution. A ridiculing and debasing of someone without being able to name any specific reason what the "sin" actually was.

All of this means that the SJW 'politics" extents far beyond the political and arrived at Genius Forum in the shape and form of whatever project Dan and David have embarked on. In the end this is not about SJW or anti-SJW. Or white nationalism or black matters. This is about people getting into the grip of the overall anxiety (of life, of social existence, of looking back on their own past and identity) and finding a target to attack as the most simple outlet for that anxiety. Then some reason, some justifier is put in place to make it look a bit more sane and acceptable.

Therefore these "justifier" wars extent way further than some identity movements or any rise of activism in favor or against it. Those are only the justifiers where other sentiments are hiding behind. And one cannot hide from it as it's going to pervade everything. "Everything is politics" as Thomas Mann wrote. Or Baudrillard's view of the society of simulation where the realms of economics, politics, culture, sexuality and the social all implode into each other (e.g. the trans-sexual, multi-culture etc). This is the reason you see it merge with the philosophical discussion as well. It's not the philosopher's wish at all but it's more like the society's "destiny" to make it now about everything and as such the big "nothing" arises in its wake.
Santiago Odo wrote:I would 'rewrite Genius Forum'. That is, I would take out of its its essential predicates and rework them to be sufficient models for a person, adrift, severed from his or her matrix, seeking a way back to a sound metaphysics. To say that it is not political is simply absurd. It's everything and all things!
From a simple logical but also practical perspective, to say it's "Everything and all things" means that it ends up being a lot of words about nothing specific at all. It would be better to work more structurally and handle one aspect at the time and not, like some "Dirk Gently" trying to holistically make everything relevant all of the time. Trying to do so is simply a mental disease as it will de-organize the mind, destroy the conversation and prevent any tangible fruits. With that in mind, and looking at the evidence like the many dozens of instances where one witness the unorganized textual output, lack of conversations and zero outcome, one has to question the soundness of such approach. It seems a lot like building on shifting sands and pointing at imaginary castles.
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Post by Santiago Odo »

As I muse over the recent events, and as it appears that at least 2 of the original Geniuses have fairly obviously hit a wall and will go no further, I find myself musing on my favorite Swamp Dweller. You resolve into Baudrillard. Diebert van Marécage! The Witness who describes, reporter-like, what happens in swampiness and revels in it, turns it over tenderly in his hand, elevates it to a shelf, takes it down from time to time to admire it. It is a vain and a worthless pursuit Diebert. There is really nothing to take away from it. It leads to no internal or external activity. I would suggest that it encapsulates how you, intellectually, waste your time.

My view of the David/Dan vs Kevin incident is that no one of them is actually prepared for the conversation --- the encounter of ideas --- that would be required to understand the magnitude of the issues which are coming up. So they do what most people do, and which you alluded to above: they rush into the fray and exclaim their emotions. Obviously, it deals in 'reproach' and obviously they merely enunciate a fixed set of emotionalized concerns. It seems to me that you have grasped pretty well this simple fact.

But the more interesting element here, from my perspective in any case, is to come to see with some clarity your relationship to the same problem. That 'problem' is, of course, the main topic yet in your case you can only approach the topic as Baudrillard's 'bitch' (to put it colorfully). You have ventured forth with M. Baudrillard and end up mucking around in a swamp from which you cannot exit. In this sense --- and if what I say is true --- I would respectfully suggest that your discourse becomes a never-ceasing wall of text about structural details but that cannot shape itself into anything decisive in the sense I use the word. For you it becomes a love-affair with the wallow.

This is why I return to the grand question of metaphysics. I accept that we are all in one way or another victims of and determined by swamp-like postmodernity. So far so good. We have to start from some level of realization about what happened, what happened to us, and why. This requires a good deal of analysis and analysis of this sort is work. I venture to propose that Dan and David though they might have begun the project of self-understanding and analysis of 'the acids of our age' to quote Lippmann, lost their way within this project as they made the conscious choice to become Gurus. The thing about Kevin is that next to nothing is revealed because he does not write in any length or depth and I have no idea where he stands and I don't think anyone does or can. But surely David and Dan have revealed --- against their own will and to their inevitable embarrassment I'd imagine --- how unrelated they are to the 'project' and how far they have deviated from (what I suggest are) its necessary concerns.

We must propose an image here and one that helpts to illustrate what is being talked about. I see the issue as that of men stuck in a relatively deep mud-pit. At some point some of them realize that it is a mud-puddle and that they are trapped in it. You had to have had awareness on some level to realize this, and that awareness is 'spiritual'. It is a form of Grace to have arrived at the awarness required to see one's condition I think. But the nature of a mud-pit is insidious. Rash attempt at escape leads to wasted expenditure of energy and, after some effort, one finds one's self back in the slimy thick. I suppose there is some attractiveness in 'setting oneself up as Guru of swamp-escape' and gathering Chelas. Or becoming a Buddhist YouTube star and crooning wisdom from out of the Void. (All this was going on of course and you said fuck-all about it). And then there is Spider Mother with her ample, spongy breasts distributing 'philosophy' from her nubs.

Now, you are a pretty sharp fellow all things considered and I am quite sure that you capture the image and what it means and portends. I suggest to you that your basic argument in relation to it and the only commentary you have is, essentially, that there is no escape. That is of course why you find yourself in the swamp and why, like the junkyard dog, you have become the swamp-spider: you understand it, you know every corner of it, your *web* spans it, you have burrows and tunnels that no one even dreams about which lead to the clever illusion that you are in 5 places at once, like Neem Karoli Baba. (I don't even want to think right now about the Spider Pit where you toss your enemies!) But you are just stuck in the swamp Diebert. And you have no idea how to get out of it.
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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Santiago Odo wrote: I would respectfully suggest that your discourse becomes a never-ceasing wall of text about structural details but that cannot shape itself into anything decisive in the sense I use the word. For you it becomes a love-affair with the wallow.
Just quoting this gem as I lost count the times this criticism was levelled against your posts. Which could mean many things: a) we are actually much alike, b) common projection, c) a sign of denied misunderstanding or d) an inevitable feature of language when it starts dwelling on the real and modernity ( and indeed Baudrillard would say so and at least admit it!). Some people invented the Zen koan or mystical poetry as counter-measure. It should be understood why they did that.
This is why I return to the grand question of metaphysics.
Many people have dealt with the question but in less grandiose terms. And in the end the most sound answer they came up with so far revolved around promoting rationality, courage, self-honesty, inquiry, reason, perhaps even "masculine values" when they embody those in terms of willingness to sacrifice and endurance.

