Why do YOU search for enlightenment?

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Orenholt
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Re: Why do YOU search for enlightenment?

Post by Orenholt » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:48 pm

Kunga wrote: Back to the OP of this thread.....can you prove scientifically if you are Enlightened or that Enlightenment even exists ?

[Or can science prove scientifically that someone is Enlightened ? ]
Well first we would have to define what enlightenment means. The accepted definition is "living without delusion".
But how can a delusional person know if someone else is NOT delusional?

And how can a person know for sure that he or she is enlightened?

I think it's kind of like being in love.

There may be changes in the brain chemistry that are empirically observable but the easiest way to tell is to experience it yourself.

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Kunga
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Re: Why do YOU search for enlightenment?

Post by Kunga » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:38 pm

Orenholt wrote:how can a delusional person know if someone else is NOT delusional?
Then they wouldn't be delusional would they ?

Orenholt wrote:how can a person know for sure that he or she is enlightened?
How can a person know for sure they aren't ? It would take some wisdom to know either way . Actually, I think when someone is Enlightened, [like Buddha], they are egoless,also attain certain abilities : [psychic,clarvoyant,walk on water,raise the dead,change water to wine,stuff like that]

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jon ... t.html#N20

Orenholt wrote:I think it's kind of like being in love. There may be changes in the brain chemistry that are empirically observable but the easiest way to tell is to experience it yourself.
Just because you're experiencing something, it dosn't nessessarily mean it's real. People think they are in "love", but it's actually only egoistical selfish emotions.....which can change the next moment. People hallucinate and think it's real....deluded people can think of themselves as Enlightened.....

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Why do YOU search for enlightenment?

Post by Dan Rowden » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:52 pm

Kunga wrote:
Dan Rowden wrote:Alexander's interpretations/inferences etc regarding his experiences are essentially unscientific. Therefore, they don't mean anything. What he should say is no more than "I experienced this shit and I have no idea what it means". Instead he wrote a book and sold it to silly people.
Unscientific....comming from a Harvard Grad/Neuroscientist. He wrote the book to make a laughing stock of himself probebly eh ?
Alexander is a neurosurgeon, not a neuroscientist. They are rather different things. Sam Harris is a neuroscientist:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven
Back to the OP of this thread.....can you prove scientifically if you are Enlightened or that Enlightenment even exists ?
No, but it's not analogous.
[Or can science prove scientifically that someone is Enlightened ? ]
No, but, again, it's not analogous.

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Orenholt
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Re: Why do YOU search for enlightenment?

Post by Orenholt » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:17 pm

Kunga wrote:
Orenholt wrote:how can a delusional person know if someone else is NOT delusional?
Then they wouldn't be delusional would they ?

Well there's always the possibility that they're both delusional.

Orenholt wrote:how can a person know for sure that he or she is enlightened?
How can a person know for sure they aren't ? It would take some wisdom to know either way . Actually, I think when someone is Enlightened, [like Buddha], they are egoless,also attain certain abilities : [psychic,clarvoyant,walk on water,raise the dead,change water to wine,stuff like that]
Well then by that definition only Jesus was enlightened and not Buddha or Socrates or any of the others.
I think the whole "water into wine" thing was supposed to be about Jesus' divinity. Not his enlightenment.


Orenholt wrote:I think it's kind of like being in love. There may be changes in the brain chemistry that are empirically observable but the easiest way to tell is to experience it yourself.
Just because you're experiencing something, it dosn't nessessarily mean it's real. People think they are in "love", but it's actually only egoistical selfish emotions.....which can change the next moment. People hallucinate and think it's real....deluded people can think of themselves as Enlightened.....
That's a good point.

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Getoriks
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Re: Why do YOU search for enlightenment?

Post by Getoriks » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:26 pm

Dan Rowden wrote:Well, that's all perfectly reasonable till they get to the part about leaving the physical body and living in spirit. Unless that's meant to be metaphorical, it's silly.
Yes, living in the spiritual body just means realizing your true "body" -- the Infinite.

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Getoriks
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Re: Why do YOU search for enlightenment?

Post by Getoriks » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:29 pm

One thing I love about (genuine) philosophy and spirituality is that they make completely obsolete the issue of whether there is an afterlife!

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Kunga
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Re: Why do YOU search for enlightenment?

Post by Kunga » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:53 pm

Dan Rowden wrote:Alexander is a neurosurgeon, not a neuroscientist.
He was refered to as both in the article...and title of article in the link....also Sam Harris called him a scientist [towards the end of his article]...

Also, being that Sam Harris is a atheist, his view is biased .

Truth can never be discovered with a closed mind/ biased mind .

I haven't read the book myself...but at least if I did, I wouldn't be reading it with my mind closed.

Consciousness is still a mystery to science......like the universe......are there any Enlightened scientists ?

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Why do YOU search for enlightenment?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:45 pm

Getoriks wrote:One thing I love about (genuine) philosophy and spirituality is that they make completely obsolete the issue of whether there is an afterlife!
Well, in a way it implies a reversal: one is already in afterlife, a falsehood beyond life, piecing it all together again. Philosophy however is about truth just as much as the one life.

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Cahoot
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Re: Why do YOU search for enlightenment?

Post by Cahoot » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:45 pm

Orenholt wrote:For me personally I must admit that I have selfish reasons, as all reasons are. I've always been interested in the ultimate nature of reality as some kind of curiosity. But they say that curiosity killed the cat. I've always hated this notion because it's basically telling children "don't ask so many questions" mainly because the adults don't know the answer. The lesser heard second half of this proverb is that "satisfaction brought him back". Applying this to the ego and enlightenment one could say that enlightenment is the death and that the ego is what revived him.

To expand upon my personal reasons I once wanted to be a dictator of some kind or at least someone with a lot of power and influence and preferably with a lot of money to enable my good deeds. Maybe a religious leader of some kind or a famous talk show celebrity. I wanted to be any of those things because I always felt that I wasn't being heard and that I had good messages to spread about being righteous, just and noble. I thought that I needed to know everything possibly relevant not only to attain such a position but to make sure that I would make good decisions when I did.

However I've long since given up those dreams and lost my meaning in life. My interests in philosophy still persist though but I'm not sure why. Perhaps it's in order to attain and make good decisions in my life in general. But the way that many people especially on this forum present wisdom it's totally useless in the practical world and soul devouring to boot.

So I must ask, why do YOU search for enlightenment?
Is it simply because you want to be emotionless?
Is it simply because you want to be "intellectually superior" to people? (I think that describes at least one person here who will remain unnamed)
Is it simply because you want to gain fame like Jesus, Buddha and Socrates?

What's the reason behind your search?
I remember distinctly. This was the one purpose worthy of giving action a total and complete, sincere effort. At first the effort is forced, then the effort itself takes over and calls the shots, becoming perpetual and uncontrollable, inserting itself into every moment as it becomes a total desire that subsumes all other desires, then the desire and the effort leave in the sense that there is nothing desiring or exerting effort which changes the definition of desire and effort into simply being, rather than a separated reference point of identity becoming.

"It is dangerous to be sincere unless you are also stupid."
"There is always danger for those who are afraid."
- George Bernard Shaw

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