Movies

Discussion of science, technology, politics, and other topics that aren't strictly philosophical.
ComfortablyNumb
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Movies

Post by ComfortablyNumb » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:21 am

Someone recommend me some good movies to watch. I prefer psychological thrillers.

Some ive watched lately:

Donnie Darko
Man From Earth
Requiem of A Dream
Memento
Psycho
The Machinist
Girl with the dragon tattoo

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Movies

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:13 am

Some of those I liked a lot. Perhaps you'd like one of these (just a random grab in my mind):

Pi
The Game
The Quiet Earth
Dark Skies
The Shining
Mulholland Drive
Eyes Wide Shut
The Number 23
No Country for Old Men
The Talented Mr. Ripley
The I Inside
The 4th Floor
13th Floor
Solaris

iamforhereithink
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Re: Movies

Post by iamforhereithink » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:36 am

I will state that i believe Eyes Wide Shut is one of the most brilliant films because it portrays fantastically a conventional consciously rational story about a doctors relationship with his wife , his career and their seemingly perfect existence which is then shown to come apart when certain truths , desires , suspicions are played out, which also breaks into the secret occult world of the aristocratic elite , dreams, fantasies , truth, lies begin to impose their presence with grave consequences for that perfect lifestyle , stanley kubrick is somehow able to film a timeline which includes the unveiling of so much esoteric information about human psychology and motive that i don't believe the majority of viewers have quite got the ability to digest, its a film that will improve with ones own self-knowledge and wisdom of existence

Films i also recommend these personal favourites which include impressive illustrations of important psychological states for me are ………

Harvey - with James Stewart , playing a man with an encoded high intelligence level that affects people at the subjective level
The Gambler - James Caan portrays the high risk gambler that believes his will can affect reality
Thief - James caan plays a professional thief with high principles of his individual rights that will sell his labour on his terms but will not sell out his soul to anyone including the mafia with devastating results
Rollerball - James Caan plays an individual hero in a dystopian collectivised corporate controlled future earth … just like todays (: he doest like being told what to do by big brother , the film illustrates very well how elite corporate power operates at the higher level
Forbidden Planet - Sci fi excellent portrayal of the id component in consciousness which when fuelled will express itself in manifest form
My Dinner with Andre - The dynamic consciousness has a talk with the static consciousness at dinner about existence in general and how to live

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Cahoot
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Re: Movies

Post by Cahoot » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:39 am

iamforhereithink wrote: Harvey - with James Stewart , playing a man with an encoded high intelligence level that affects people at the subjective level
I have to say, this is a good selection. :)

“What can I do for you?”
“What did you have in mind?”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ObTndDtupA

*

The Fifth Element … Brilliantly orders the causal world into one fantastic peak moment that holds the meaning of everything. Elemental.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Movies

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:32 am

Cahoot wrote:The Fifth Element … Brilliantly orders the causal world into one fantastic peak moment that holds the meaning of everything. Elemental.
But that element turned out to be the superficial supermodel chick right? Right. The best things about the movie for me were those large aliens in their clunky panzer suits and drip ship.

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Cahoot
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Re: Movies

Post by Cahoot » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:45 am

It works on that level too, if that’s where you’re at. It’s truly a genius work of art.

“Time not important, only life important.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SJnReLKQvM

To be beyond time is to be beyond causation.
To be beyond causation is to be beyond creating new attachments,
though one gains a depth of knowledge from the experiences of witnessing,
while living, the inevitable unfolding consequences of past actions.

*

Glengarry GlenRoss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AB-iLaEisU

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Movies

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:20 am

Cahoot wrote:It’s truly a genius work of art.

“Time not important, only life important.”
If that's where you're at:... "mooman"...

Movies are by definition the antithesis of truth, to the degree that they're based on languages of imagery and emotion. Any spoken sentence in most of the fictional movies is basically subversion unless it's meant ironic. And yet truth comes out in some ways of course. The fifth element girl in the movie could perhaps be seen as distorted image of "Sophia" but then pictured as vapid chick with really little to say or do, childish in her cow-like and imaginary existence, now paired with Bruce Willis, the movie version of the masculine: active, knowing, well rounded, courageous and completely comfortable, in tune with his fate. It's like contrasting actual wisdom with ignorance and let them work in a tandem. He's drawn to her and he bestows his overbearing gifts on her and her clueless quest. The movie ends when Bruce Willis (wisdom) finally permeates the imaginary (ignorance) portrayed as courtship. Only this turns the Darkness (the real face of ignorance) around. The elements and the chick would disappear with the threat of the cloud, if the movie would be perfect.