The reason that answer shows up is because there's no "magical" attribute underlying any rise of civilization, thought, language and ultimately wisdom. It's based on the work of people who, individually, developed a relationship with what has been called the "infinite" and thus genius as function of consciousness and not of intellect or language. From that well, many things arise, some beauty, some horror, in terms of what people --often the ones picking up the crumbs under the table-- ended up doing. This forum did the sane thing: encouraging philosophical development of person-hood to a masculine level, reason and the willingness to struggle. Why is that drive not enough? What kind of "magic" do you suppose is missing here?
But surely David and Dan have revealed --- against their own will and to their inevitable embarrassment I'd imagine --- how unrelated they are to the 'project' and how far they have deviated from (what I suggest are) its necessary concerns.
It's not a problem for me as I see genius as impersonal. It can take "possession" of someone for a while and is not guaranteed to stay or "flourish". And who could claim that? In a world where reality itself often turns out contradicting and chaotic, one cannot just apply some "metaphysics" out of thin air, from the past or out of some metaphysical logic. For me wisdom works, yes, even exists for us in the "abstract" but as well functioning inside a context. To find it or "incarnate" this into concrete, detailed, messy situations, as some "object', would quickly become politics: the fundamental material concern; the circular discussion on facts and figures applied to real life. That in itself is an amazing project which might need to be reviewed entirely!
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

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awiseman wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:37 pm But let's cut the nonsense. Name ONE significant achievement to come from Arabs, Africans, or any of the Aboriginal people of Australia or the Americas. I don't care what it's in: math, science, philosophy, art, or literature. I'll save you the legwork. There are none. ZERO. The most valuable contributions to mankind have come almost exclusively from white men of European genetic stock. Even the East Asians are a distant second.
False.
Image

Think the Arabs did some maths one time, Arabs are genetically the same as Jews and Jews did some maths one time, think his name was Einstein maybe.

Arabs used to do maths, until this one Arab priest declared that Math was against the Quran, he also started to label art and recreation as against the Quran, that is after that priest, they lost the potential for greater Arabian civilization like it was flushed straight down the toilet. Thus in the case of the Arabs, meme's trumped genes, or it could be argued, their submissive, yet hysterical genes and insatiable desire to obey delusions.

Also, don't you dare talk about my Nintendo. Say what you want about Asians, but do not question the holy name of Shigeru Miyamoto. If it wasn't for the Japanese, the white man's mediocre trash games would have collapsed the whole market.

As for African's, I think Northern Africans made some inventions, I don't remember what they were, I think they were the Pyramids maybe. Sub-saharan's are a different story, breeders and traders did not want to put the effort of crossing the Sahara desert, so subsaharan's never really reaped much of the benefits of civilization (genetics or otherwise.)

Also, Santiago seems perfectly rational to me, a guy I can really rally behind.
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

There's this odd thing about how antisemitism tends to blend with nationalist movements while some of the strongest nationalist movements of last half century are definitely Semite based: the Palestinian struggle for self-determination and of course the full realized, nuclear powered, walled in military state of Israel, founded as a result of the Zionist movement.

The reason this struggle has no fix, or no solution beyond a final destructive one, lies in the fact that the conflict is based on unrealizable myths kept alive by all participants. The question is not asked yet: can we distinguish our wishes from folly?

Now on to The Twisted Logic of the Jewish ‘Historic Right’ to Israel by Shlomo Sand, historian and professor emeritus of Tel Aviv University, as published in opinion section of the Israeli "left mainstream" newspaper Haaretz.
I don’t think peoples existed before the modern era – that possibility would have been ruled out by the level of communication they had.(...) In an age when few people could read and write, when each village had a different dialect and the lexicon was appallingly meager, it’s hard to talk about a people with a shared consciousness.
The tragedy of Zionism is that they wished to erect a profile, a story about a "people" and their historical struggle in the very age where those stories are fading and losing relevance, meaning and connectivity. And instead a bloody fantasy was created and needs an utter mindless, mind killing, defending against "barbarians at the door". However the Palestinians are possibly in a worse state: they share the ambition but lack of funding, lack of ruthless tactical organization, leaving them with a fantasy and not more else. The irony is that the moment they'd give up the struggle for people-hood, the Zionist project will collapse from the inside out, as well, and be replaced by something else entirely, over time.

The relevance to this thread is the notion that are no meaningful "European people" -- not before the modern era. And it's hard to press for anything like that on any serious scale at all globally. Instead you had, as Shlomo wrote: " large clans, tribes, powerful kingdoms, large principalities, religious communities and other groups with various forms of political and social bonds – usually loose ones". And these bonds were too loose to speak about distinct genetics as defining factor.

Masculinity and genius are, in this context, more like possible effects of a system, like the pinnacle, the cap stone on a pyramid. They should not be mistaken as cause of anything. The particular grouping giving rise to a heap of stones appears more as incidental and very complex in formative history. Truth however manifests at the top and won't be found at the bottom.
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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The reason this struggle has no fix, or no solution beyond a final destructive one, lies in the fact that the conflict is based on unrealizable myths kept alive by all participants. The question is not asked yet: can we distinguish our wishes from folly?
I think I would simplify the question here, and without veering toward the doctrines of anti-Zionism espoused by, let us say, 'ignorant antisemites'. The reason the issue has no fix is because it comes about through a land-robbery. In a sense it does not matter what specific phantasy impelled the robbery. But in this case, according to Miko Peled, and as is fairly obvious, the mythos that has been employed is that of the Biblical People Returning to the Land of their Ancestors After Times of Great Trial and Tribulation. Once one recognizes -- if one can recognize it -- that the Biblical Return script cannot function even within its own context (within the System of the original story), and in truth is cover for a fairly obvious crime, one finds oneself in a very difficult position of adjudication of an impossible situation.

