Satan

[Diebert van Rhijn]

For example, when I was a child the statement "brain dead" circulated about me quite frequently, as an adult it is mainly "Psychopath" or "Sociopath" which is what "Satan" has been labeling me along with my brother, sister and her friends.

It's called nowadays antisocial personality disorder as a catch-all and you certainly admit to a bunch of the main characteristics yourself, named even a commonly known cause, and many others seem to have pointed it out too. Perhaps there's something to it after all? You cannot expect for your partner to behave sane as she will definitively keep responding and adapting to your often disorderly mind, reflecting stuff back at you.

Anyway you are not a normal couple and unless you admit your mind is not functioning normally at all and that it will not allow yourself to be completely honest and reflective because of strong emotional holds, it will only become worse.

If advancing in philosophical insight is your desire, you need to gain new insight in your own situation, understand that you might actively resist admitting it's you who has a "condition" instead of everybody else but you. Work with other experienced people toward this goal, like you would when maintaining your property. Gaining insight in to the nature and consequences of your disorder, whatever it exactly is, could give you a tremendous boost, because philosophy is all about knowing yourself, and not as much the books. The goal is not to become "normal" but that doesn't mean all deviance and unusual states you find yourself in are good.

[Animus]

For example, when I was a child the statement "brain dead" circulated about me quite frequently, as an adult it is mainly "Psychopath" or "Sociopath" which is what "Satan" has been labeling me along with my brother, sister and her friends.

It's called nowadays antisocial personality disorder as a catch-all and you certainly admit to a bunch of the main characteristics yourself, named even a commonly known cause, and many others seem to have pointed it out too. Perhaps there's something to it after all? You cannot expect for your partner to behave sane as she will definitively keep responding and adapting to your often disorderly mind, reflecting stuff back at you.

Anyway you are not a normal couple and unless you admit your mind is not functioning normally at all and that it will not allow yourself to be completely honest and reflective because of strong emotional holds, it will only become worse.

If advancing in philosophical insight is your desire, you need to gain new insight in your own situation, understand that you might actively resist admitting it's you who has a "condition" instead of everybody else but you. Work with other experienced people toward this goal, like you would when maintaining your property. Gaining insight in to the nature and consequences of your disorder, whatever it exactly is, could give you a tremendous boost, because philosophy is all about knowing yourself, and not as much the books. The goal is not to become "normal" but that doesn't mean all deviance and unusual states you find yourself in are good.

Interestingly, I do not consider myself to be delusion-free or perfectly sane. That is a misconception on your part. I feel you may have jumped to this conclusion and not taken my statements of my own failures for what they indicate; an acceptance of my own folly. The fact that I openly apologized for my behavior here should also be an indication of that. What tends to bother me however, is the view that I am solely fucked up, and everyone else around me is perfectly rational. I know as a matter of fact this is not true, and I experienced first-hand the fallout of societal neuroses.

My brother who thinks I am "the most insentitive person he knows" never once listened to a single thing that concerned me. He may have "been there" for me with respect to finances, but with respect to my psychological well-being, all I get from him is mockery, ridicule and ignorance. I could easily cast him as "the most insensitive." Fact is I'm a bit more sensitive than that. I don't slap labels on anyone with as much ease as they slap them on me.

Your judgement of the situation is no surprise to me. Although, I must say it is surprising that by-and-large genius members would rally to support 'Satan' unequivocally.

[Animus]

It's called nowadays antisocial personality disorder

Yup, and that is generally what people who know that label me. Otherwise they label me "psychopath" or "psychotic" (if they don't know the difference). My personal diagnosis is more akin to Abulia, Apathy and damage to the Caudate Nucleus, or the Ventromedial Prefrontal Cortex and/or the tissues connecting it to the limbic system. But sure, we will go with your diagnosis because its obviously better. Whatever everyone else says is better. I don't know anything. I am not honest. I don't sympathize, empathize or show compassion. I study all manner of psychology and reflect on my own mind every day. Err. wait, no I don't, I just make up terms like "caudate nucleus" and "abulia". I just talk out of my ass. And my brother, who spends the majority of his time jerking off and playing video games, knows exactly what ails me. God-damn, I must be seriously fucked up, if even making a genuine attempt doesn't count next to an onanists who has never cracked the binding on a non-fiction book.

[Animus]

Gee guys. I can't thank you enough for solidifying her opinion that I must be a psychopath. Because I refuse to accept such a narrow diagnosis I got to wear two cups of coffee, get punched in the head and have the coffetable trashed from under me. And I tried to defend myself by shouting "Get your hands off me!" and pushing her away. Now, she is hung up on the fact that I pushed her. She would like to me to apologize no doubt, but still feels justified in beating on me because I'm so insensitive. Yet, how can someone who readily kicks the shit out of me and destroys my possessions be said to have empathy for me or even to "love" me.

It doesn't matter what I think, what matters is that she thinks I'm a psychopath and you guys have helped to solidify that point of view. Thanks again.

[Satan]

You wanted examples where I said I was sorry without blaming you.... here are a few recent ones: Why I should I even bother proving this to you? You have access to this information in your own email to seek the truth of your own biases, but instead refuse to look and reflect on what it is you do.


[/quote]Hello,

I'd like to say thank you for everything you did last night and the help that you have been providing me.

Thank you.

I'd also like to say sorry, for my spazzing. It sucks and makes me sad, and it's never what I wanted to do or have happen.


To think of how relaxing these days were meant to be for us both and how I made them into living hell for everyone involved, including Teal who came from out of town, makes me want to hate myself a lot, but I'm trying to be productive.

All I can think is, it's February, which means nothing, I know, but it can mean, let it go.

Start new and keep the focus on not being angry and when I want to get angry don't get angry but instead find empathy and compassion and spend the time trying to figure out why I felt anger for myself instead of trying to tell someone else something or prove something else to anyone. I think at this point I need my entire being to concentrate on taking care of myself and monitoring myself until I can reach an understanding or let some things go.

