Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

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Alex Jacob
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Alex Jacob »

(Shut up, Alex. You’re an idiot.)

(Fucking Jews!)
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Faust
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Faust »

Expectantly,
F: actually it does matter, for people who want to see the absurdity of it.

E: Life, the universe, and everything is absurd. Pointing out particular absurdities is about as hard and productive as shooting cattle at point blank with a .50 cal.
Uhh no. Pointing out the absurdities that have a tremendous physical and intellectual impact on other people, their religion, politics, is quite productive. This statement was so ridiculous.
F: You being the raving lunatic that you are, in so far that you care not for precision and honesty, would not bother to investigate this conundrum.

E: There is nothing to be investigated about it. It's word play and only significant for the purposes of empty rhetoric.
no it's not word play actually, if everything is word play then we shouldn't communicate anymore. Hey 2+2 = 5 is word play, so let's just forget about it then!! It's just empty rhetoric!!
That you've recognized one granfalloon for what it is might be commendable if you weren't so blind to the rest. We arbitrarily designate men as Christians, atheists, Hoosiers, Swedes, geniuses, and haberdashers.
We arbitrarily designate people as Christians, atheists and haberdashers??? WHAT??? A Christian is someone who follows the Christian religion, an atheist is one who doesn't believe in god, a haberdasher is a hat-seller, there's nothing arbitrary about this.
My statement stands in absence of any attempt by you to explain why I'm to think of such a thing as relevant. A holistic appeal like "in philosophizing, nothing is irrelevant" is absurd on the face of it. What's on television right now is clearly not relevant to the problem of universals.
What's on television right now actually has philosophical value since it signifies the quality of what people are being exposed to on a massive scale.
As an atheist I have some hesitation towards using Christian tradition as the sole basis for how words should be used. We all use words in new and different ways almost all the time. Why be stifled by a queer need for conformity to convention?
uhh it's not queer idiot, it's called language so we can communicate properly. We all DON'T use words in new and different ways almost all the time, if he did we wouldn't get anywhere. If you adhere to a belief, you cannot change that belief on a continuous scale and claim you're beliveing it, this is hypocrisy and outright lying.
If my religion should be based on choice, and my Christianity isn't
since when is there a Christianity that ISN'T based on choice?????
Regardless, I'm not using "Christianity" to indicate religious beliefs, so your whole point here is moot.
then WTF are you indicating it to???
ROFL. Is it? Is it really "impossible to exist"?
it is in a logical scheme.
I never said I was part of a Christian "race". It's all arbitrary to talk of races of men. Just granfalloons, and you know how we study granfalloons. I'm just Christian because my parents were Christian. I'm a Christian atheist because I don't believe in God. It's semantics not science. Pretty simple stuff here dude. Nothing significant is meant by it.
actually there are races, more like breeds you could say. You're not Christian just because your parents were Christian, there's NO SUCH THING in Christianity, therefore you AREN'T a Christian!!! If you follow by Christian rules, you cannot be a Christian just because your parents are, that has NOTHING to do with it!!!!
Gentleman who want to win respect from their fellows shall be the thing of which philosopher's never speak then?
no it shouldn't, because wanting to win respect compromises honesty and character. Philosophers seek to find wisdom.
Oh? They use their mind powers to prevent people from forming opinions of them then?
no, they just don't let people's opinions affect them.
To focus on them is to contribute to the problem, as opposed to helping to get rid of it.
you're an idiot. Focusing on the problem involves finding out why the problem exists in order to get rid of it.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Faust »

ChochemV2 wrote:All I'm pointing out is that the Israeli people are split on strict theocracy and secular government. There are those who want a theocracy and they have historically had more power so Israeli policy has been largely religiously-drive in the past. Recently, however, the secular portion of Israel's population has enjoyed increased power and it evident in their passing of various basic laws and the like even if they aren't what we would call a constitution.
which makes Israel even more retarded and unjustified. Not only is "being Jewish" totally arbitrary, but the country itself is not adhereing completely to Jewish religion. Why have this stupid country if it doesn't even agree on being a theocracy?? Why the fuck is there a country founded ON RELIGION?????
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Alex Jacob wrote:(Shut up, Alex. You’re an idiot.)

(Fucking Jews!)
(Tell me about it!)
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Leyla Shen »

ChochemV2 wrote:
Leyla wrote:I’m not sure what you mean by that. You don’t disagree with having a theocratic country? Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t you just recently complaining that you can’t seem to shake the label Jew even though you’re not Jewish?
All I'm pointing out is that the Israeli people are split on strict theocracy and secular government. There are those who want a theocracy and they have historically had more power so Israeli policy has been largely religiously-drive in the past. Recently, however, the secular portion of Israel's population has enjoyed increased power and it evident in their passing of various basic laws and the like even if they aren't what we would call a constitution.
Given that some 76% of Israel’s population identify as Jews--and we’ve already established that Judaism is a religion and, therefore, to be Jewish is to identify with the religion, even if only through “tradition”--I think your idea of the secular portion of Israel and its increased power is based on your own emotional bias and nothing more. I can understand why a Jew might want to do this, considering the “War on Terror” and synonymous relationship to Islamic fundamentalism. But, really, Israel is fundamentally no different. It is a theocracy. Attempts are made, of course, to associate its government with the governments of a secular and decidedly moral democratic West, but this fails on a number of fronts.