My view -- I would not call it cynical and instead see it as realistic -- is that History in no sense is finished. Those terrible events, those catastrophic events, of the entire 20th century: these 2 wars which have undermined Europe and seem to presage the destruction of it, and all that has spun out of this as 'aftermath', are all still in motion. To put it in direct terms I would say (excuse me if I am dramatizing) that annihilation is still a specter hanging over history (if I can put it like this). Whatever happened in Europe in the Twentieth Century (hard to define what did happen) is still in movement. This points toward a prognostication but Who sees? What Seer can envision where this tends?

I have to confess that when I watched the ceremonials of the establishment of the embassy in Jerusalem -- the smiles, the glee even, the sense of having prevailed historically -- it seemed to me that no one there could entertain the possibility that (and excuse me if I am wrong: I might be) that the project is *destined* to fail. It is interesting to consider why, from within the structure of the larger Story (the Biblical story) why this is so. Let me put it this way: The Return to Israel was not brought about by *God* but by an act of the will of man. In fact, again if I am not mistaken, by men who were not really Jews in the religious sense, but essentially atheists. According to the religious narrative itself this manoeuvre is destined to fail. Man proposes, God disposes, that sort of thing.
The tragedy of Zionism is that they wished to erect a profile, a story about a "people" and their historical struggle in the very age where those stories are fading and losing relevance, meaning and connectivity. And instead a bloody fantasy was created and needs an utter mindless, mind killing, defending against "barbarians at the door". However the Palestinians are possibly in a worse state: they share the ambition but lack of funding, lack of ruthless tactical organization, leaving them with a fantasy and not more else. The irony is that the moment they'd give up the struggle for people-hood, the Zionist project will collapse from the inside out, as well, and be replaced by something else entirely, over time.
You are failing to take into consideration that you are referring to *yourself* (you as a European generality). In fact, worldwide, the *religious narrative* has exploded in its reach. See Peter Berger and the rise of Pentecostalism. But it is true that among those of the European intellectual classes most are unable to *see* the former mythos as *being real*. Nevertheless, it is true that Israel, through its Public Relations, plays itself out through, if you will permit this turn of phrase, a manipulation of beliefs in relation to itself. As for example when considering the manipulation (exploitation is perhaps a better word) of American Evangelicals and the collusion necessary to avail the American State to more or less open service to the Israeli historical project.

As you-plural know, there is a story-line circulating on the Webs that 9/11 was engineered by a para-governmental and Mossad-like intelligence clique. What that means, what the declaration resolves to, is a hyper-intelligent in the sense of hyper-historically-aware group of planners and actors who have resolved to take history by its horns, as it were, and mold it to the existential and survivalist will of Israel. But what is *Israel*? What does this now mean? What does Jew mean? There, the entire story does indeed get murky and very very strange. Because it means more than just a (religious) idea, it actually seems to correspond to a Multinational and corporate power-structure: an intricate system of terrestrial power and management. In the Diaspora one of the *utilities* of intelligent and capable Jewry had been *service to the King*. That is, service to terrestrial power.

Thus, what *Israel* mean and what *Jew* means is actually, as it takes terrestrial form, the very structure of *world domination* (though I regret putting it in those terms). The only power that could solidify Israel is terrestrial power, the power of the war-machine, and the will of the dominant players. Therefor, the entire realization of the Israel Project begins to take on a very odd cast. Put another way, it has no metaphysical nor transcendent aspect. So, within the story-line itself it must play the villain. This is one of the horrifying contradictions of the Jewish construct itself!
The relevance to this thread is the notion that are no meaningful "European people" -- not before the modern era. And it's hard to press for anything like that on any serious scale at all globally. Instead you had, as Shlomo wrote: " large clans, tribes, powerful kingdoms, large principalities, religious communities and other groups with various forms of political and social bonds – usually loose ones". And these bonds were too loose to speak about distinct genetics as defining factor.
No, that is not the sole 'relevance' of the thread, since there are many levels of relevance. If in you all possible *identifications* have fallen down and you can erect no one of them -- all are *seductions* -- that does not mean that identity and identification are not still relevant or valid. It just means means that you are a musical instrument of your time that trumpets forth a particular, rather dry, melody. Again, you-Diebert are a specific outcome of a specific motion within Postwar European history. You seem less an agent of that history and more an automatic rendering, if you catch my meaning. That is, you are not creating yourself, you are merely expressing what had been created.

The notion of European Identity, and I must parenthesize that by saying *in the best sense* and in the ideal sense, is a genuine recovery of solid and substantial values. It will either be done or it won't be done let's put it that way. It is a recovery as-against what is eating away at them and it. You have been involved (since 2006!) in an Acidic Project that represents and emblemizes the will-to-destruction that came out of the Catastrophes of the Twentieth Century.

Your discourse is a Swan Song. You now know this because I have brought this message home to you in such powerful terms. You are the Genius Forum victim, both in the sense of being the chief protagonist of its self-destructive *philosophy*, and the most European element that expresses its will-to-die! To go forward you must come back to life. I call to you from the upper regions. Awake, child!

This is the most amazing part here. It has taken so long to reveal this in clarity and yet it has been clearly done!
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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Russel Parr wrote:Consciousness that values truth is indeed a manifestation of masculinity. But obviously, masculinity is not exclusive to any race. Now, you could argue that whites and asians have a better sense of urgency and are more incentivized to pursue truth to a higher degree, and I would agree (edit: whites and asians of old. I don't think this can be said for modern people of any race, in general). But this does not speak for the capability of other races in valuing and adhering to Truth.