I'm sorry that I have said and done so many horrible things to you. It is true, that you are still trying to be by my side, even if I am having these problems that I am. Thanks for all your hard effort and thanks for remaining calm as much as you do.

Love,
Mandy

-----------------------
Hey Ryan,

Thank you for your patience. I know you were at times and I know that you eventually aren't any longer. I shouldn't require that you continually be patient either and I get that. As I lay there this morning I just kept thinking that it's all transitory. Why do I get so upset? This too shall pass, us arguing, my day at work with no sleep today feeling ill, the night with Ashley all tired, even if you are in a bad mood and not being nice. There are parts of those that will even be enjoyable and even the enjoyable moments like laying there in your arms this morning while thinking about these things, will pass. It kinda really helps with the not getting so upset about things that are upsetting as it changes them to enduring and learning moments instead of dire moments of distress. Also the flip is that you appreciate the more enjoyable moments as well, because they too will be ending.

Thanks for coffee and for talking to me. I'm sorry that I yelled at you so much and called you names. I'm sorry that I bothered you at work again, I should never talk to you before 8pm, unless it's business orientated. I'm sorry that I hurt you. I'm happy that I didn't hurt myself or break anything, but recognize the need for a different outlook on the situation as this isn't something we should do again. I hope what I have thought on this morning will be something that I can think on again when I have these sky is falling moments.

Love,
Mandy


---------------------

This one was interesting, made me realize how much further I have digressed in thinking due to our combating. (Sept/10)

Hey,


I honestly don't think I am capable of handling this anymore. This is what I am trying to say by saying I need to get away from you or I'll end up dead. Not because I think that you are the cause of all my problems, but because you bring them out more (because of our dynamic) and aren't supportive (because of our dynamic) even though you are trying.

I tried to convey this to you last night, but often when I try to convey something to you, you miss what it is I'm trying to say and focus on something else (part of our dynamic). Then what I am trying to say gets lost. Often you end up saying something opposite, which then I then take offense to or question my motives as being false. You sometimes now have been saying I've got your point but I am adding (Tim and I would run into this), which means that I don't feel that you are acknowledging my point before adding yours. This may contribute to why I feel like you never hear/listen to me. I often take offense because I feel like instead of really trying to understand what I am saying or see things through my eyes or trying to be me in your head, you are looking for ways in which to prove I shouldn't be/feel like that instead.

This is not supportive for my growth or life. I am trying not to self-loathe but self-view in a non condemning way in order to be able to objectively view myself. It is exceptionally hard when I feel you are condemning me (because of our dynamic and combative stance). So instead of being able to objectively view myself I end up defending myself. I later can talk about my downfalls and self view with Teal or other people, but not with you as we have this poor dynamic. When I do discuss things with you, I find that it gets changed into other things and that we never really address what it is I'm trying to convey. You often then think that I am incapable of seeing my downfalls, but it is more that I am uncomfortable discussing them with you as usually it ends up being misinterpreted and not understood and me frustrated and unheard. (from my viewpoint - which is all I am trying to discuss with you here) **And on the internet misconstrued**

You seem incapable of understanding my view point. I know this will probably end in you saying it not all my fault (which I'm not saying this is your fault). I am trying to say that I am not strong enough to handle this dynamic any longer and I don't think that you are capable of helping me or being supportive (because of your own issues). We seem to compound each others problems.

Often, as I've said before, there isn't really room for me to be open. If someone is feeling helpless/hopeless or hesitant to bring something up. I don't usually interrupt whatever it is you are saying and often if I do (in the past) you have accused me of being to self focused. I'm not going to interrupt your rant about TYT or Poker to say by the way I'm feeling a lot of despair right now. It's not easy to say no matter what, although Teal and I managed to chuckle about life and how it can be so disparaging at times. It is reinforced by the fact that I know usually it ends up with me not being heard and feeling more disparaged and hopeless. The person I am co-existing with is unable to see anything from my point of view and seems dismiss a lot of things when I am emotional and you assume it to be nonsense.

I think of last September and how I wanted to die then, but never conveyed that to you really. Here I am a year later, still in the same boat. I still feel like we have this huge wall. I feel despair that I am unable to communicate any of my inner or vulnerable side as in the past you have said, I shouldn't need your support or love to be able to get through it. No I shouldn't, you are right, but now I don't believe you care because any time I conveyed that I needed some support over the first 10 months, you told me that I don't need it and denied me it in hopes that it would make me self grow or something. Maybe you just recently developed feelings for me, or whatever the case may be, I do notice you are now telling me you care a lot more. Instead I just feel uncomfortable talking about these things with you and also that you don't care (or incapable of being truly empathetic to me). Now you tell me you love me and that you want to be there for me, but then when I try to tell you difficult things like explaining our dynamic when I cave to you instead of being strong/sure that I have checked my motives and that it is indeed your ego at play, I still will take the blame if pushed enough. Instead of acknowledging my point and seeing what it is I'm trying to say, you add, or I could be wrong about you. See how this seem that you aren't really trying to understand what I am saying but instead trying to defend yourself. I know I can be a bitch and I know that you have reasons when you are upset, even if they aren't fully rational and I can even empathize with that as I can not be fully rational either. I am trying to explain to you why I want to leave and instead of really trying to get in my head space for yourself like you do for pedophiles and others, you just want to add that I could be wrong. Yes, valid (and not unacknowledged)......supportive and empathetic, no.