One such front is the question of religious freedom. Firstly, to emphasise the point, a bit of history. Prior to WWs I & II, “the Jewish Question” (“emancipation”) was in full swing in a Christian Prussia under the German Empire. (Among other testaments to this are the written works of Weininger, Bauer and Marx--to name a few). Now, if you’re familiar with Marx, you’re familiar with the question of political v. human emancipation. Bauer’s position was that Jews could only attain political emancipation if both Christian Prussia and Jews ditched their religious identities. But Marx argues that the renunciation of religion comprises human and not political emancipation; and his forecast for the attainment of that kind of emancipation is not very encouraging!

Bauer says that Jews are, in terms of what might be called spiritual evolution as reflected by their religious beliefs, one step behind Christians so the emancipation of Jews is a much tougher proposition for them than it is for Christians. To this Marx responds with the red herring appeal, claiming that the Jewish religion is merely a spiritual reflection of their economic life and, thus, even these Prussian Christians have become Jews and both need to emancipate themselves from what he calls pragmatic Judaism! (The beginnings of Das Kapital.) Course, you guessed it, Marx gets called an anti-semite for it.

Fast forward a bit, and we get the illustrious and competent Hitler with his version of Jewish emancipation. Then what happens? The Jews, after all their moaning and whinging, et cetera, ultimately culminated in mass death, get shifted to Palestine, institute their own religious state on grounds of the Rights of Man and, voila!, “emancipation.”

So, I ask you, what is the meaning of religious freedom in any country that has a particular religious influence in government in a country that has the same religious majority in its population? Even the “secular” Shinui--[url=Shinui--http://info.jpost.com/C002/Supplements/ ... ml#01right]with 15 out of 120 Knesset seats and who have unsuccessfully pushed for separation of religion from state[/url]--are Zionists.

In today’s Israeli government, as instituted in 1948 the Chief Rabbinate has authority over various rituals and, of particular interest, the status of immigrants. Coupled with the Right of Return policy, which should be an entirely secular question, this paints a purely religious picture.

I ask you, what meaning do these basic laws you refer to (and I would like to see which ones, in particular) have in relation to all of this?
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

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Leyla wrote:Given that some 76% of Israel’s population identify as Jews--and we’ve already established that Judaism is a religion and, therefore, to be Jewish is to identify with the religion, even if only through “tradition”--I think your idea of the secular portion of Israel and its increased power is based on your own emotional bias and nothing more. I can understand why a Jew might want to do this, considering the “War on Terror” and synonymous relationship to Islamic fundamentalism. But, really, Israel is fundamentally no different. It is a theocracy. Attempts are made, of course, to associate its government with the governments of a secular and decidedly moral democratic West, but this fails on a number of fronts.
That's a very bad a=b, b=c therefore a=c argument... Since 85% of American's identify themselves as Christian and Christianity is a religion there is no way America can be secular. Using that system no government on Earth is or could be secular because the majority of people on this planet are religious.
So, I ask you, what is the meaning of religious freedom in any country that has a particular religious influence in government in a country that has the same religious majority in its population? Even the “secular” Shinui--with 15 out of 120 Knesset seats and who have unsuccessfully pushed for separation of religion from state--are Zionists.
I thought the meaning of "Religious Freedom" was that you were free to practice whatever religion you wish without fear of prosecution or persecution. Once again, using your formula on America: America cannot have religious freedom because it was founded by Christians and it's population continues to be overwhelmingly Christian.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Leyla Shen »

You are generally a fine thinker, Chochem. Why do you insist on splashing about in the shallows on this matter?
That's a very bad a=b, b=c therefore a=c argument... Since 85% of American's identify themselves as Christian and Christianity is a religion there is no way America can be secular. Using that system no government on Earth is or could be secular because the majority of people on this planet are religious.
It’s not a bad argument. Your understanding of the terms being used is bad.

By definition, a secular government is free of clergy (and, therefore, religion) in government. Simple.

I have more to say, but it will have to wait.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

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Leyla Shen wrote:By definition, a secular government is free of clergy (and, therefore, religion) in government. Simple.
it's not just clergy Leyla, if politicians hold religious beliefs and are voted for them and act upon them then it's not really secular. Aside from that Israel is still a theocracy like Iran, but I don't see how that makes sense if you can buy pork and have different hair styles, bamboozled.

This thread reminds me of what this person had to say about Ayn Rand:
http://www.cwporter.com/rand.htm

Note the unfounded assertions; the undefined terms; the trick definitions; the terms defined in terms of other, mutually undefined (and undefinable) terms only; the "bait and switch" or "expanding definition" technique in which definitions are made to expand and contract at whim; the false analogies; the appeals to philosophical authority in purely factual matters (in a philosophy of "reason", no less!); the Talmudic hair-splitting; the sophistry; speciousness; the constant attempts at moral and intellectual intimidation; the jargon; verbosity; pretentiousness; arrogance; pitilessness; obnoxiousness, and chuztpa generally.

To sum up: it is a philosophy typically, totally Jewish in conception and style.

The Objectivist philosophy is like a jigsaw puzzle in which every word is redefined to jibe perfectly with some other word, again, arbitrarily redefined, in such a way as to produce an effect which is purely specious. It is an attempt to force reality into a mould dictated by purely verbal formulae with very little examination of fact.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

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Leyla wrote:It’s not a bad argument. Your understanding of the terms being used is bad.