You see, you aren't speaking from a place of wisdom at all, but from fear. Fear of genetic annihilation. This is the great sin of the white man. Now, this ugliness wouldn't rear its head so bad if there weren't many problems with society today, but there are. From a financial standpoint, the West is in enormous trouble. Most people are trying to ignore the root cause of this (namely, the predatory debt-slave banking system, or plain greed, if we're talking psychology), including the media, but everyone can tell there is a big problem at least on a subconscious level. As such, this panic is manifesting in indirect ways, such as in the way you have been demonstrating.
Here Russell accurately points to the very core of the issue: annihilation and the fear of it. But interesting to note that he describes that fear as pathological and a 'great sin'. That is pretty amazing in and of itself! That shows you just how devious and destructive, at its very operative core, is a psuedo-philosophy like that of GF, and why the further articulators of it, those who are invested in it, represent not constructivity but destructivity. That is, GF as a project of destroying the possibility of real identity and establishing a locus in a meaningless abstraction.

This thread, odd as it seems, goes right to the heart of the issue. Still, if AWM (awiseman) is a spokesman of *what is needed* and *what is required*, one can only say: We have a long way to go.

But recovery and renewal should not ever be seen as *easy*. What is indeed *easy* are the strategies of endless philosophical self-pleasuring carried on by some of the longstanding members here.
Santiago wrote:Masculinity is not exclusive to a race, but this is a Forum which occurs within a Western context, in English, and is linked whether it likes it or not (or understands its link) to the Occident and to Occidental ideation. Period.

Therefor, the question of Occidental masculinity is a very good one, and it is an aspect of masculinity, in my view, to be guardian and protector. So, the issue is What is to be protected? How? What is to be protected and why?

The wise ones who founded this forum, they themselves, are very uncertain and timorous about what this means.

The whole nebulous 'Truth' reference is a reference to an abstraction. You seem to guess about what it is and what wisdom is as well, and now you have less support from 'the forum' given the ridiculous postures of some of its founders. There are truths, and there are applications of truth to people and places and times. If Truth is to be talked about, it has to be defined. You have never done this, nor has Jupi.

AWM may or may not be speaking from a position of 'fear'. He may be speaking just as well from an embryonic ideological position and one that is more angry than fearful. In fact I would suggest that you, Russell, are fearful of what the implications of white identity are in America for you. You have a justified fear.

The conversation does not begin nor does it end with AWM. His concerns are valid, or can be articulated in valid and coherent terms. That he relies on tropes and pre-fabricated talking-points does not change that.

I would argue, because I think it can be articulately argued, that to pay attention to one's genetic and physical self is essential, and that people do not do this a great omission and an error. But I extend this to all people, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Middle Eastern and what-have-you.

Therefor, and in that context, a white identity movement is perfectly sane and perfectly defensible. It involves a thorough reworking of one's entire relationship to self, to locale, to traditions, to mind: everything.
I agree. That Santiago is really a guy we can rally behind! Raise the Banner!

Oh, wait! he was referring to me...

::: blushes :::
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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Santiago Odo wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:12 pm... annihilation is still a specter hanging over history (if I can put it like this). Whatever happened in Europe in the Twentieth Century (hard to define what did happen) is still in movement.
Yes and this is a larger issue even than the Holocaust or the sacrifice of so many lives on the altars of the gods of the Great War.
It is interesting to consider why, from within the structure of the larger Story (the Biblical story) why this is so. (..) According to the religious narrative itself this manoeuvre is destined to fail. Man proposes, God disposes, that sort of thing.
For me it would lead to the deeper inquiry into how people would develop into "a people", nationhood and at some modern point: statehood. It's understood that a modern Zionist might say that it doesn't matter any more what the history reads like but that the situation now, the power distribution now, the sense of identity of a majority people inside a defined area is what will create and uphold all of that. It's like doing "behavioral history".

My take is a bit different in that I think two elements are missing: sufficient root and enough space to grow into without hitting too many rocks in the larger landscape. The roots are shaped by the past, not just belief but what actually happened beyond the books. And the needed space, the future, would require here good ties with prime partners in the region and as well some globally. And although I've seen the attempts, I think those bonds are overall increasingly weakening and hitting "rock bottom". And all the technology, trade or money is not going to solve the artificiality of this nation. Internal political pressure based on the contradictions surfacing might make things more clear in this regard. Then again, the future is not fixed by any prediction.
Thus, what *Israel* mean and what *Jew* means is actually, as it takes terrestrial form, the very structure of *world domination* (though I regret putting it in those terms). The only power that could solidify Israel is terrestrial power, the power of the war-machine, and the will of the dominant players. Therefor, the entire realization of the Israel Project begins to take on a very odd cast. Put another way, it has no metaphysical nor transcendent aspect. So, within the story-line itself it must play the villain. This is one of the horrifying contradictions of the Jewish construct itself!
All the metaphorical implications are pretty strong, as you surely will agree with me. There's pure magic here embodied by such oddly contradicting self-construct. It might depend on ones colors if this looks like the white or black variety of magic.
The notion of European Identity, and I must parenthesize that by saying *in the best sense* and in the ideal sense, is a genuine recovery of solid and substantial values. It will either be done or it won't be done let's put it that way. It is a recovery as-against what is eating away at them and it. You have been involved (since 2006!) in an Acidic Project that represents and emblemizes the will-to-destruction that came out of the Catastrophes of the Twentieth Century.
It's understood that you want some kind of "return" to solid and substantial values, or even a solid or substantial notion of self. As if there ever was one! That's what I call the all-too-human condition but you keep making such a big stink about it!
The relevance to this thread is the notion that are no meaningful "European people"
No, that is not the sole 'relevance' of the thread, since there are many levels of relevance.
But I wrote "to this thread", you blind, aging man! Good reasoning starts with good reading and understanding of what you critique. And I have maintained here for years that you show this remarkable talent of cherry picking bits while twisting the rest as to create a straw man of the infinite, about whom you then file your objections at the forum. And some of the posts have been good, ironically, just not that applicable to what you think it has to apply to. In some cases it seemed mostly applicable to your self.