You talked last night about the dynamic between men and women and how often women end up feeling used as they expect something different after sleeping together. You also mentioned that you had no real intentions for a future with her and that she was an opportunity, someone around, so you were using her. So she did indeed have reason to feel that way, not just your lack of interest in her. I can say I have felt the same, that I have been an opportunity. A lot of your sexual exploits have been. If we hadn't moved in together, this wouldn't have happened. I'm not the love of your life, or someone you would have sought out. I was someone that you had mentally entertained in that way and then lived it out when the opportunity was there. I had protested that we shouldn't do it for those reasons. I was only interested if there was something more. You assured me there was but then set up all these rules, like I can only have sex with you so often and I can't really cuddle or kiss you and stuff and it ruined a lot of the dynamic between us and made me uncomfortable to just act normal around you. Things are getting better now, I feel more comfortable around you at times, but we are also a year later and one tired soul later.

I also feel like me sharing with you that bitchy email with Teal might have been what started the combat dynamics between us. I was really upset with you because of all these rules and regulations you put on me all in the name of being free, instead of just letting it develop and making me uncomfortable to just be me and see if you liked it or not. I really try not to bitch to Teal and I try to be fair in my bitching most of the time and I shared that with you as a gesture of openness and honesty so you could see that side of me existed. Instead you assumed I always do/did this and that that was the way I was and think and started defending yourself to Teal. I think this was where this combat dynamic took hold and when I started to feel I can't be open with you.


Here are some of the things that I have read lately.. have a look over and see why I might be concerned about the dynamic between us and be ready to admit my parts and failings in order to accept responsibility and hopefully move on. I have emotionally, physically and verbally abused you, but I in no way think this is one way. Nor can I solve anything by myself other than by just leaving. There are 2 when tangoing.

What is Emotional Abuse?

Abuse is any behavior that is designed to control and subjugate another human being through the use of fear, humiliation, intimidation, guilt, coercion, manipulation etc. Emotional abuse is any kind of abuse that is emotional rather than physical in nature. It can include anything from verbal abuse and constant criticism to more subtle tactics, such as repeated disapproval or even the refusal to ever be pleased.

Emotional abuse is like brain washing in that it systematically wears away at the victim's self-confidence, sense of self-worth, trust in their own perceptions, and self-concept. Whether it is done by constant berating and belittling, by intimidation, or under the guise of "guidance," "teaching", or "advice," the results are similar. Eventually, the recipient of the abuse loses all sense of self and remnants of personal value. Emotional abuse cuts to the very core of a person, creating scars that may be far deeper and more lasting that physical ones. In fact there is research to this effect. With emotional abuse, the insults, insinuations, criticism and accusations slowly eat away at the victim's self-esteem until she is incapable of judging the situation realistically. She has become so beaten down emotionally that she blames herself for the abuse. Her self-esteem is so low that she clings to the abuser.

Emotional abuse victims can become so convinced that they are worthless that they believe that no one else could want them. They stay in abusive situations because they believe they have nowhere else to go. Their ultimate fear is being all alone."



Please skim through the site, it seems good: (urls removed as per site request)


This is why I said to you that I think we are both involved in this and both abusers and abused. I think the only way to stop this dynamic is to really start looking at what we are doing and being responsible for our own actions. That is what I was trying to talk to you about and it seemed as though you wouldn't even contemplate that as being part of our dynamic coming from you. I fell into utter despair realizing that you weren't willing to accept what was going on and I scratched you somehow when I broke your cigarette. Then you said about me scratching you, so now I am inadvertently physically abusing you and you said I attacked you the other morning too when I didn't which added to my frustration with this. Also recognizing that although I hadn't "attacked" you as many times as you claim, that I still had a few times, which is disparaging in itself as to what it says about my mental state. I then grabbed the kitchen knife and decided if I can't stop hurting you even when I don't mean to and you aren't willing to accept its even happening instead you just still want to blame me, which means that we will never break the cycle. I wanted it to end. I didn't want to hurt you, I just wanted all the pain I felt to go away and for me to go away because I am part of problem. I came close to dying there and instead of it having the effect I thought it might, an appreciation for life, I find I still just feel like shit and dying when I am left alone and start thinking most of the time. Occasionally I have a few minutes of appreciation mixed in there though.

I know I treat myself badly. This doesn't mean that I want you to do the same and it doesn't give anyone the right to treat me unfairly either. I think that part of my problem with you stems from this as well. The cliche, I don't love myself so I don't experience the love of others correctly. I am unable to fully give and receive love, which means that I am always thinking you don't love me. I can see it objectively, most of the time, but often don't feel it or have to remind myself that it's there by thinking about it objectively and dismissing all the thoughts that are contrary. Now that might mean that you don't love me and I have to rationalize that you do as well, but I think this has to do with my self-loathing. Maybe I'm wrong though.

I have thought several times to myself that I "knew" that you loved me before you moved in because of the way you have acted towards me at times. Objectively it looked like that (objectively through my lenses). In reality, I was probably perceiving the behaviours the way I wanted, as love. Not the reality that you were subconsciously controlled by your desire for sex, started casting me and then eventually got comfortable with the idea and moved in and took the opportunity. I know you probably didn't mean any ill intent and that you thought there was a good possibility for us to be alright or something, but you certainly didn't love me and I did you. This may be why I feel more invested. This may be why we had such a harsh beginning. I thought you loved me, you didn't but cared a lot, I could sense the unbalance, I question you on it, you get defensive and think that I am doing the classical girl thing, but not maybe appreciating that I already did love you before we slept together. I just didn't ever really entertain the idea of us being together, at least not for a long time. This rift would probably cause mistrust maybe how we got started on this dynamic. Really just me theorizing about things I saw and from my view point how things seem. You can't change the way you feel either, so I'm not trying to blame you. I do believe you love me now anyways, I just think I although you claim otherwise that we did still have a bunch of delusions at the beginning. I think we had a short honey moon phase, but I think it still happened.