By definition, a secular government is free of clergy (and, therefore, religion) in government. Simple.
Your original argument had nothing to do with the clergy holding governmental positions, it didn't come anywhere near talking about religious law intertwined with a country's laws, and it ignored religious freedom. These are three things which can easily be used to determine whether a government is secular or not, however, you chose to claim that a government is theistic just because a majority of it's population practices one religion or another.

And, once again, point out where I claimed Israel was currently secular. I said Israel is becoming MORE secular compared to it's ridiculously theistic past, however, it would be ridiculous for me to flatly deny it when the Right of Return is blatantly biased towards Judaism and it's only in recent decade(s) that Israel has begun introducing more secular laws to the books.

This is what you responded to before:
Chochem wrote:All I'm pointing out is that the Israeli people are split on strict theocracy and secular government. There are those who want a theocracy and they have historically had more power so Israeli policy has been largely religiously-drive in the past. Recently, however, the secular portion of Israel's population has enjoyed increased power and it evident in their passing of various basic laws and the like even if they aren't what we would call a constitution.
I may not say "Israel's government is theistic" but I am certainly not denying that it is theistic or claiming it's entirely secular...
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

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Chochem wrote:Your original argument had nothing to do with the clergy holding governmental positions, it didn't come anywhere near talking about religious law intertwined with a country's laws,…
What are you talking about? My “original” argument surrounded the theocratic nature of Israel. Israel is a country with a government. No less, it’s a country of Jews for Jews, a religion. That is its first basic law. I kind of think it’s obvious that, therefore, religious law is “intertwined” with the country’s laws. Until that is obliterated, the question of secularity is utterly redundant. Unless, that is, you believe “Jew” is a race that literally sprouted from the piece of earth called Israel.

At least in the Islamic Republic of Iran, one knows exactly where the root of the rules are! They are not hiding them, wittingly or unwittingly, from their own consciousness. They do not have biology confused with religion. It has at least that integrity between constitution and country. Even clearer yet, therefore, if Israel actually does become significantly secular, it will not be a Jewish thing (double entendre fully intended).

You obviously prefer to be, 1) indirect on the matter in the first instance:
L: No, not Jewish “principles,” Chochem. The Jewish religion. I mean, hello? It’s the fucking Holy Land. Everybody knows that!

C: Six of one half a dozen of another.

L: Well, just so we're really clear, ya know...
When is not selling pork a religious doctrine and when is it a principle?

And, 2) blatantly contradictory:
L: The reason Israel has no constitution (which is precisely what the secular component of that country wanted) is because the religious majority (obviously) has obstructed same since 1948. They’re waiting for more Jews to arrive….

C: That would be exceedingly stupid of them since there are relatively few Jews in the world... There are fewer Jewish people worldwide than the population of Florida and a third of that total already live in Israel (another third lives in NYC).
Yet, earlier you wrote:
L: Do you not find it incredibly stupid that Israel would be promoting immigration into a country that is already lacking in one of the most basic natural resources for human life---water? And all this for a religious homeland with religious borders.

C: Israel is a country of roughly seven million in an area the size of New Jersey surrounded by tens of millions of people. They have had the resources and ingenuity to accommodate around a third of the world's Jewish population so far so why not try to get a few more on their side [see ***(1) below]?
And this:
C: I don't disagree with the reason for there being no constitution; the orthodox Jews have been holding it off since independence because they have always wanted a more theocratic country with limited success.

L: I’m not sure what you mean by that. You don’t disagree with having a theocratic country? Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t you just recently complaining that you can’t seem to shake the label Jew even though you’re not Jewish?

C: All I'm pointing out is that the Israeli people are split on strict theocracy and secular government. There are those who want a theocracy and they have historically had more power so Israeli policy has been largely religiously-drive in the past. Recently, however, the secular portion of Israel's population has enjoyed increased power and it evident in their passing of various basic laws and the like even if they aren't what we would call a constitution.
Any democracy in which the majority of people are for Jews and a Jewish “homeland” in a land promised to them by God cannot, by definition, be secular since the very foundation of such a country and its democracy is God’s law. Again, this is Israel’s FIRST basic law. And, as I pointed out somewhere in this discussion, it is no less than the Chief Rabbinate who makes decisions with respect to immigration and who is and is not a “Jew” and, therefore, what the majority of Israel will actually be--a preordained religious democracy.

Now, you’re position earlier seemed to be that this was somehow more respectable, more sane, more moral--more something--than an Islamic Republic, such as Iran, because Israel’s citizens buy and sell pork and can have any haircut they want. My position is, so long as that’s the majority vote--as is Israel’s “land of the Jews” policy--who the fuck is a Jew, a Christian or an atheist to challenge any of it? Why is it more important to support a country of Yahweh’s chosen people than it is one who will not buy and sell pork and offer various hairstyles? ***(1) And that’s exactly what Israel has been: somehow more important. Billions and billions in economic, military and educational (and you should know how fucked up their education systems is currently) support (some $1.2bil every year for at least the last 30 years). It has received the most international aid of all countries since the late 50s. And what does it export? Well, in 2006, its defence export contracts totalled $4.4bil, right up there with the US, Russia, Britain and France.