As for your statement on being a "Genius Forum victim", its main problem is that it's a bit too small of a statement but it comes from a relatively small man of course, or someone who keeps close to the surface. My own trajectory is mapped very well by me, actually it's the hallmark of wisdom to be able to describe and map ones own route, with increasing clarity and yet still walking it! My trajectory was set way back before this forum. But of course it's possible to define "genius forum" as a larger place or function.
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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Diebert wrote:For me it would lead to the deeper inquiry into how people would develop into "a people", nationhood and at some modern point: statehood. It's understood that a modern Zionist might say that it doesn't matter any more what the history reads like but that the situation now, the power distribution now, the sense of identity of a majority people inside a defined area is what will create and uphold all of that. It's like doing "behavioral history".
Perhaps you could dig out other examples but at first blush I can think of no better example of a *people* who then developed the notion of *nation*. There is something striking about the Jewish will in this and in other senses. When I read Houston Chamberlain's 'The Foundations of the Nineteenth Century' I admit being rather surprised at the poignancy of his idea that what astounds, and also alarms, about Jews is Jewish will. The will to hold fact to an idea through time. A tenaciousness that becomes religious. But the actual fact, is it not, that Jewish history is as much about not having and seeking a *nation* more than it is about having one.
My take is a bit different in that I think two elements are missing: sufficient root and enough space to grow into without hitting too many rocks in the larger landscape. The roots are shaped by the past, not just belief but what actually happened beyond the books. And the needed space, the future, would require here good ties with prime partners in the region and as well some globally. And although I've seen the attempts, I think those bonds are overall increasingly weakening and hitting "rock bottom". And all the technology, trade or money is not going to solve the artificiality of this nation. Internal political pressure based on the contradictions surfacing might make things more clear in this regard. Then again, the future is not fixed by any prediction.
As a counter-point and a contradiction I think you might agree that the near entirety of Jewish experience is about not having *sufficient space to grow* and has been, constantly, one of hitting the rocks (and being hit by them I should add). Malcolm Hay in 'Europe and the Jews' describes the near total dreariness and ordeal of Jewish experience in Europe. That is what *Exile* has always meant. Future? Have you ever heard of 'Jewish depression'? I would suppose that, historically, for a given Jew, that 'the future' was not something to have much confidence in! Though I cannot say with any absolute certainty I would suggest that America marked a great change in Jewish destiny. There is no period in history even slightly similar to it. And thus it becomes, in my excruciatingly humble opinion (surely you'd be the first to agree about my essential humbleness), enticingly and even seductively attractive that world Jewry now has a *state*.

I almost feel that I am revealing a secret but it is my understanding that Jews sharpened their will as a result of the European tragedy and resolved to do everything conceivable, and everything in their power, to reverse the tragic aspect of Jewish Fate. I mention this in the context of the chutzpah and the Machiavellian long-range planning that went into the construction of the 9/11 event. (I mention this, of course, without having certainty: it is an idea that circulates). But it stands to reason in my view. Therefor, it is in the Postwar that the formidable *will* of the Jew became even more focussed. Yet, simultaneously, Jewish identity is faltering. They marry out in alarming numbers. What's left is Israel with its *connecting threads*. Curious.
All the metaphorical implications are pretty strong, as you surely will agree with me. There's pure magic here embodied by such oddly contradicting self-construct. It might depend on ones colors if this looks like the white or black variety of magic.
What I just wrote, above, might add some understructure to the idea of *magic*. I think that one has to grasp and accept that all of our (human) magic is, especially in modernity, Black Magic. I think that we live within a Christian contradiction -- maybe it is universal? -- and a lens through which we view reality. Thus, 'the Devil's Kingdom' is, so far as it goes, an apt metaphysical description. One of the main things I got from the study of Medieval metaphysics (through Shakespeare studies initially) is how 'the Earth' as the dreg-zone of the entire Universe was understood. The point to which everything sunk.

That is, here, was the most dense concentration of universal gunk. The entire realm seethes in evil. Within the context of that view, the notion (the fact really) of the descent of the Godhead in the form of the Savior Jesus (the Logos from the Greek angle) had such meaning. Lost in such a fallen world, seeped in such dangerous dregs, the salvific beam of energy, of Grace, meant everything. In fact, I think it still can ... and does. But it is a question of *seeing*.

The Jews, let's be honest, have had and have been given through terrible twists of history, the role of Satan's able helper . . . I do not say this because I *believe it*, but then I did not invent any part or aspect of these mythic structures through which reality is viewed.
It's understood that you want some kind of "return" to solid and substantial values, or even a solid or substantial notion of self. As if there ever was one! That's what I call the all-too-human condition but you keep making such a big stink about it!
There is no other alternative, my curly-headed boy! It is not a question so much of *what was* but only of *what is*. Solid and substantive values do not have to be returned to, they are now and have always been. It's a question of isness.

Effectively, my glorious Dutch child, this is one of the principal lessons I have bequeathed to you, please don't burp up on your clean shirt, although it has taken 10 long and arduous years to get through your astonishingly hard Dutch skull.

But you are close, so close! I beam into your being the strength to cross! (The 19th of November is a day you will remember).

And all who smirk & scamper & linger & chatter here: receive my Unalloyed Blessings!

*Selah*
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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Santiago Odo wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:20 am that what astounds, and also alarms, about Jews is Jewish will. The will to hold fact to an idea through time. A tenaciousness that becomes religious. But the actual fact, is it not, that Jewish history is as much about not having and seeking a *nation* more than it is about having one.
The question I had in mind was really how "people" would develop first into "a people" as opposed to simply declaring it, which only then gives some meaning to nationhood and then at some (modern) time: statehood. As for the article from Sand, when he asserts that "no peoples existed before the modern era", he means that nations (and even less so states) are not based on any historical declarations of having "a people" but on other things. Then, I assert here, in retrospect we the people are imagined, as "imagined community" like someone like Benedict Anderson uses to describe a nation.
I almost feel that I am revealing a secret but it is my understanding that Jews sharpened their will as a result of the European tragedy and resolved to do everything conceivable, and everything in their power, to reverse the tragic aspect of Jewish Fate.
Not sure why you think it's a secret. Have you lived in such intellecual isolaton that such idea seems new or unheard of?