It's possible the movie resonates even when this view above would be rejected and the shallow lines of non-wisdom would be embraced instead. That's the power of movies.

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Cahoot
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Re: Movies

Post by Cahoot » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:15 am

That’s right … your favorite story of Nietzsche and his beloved cow. How to think like a cow. Genius. ;)

Infomertial of the future

“Never be ashamed of who you are,” in the barnyard of cows and chicks.

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Cahoot
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Re: Movies

Post by Cahoot » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:12 am


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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Movies

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:39 pm

Sorry Cahoot, I never clicked on any video or nondescript link on this side of the forum and I'm not going to start now. But like you I loved the movie but I don't think you got its meaning. Perhaps like you love this forum without understanding its purpose or Buddhism without getting its core ideas?

But lets get back to the Fifth Element as I forgot to mention a few things that might have escaped your attention. The "savior" element arrives and materializes as a woman called ""Leeloo" which refers to the Hindu "Leela" which means play of the gods, trickster, hiding behind a show of magic and pretense. The illusion or ignorance factor is the idea that she's some form of reality so as incarnated woman she's plain ignorance about the world and her own nature ("Woman" indeed). In the movie she arrives together with the Great Evil, a darkness reminiscence of the Nothing in The Neverending Story. They arrive in a pair as they are connected: reality becoming object world always will have decadence and nihilism in its wake, the "great destroyer". Notice here the reversal as the movie tries to suggest the Fifth Element is a fix for the evil. But that kind of thinking is for babies while does create the dramatic effect. Anyway she turns out to be not a savior.

The name of Korben Dallas points to "spirit and earth" if you'd care to look it up. He's the human protagonist of the story and only his love "interest" activates any care in Leeloo to release the "light" and they both "die" or "unite". Dallas dies as heroes do and she must disappear in him as she's now known while the evil cloud of nothing is rendered inactive. At the end of the movie they both get reborn through the healing tanks, the cycle of life, probably because it's Hollywood after and above all.

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Cahoot
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Re: Movies

Post by Cahoot » Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:40 pm

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:The best things about the movie for me were those large aliens in their clunky panzer suits and drip ship.
“Time not important, only life important.”
- large alien in clunky panzer suit

This, rather than the bovine waddle, or the pretty colors, or the funny faces, or wandering in a miasma of ego, is the intellectual relevance from your favorite part of The Fifth Element movie.

Thus the relevant inquiry, pertaining to the quote, is why?

Likewise, acting like a little bitch is irrelevant to the forum, and Buddhism.

*

The youtube link that you will enjoy is titled:

Glengarry Glen Ross speech
The address is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kZg_ALxEz0
The running time is 7:09 (to verify that you have the right link.)

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Movies

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:17 pm

Cahoot wrote:
The best things about the movie for me were those large aliens in their clunky panzer suits and drip ship.
“Time not important, only life important.”
- large alien in clunky panzer suit

This, rather than the bovine waddle, or the pretty colors, or the funny faces, or wandering in a miasma of ego, is the relevance from your favorite part.

Thus the relevant inquiry, pertaining to the quote, is why?
Okay, here's the thing. The Aliens are intricate part of the concocted drama: a great Annihilation is approaching (perpetrator) and Earth with all its living meanings needs to be saved (victim) by an imaginary idealized savior alien device (redeemer). This is the drama of the movie as the movie needs a drama. But when looking deeper into the sequence you'd see that all main participants of the drama (unstoppable Evil & Saving Grace) all appear simultaneously out of the unexplained depth of space. And then the only "end" to the threat becomes voiding the drama itself. The Leeloo bitch certainly has to desire left to save anyone when it's realized her only meaning is supplied by Dallas, the meaning giver. Only her destruction "saves".

The "Light" at the End means what light always means: knowledge and death. Only knowledge ends ignorance and resolves the drama. But it's also a form of death, not any violent form of death like murder or suicide but another "true" kind of death since ignorance would just be reborn. Many similar themed movies end with death and resolution: knowledge complete. The End.

As for the remarks of the aliens in clunky suits: they are clumsy, maladapted, out of this world aliens in all their amazing disguises, not unlike humans. If you want to soak up their "wisdom" then it says something about your own alienation perhaps?
Likewise, acting like a little bitch is irrelevant to the forum, and Buddhism.
Not when "bitch" would be the perfect description of ignorant and unconscious behavior being wrapped up like its opposite. Then it becomes illustrative and relevant especially on this forum and in Buddhist environments which are pretty much bitch magnets.