So, you know, I kind of fail to see the moral significance in the fact that in Israel you can get any haircut you like and, in some relatively small (about 10%) part of Israel, its legal to sell and buy pork and trade on the Sabbath for Israel’s Russian immigrant sector.
…and it ignored religious freedom.
Clearly, I stated this as one front upon which Israel fails and indicated I would be getting back to it. There are many! Hence, I fail to see your point. Am I meant to anticipate and therefore divulge the entire course of a discussion in a single post? There is much to say on this particular subject, which will also address Faust’s latest quandary in his last post on the matter.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by ChochemV2 »

Leyla wrote:What are you talking about? My “original” argument surrounded the theocratic nature of Israel. Israel is a country with a government. No less, it’s a country of Jews for Jews, a religion. That is its first basic law. I kind of think it’s obvious that, therefore, religious law is “intertwined” with the country’s laws. Until that is obliterated, the question of secularity is utterly redundant. Unless, that is, you believe “Jew” is a race that literally sprouted from the piece of earth called Israel.
I realize you don't think Israel cannot be called secular unless it ceases to exist and that's a wonderful Catch-22 to base your entire argument on but it ignores the very reality of the situation. I, personally, would love to see a more reasonable group of Israeli's take control of the country and lessen or obliterate religion's involvement in the government because it's quite obvious that Israel isn't going anywhere.
When is not selling pork a religious doctrine and when is it a principle?
What? You are truly obsessed with the pork thing. All I pointed out was that Israel doesn't make public policy which strictly adheres to Jewish religious principles. Israel doesn't force a Jewish Orthodox lifestyle on it's citizens as Iran does and is doing to ever greater degrees...

As to my supposed contradiction; you're comparing different contexts.

In the first quote I was saying it would be stupid of the religious party to stall a constitution so more Jews could arrive in Israel since Israel already has a significant portion of the worldwide Jewish population within it's borders. The reason for them not wanting a constitution is so blatantly obvious: it would take away from their power. If people want a document which grants every citizen specific rights which cannot be infringed upon then that would remove quite a few weapons from the Jewish establishment's arsenal. These are people who want an Iran-esque theocracy which forces a Jewish lifestyle on every single one of it's inhabitants which could never happen if Israel adopted a constitution.

As for the second quote I was simply disagreeing with your point that Israel can't accommodate more people and that it was negligent for them to keep accepting immigrants. So, I think Israel can certainly absorb more people but they shouldn't count on another great wave of immigrants before accepting a constitution...
Any democracy in which the majority of people are for Jews and a Jewish “homeland” in a land promised to them by God cannot, by definition, be secular since the very foundation of such a country and its democracy is God’s law. Again, this is Israel’s FIRST basic law. And, as I pointed out somewhere in this discussion, it is no less than the Chief Rabbinate who makes decisions with respect to immigration and who is and is not a “Jew” and, therefore, what the majority of Israel will actually be--a preordained religious democracy.
And yet removing the Rabbinate's power would go a long way towards creating a reasonable Israel with which to talk to. The Palestinians aren't just going to disappear and Israel can't continue to keep them in ghetto-like conditions indefinitely. An increase in secularism within Israel may never make it a secular state in your eyes but it would certainly help temper their decisions with some measure of rationality.
So, you know, I kind of fail to see the moral significance in the fact that in Israel you can get any haircut you like and, in some relatively small (about 10%) part of Israel, its legal to sell and buy pork and trade on the Sabbath for Israel’s Russian immigrant sector.
There may be no moral significance but it makes them easier to deal with as does the money which we give them. Threaten to remove aid and I'm sure the world could get Israel to do just about anything. The question is one of the will to force choices which need to be made and not simply hope two bullies eventually work things out on their own...
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by ChochemV2 »

Leyla wrote:Clearly, I stated this as one front upon which Israel fails and indicated I would be getting back to it. There are many! Hence, I fail to see your point. Am I meant to anticipate and therefore divulge the entire course of a discussion in a single post? There is much to say on this particular subject, which will also address Faust’s latest quandary in his last post on the matter.
You can't recognize agreement when I try to meet you halfway. I've admitted Israel allows religious figures to hold political power (you yourself mentioned the Chief Rabbinate), that the Right of Return is an example of religion in public policy, and I doubt I'd have any case in claiming Israel has had a sterling record at promoting religious freedom within it's borders (especially since the Rabbinate controls Jewish weddings within Israel and forces people to be married by an Orthodox Rabbi)... I'll bold it so maybe you will see it: ISRAEL IS A THEOCRACY and there is really no way around it...
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Chochem wrote:I realize you don't think Israel cannot be called secular unless it ceases to exist…
Unless it ceases to exist as a theocracy. Careful, I fear you’re starting to show hints of Alex‘s paranoid psychosis here.

I have no issues with an Israel that isn’t a theocracy existing with free reign, even financial backing, in a political climate of anti-terrorism aimed at religious fundamentalism. The publicised catalyst for this “war on terror”, remember, was a few thousand deaths of innocent people apparently entirely perpetrated by Islamic fundamentalists in the form of 9/11.

I have assumed that I do not need to point out that my position on secularity is the same in respect to not only any theocracy, but any and every state.
Chochem wrote:…and that's a wonderful Catch-22 to base your entire argument on but it ignores the very reality of the situation.
It does no such thing. The very reality of the situation, as you know, is that Israel is just as much a theocracy and driven by religious ideology as Iran. You know, I think you know very little about Iran and what percentage of its population might be considered just as secular as Israel’s.