I really think I am codependent (url removed as per site request) with BLP (url removed as per site request)but think that DBT (url removed as per site request) would probably help as you pointed out before and skimming it really reminds me of that book I wanted to get (url removed as per site request). Along with continuing to read and expand my viewpoints I think I might be alright, but it's hard when our dynamic comes across combative for me not to fall into emotional distress. It's not your fault, it's just how unfortunately we have been interacting.

I love you lots, but I think you will probably read this and you will get mad by something I worded poorly so you think it is unfair and miss my blood and guts spewed out for you here. I'm not telling you this to blame you. I'm telling you this so you can understand me and I'm not yelling and what not. I really would like us to accept what is going on and start a new dynamic immediately or for us to part ways. I don't want to hurt you anymore and I don't want to hurt anymore. I understand I will and you will but not to this extent. This is unhealthy and very disruptive to both of our paths.

Please just put yourself in my head, don't condemn yourself or me. I'm trying not to. I just wanted to spill it all out there and not live in fear anymore. Because fear is the mind killer :)

Love,

Mandy[/quote]

-btw, he got stuck up on the emotional abuse links and spent the entire time discrediting that source instead of understanding what I was trying to say. It made it clear to me then he was incapable of seeing/hearing me and to what extent. I just keep wanting to believe him, so I do, and then I get all upset when we start down this road again. I get angrier and angrier each time I trust and then have it broken, but I should know better by now. How much pain do I need before I grow? It's obvious I identify too much with him and it is causing us both a world of trouble. If I didn't then I wouldn't be so shattered when he appears to be so delusional and lashing out, I just go, well look at that. Interesting. It's him and his problem, I need not make it mine. Sorry Ryan for doing so. I have enough problems I don't need to react to yours.
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I didn't respond because:

5 “If your brother or sister[a] sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
I figured at this point these forums are as close to a church community as he has. So I will leave him in your hands as he might listen to you.

He clearly isn't capable of seeing or listening to me, so I am leaving him in your hands. As I said, he doesn't listen to what I say, but just keeps attacking my character and deflecting.

I finally came to the point where logically, it was either your ego or you were insane or like it usually is, a blend of both. You were on Genius Forum saying stuff in such a skewed way that they were hardly recognizable. You adding motives and thought processes and some things that just didn't happen. A lot of it projections and when confronted upheld, it is me not you, and continue on with the projections and bashing. So I told him as much...either it's your ego or you are a psychopath or incapable of seeing reality (I understand some differences in view is natural, but his are fairly substantial.) I've also toyed with Aspergers like injury, as he fits a lot of those criteria, but not in a binding way, just a way to understand how to be empathetic and not see him as attacking when he is just struggling. I tried to talk to him about it, but ego got in the way. When confronted with what I was saying he said, it was his ego, he was mad and blowing things out of proportion and negatively skewing things. So I asked him to apologize for his slander. He said something about my stuff being slander too. I really tried to stay out of the defending things and slander. I erased over half of my responses that were purely ego based. If we did this with your responses we wouldn't have much content left. I again erased large portions after writing as they were just defense.

Yes you did apologize and I accepted it even though I still felt not addressed and unheard. Even though you continued to just discredit me as a person instead of see what I was saying, I took the apology as sincere. I accepted that at least you were willing to admit that you were skewing things, that's progress. I questioned the wording as you know full well complimenting someone on being a "wonderful woman" on this forum is actually more of an insult, so I asked. You said you were genuine and I accepted that.


Then Thomas takes a few pokes at you and it reminds your ego to get upset. I apologized when I looked you in the eye and apologized I recognized my downfalls and asked you to encourage/remind me in a loving way when I start to raise my voice so that I can get out of the habit of yelling at you and then we can work on not escalating things together. I was pretty reserved and calm with my dealings last weekend, trying to move pass this as you seemed to indicate it was what you desired as well.

Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears. ~Marcus Aurelius
as copy and pasted from you Ryan.

Then, Thomas, takes a few jabs. What happens, you go back to bashing me and your brother and complaining I didn't apologize because now you feel hurt again. Ego lashing about in a destructive manner. You say I am worse than you for pot, your brother knows nothing because he wacks off and plays video games, much like you did for the majority of your life. I'm sorry that I shared with you your brother's problem with masturbating. Clearly you can't keep a secret either. If you were truly empathetic for people you wouldn't take something shared with you in private and use it to make a point or discredit your brother on-line (where he is not going to be defending himself) when hurt. Where is your empathy for your brother's situation? You know full well, it used to be yours. Why would I share my downfalls, you keep coming on here and using them as weapons when you are angry? That is why I say you are not truly empathetic. You get hurt and the gloves come off and you throw very hurtful assumptions around with no regard for others. I shouldn't be associated with someone who takes other's problems and my feelings so blatantly disrespectful. This is why your brother and sister are not speaking with you right now.

He started yelling at me in the car for not apologizing, yelling about his brother. He later called his brother and yelled at him too. Interestingly enough though, most of his rant was verbatim his responses to Thomas, which probably means, he was covert malicing for awhile and then unloaded when he saw me. He was also discussing it with a co-worker when I showed up to pick him up from work. Then he called his brother and unloaded as I guess the forum wasn't enough. I didn't have to react, I didn't at first, but I lost sight of the big picture. Instead I got stuck in, I believed you were actually sorry, I believed we were moving on, I was looking forward to not fighting. IE, stuck in my own ego and expectations of things going okay for a few days. Instead of accepting that yep, this is what is happening. I did some yelling and screaming and punched him in the back of the head, punched his car a few times and threw the coffee table. All while saying, I can't believe you would do this, I can't believe you are doing this. I lost sight of the fact that I knew what was going on, someone insulted him on the forum and he was taking it out on me. Someone picked a scab and the wrath of Ryan was released.