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Cahoot
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Re: Movies

Post by Cahoot » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:05 pm

“Time not important, only life important.”
- large alien in clunky panzer suit

As for the remarks of the aliens in clunky suits: they are clumsy, maladapted, out of this world aliens in all their amazing disguises, not unlike humans. If you want to soak up their "wisdom" then it says something about your own alienation perhaps?
Alien indeed.

Number of Abortions - Abortion Counters
http://www.numberofabortions.com/

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Cahoot
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Re: Movies

Post by Cahoot » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:50 pm

Cahoot wrote:
iamforhereithink wrote: Harvey - with James Stewart , playing a man with an encoded high intelligence level that affects people at the subjective level
I have to say, this is a good selection. :)

“What can I do for you?”
“What did you have in mind?”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ObTndDtupA

*

The Fifth Element … Brilliantly orders the causal world into one fantastic peak moment that holds the meaning of everything. Elemental.
The youtube link is titled:

What is a Pooka
The address is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ObTndDtupA

Running time: 1:38

(Edited for link.)

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Cahoot
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Re: Movies

Post by Cahoot » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:53 pm

Cahoot wrote:It works on that level too, if that’s where you’re at. It’s truly a genius work of art.

“Time not important, only life important.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SJnReLKQvM

To be beyond time is to be beyond causation.
To be beyond causation is to be beyond creating new attachments,
though one gains a depth of knowledge from the experiences of witnessing,
while living, the inevitable unfolding consequences of past actions.
The youtube link is titled:

life-is-important
The address is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SJnReLKQvM

Running time: 0:29

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Cahoot
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Re: Movies

Post by Cahoot » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:15 am

The youtube link is titled:

The Matrix: Neo meets Trinity (HD)
The address is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXeF1rMkpQw
Running time: 2:24

“I know why you're here, Neo. I know what you've been doing. I know why you hardly sleep, why you live alone, and why night after night, you sit at your computer. You're looking for him. I know because I was once looking for the same thing. And when he found me, he told me I wasn't really looking for him. I was looking for an answer. It's the question that drives us, Neo. It's the question that brought you here. You know the question, just as I did.”

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Movies

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:58 pm

The Matrix movies are based on three books according to the main people involved: Simulation and Simulacra from Baudrillard (social theory), Out of Control from Kevin Kelly (neo-biology & futurism) and Introducing Evolutionary Psychology by Dylan Evans. Philosophically it seems closest to P.K. Dick's unfinished "Exegesis", a gnostic leaning complex philosophical work. This is important for understanding some of the religious and magical imagery of the movie as entertainment piece. In some ways the movie is "fucking" with a lot of classical symbolism and concepts.

In the end the movies are great as showcase of evolving film technology and especially the first part described perfectly the great philosophical question about what is reality, are we living in a dream and is there even someone to "wake up" to or is that just another determined program? The movies never go further than that question and really, how to answer it without creating another trap? It also seems to me that the creators lost their focus while making the second and third movie. It became too much like a comic book coming to life containing not much more than comic book philosophy when it came to answering the questions raised in the first masterpiece. Some masterpieces are then perhaps, accidental?

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Cahoot
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Re: Movies

Post by Cahoot » Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:04 am

Agreed. A brilliant masterpiece of art, and the second two are real clunkers.

Those in the know say that the Bhagavad Gita was also a big influence. Lana Wachowski could verify that easily enough, if someone has asked.

Inevitable rather than accidental, I would say.

Plus: powerful dialogue.

Example:
The Matrix (1999) - The Pill scene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ1_IbFFbzA
“Let me give you one piece of advice. Be honest.”

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Movies

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:13 am

Cahoot wrote:Those in the know say that the Bhagavad Gita was also a big influence. Lana Wachowski could verify that easily enough, if someone has asked.
He's too busy creating his own reality in his SM dungeon with the dominatrix he fell in torturous love with. No kidding! Some say the distractions caused the clunkers of part two and three.

The Gita influence must have come mainly through P.K. Dick, no doubt about it. And lots of other movie dialogs and situations can be traced back to his writings and not just the novels. Also I remember seeing a very similar pill choice scene in the original Total Recall movie ( P.K. Dick story based but it does appear in his Exegesis too as concept). There a red pill was offered to return to the "real world" which in fact wasn't exactly that. Although that's another debate.