It’s interesting to note that (and I forget his name) the very rich owner of the supermarket chain that used to buy and sell pork--a Russian immigrant--has now decided he will no longer buy and sell pork in his stores, much to the secular component of Israeli society’s dismay. This guy isn’t even a Jew. (Some think it’s just a push for political power.) So, the extremely salient point which I cannot emphasise enough is this: when there is no state as state any issues necessarily become theological issues. It‘s citizens, both within and without any such particular state, will always find themselves in religious opposition to the “state.” (Of course, I know you understand this, but I reserve my right to speak it nonetheless.) In a political state, the state itself is free from religion--even a majority religion where issues really only take on the likeness of religious opposition--a hue, of sorts. Hence, the destruction of Israel takes not the form of bombs, war and/or the redrawing of territory but of emancipation from religious ideologies; its maintenance, then, takes the form of secularity and, in that context, its citizens exercise, if they wish, religious freedoms.

I have to cut it short. I’ll come back to the rest of your post ASAP.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

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Given the continuance of anti-Semitism, I dont blame Jews for wanting some place on the planet to go to if local demagoguery takes another hit on them. Israel works.

As for the gas chambers, if they doubt 6 million Jews were killed, why not also wonder that the Japs killed 12 million Chinese, or that Mao added another 50 million, or Stalin killing 50 million Russians. What? are jews the only ones who count? If you debunk the one, you havta debunk all of them. Throw in the Armenians and Cambodians while you are at it.

I was born on a farm in MN. My grandfather's generations spoke German, and the Lutheran churches had an 8:30 AM service in German, the 10:00 in English. The Germans got up earlier. Then, after the war, I worked in the the fields with my kin who'd served in Germany. Quite naturally, they were sent there because of their familiarity with the language.

If the genocide was fiction, they would have said something. They were over there, understood enuf of the language, and knew what was going on. To claim the genocide didnt happen charges these men with being liars. Since I knew them to be honest, I find this incredible.

Of course they didnt gas all 6 million. But SS documents have been found which reveal that the troops were suffering from what we now call PTSD from butchering women and kids. The Nazis invented the gas chambers so the Jews could be killed without anyone having to watch. The officer corps was concerned about the mental health of their troops.

Ironically, part of the eugenics program actually succeeded. The Nazis took all the mental retards out of the gene pool. As a result, the Germans alive today are smarter and healthier.

There is another eugenics program starting out, unseen. Smart career women, seeing that all the men they consider worthy in their professions are already married to sexy bimbos who didnt wait for a degree to marry, these smart women are now going to fertility clinics to select among thousands of far more promising Y chromosome lines to use artificial insemination with. This has been going on now long enuf that some of the first kids are now in college and doing as would be expected.

The women tend to select from Nordic lines, if for no other reason, than that the Vikings were the most widely traveled race of men and therefore those who survived to return to Scandanavia have the most robust immune systems. And as a result of that, most of the kids are blond with blue eyes. The Nazis must be rolling in their graves, green with envy.

I have proposed that it would be only fair to subsidize fertility clinic services for poor women. Even offer in Vitro. The women would receive smart kids that are a lot easier for them to deal with, and the crime rate that begins at puberty would dramatically fall off, better for both, the mothers and society.

Because of the diffs between male and female brains, the mothers would do far better to only bear girls- who are far more likely to look after their mothers in later years.
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MORE ON POLITICAL V. HUMAN EMANCIPATION

Post by Leyla Shen »

Now, if I’ve not made myself clear in that last paragraph, let me know and I’ll clarify because it is at this point, in fact, that the “Catch 22” rears its ugly little head for everyone to see. When a state is politically freed from religion, its citizens necessarily gain the right to be religious in private. Having assumed some virtue (and it is a virtue if you value reason) to freeing the state itself politically (which is to say publicly) from religion, one acknowledges the imperfections of religion yet--as a truly political state--cannot free its individual citizens from religion but must instead grant them the right to it in private (that is, as a private citizen) with congruent limitations. So, we have this state free from religion which exists as an abstraction and nowhere in any other form. The genius of Marx astutely deems this abstraction as analogous to the abstraction of heaven and the very life of “private citizen” as the profane, egoistic world from which the religious try to distance their very involved selves. Politics can never free man from himself and his own ignorance but, as small and perhaps problematic as it may at first appear, this kind of emancipation--political emancipation--is the first step begging for completion in man's bid for emancipation.

To take a theological position as an individual or as a state in regard to any state immediately reduces the only freedom (the freedom to think) there is to naught for all and makes such a state instantly non-secular. There are no half measures to this thing. And, you know, Jews are as much an issue as Christians, Buddhists and Muslims---even though, curiously, they never get anywhere near the serving the others do on this forum. There's seems to be this strange idea that Jews are still being persecuted...
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Leyla Shen »

daybrown wrote:Given the continuance of anti-Semitism (1), I dont blame Jews for wanting some place on the planet to go to if local demagoguery takes another hit on them. Israel works.


No, it does not work. Not, at least, without contradicting the very grounds upon which it is based. It produces nothing but its own brand of local demagoguery, as is easily witnessed in Israel.

Palestinians are as Semitic as one gets and not at all Ashkenazi or Jewish. Yes, the continuance of anti-Semitism is alive and well and must apply to the Jew, too.

The Jew’s argument against the continuance of racial “anti-Semitism” (that is, bastardising race and religion) would be largely helped by their own clarity on the matter---but, they are incapable of that, just like their foes. Two peas in a diseased pod.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by daybrown »

There are lotsa places a Palestinian can go to appeal to brother Moslems, who Mohammet says, must take them in and make room for them in their communities.
There's only one place a Jew can go.