I tried to tell him his brother didn't call him a psychopath or that other's don't refer to him that way, that is the impression he got from our conversation at 6 am while I was drunk and I said other's think you are psycho kind of off the cuff, it was a generalization. Others think he has some problems and are empathetic towards them, but he refuses to see it or accept it. His brother said that he was always concerned for his lack of genuine remorse in situations for his actions. That is all he said. He often also said, but don't take what I am saying as finite truth, as I am clearly biased, I want you two to break up and I am not currently talking to my brother. He also often said, I can see what Ryan is saying when he complains that you do that because I've been there. Hence actually solidifying that you were someone accurate in conveying a behavior of mine. All you think is that we sat around and talked about how psycho you are and your brother sucked my ass because he is pussy whipped. I've tried several times to tell you different. You won't accept, now you have flamed him and yelled/text fought with him again.

Where is your empathy for this man? Your brother? Whom you are now living in his house, sleeping with his one and only ex-girlfriend and calling him, yelling at him, texting him and verbally bashing him on-line. Do you realize how hard it would be for him to even be objective at all? It must have taken his entirety to not just say, yeah he's a fuck head, stay clear. That's why I cried out of my empathy for him, when I saw how you weren't willing to give him any benefit of the doubt in return and not even willing to take correction when I point out that is not what happened or is not the case. Now look at you on here saying the things you are about him, no wonder he doesn't trust to share things like his masturbation problem with you. If you know you are delusional like you say, how come you can't accept when someone clearly states several times that your assumption is not the case.

"Abulia, Apathy and damage to the Caudate Nucleus, or the Ventromedial Prefrontal Cortex and/or the tissues connecting it to the limbic system"

If you are so open about your faults, then how come when challenged you keep going through your cycle. Read through the thread, and look at yourself. Look at how you responded. If this is your problem that you think you have, how come you've never discussed that with me? I've never heard you use those terms or say those things before and I live with you. If you are as easy to admit dellusion as you say, how come you never did throughout all of the challenges placed on you here? How come you say things like "But of course, she is innocent. I am far smarter, and I know enough to figure all this out. That itself secures the beastly influence in its place." Indeed, statements like that do secure the beastly influence in it's place (ego). You are here because you think you are fundementally deluded, just nobody point it out, kk?

I wanted you guys to challenge him, it's okay if he lashes back at home. I shouldn't have trusted that he could do/be different then where he is currently at. He keeps doing it again and again. It's actually kind of sad, but I can also come back and read this when I start to get roped in by my ego and start to forget the reality of my situation. It is what it is, I'm done fighting it and you, Ryan. I'm sorry we can't relate. I'm sorry that I start to believe we can and fall into that trap and then get utterly disappointed and hurt when we don't. All these people that you think are bashing you are not. They actually lovingly just say that you are what you are and it doesn't seem to fit with me very well as evidenced by my freaking out and being angry smashing things. I don't hide from them what I do, you just think I do, maybe because you do.

Even now you think I am trying to write your brother and bitch about you instead of responding to you. We're having a good ole private laugh about you, right? If you were truly sorry, you wouldn't have reverted back to slandering me or your brother when your ego was offended. Your apologies are empty because you keep doing them as you are apologizing. It appears you only apologized because you wanted one back. If that was not the case you probably wouldn't have reverted back, when it didn't happen.

Peace my friends, I will refrain from responding again. Enjoy your forums, I will no longer use them for my personal battles. May the truth set you free, because freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbR1Dz8W ... re=related

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Gee Animus, do you realize those short replies already contains three or four typical responses of people diagnosed in the same way?

Let me point out the most important ones as they might keep you from thinking a bit further along. First, being diagnosed with this or that doesn't mean you suddenly cannot reason correctly about anything or yourself, cannot come up with good solutions or approaches or are making things up all the time. That is you being overly defensive, with large black and white dismissive gesture, nothing more. If you had a heart disease it would not mean you are fucked up either. If you suffered from gluttony, your whole family might point out your fat and the obvious large food intake but it wouldn't mean you'd be less or dysfunctional on all other accounts.

You can still be superior to others in many ways but still have one blind spot to things that might be obvious to many others around you. This is something you need to get over, really. Swallow it! No matter how much you study, that might be only become more fuel for your defensiveness. Acting like nobody knows and understand poor little you, as if others didn't have lives along similar paths or dealt with similar people. You think you are so unique of course. And you obviously often use many names and terms more to detract than to reason with. How do you know you're applying them right anyway? Any peers?

Furthermore you show in your posts here loads of irritation, verbal aggression (defensiveness), lack of interest in the possible consequences of your behavior to others, manipulation, trying to justify your errors, possibly by lying or remembering things differently (strong coloration), pointing out constantly the fault of others while nobody is forcing you to stay there, etc.

It's possible your partner has issues as well, it takes two to tango but there can only be one who takes responsibility for you and your whole situation. It needs to be you, no matter the amount of technicalities and horseshit you keep bringing on, all the deflecting drama.

[Satan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opfa0yPmiDc

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

If you two are going to do this here, would it still be gauche to butt in and comment?

Speaking on behalf of what I believe is appropriate, anything posted publicly immediately opens the situation to comment by anyone who has a right to be in that public area - with the possible exception of posting private information without the permission of the other, which should be removed rather than commented on unless the other person has become okay with the public posting of said information.

I didn't read all of the last couple of pages yet; I read some and skimmed most of the rest, but I would like to insert a few things now (one being the above).

Welcome to the board Mandy. I don't know how much you know about here, but I hope you have had the chance to read these two posts introducing the forums.

Since both of you seem keen to the point of using real names, I wonder if you might send a pm to Kevin Solway requesting that your screen names be changed to your real names. I am particularly interested in Mandy doing this because she has chosen the screen name "Satan" which, especially in theological discussions, could become confusing.

as he avoided Elizabeth Isabel (sorry he told me your name before, but I can't recall right now.)

That's close - you just got the spelling of my last name wrong. Yes, "Isabelle" is my actual last name, listed as such on my driver's license and everything.