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Cahoot
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Re: Movies

Post by Cahoot » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:12 am

Inherit the Wind - The Age of Rocks scene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Kdc0LLSW8

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Urizen
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Re: Movies

Post by Urizen » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:20 pm

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:The Matrix movies are based on three books according to the main people involved: Simulation and Simulacra from Baudrillard (social theory), Out of Control from Kevin Kelly (neo-biology & futurism) and Introducing Evolutionary Psychology by Dylan Evans. Philosophically it seems closest to P.K. Dick's unfinished "Exegesis", a gnostic leaning complex philosophical work. This is important for understanding some of the religious and magical imagery of the movie as entertainment piece. In some ways the movie is "fucking" with a lot of classical symbolism and concepts.

In the end the movies are great as showcase of evolving film technology and especially the first part described perfectly the great philosophical question about what is reality, are we living in a dream and is there even someone to "wake up" to or is that just another determined program? The movies never go further than that question and really, how to answer it without creating another trap? It also seems to me that the creators lost their focus while making the second and third movie. It became too much like a comic book coming to life containing not much more than comic book philosophy when it came to answering the questions raised in the first masterpiece. Some masterpieces are then perhaps, accidental?

The Matrix does more than ask questions about reality; it presents an inversion of the truth. Neo awakens from the 'dream,' and finds himself 'reborn' into some terrestrial Hell. He loses his 'virtual' body or soul, and discovers his 'true' self, which is a physical body; his 'Eden' is a dead, metallic world. This is just the opposite of Enlightenment, which is an awakening from the physical simulacrum into the Divine Reality. There is nothing 'profound' or spiritually 'high' about the film.

What Neo does not know (nor do the writers of the film know), is that he is pure simulation; he does not have any physical correlate to his virtual body. He is the crestion of demented scientists performing a cruel experiment on consciousness by creating a simulation of it inside of a virtual environment. Neo is not a human being, but a simulation of one. A demon in a machine. Fate played a sick joke on him.

PKD's Exegesis is an interesting read, but a lot of the ideas are distinctly reminiscent of the sort of thoughts one gets during LSD trips and experiences of amphetamine psychosis. There is truth in it, and he reaches much higher than most people working outside of a religious tradition, but it is unfortunately distorted. Like Dr. Faust before him, PKD 'broke' into the spiritual plane using the 'black magic' of drugs; while effective to some extent, it is like tearing holes into the mind in order to see beyond the mind. Any higher reality is detected through a faulty instrument, and at the risk of destroying the soul.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Movies

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:48 pm

Urizen wrote:The Matrix does more than ask questions about reality; it presents an inversion of the truth. Neo awakens from the 'dream,' and finds himself 'reborn' into some terrestrial Hell. He loses his 'virtual' body or soul, and discovers his 'true' self, which is a physical body; his 'Eden' is a dead, metallic world. This is just the opposite of Enlightenment, which is an awakening from the physical simulacrum into the Divine Reality. There is nothing 'profound' or spiritually 'high' about the film.
I agree that the metallic, underground physicality is mistakingly presented as the "real" world to wake up to, at least in the eyes of Morpheus. But the movie does not present "Zion" as solution or liberation. It's in itself a mechanical bubble under siege. It's perhaps the biological, like a play on Asimov's "Fantastic Voyage". I'm quite sure the purpose of the movie was not to present that as final solution or liberation, although one could argue if people are not suppressing at times their physical roots and bindings to their own peril (disconnect, alienation). In part three Neo escapes to the machine world in the clouds, a way more astral, organized plane and enters the Matrix again to demolish "ego" or Mr. Smith and create some status quo between machines (spirit) and Zion (earth). This is where the inversion lies of the movie: the machines and programs are higher manifestations overall, further evolved and generally not lower than human beings.

I agree that Neo is not a human being, he was designed as program, like Smith, to maintain the virtual world as savior. But he could exist in the lower realm just as well as in the higher realms (machine world) which would make him an avatar, another "descent of Vishnu", manifesting through his code. It's hinted at that it played out many times before in various "realities" and incarnations of the Matrix in the scene with the Architect.

The movie's philosophical canvas is a bit larger than it appears at first glance but lets not forget the main focus is visual spectacle and advancement of cinematography. Which remains highly ironic!
Any higher reality is detected through a faulty instrument, and at the risk of destroying the soul.
Which PKD was highly aware of with his "scanner darkly". But show me first an instrument that is not faulty somehow! I highly doubt the early drug experiments were such an important factor for Dick's journeys. Perhaps his "existential schizophrenia" was? The fact that venturing into these topics "crack" open the mind does not mean it's always drugs just because the experiences can be so similar. It's not like one can be really prepared for what happens. What it does show is the limitations we have as human being with our attachments and our particular wiring.