There lotsa secular governments, and many can be found back in history. But we also see innumerable times when the government changed, was taken over by demagoguery, and it was time to kill Jews. There was something like this in Spain as the Christians repressed both the Moors and the Jews. But back then, again, there were lotsa places for the Moors to move to.

Secular government sounds nice in theory, but when economic crisis emerges minorities get scapegoated.

The "Holy Land" is an oxymoron, standing as a lesson in hypocrisy how the Levantine religions, which have always preached peace, went there to practice war. I'm content to let the strongest military have the place as a testiment to their own hypocrisy.

Besides. it wasnt as if the "Jews" took it from the Palestinians. They didnt own it. After Trajan hauled the Jewish aristocracy to Rome, the Romans owned it. Then the Byzantines owned it; then the Caliphs owned it, then the Ottoman Sultans, and finally the Brits. The Jews took it away from the Brits, who frankly were glad to be rid of a tar baby. Not *once* in the 2000 years since Trajan, has the indigeneous population of the place ever run things, and as we see in Gaza and the West Bank, they still dunno how to do it.

You could kill all the Jews, or drown them in the sea, but just like Iraq, we'd see the various factions in the area shoot it out just like they did in Lebanon. The Jews, to their credit, can at least change regimes with some other method than assassination.

And as for the thread, if Mao murdered 50 million, and the Japs did in 12 million Chinese, and Stalin killed 50 million Russians, why is it so hard to believe the Nazis killed a mere 6 million Jews? Is there any doubt bout the Armenian genocide?
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Bitch.

More shallow, lazy hyperbole and contradiction, as is usual in the defense of Israel.

With respect to your oft repeated assertion about the number of Jews killed, I think the thread has long since moved on. Funny how you can’t; ever the victim. Everything you say is couched within and for the preservation of that limitation. It’s called narrow-mindedness; the antithesis of philosophy. It is what frightened people do.

Really, you should actually try to offer a cogent argument, where each sentence--each idea--relates to the next without hyperbole and contradiction.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Dan Rowden »

daybrown wrote:There are lotsa places a Palestinian can go to appeal to brother Moslems, who Mohammet says, must take them in and make room for them in their communities.
That just isn't true. You should look into the plight of Palestinian refugees from Iraq.
There's only one place a Jew can go.
I can't even begin to make sense of that. Jews can go wherever the hell they like, immigration laws permitting.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Faust »

Dan Rowden wrote:
There's only one place a Jew can go.
I can't even begin to make sense of that. Jews can go wherever the hell they like, immigration laws permitting.
hahahaha, quoted for satirical sardonic humour, bahahaha. so you see Dan, how ludicrous some of them are?
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Iolaus »

Daybrown,

What, precisely, did your relatives say that they saw? With all due respect, I don' think any one busy soldier could get enough of a perspecive on an entire event like the genocide. The western soldiers, from what I undersand, never got inside a concentration camp until the war was over. They certainly saw some emaciated survivors.

It's not that genocide can't happen, or that all those estimates of other genocides are wrong, it's more like following certain trails of political deceptions and motives to arrive at a better truth. Or do you generally just buy into whatever is taught by the media and public education?

Who hates the nazis more than the russians? Armictice day is still celebrated in the former ussr with great fervor, including among the young, whereas our young have long ceased to care.

greetings from the Ukraine, by the way.

so I asked my husband, a soviet product, how many jew were killed in the camps? and he said, 2-3 million. no argument about the holocaust, just a different education system and a different official number.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by daybrown »

It isnt what my kin said about the war while working in the field, but what they did not. Everyone saw the photos in the newspapers, and by the mid 1950's, in the run up to civil rights, there was plenty of video on TV. If these men thot that the German record was being distorted, in as much as they were *Germans*, they would have said something nobody did.

And why is it that *only* the Nazi halocaust is doubted? Does anyone doubt that the Japs killed 12 million Chinese, or that Mao murdered another 50 million, or that Stalin took out 50 million? WTF? Whats so damn hard to believe about a measly 6 million? All right, the Jews milked for all it was worth, but that dont mean it didnt happen.

And- lets look at the long history. Republics have fallen into demagoguery regularly, and the Jews, far more than any other religion or ethnicity have been convenient targets. I therefore do not blame them for wanting some place on the planet to flee to. Need I remind you that the USA *refused* to take Jews in as the Nazis got increasingly oppressive? Is there any other group that was so regularly blocked from immigration to the USA or any other nation as specifically as the Jews? Was there any organized effort to keep out Armenians when they were suffering genocide at the hands of the Turks? And even the Irish, bad as it was for them, were not blocked from entering the USA. ONLY THE JEW.

I dont have a dog in this fight. I'm not Jewish. I'm not Christian either. I know enuf history to see that Christian kings imported Jews to run their governments because they didnt trust their own people, and knew that no Jew could pull a coup to replace them. This set the Jews up for anti-Semitism, which has become a part of all Christian cultures. But there are Aryan cultures which were never Christianized, and they never had a "Jewish problem". SO- Israel does not exist because there's a Jewish problem, but because there's a Christian problem.

One other clue to the halocaust denial is that the Germans are so similar to Americans. Read the studies by Stanley Milgram on obedience. The *reason* the debunking goes on, is that Americans are in denial that they could do what the Nazis did. Let me be clear. Milgram showed Americans could be as brutal. As if the news from the brutality in Iraq or Abu Gharib should leave any doubt. What keeps it in check so far is the knowledge now that the photos will get out. The Nazis made no efforts to try to hide what they were doing so long as they thot they were winning.