I'll read through the rest of the exchange over time. The last 2 pages is a lot to go through at once.

[Animus]

You wanted examples where I said I was sorry without blaming you.... here are a few recent ones: Why

I should I even bother proving this to you? You have access to this information in your own email to seek the truth of

your own biases, but instead refuse to look and reflect on what it is you do.

I don't know, maybe that is true Mandy. I really try to look at myself and feel like I make progress once in a while. I try

my best to look at criticism squarely. When you said that you thought I was self-absorbed I set aside my

attachments to the charge and heard what you had to say. I tried to understand what you meant and once figuring it

out I reflected on whether or not it might be true. I found that in some respects it was true. Now the question came

to me whether or not this concept of self-absorption was entirely good or bad. I didn't get upset about it initially. After

hearing and accepting your point of view and giving you some additional perspective from me, you began to enjoy

using the term self-absorbed and often within colloquial contexts. Like all of these things; Aspergers, Psychopathy,

Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, Egotism. They are handy ways to cast me in thought-form. I actually happen to have

studied these "disorders" and see through their basic non-existence. To be honest, to pick one of them instead of

going into a more in-depth analysis, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder would have best characterized the way I was 20

years ago. When I was a member of the Concerned Veteran's Coalition and I visited war vets I got another look at

what this means. I told you I talked to Barrie who served in the Canadian Army and we talked about PTSD and the fact

that many veterans just want to go into the bush because they are incensed at the petty grievances of the general

public. After witnessing highly traumatic events in war finding the empathy for a mild agitation is difficult. For

someone to make large demands for empathy from a PTSD sufferer is in some respects highly unjust and

unempathetic itself. It is the behavior of someone so absorbed in their own petty issues that they can't see the

people they are relying on are suffering just as bad or worse. Since suffering a highly traumatic near-death injury in

early childhood and subsequently suffering a form of memory loss, I have had to find ways of adapting and relearning

how to be a person in this society. Threads of this are all over my behavior. This is why I find so much issue with

"society" and why I try so hard to be empathetic myself and to take up concern for other human beings whom I have

no connection to otherwise.

-btw, he got stuck up on the emotional abuse links and spent the entire time discrediting that source instead of

understanding what I was trying to say. It made it clear to me then he was incapable of seeing/hearing me and to

what extent. I just keep wanting to believe him, so I do, and then I get all upset when we start down this road again. I

get angrier and angrier each time I trust and then have it broken, but I should know better by now. How much pain do

I need before I grow? It's obvious I identify too much with him and it is causing us both a world of trouble. If I didn't

then I wouldn't be so shattered when he appears to be so delusional and lashing out, I just go, well look at that.

Interesting. It's him and his problem, I need not make it mine. Sorry Ryan for doing so. I have enough problems I don't

need to react to yours.

You get angry instantaneously whenever I make criticism of you. My best analysis includes the instantaneous shift in

your perception which occurred after we first slept together. The next morning you became very clingy and insecure

about our relationship. It was not off to a good start, but that pretty much came to characterize our whole

relationship. Originally I did not want to have sex, but I did. I was battling the desire to do it at all. And I said that my idea

of a relationship consisted of two individuals who were open and honest with each other while respecting the others

right to do whatever he/she ultimately decides of their own will, and to be supportive in those endeavors wherein

they do not conflict with one's own values. That we could be supporting pillars for each other on our mutual pilgrimage

to the Celestial City. You seemed to like all this dramatic portrayal of what are highly-sophisticated human relations

with the goal in mind of respecting individuality and the pursuit of life and truth. But I quickly became to feel as if I

needed to be constantly at your feet proving my love to you. Just the way it is portrayed in some philosophy and

drama. And I didn't want to become your slave because you were insecure about our relationship. It occurred to me at

some point that you were actually just insecure in general. You like to compare me to past boyfriends who have

abused you. I thought the emotional abuse material was fairly myopic and wasn't interested in finding another

category/label to attach either of us to.

-----------------------------------------------------------
I didn't respond because:

5 “If your brother or sister[a] sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to

you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be

established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if

they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
I figured at this point these forums are as close to a church community as he has. So I will leave him in your hands as

he might listen to you.

This is likely to be something I have had problems with. I do tend to talk openly. It is something I have had a lot of

difficulty with. There may actually be a very good reason for me struggling with this. Perhaps I am a causeless entity

who creates his self out of the abyss. Or perhaps my behavior in this regard is contextual. Its something I've

examined quite closely.

He clearly isn't capable of seeing or listening to me, so I am leaving him in your hands. As I said, he doesn't listen to

what I say, but just keeps attacking my character and deflecting.

What you say winds up to be an attack on my character a lot of the time. I don't necessarily deflect, as when you said

I was self-absorbed. But I rarely agree with your point-of-view. I have said that I may understand your point of view

but not agree with it on account of the fact that I've worked out others. I refer to several years of lonely inquiry to

which you have complained "You think you are superior!". To which I have clearly stated "You don't go to a car mechanic

to build a bridge." All this means is that there is such a thing as superiority with respect to understanding. It's not

necessarily an enjoyable fact, but it is a fact.

I finally came to the point where logically, it was either your ego or you were insane or like it usually is, a blend of both.

You were on Genius Forum saying stuff in such a skewed way that they were hardly recognizable. You adding

motives and thought processes and some things that just didn't happen. A lot of it projections and when confronted

upheld, it is me not you, and continue on with the projections and bashing. So I told him as much...either it's your ego

or you are a psychopath or incapable of seeing reality (I understand some differences in view is natural, but his are

fairly substantial.) I've also toyed with Aspergers like injury, as he fits a lot of those criteria, but not in a binding way,

just a way to understand how to be empathetic and not see him as attacking when he is just struggling. I tried to talk

to him about it, but ego got in the way. When confronted with what I was saying he said, it was his ego, he was mad

and blowing things out of proportion and negatively skewing things. So I asked him to apologize for his slander. He

said something about my stuff being slander too. I really tried to stay out of the defending things and slander. I

erased over half of my responses that were purely ego based. If we did this with your responses we wouldn't have

much content left. I again erased large portions after writing as they were just defense.