The general notion I think started in my preteens with the great fiction of Frank Herbert with his notion of the Fremen, hardened by rebellious desert life, always threatened by ethnic cleansing. He didn't make it up, it was discussed quite a bit in anthropology and social sciences. And then there's the analysis found often in political commentary on the Mujahideen and the Taliban where war is at tribal level ingrained in soul and life. Or like the Muslim Assassin cults of the past, inspiring Al Quada, who nobody ever accused to being cowardly despite killing innocents. In that context it never was a big step to see Jewish groups (as there is no unity or actual "inner" bond of any kind there in reality) could grew better under serious repression.

The same principle is used by governments in history to "unite" the people. Nothing unites more than creating an image of the enemy and especially the flow of blood of ones own, like the sacrificial. But that's another topic or perhaps not.

And is this forum teaching anything different? At least for all the inner struggles: "If one is not deliberately causing pain to the ego, both in oneself and in others". The ideas on developing strength and courage through actively causing disposition that one assumes will cause pain and stress is not strange to this forum. Many discussions have revolved around it. Hell, I even translated Nietzsche on the topic Mistreat the people, push them to the limits...

So yes, the will of the "Jew" is not different that way from the will of modern man, or modernity, which is based on complete falsification "of all nature, all naturalness, all reality" or like I'd prefer to phrase: through the simulacra. This understanding is the only way to start understanding the World Wars and the holocaust or even 9/11 as unavoidable reaction, not of idiots, evil men or misguided ideologies (that does not matter on this level of discussion) but in the symbolic reality where the metaphoric rules, it was about action and reaction. About reality being shut out and trying to flow back in. A process which is not done yet. For anyone understanding somewhat of the above ("energetically speaking") the election of Trump and all that comes out of that was never a surprise and really a must. And again, that has nothing to do about supporting any of the platform or campaign slogans.

Nietzsche writes on this: "The Jews are the strangest people in world history because, confronted with the question whether to be or not to be, they chose, with a perfectly uncanny deliberateness, to be at any price: this price was the radical falsification of all nature, all naturalness, all reality, of the whole inner world as well as the outer". source
the notion (the fact really) of the descent of the Godhead in the form of the Savior Jesus (the Logos from the Greek angle) had such meaning. Lost in such a fallen world, seeped in such dangerous dregs, the salvific beam of energy, of Grace, meant everything. In fact, I think it still can ... and does. But it is a question of *seeing*.
That story is retold in so many forms. The question is if you are holding on to form or can see the energies as they manifest.
Solid and substantive values do not have to be returned to, they are now and have always been. It's a question of isness.
No problem then? No fallen world to be saved from? Amen.
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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I am sorry to say that this prater cannot eventuate in much that is useful -- to me in any case, I appreciate the effort though. You seem to have put some time into it. One of the salient aspects of your *philosophy* is that it always leads to a kind of impasse, a weakening of the spirit through the overload of nouns (?) A philosophical hunchback.

You are, in your way, an *overburdened ass* on a circular path: as if you trudge along on a Möbius Strip toward a sort of False Dawn that is always coming and yet never comes. I do appreciate that you feel confident enough to externalize these neurotic notations with me, but even you seem to realize the pointlessness of this sort of ramble (?) Still, I have vowed to help you as I am able. I will try to dig something out of this nonsense and re-direct the conversation toward productive ends.

But in the meantime, an enquiry: Do you think of yourself as *smooth as silk* or as *rough and scratchy*, like a burlap potato sack?

Added Bonus:

Q. Why did the chicken walk the Möbius Strip?
A. To remain a chicken.

Q. If one is not deliberately causing pain to the ego, both in oneself and in others, then what is the good of one's life?
A. [Hysterically] Stop beating on my you sadist!
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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I propose to introduce a new element and to label it thus: "Zwarte Piet and the Dilbert Problem".
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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DvR wrote:This understanding is the only way to start understanding the World Wars and the holocaust or even 9/11 as unavoidable reaction, not of idiots, evil men or misguided ideologies (that does not matter on this level of discussion) but in the symbolic reality where the metaphoric rules, it was about action and reaction. About reality being shut out and trying to flow back in. A process which is not done yet. For anyone understanding somewhat of the above ("energetically speaking") the election of Trump and all that comes out of that was never a surprise and really a must. And again, that has nothing to do about supporting any of the platform or campaign slogans.
You are, I am sorry to say, a ridiculous, embarrassing, philosophical cockroach! You can make no statement at all as to the cause or the solution to any specific problem and, as it happens, your chatter about these issues is similar to a man who cannot stop jerking off in public. You should be arrested and jailed. At the very least fined for your elaborate and on-going display of perversion. This is simply an outrage!

In essence, and at the base, you are a man who has himself 'gone off the rails', and you are the victim of ideational forces which carry you along like a wine bottle cork down a fast-moving cataract. All the while you blather unendingly and self-glorifyingly, while masticating nonsense, and while simultaneously spitting up on your bib a facsimile of a blend of Baudrillard and Nietzsche.

It does not matter one iota, you fool! that you have translated some Nietzsche from the German.

What matters is what ultimately you serve. Just as this is so for all of us. It is the only relevant question.
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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Santiago Odo wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:23 am You are, I am sorry to say, a ridiculous, embarrassing, philosophical cockroach! You can make no statement at all as to the cause or the solution to any specific problem and, as it happens, your chatter about these issues is similar to a man who cannot stop jerking off in public. You should be arrested and jailed. At the very least fined for your elaborate and on-going display of perversion. This is simply an outrage!
Yes lets instead listen to your fascination with holocaust revisionism, Stormfront or pizza-gate proponent Nowicki in this thread.
a facsimile of a blend of Baudrillard and Nietzsche.
At least that's being achieved: European-American restlessness connecting with the hundredfold acquired Asian tranquility
What matters is what ultimately you serve. Just as this is so for all of us. It is the only relevant question.
It's only still a question because you cannot live with the answer, as it would rob you blind. Self-serving constructed meaning and purpose, a master to follow, a destiny to serve, because crawling is all you know, taking down those who dare to sit up.
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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Diebert wrote:It's only still a question because you cannot live with the answer, as it would rob you blind. Self-serving constructed meaning and purpose, a master to follow, a destiny to serve, because crawling is all you know, taking down those who dare to sit up.
But this is just it: you, Diebert, live the life of Dilbert in actual point of fact. An exhausted European in his cubicle. Your *sitting up* is a sham. You have not sat up! You don't know what it is. In fact, you map out lying down and cowering. And you are not alone: this is what we have all been forced to do. The thing now -- the only thing -- is to define, even in some small way, what *sitting up* will be and must be.