I've seen translations of SS officers discussing the problems the troops were having from murdering women and kids. Nobody had a name for PTSD back then, and the halocaust deniers dont seem to understand how it works, but its embedded in hominid instincts. The gas chambers were designed to kill so that the troops would not have to watch, and that solved the problem for the SS. And if anyone doubts that men could be come so brutal, read the studies by Zimbardo.

I daresay the Jews know who Zimbardo & Milgram are, and have based some of their decisions based on the insights that come out of their work. It would not *matter* if the rabbinate and all other aspects of Jewish religion was stripped from the Israeli state. In the eyes of the Moslems, they'd still be *JEWS*. Trying to do so to promote moderate elements of Islam is like trying to promote moderate elements of the Nazi party. Lotsa luck.
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Post by Leyla Shen »

All right, the Jews milked for all it was worth, [snip]
Yes, and they still do, why?
Whats so damn hard to believe about a measly 6 million?
…because they need six million to justify their own crime of genocide today?

~
SO- Israel does not exist because there's a Jewish problem, but because there's a Christian problem.
Then:
I daresay the Jews know who Zimbardo & Milgram are, and have based some of their decisions based on the insights that come out of their work. It would not *matter* if the rabbinate and all other aspects of Jewish religion was stripped from the Israeli state. In the eyes of the Moslems, they'd still be *JEWS*.
Oh, so now the problem is Muslims. How convenient.
I dont have a dog in this fight.
Oh, really? You sure…I think you're lying:
Trying to do so to promote moderate elements of Islam is like trying to promote moderate elements of the Nazi party.
How Nazi-ist of you! How about the fact that Jews and Judaism flourished during the Ottoman (Muslim) Empire, and the fact that it is Jews who are killing and otherwise inhumanely treating Muslims today.
And even the Irish, bad as it was for them, were not blocked from entering the USA. ONLY THE JEW.
YOU‘RE LEAVING OUT A NUMBER OF SALIENT POINTS. Like, the 2.5 mil. Jews emigrating mostly, if not completely, to the US in 1880-1920.

Of course, St Louis (but not Quanza) was rejected also by Cuba and Canada, as I’m sure many refugees are rejected--NOT ONLY THE JEW.
I know enuf history to see that Christian kings imported Jews to run their governments because they didnt trust their own people, and knew that no Jew could pull a coup to replace them.
You know about as much as your misspelt adornments are flattering to authoritative posts. They demonstrate a serious problem with chronological continuity, most importantly. You can’t just jump all over history, leaving gaping chasms in your “theories,” to satisfy your emotions and expect to be deemed a credible source of information. Still, serves as a classic demonstration of propaganda, if nothing else.
Milgram showed Americans could be as brutal. As if the news from the brutality in Iraq or Abu Gharib should leave any doubt. What keeps it in check so far is the knowledge now that the photos will get out. The Nazis made no efforts to try to hide what they were doing so long as they thot they were winning.
Right. First because of the Christians, second that the Americans could be just as brutal (but not the oh-so-moderate Jews, no!) and, third, because Muslims are Nazis….and the Jews are the ultimate minority, clawing their way up to a majority by creating guilt even where it does not exist because they are the righteous, chosen ones who would not otherwise harm anybody…

No matter which way you try to cut it, the Jews are today’s Nazis, and have been since the creation of Israel.
Lotsa luck.
Mm-hm.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by daybrown »

To deal with a few questions at a time to see if there is common ground... We agree the Halocaust happened, and that the Jews milk it. But for one, there's *money* in it, mostly from Christian Fundies who want to see "The Jews" return to Israel to fulifll prophecy. Again, no Christians, no money, no problem.

Let's remember also that the Ashkenazic Jews who are returning, never came from Israel in the first place, but Sogdia. Without them, the Sephardic Jews wouldda been pushed into the sea long ago.

As for the Ottomans... you forget the Armenian genocide? Why would the Jews, or anyone else for that matter, trust the Turks? Nobody else that region, to this very day, trusts them. There's a damn good reason the Kurds are trying to reclaim their *homeland* with the same right of return that the Jews and Native Americans claim. If it werent for the Turks, We could have turned over the keys in Northern Iraq by now to the Kurds, and the oil would be flowing from all the fields north of Baghdad, and the price at the pump would prolly fall by a buck.

The Jews are just one small part of a mess that has been going on for 5000 years there, ever since the warrior class worked out the logistics to move large armies around. And every iteration of the religion there, which started out with Goddess worship of Astarte, was replaced with the royal 'we' in the Torah, to the "I" of Jehovah, then God the Father, then Allah, each example more misogynistic than the previous.

You talk about the Jews committing genocide against the Palestinians. How does that compare with the Moslems committing genocide against the animistic Africans in Darfur? Look at the record. On every frontier with Islam there has been more viiolence between that religion and whatever other religion than the other religions have had with each other in total. We dont read about religious strife among the Confucians, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, and the one big problem India had was with a buncha Jain fanatics, which itself is a Moslem cult.