Your point-of-view, to my sadness, generally considers of one or two negative assumptions about the quality of my

character and the nature of my intentions. Very rarely does it contain a balanced account of your own contributions. I

have failed to communicate with you because I have taken a very sophisticated and abstract view of the world and

shared it with you with respect to your own behavior. I have suggested that we all find our existence in the fact that

we exist psychologically. Without the reality of our self-consciousness, I have said, we would not exist at all.

Furthermore, I argued plenty of times, nothing would exist without self-consciousness. However, for this reality to

exist there also occurs an obscurity of its own nature through the schism of the self and the conscious creating the

self-conscious. With this central schism, wherein the self exists apart from everything else, a process of

discrimination is afoot. This self finds its identity in discriminating parts of reality and identifying with them. Because

this is the basic function of the thing which must exist for existence... it necessarily runs through our entire being. I

have looked hard and long for these threads and tried to share them with others. They have found me to be insane,

and insensitive, because my views always contain a certain amount of selfishness. But how could they not without

also being delusional? So when you come up with Aspergers, Psychopathy, Self-absorption, Emotional Abuse or

anything else and share that with me. I may consider it but I'm not going to jump up and down with excitement over

having a new label to put on. Maybe it is superior, I don't know, and I don't even care, I just can't do what doesn't make

sense to me, and my sense has worked out something different. I have had to learn that most people continue to

see the world in fairly narrow and selfish ways. It is not so much what I want, but what is actually the case. I do not

attach myself to this viewpoint because it is the favored viewpoint of a philosophical martyr, but because I have been

reluctantly forced to see it when trying to communicate. The slightest criticism of self-identity and people go

bonkers. This is common sense, of course, but its easy to lose sight of when you've surpassed it yourself. Having

empathy for others is extremely easy if you share the same narrow-minded view they do.

Yes you did apologize and I accepted it even though I still felt not addressed and unheard. Even though you continued

to just discredit me as a person instead of see what I was saying, I took the apology as sincere. I accepted that at

least you were willing to admit that you were skewing things, that's progress. I questioned the wording as you know

full well complimenting someone on being a "wonderful woman" on this forum is actually more of an insult, so I asked.

You said you were genuine and I accepted that.

You don't admit much to skewing things. It is seriously addling my mind to think about how much I have put into

rooting out ego in my own mind, and undoing my own bias. How I try to listen attentively to you categorizing me and

actually consider the truth. How I have meditate and in my heart determined truth to be the highest value above

anything else that therein resides. How I have spent years and read hundreds of books regarding my pursuit however

unconsciously,. and yet, you still want to keep harping on how biased I am. I didn't use "wonderful woman" in a

deragatory way, I said both words as what they are You are a "woman" matter of factly. If you interpret some

negativity in that, that is your bias, if others detect that, it is their bias. The truth may be that the discussion was all

in the context of our relationship, that between a man and a woman, and I was referring to you as the "woman" in

that context. Maybe you accept it maybe you don't. You are split-minded and inconsistent like everyone else is.

Then Thomas takes a few pokes at you and it reminds your ego to get upset. I apologized when I looked you in the

eye and apologized I recognized my downfalls and asked you to encourage/remind me in a loving way when I start to

raise my voice so that I can get out of the habit of yelling at you and then we can work on not escalating things

together. I was pretty reserved and calm with my dealings last weekend, trying to move pass this as you seemed to

indicate it was what you desired as well.

Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears. ~Marcus Aurelius
as copy and pasted from you Ryan.

You do treat my life pretty lightly. Otherwise you might see that the term "psychopath" was attributed to me a lot in

my youth and had a very stigmatic effect on me. I became widely known as "psycho" and people used to approach

me and beat the living shit out of me while yelling that at me. I also tried very hard during that time to do as Marcus

says and reject my sense of having the shit kicked-out of me, or that I was made to be a psycho by the very people

who were acting violently and abusing me. I also tried to cope with you using that term and wanting to stick it to me

for your own reasons, somewhat, to justify beating me up and hating on me. If I had any buttons Mandy, you

smashed on one of the biggest of them. I swallowed it initially, but it bothered me that "everyone" thought I was

"psycho" it brought up a lot of memories and a lot of angst. I sought out a co-worker who would tell me I'm not a

psycho, and then another, and my mother, call it what you will. You found it necessary to lean on others so that they

would re-inforce your views. I'm not a perfect human being, I don't claim to be, and I try not to pick at things like this in

other people. You do and then blame it on me. I tried to talk to you about my past and how much it has affected me

and how I've tried to overcome it. And to justify your own shitty emotional response to life you actually succeed in

attacking me in a way that cuts to the very core, and non-chalantly everyone on Genius jumps on the bandwagon. Its

just such a fuckin' self-righteous and narrow-minded "This or That" labelling bullshit that kids in my highschool did to

me 20 years ago.

Then, Thomas, takes a few jabs. What happens, you go back to bashing me and your brother and complaining I didn't

apologize because now you feel hurt again. Ego lashing about in a destructive manner. You say I am worse than you

for pot, your brother knows nothing because he wacks off and plays video games, much like you did for the majority

of your life. I'm sorry that I shared with you your brother's problem with masturbating. Clearly you can't keep a

secret either. If you were truly empathetic for people you wouldn't take something shared with you in private and

use it to make a point or discredit your brother on-line (where he is not going to be defending himself) when hurt.