If there is to be consideration of 'White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius', there must be definitions about what this road is. As we look back over it, and as it has been shown here, there is no one who really and truly gained a sense of what *forward* is and what it should mean. This is clear. In the larger part what we have seen here has been a long list-making process giving evidence of the pathologies our time and era has bequeathed to us. And then there is you: the spidery chronicler of his own neurosis, a Nietzschen phantasy, a donkey overloaded with nouns.The thread you linked to shows the sycophantism that you ask for and receive.

The key here is certain terse phrases. They reveal. The long, convoluted high-brow paragraphs obscure:
"Self-serving constructed meaning and purpose, a master to follow, a destiny to serve".

You can define no purpose at all. Any purpose, within your neurotic disconnected soul must be 'self-constructed'. This explains why you do now and why you will constantly spin in the mud, getting nowhere. Your *philosophy* is your diary of your days in the wallow. This has nothing to do with 'sitting up' my snotty-nosed child! This is game and this is pose.

Pretty simple when it is stated in direct terms, don't you think? Truths are always like this. They depend on the time, certainly, but when stated they deflate the most glorious neurotic structures. Don't feel bad: this is what we are up against. This is what we have to defeat. And it is our duty to reject this and define a forward path, in one way or in another.

More as time permits.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Santiago Odo wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:23 pmThe thing now -- the only thing -- is to define, even in some small way, what *sitting up* will be and must be.
Lets just start to describe this process step by step and perhaps discuss it on some online forum. Surely that might help! Maybe start a separate section like a Santiago FORUM: Discussion of the nature of sit-ups and the path to standing up. You can be the moderator!
The thread you linked to shows the sycophantism that you ask for and receive.
It's a lot of detailed work in finding and translating the material using all my language capacities plus my experience with the material and its various meanings or scholarship around it. Some people clearly found use for it. Perhaps it's all new to you: working hard for your praise. You are perhaps a "free loader" that way: expecting praise and applause when not doing the hard work. Just some reading, linking material together, summarizing it then throw it to a wall somewhere. Well you do summarize pretty well if you have your reading glasses on! And all the ha-ha jest.
"Self-serving constructed meaning and purpose, a master to follow, a destiny to serve".

You can define no purpose at all. Any purpose, within your neurotic disconnected soul must be 'self-constructed'.
Please put on your glasses old man. Self-serving construct and not "self-constructed." Big difference for the more careful thinkers. For the ones sledge-hammering their way through sensitive material it probably does not matter much. You seem to live such a coarse inner life!
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Santiago Odo
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

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It's a lot of detailed work in finding and translating the material using all my language capacities plus my experience with the material and its various meanings or scholarship around it. Some people clearly found use for it. Perhaps it's all new to you: working hard for your praise. You are perhaps a "free loader" that way: expecting praise and applause when not doing the hard work. Just some reading, linking material together, summarizing it then throw it to a wall somewhere. Well you do summarize pretty well if you have your reading glasses on! And all the ha-ha jest.
Natürlich you do not consider here that your Dilbertian *philosophy* is essentially a spoof and a repeating series of semantic somersaults. Turning your own sordid notions around, you have offered here, over many years, a form of seduction. To the degree that you have self-seduced, is the degree that you seek to broaden your seductions. This connects to far larger things than to a Dilbertian ego and to the failings of our age. It is not *you* per se that I critique but rather the forces that have allowed such to come on the scene and with which we have all become complicit. The importance of the issues at hand far transcend a mild-mannered forum spider in his cubicle sending out Nietzsche translations!

True, this formula of mine requires the core assertion that you are largely off-track and, also natürlich, you could hardly agree with me. Otherwise the game would have to stop. Yet the assertion is important. The wrench is necessary. You are clever enough, and scheming enough, to manage to avoid being corralled, and you will perform as you always have on this point, but at this moment, Dear One, you really have no defense from where I sit. Once one peers into your game, one sees the Naked Philosopher as it were, and the unraveling of your mounting sophistries is from that point on easy.
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Santiago Odo
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Post by Santiago Odo »

Many people have dealt with the question but in less grandiose terms. And in the end the most sound answer they came up with so far revolved around promoting rationality, courage, self-honesty, inquiry, reason, perhaps even "masculine values" when they embody those in terms of willingness to sacrifice and endurance.

The reason that answer shows up is because there's no "magical" attribute underlying any rise of civilization, thought, language and ultimately wisdom. It's based on the work of people who, individually, developed a relationship with what has been called the "infinite" and thus genius as function of consciousness and not of intellect or language. From that well, many things arise, some beauty, some horror, in terms of what people --often the ones picking up the crumbs under the table-- ended up doing. This forum did the sane thing: encouraging philosophical development of person-hood to a masculine level, reason and the willingness to struggle. Why is that drive not enough? What kind of "magic" do you suppose is missing here?
What you speak to here, and your relation to it ['promoting rationality, courage, self-honesty, inquiry, reason, perhaps even "masculine values" when they embody those in terms of willingness to sacrifice and endurance'], came about because of a defined understanding of metaphysics and also of transcendent value. That is our background and our backdrop. In the absence of those, in the absence of a viable relationship with the conscious transcendent, when it becomes impossible to define what is being talked about because it is no longer felt to be real, this set of values that you genuinely seem to appreciate and elevate, or give lip-service to, ceases to be perceived. It begins to fade. And when it has ceased being perceived, it is forgotten. The reason for that entire group no longer has sound reason supporting it. For whatever would one require sacrifice and endurance for? These imply a value served and an awareness of reasons to strive.