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Russell Parr
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Re: Movies

Post by Russell Parr » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:05 am

Just to add a few of my own favorites not yet mentioned:

V for Vendetta (2006) - created by the makers of the Matrix movies. As an American this one holds a special place in my heart as it demonstrates how far people will allow their government to control them under the illusory blanket of safety and security, plus the perversions of religiousness.

Revolver (2005) - great movie that demonstrates the inner battles between the liberated self and the ego, as well as the corruption that comes with money and prestige.

Fight Club (1999) - similar to Revolver, though the end is shit. Also great commentary on conformity and herd mentality.

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Re: Movies

Post by SeekerOfWisdom » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:28 pm

Yeah if only the Matrix stopped after #1.

Although a lot of people over-analyse such movies and end up getting entangled with delusional ideas about reality, it is something that promotes people to think about reality and its nature , attracting a large number of viewers through the great visual/action scenes. I remember that being my favorite movie when I was about 8 years old, I must have watched it up to 50 times, if only someone did something similar with a gun-wielding Buddha.. kidding of course.

What I found odd later on was how the directors made it so neo could effect "the real world" with his abilities. Which seems to re-iterate the "there is no spoon" idea with what is supposed to be the concrete reality. To me that suggests the directors were trying to portray the 'dream-world' idea, not just for the program part of it. Though of course its highly likely that they just wanted a more interesting plot.


An interesting film related to Buddhism is "Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter and Spring", you should watch that one if you're looking for something.

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Urizen
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Re: Movies

Post by Urizen » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:04 pm

Diebert van Rhijn,

Interesting anaysis. The more one is attentive to the undoubted symbolism in the Matrix films, the more sinister it all appears. One sees again and again, the same deliberate inversion of the truth, from beginning to end, no matter how one looks at it.

Agent Smith doesn't seem to be the ego per se, but rather the personification of the ego's enslavement to cosmic manifestation (Maya). While the ego draws itself to the illusion, the illusion also pulls the ego towards itself, hence from any knowledge of the Absolute. The 'pull' of Maya can take the form of deception, which is particularly common in these latter times of the Kali Yuga. Smith appears to be an agent of deception, recalling the archetypal 'man in black' figure of UFO mythology, as well as certain kinds of Jinn or demonic entities in traditional mythologies. He is part of Guenon's 'Counter-initiation' and possibly of the same class as John Lily's 'solid state intelligence'. The 'demon' should of course be regarded more as a factor of cosmic illusionment rather than an intelligent creature or entity. It is nonetheless true, that just as the Absolute offers salvation to humanity by 'incarnating' itself in self-realised individuals, so the 'illusion' can also personify itself in individuals who act as its agents. All the world's sacred traditions agree that both the initial historical Revelation of the Absolute (in Christ, Mohammed, the Buddha, etc.), and the subsequent fall into illusionment, are actuated by personal agencies, not blind material forces. It is probably what the whole 'Illuminati' fuss is all about, if it amounts to anything--certainly, anyone with an eye to symbolism can see that the illusion is clearly 'speaking' itself through recurring symbols in popular culture, synchronicities in world events, etc., but it's all part of a process that is far greater than anything explicable by the concerted efforts of individuals. It uses individuals, whether wittingly or unwittingly, but to focus on individuals leads to unwarranted paranoia and conspiracy theories. It's happening, that is for certain; those who don't see it are just not perceptive, while the conspiracy theorists misinterpret the symbols and the patterns.

Machines are symbolic of the impersonal, not the transpersonal; the computer is less than human, not more than human. It is below life, and can never be greater than life. With the 'Fall' (that is, the division of human consciousnss into Subject and Object by our entrancement to cosmic manifestations), with the Fall we lost our divinity, and became humans; with modernity, we lost our humanity, and became animals; with postmodernity, we lose even our animality, and become as metal--the computer is the symbol of this last stage of human degeneration wherein the soul, trapping itself in a machine, is finally enslaved to matter. We are approaching the final phase of the Kali Yuga which is the birth of the religion of the Antichrist; one suspects the mythology surrounding the Computer will play an essential role in this, as well as New Age pseudo-spirituality and ideas related to Transhumanism. The Matrix prefigures this development on the level of popular culture.

One mustn't be deceived by any suggestion that the historical process is one of 'progression' or spiritual 'evolution' leading to some kind of technological utopia. History is decline and deterioration. The myth of progress serves to prepare humanity for the next stage of 'evolution' - its enslavement to the simulacrum. Man worships matter and therefore will be enslaved by matter.

There is much to be said concerning your remarks about Philip K. Dick, but this will be saved for a later post.

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