Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Discussion of science, technology, politics, and other topics that aren't strictly philosophical.
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Leyla Shen
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Leyla Shen » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:53 pm

Israel's whole civic society "must have a Jewish identity", which is by definition no abstract, defying the historical and current realities of the place.
Well, I would have thought that still a part of the same contradiction; naturally, its extreme expression. No?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:04 pm

Leyla Shen wrote:
Israel's whole civic society "must have a Jewish identity", which is by definition no abstract, defying the historical and current realities of the place.
Well, I would have thought that still a part of the same contradiction; naturally, its extreme expression. No?
Yeah, echoes of this can be found all over the West: all the talk about some established Judeo-Christian or national identity and values, something that needs to be preserved against *unknown* (but often: alien economical systems, immigration, Islam and other religions and traditions, changing norms and values, "commercialization", blacks in power, etc). The reality is that it's all happening caused by the reality of an open-ended system.

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Leyla Shen
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Leyla Shen » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:55 pm

The reality is that it's all happening caused by the reality of an open-ended system.
Exactly.

I am presently involved elsewhere in an interesting debate on the relevance of history and culture to politics (you know, the French and American Revolutions, the Bill of Rights, and so forth). My opponent proposes that there are no such connections! It MUST be denied if certain zones of "political" conflict are to be remedied! Turns out the reasoning is that denying actual history - the relevance of the past and, therefore, causality itself - is the only way forward. Politics (life as a citizen), you see, has no relationship to culture (civil society). The two are, it seems, mutually exclusive......

In his dreams. Do you know that he reduced the whole French Revolution (and I mean from its beginnings to the end of Napoleon) down to the Reign of Terror to make his point? It was like, "What 'people.' Who are 'the people'?" ! Yet, it is the politicised citizen who will make all the difference. Go figure.

Man, apparently, has managed to magically abstract himself from himself to just such a marked degree. Can you believe it? Ye gods!

As soon as I get myself up off the proverbial floor and reconfigure in order to cope with data, I'll pick that one back up with a vengeance.
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Blair
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Blair » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:19 pm

Leyla you politically and sociologically aware sexual beast you, show the rest of the girls here how it's done!

Abstract to abstract itself, trace back through history, through bloodletting, through castration, circumcision and see how man emasculated itself all for the sake of wanting to advance to where?
The precum taints the lips of a hungry vagina anyhows, a new boy is born from such careless and dainty play of fluid.

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Leyla Shen
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Leyla Shen » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:32 am

Aside from all the hot and sweaty sex, there's really so much I have to catch up on in this thread. Stuff that goes waaaay back to VD!
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Leyla Shen » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:33 am

...and his stupid chickens, as I recall it.
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Tomas
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Survival of the fittest, an interview with Benny Morris

Post by Tomas » Sat May 29, 2010 4:56 am

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from the site, PalestineRemembered.com

Survival of the fittest, an interview with Benny Morris

by Ari Shavat

Benny Morris was always a Zionist

Whereas citizen Morris turned out to be a not completely snow-white dove, historian Morris continued to work on the Hebrew translation of his massive work "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001," which was written in the old, peace-pursuing style.

Rape, massacre, transfer >> http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre ... y1117.html

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Tomas
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How We Became the Prisoners Of Islam

Post by Tomas » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:28 am

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How We Became the Prisoners Of Islam

The Romans started out using barbarians in their armies, until eventually the barbarians became their emperors. So too the Ottoman Empire began by using non-Muslims as Janissaries in their armies, only to have them nearly take over. Similarly there was a time when we tried to use Muslim countries as proxies in our wars. Today Muslims use us as proxies in their wars.

And how it got this way is very simple. >> http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/23953

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Tomas
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The New Wannabe Ottomans

Post by Tomas » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:15 am

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The New Wannabe Ottomans

The Cold War is over. Turkey no longer guards the southeastern flank of Europe from the advance of Soviet communism, lessening its importance within NATO. Its Anatolian Muslim population grows, while more secular European and Aegian Turks have lost influence. Turkey senses a growing distance between Tel Aviv and Washington, and thus an opportunity to step into the gulf to unite Muslims against Israel and win influence in the Arab world.

If Erdogan is intent on a suicidal reinvention of Turkey into a pale imitation of Ottoman hegemony, we can at least take steps to ensure that it will be his mess -- and none of our own.

Full Story >> http://townhall.com/columnists/VictorDa ... e_ottomans

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Talking Ass
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Talking Ass » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:24 am

Flotilla Choir sets the record straight.

The Three Terrors

Why do I have to post this stuff? What's the matter with you people?!?
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Talking Ass » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:54 pm

Ooooh, I get it: The Silent Treatment!

Take ... THAT!
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:41 pm

For the record, I'll never click any image or video link (or even plain URL) at this forum without any descriptive indication where it's about and why it would be noteworthy to see. Did I miss something?

Really?

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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Talking Ass » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:27 pm

Who gives a flying fuck what you click or don't click?