But what else would you expect of people who follow a prophet with a 9 year old wife? Or believe him when he tells the Jihadim that they will spend eternity fucking 12 year old virgins. You can take every jew out to be shot in Palestine for all I care. That is not going to bring peace. Ever since Trajan hauled the Jews off 2000 years ago, the Romans ran the place, then the Byzantines, then the Caliphs, then the Turks, then the Brits, and finally the "Jews". Not ONCE in that whole time did the indigeneous population take advantage of the change in management to establish their own independent rule, much less a decent republic, and we see how the goon squads they elect have at each other now.

I didnt say the Jews could not b e brutal. I'm not nominating them for sainthood. The Global Market rules apply: those who can better manage a resource base tend to take it over. The Jews dont have nearly as many alpha males in their gene pool, so they are more able to cooperate. The Arabs have too many, so they have the chronic problem of too many chiefs, and not enuf Indians.

Which is what you'd expect by giving the warriors 4 wives and as many concubines as they can steal. The smart women see the hordes coming, get the fuck outta dodge, move to Venice or wherever, and leave the airheads there to be bred like welfare queens. This gratifies the egos of the clerics and tyrants who want a massive slave class to order around, but its no longer competitive, or even useful in the global market.

The Sogdians, if you recall, had the west half of the Silk Road. And when the Moslems threatened to over run it, the Sogdian "Jews" fled to Europe and up the 'Amber Road', ie the rivers between the Baltic & Black Seas where the Vikings were setting up another network of independent city states one could do business in. So- when they moved to Israel, they took those entrepreneurial genes with them. And we now know that women ran the ancient shipping offices just as they now run modern ones. The power of women in Ashkenazic culture was never far below the surface, while the power of their men was dampened by always having to operate under the rule of Christian monarchs.

And what did they setup in Israel? The same as they had seen in the Independent city states- a republic; which has been in operation now for nearly 60 years. Do we have even one example of an Arab state that was able to run a republic that long in all of the 5000 years of their history? What makes the Nazis so memorable, is that they are so unique in European history. Had that mentality had the economic power and innovation of an Arab culture behind it, they would have gotten nowhere.

Not that it matters what we here think. The corporate media will keep this pot simmering for the sake of ratings. The most hopeful thing I see going on is the coalition forming to put the Chinese and European collection of documents and artifacts online from the Silk Road. Rather than arguing uselessly about whether the Jews or Arabs are at fault, we can look at a transnational, multi-cultural economy that showed respect for religious diversity that actually worked for well over a millennia.

The Levantine scriptures have always preached peace, and been used to justify war. But here the texts dont preach peace... because it was not an issue! The Confucian, Buddhist, & Taoists texts are not about the greater glory of God, and what you should not do because of His divine law, but about how real people should just get along with each other. It looks a lot like the "Wiccan Rede": "do no harm."

At some point, I expect the media and those trying to reconstruct their pre-Christian spiritual roots will discover this gold mine of movie scripts and produce 'great Easterns' with the same kind of vast landscapes as we have seen in 'Westerns'. Which will have much more interesting costumes for the fags to design. And if the Ashkenazi went back to reclaim their ancestral lands in Central Asia... well, there's *oil* there.
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Re: Hitler's gas chambers mere fiction?

Post by Leyla Shen »

daybrown wrote:To deal with a few questions at a time to see if there is common ground... We agree the Halocaust happened,
I have never denied that a significant number of Jews were killed under Hitler and that this particular event is called the holocaust.
…and that the Jews milk it.
Yes.
But for one, there's *money* in it, mostly from Christian Fundies who want to see "The Jews" return to Israel to fulifll prophecy.
Sure. But why *money* and not just “money” (without the quotes, of course)? I want to hear the substance behind the asterisks, if I may.
Again, no Christians, no money, no problem.
Sure. However, what we actually have is Christians plus money plus Jews = problem. It is not satisfactory to excuse Jewish ignorance because of Christian ignorance, even if they are a comparatively small minority.

I think this explains your willingness in defense of Jews to switch between a few key terms for everything brutal--"Muslims, Arabs, Christians, Americans"--and your reference to Jews being placed in quotation marks; like, they can’t be labelled but everybody else can. I would appreciate it if you would succinctly delineate why it is you place the term “Jew” in quotation marks but do not do so to any other stakeholder in the matter? Does your sympathy extend anywhere beyond the fact of their minority (in numbers) position? Is the Israeli Jew really a non-Jew who has been deceived by Christians?

On the matter of labels, for example, you don’t even bother to make the distinction between the Ottoman Empire and the Young Turks--a nationalist movement overturning the sultanic autocracy and reinstating a parliamentary republic. 1909 saw activism from several Turkish reformist parties as well as the institution of Armenian political and revolutionary organisations. Why do you not, say, call the young Turks--or even the Ottomans--”Muslims” but rather give them both the same title of Muslim? Clearly there is a valid distinction here, which it seems you are not honestly prepared to explore. This I do not understand.

What do you think of using brutal conditions pushed by a nationalist agenda as an argument for the very same thing--another nationalist agenda?
Let's remember also that the Ashkenazic Jews who are returning, never came from Israel in the first place, but Sogdia.
Right. They never came from Israel. Why do you think I need to be reminded of this?
Without them, the Sephardic Jews wouldda been pushed into the sea long ago.
I see no evidence for this but am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt to furnish same that is outside of religious scriptures. Please also indicate whether you think this would be done by Muslims, Arabs or otherwise and why.

I will address the rest of your post later.

By the way, just because you're in your sixties doesn't mean you're not allowed to use proper English. Is there a conscious reason you choose not to?
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