There is indeed a magical attribute underlying the rise -- the very existence of -- our own civilization. But notice that you have no knowledge that this is so. For you, it genuinely did not ever exist and does not exist now. Or it exists as a noun between quotation marks. For this reason I have often said that you are a man who is a product of the *light* (as it were) who recedes into shadows. You cannot any longer perceive your origin, and you define your death within some trite, borrowed postmodernistic café philosophy. It is a life raft for a dying soul perhaps. In a macabre way you do carry on like Hunter Gracchus:
“I have no intentions,” said the hunter with a smile and, to make up for his mocking tone, laid a hand on the burgomaster’s knee. “I am here. I don’t know any more than that. There’s nothing more I can do. My boat is without a helm—it journeys with the wind which blows in the deepest regions of death.
You seem to grasp the effect of sound relationship to the conscious transcendent, and for you this is real enough I suppose insofar as your recognize its products, but you can only get as close as to refer to it as the 'infinite' in quotes. That means effectively it is unreal for you. Afterall, the infinite is more or less a mathematical term in modern parlance. You refer back to the hollowed out shell that once lived. Even the term 'genius' is meaningless. Your *genius* is like you, an egomaniac. In fact you cannot even define *genius* and have no idea what this mysterious person serves nor why. (But do weave me some fantastic wordsalad on the topic when you feel inspired!)

This forum did a thing, I grant you that. It reacted to the rather sharp understanding that the higher intelligence of man, and the core value of our civilization, faced extinction. It noticed all the detritus of loss and the over-swamping by the inane. It recognized, in its way, how threatening these eventualities are to man and to Occidental man. But it did not get even close to the core where a profound reanimation and reconstitution or regrouping would become possible. It merely came somewhat near the surface. And this is the reason, I think, why those fellows seem to have fallen away from their own project. This happened because of basic immaturity.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Santiago Odo wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:57 amTurning your own sordid notions around, you have offered here, over many years, a form of seduction. To the degree that you have self-seduced, is the degree that you seek to broaden your seductions.
There are valid perspectives possible, within a very specific context and definition, in which what you say here is not only true but generally true, for the workings of mind or communications. And if you had read for example Baudrillard's take on seduction versus power, like in his book Seduction (fulltext PDF) and applied that kind of framework, it would even be more true! But speaking a truth is not the hard part, perhaps we always do. But realizing that one is, firstly, and then how it functions and the reach of its implication and application, that would be more like, well, wisdom.
I critique [...] the forces that have allowed such to come on the scene and with which we have all become complicit.
Yeah, but aren't' we all aiming there? So that's kind of trivially true. But admittedly, you often make it sound so much better!
Dear One, you really have no defense from where I sit. Once one peers into your game, one sees the Naked Philosopher as it were, and the unraveling of your mounting sophistries is from that point on easy.
Of course, from where you sit, you see your own universe and the kaleidoscopic lamp of your mind lighting it up and casting its shadows. You don't even have the means to build a bridge to any other private reality. But it's not even needed, just stop being frustrated about it and understand how alone you are, with your own projections. You already know that, when not distracted.
Santiago Odo wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:31 am[...] when it becomes impossible to define what is being talked about because it is no longer felt to be real, this set of values that you genuinely seem to appreciate and elevate, or give lip-service to, ceases to be perceived. It begins to fade.
But it's here about you struggling with the real, defining it, coming to terms with existence, with absolutes like change, death, the lack or transience of meaning or self and so on. Or at least that's the message I keep getting in your particular case. It's actually very easy to connect with others on these matters. It's a universal struggle.
There is indeed a magical attribute underlying the rise -- the very existence of -- our own civilization.
Of course you say that. In older discussions, when cornered sufficiently, you always ended up invoking magic or magical thought. In the mean time, your own final solutions remain entirely unclear and ambiguous. Just maintaining the same tired pseudo-rebellious conversations, seems the closest thing to it.
This forum did a thing, I grant you that. [..] But it did not get even close to the core where a profound reanimation and reconstitution or regrouping would become possible.
Funny coming from the man without any forum, blog, book, sites or audiences while forcefully kicked out of many attempted dialogs because of some inability at your end to convey anything, not even a friendly, mature demeanor or patience.

Time for a reality check perhaps, old dog. You have the energy and brains but not the balls, the gravity yet to dig into yourself.
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Re: White men, European genetics, masculinity and genius

Post by Santiago Odo »

Your first manoeuvre is more or less always the same: obscure, shift, divert.

Again, once one sees through these elaborate games and chess-moves, conducted through a simple series of established mechanisms, the whole sham falls to pieces. Then, you use this whole diversionary game to pretend to wisdom. Have fun, m'boy!
...your own final solutions remain entirely unclear and ambiguous.
Yeah, well, one must proceed slowly! And you must admit that I am talking to group of hard-headed idiots married to their neuroses! But, that is part of my discourse: that is who we are. This means that all the problems I notice, here and anywhere, are problems and issues I share. How could it be otherwise?

To proceed slowly and carefully is what I have come to. I told you, a dozen times, that everything that *you* and *they* reject is precisely the zone and the area requiring focus. This became a 'secret key'.

This *turning around* is not easy! I always said 'turn the lens of examination around' and, of course! I include myself in that necessary project.

I place myself in a cultural and social context though. The turnaround is something that will take a number of generations. The decadence, to use one word, is what we all have come through. Our object is -- it must be -- to come to a newer, revised set of definitions and to yoke ourself to them as necessities.

The games -- and in your case the poses -- have to stop though. Spider can retreat into his labyrinth or he can come to the surface and face the music.
...anything, not even a friendly, mature demeanor or patience.
[Clears throat, lower lip quivers]

"I resolve to be a better, a more friendly and also mature forum-poster from this moment on! I will make this my New Year's resolution! Please, oh please! accept me and love me!"

Not sure what to do with:
If one is not deliberately causing pain to the ego, both in oneself and in others, then what is the good of one's life? One might as well not exist at all. It is by challenging and overturning our cosy assumptions, habitual thought-processes, psychological refuges and mental blocks that our minds can be opened up . . .
Oh, and I'll leave you with Baudrillard! If that works for you, have at it.
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