;-)

And yes and yes....
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:18 am

Last edited by Diebert van Rhijn on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Talking Ass
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Talking Ass » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:05 am

The link appears to be broken.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Conservationist » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:09 am

Leyla Shen wrote:The problem with Jews is religion is conflated with supposed race and, on top of that, an inseparable and essential part of their identity.
Why is this a problem?

They're a nation.

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Sympathy for the Turkish devil

Post by Tomas » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:14 am

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Sympathy for the Turkish devil

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogen is behaving dreadfully, to the point that a group of retired senior Turkish diplomats denounced him for "neo-Ottomanism". But Turkey has not moved closer to Iran, except in tactical diplomatic terms. The problem is more subtle: America's blunders in Iraq gave Iran the chance to become a regional hegemon, and Turkey must vie with Iran for the role as a matter of self-preservation.

Turkey is held together by weak glue >> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LF29Ak01.html
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:40 am

Conservationist wrote:They're a nation.
Debatable. First of all the amount of dependency their actual existence as a nation has on the goodwill and support of the US on the international stage is countering any notion of sovereignty and independence any nation should possess. Secondly, the Arab and Jewish civilians inside their nation hardly share any customs, origins, history or language. And last decades they had time to work on that but instead the gap widened. They are only legally recognized to be a nation but wishing alone and flooding them with support doesn't make them more than some colonial pet-project.

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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Talking Ass » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:07 am

As an expert sophist, one with smooth, eristic skill, I have no doubt you could argue nationhood out from under the Jews. But they have been a 'nation' in their own self-concept for a long long time. And they are a nation now, by their own choice, through their own decision, which does not depend on your agreement or disagreement. But, if you can yourself *see* Israel as only a 'colonial project', and if you can work out your agreements with other people, and if you succeed in selling your point of view to a wide enough group of people, you will have your role as an actor in history. Just one little drop, it's true, but many drops together can create a wave. Your goal, I gather, is to modify Israel or to see Israel modified to suit your standard of what a nation should be, according to you, but everything about this historical peculiarity you disregard or are contemptful of. If you can't get that modification, you will contribute morally if not materially to those forces now in motion that are working to harm or destroy Israel. To say this is to 'tell the truth' about what really is happening in the world right now. There are 'texts' and then there are 'subtexts'. You have a great deal to do with 'subtexts'.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Dan Rowden » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:53 am

I am a nation unto myself. I am because I declare it so. Disagree all you want - God is on my side, because, well, he told me to declare it and who am I to argue with He who can crush my balls for eternity.

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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Talking Ass » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:10 am

This is an abominable use of 'reasoning' skills, Dan. Is this only a joke? Like it or not, Jews have been 'a nation' and a people unified by an Idea, for a long, long time. (Modern) Israel is an extention and a continuation of that.
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Tomas
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the fall of the Alex's to Today

Post by Tomas » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:48 am

Talking Ass wrote:This is an abominable use of 'reasoning' skills, Dan. Is this only a joke? Like it or not, Jews have been 'a nation' and a people unified by an Idea, for a long, long time. (Modern) Israel is an extention and a continuation of that.
'Modern' Israel is an ongoing creative venture of the United Nations.

Secondly, Judah is but one tribe of Israel.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Conservationist » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:31 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:First of all the amount of dependency their actual existence as a nation has on the goodwill and support of the US on the international stage is countering any notion of sovereignty and independence any nation should possess.
Nation, not nation-state:

http://www.pan-nationalism.org/

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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:38 pm

Conservationist wrote:Nation, not nation-state
If you'd read the context of the lines you quoted, it was a discussion about Israel with nation in its meaning as nation-state, and nationalism, the Palestine nation, past and present, etc.

As for your link, it only defies your own point with: "the nation is formed of the indigenous people to an area".

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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:28 am

Israelis embrace one-state solution from unexpected direction
Recently, proposals to grant Israeli citizenship to Palestinians in the West Bank, including the right to vote for the Knesset, have emerged from a surprising direction: right-wing stalwarts such as Knesset speaker Reuven Rivlin, and former defense minister Moshe Arens, both from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party. Even more surprising, the idea has been pushed by prominent activists among Israel's West Bank settler movement... Their visions still fall far short of what any Palestinian advocate of a single state would consider to be just: the Israeli proposals insist on maintaining the state's character -- at least symbolically -- as a "Jewish state," exclude the Gaza Strip, and do not address the rights of Palestinian refugees.
Some on the Israeli right now recognize what Israeli geographer Meron Benvenisti has said for years: historic Palestine is already a "de facto binational state," unpartionable except at a cost neither Israelis nor Palestinians are willing to pay.
Given these realities, "The worst solution ... is apparently the right one: a binational state, full annexation, full citizenship" in the words of settler activist and former Netanyahu aide Uri Elitzur.

This awakening can be likened to what happened among South African whites in the 1980s. By that time it had become clear that the white minority government's effort to "solve" the problem of black disenfranchisement by creating nominally independent homelands -- bantustans -- had failed. Pressure was mounting from internal resistance and the international campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions.

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