Where is your empathy for your brother's situation? You know full well, it used to be yours. Why would I share my

downfalls, you keep coming on here and using them as weapons when you are angry? That is why I say you are not

truly empathetic. You get hurt and the gloves come off and you throw very hurtful assumptions around with no

regard for others. I shouldn't be associated with someone who takes other's problems and my feelings so blatantly

disrespectful. This is why your brother and sister are not speaking with you right now.

You are right, I'm not big on secrets. I don't like having a completely warped view of my parents break-up just because

my mother thinks I can't handle it or that I will hate my father if I know who he really is. Yet, somehow, you find out

about it. What the fuck? Now my mother is worried that you told me, so I have to pretend like you didn't? What the

fuck? Where is the truth and reality in your world-view? Why are there so many secrets? You have conversations

behind my back and constantly fall back on friends when you want to feel justified. You toss narrow-minded labels at

me expecting me to swallow them with a smile and a kiss that actually open up doors to a very painful past and

preach secrecy and delusion and somehow I am unempathetic? Your worldview is upside down and anyone who

agrees with you. Which are evidently more people than I thought, I suppose I had more faith in humanity than I

thought.

He started yelling at me in the car for not apologizing, yelling about his brother. He later called his brother and yelled

at him too. Interestingly enough though, most of his rant was verbatim his responses to Thomas, which probably

means, he was covert malicing for awhile and then unloaded when he saw me. He was also discussing it with a

co-worker when I showed up to pick him up from work. Then he called his brother and unloaded as I guess the forum

wasn't enough. I didn't have to react, I didn't at first, but I lost sight of the big picture. Instead I got stuck in, I believed

you were actually sorry, I believed we were moving on, I was looking forward to not fighting. IE, stuck in my own ego

and expectations of things going okay for a few days. Instead of accepting that yep, this is what is happening. I did

some yelling and screaming and punched him in the back of the head, punched his car a few times and threw the

coffee table. All while saying, I can't believe you would do this, I can't believe you are doing this. I lost sight of the fact

that I knew what was going on, someone insulted him on the forum and he was taking it out on me. Someone picked

a scab and the wrath of Ryan was released.

I "started" telling you that I was talking to Ted about what you said and at least someone doesn't think I'm a

psychopath or an egotist. You started to freak out and wanting me to re-swallow the labels. You screamed "I CAN'T

BELIEVE YOU ARE DOING THIS!!!" and then started flailing and smashing the window. You grabbed the coffees out of the

holster and flung them all over the car and continued flailing about while screaming and undoing your seatbelt. I was

afraid you would jump out of the car so I stopped. YOu did jump out of the car about 10 feet from our driveway and I

pulled in after you safely passed in-front of me. But you can believe whatever you want to Mandy, that is the beauty

of "free-will".

Cut to later, I am trying to head back to work because I have overspent my lunch-break and I am already walking a

thin-line with my employer. You come outside and alternately sit in the driver's seat and stand behind the vehicle while

arguing with me. You try to tear the windhsield wiper off my car and slam my door into the side of the house several

times. Then you eventually go back inside and come back out but slip on the icy steps and fall and hurt your ankle. I get

out of the car and ask "Are you okay?" out of genuine concern because I think you may be seriously injured. You reject

my concern as if I was a psychopath... Then stand behind the car again and stop me from leaving again. Finally when

you did let me leave you said something which I do not remember currently but which indicated to me you might not

be safe by yourself. I called my brother to tell him if he cared about you, and considering he has helped to make you

doubt me, he can help you calm down. I was stretched out to my limits, still feeling like somehow I'm being horribly

warped into a demon by your psychotic mind and my brother's pent-up hatred of me. I lost it, like I said I'm not a

perfect human being. The part I cut out included you trashing the coffee table, me further trashing the coffee table,

and you punching me in the head. BECAUSE I DISAGREE.

I tried to tell him his brother didn't call him a psychopath or that other's don't refer to him that way, that is the

impression he got from our conversation at 6 am while I was drunk and I said other's think you are psycho kind of off

the cuff, it was a generalization. Others think he has some problems and are empathetic towards them, but he

refuses to see it or accept it. His brother said that he was always concerned for his lack of genuine remorse in

situations for his actions. That is all he said. He often also said, but don't take what I am saying as finite truth, as I am

clearly biased, I want you two to break up and I am not currently talking to my brother. He also often said, I can see

what Ryan is saying when he complains that you do that because I've been there. Hence actually solidifying that you

were someone accurate in conveying a behavior of mine. All you think is that we sat around and talked about how

psycho you are and your brother sucked my ass because he is pussy whipped. I've tried several times to tell you

different. You won't accept, now you have flamed him and yelled/text fought with him again.

My brother has said to my face "you are the most insensitive person I know." This came after I spent 20 lonely

minutes crying about my brother's personal plight in the shed behind our house. I couldn't help it and didn't try to help

it. He says all kinds of shit like that about me to make up for the pain he has felt from our shared history. That helps

him blame shit on me and make himself feel better. He's never talked to me. He talks about Stephen King novels and

World of Warcraft lore. I talk about philosophy, psychology, physics and facts. He responds by picking on me and

devaluing what I say. My mother thinks he is childish. Keep in mind that he is not speaking to her right now either. He

hasn't been for years, he keeps grudges against everyone from two decades ago. Sadly, little of it is actually true as

you well know, as it is, I'm not supposed to know that what we thought happened didn't happen and something else

happened. I'm sick of delusion. Knowing that about my father is not going to turn me against him, there are no sides.

You did go out to the bar with my brother, your ex-boyfriend, who is not currently talking to me and holds grudges

against me from ages ago, and you did talk about me and he did distort who I am because he has a distorted perspective. He was somewhat conscious of this as indicated by his stating it. But he nevertheless said what he said and the first thing we got into when you got hom drunk was how I must be this or that. Well, actually at first you said "I don't know if I can leave you with Lila (my cat)." Presumably because I am not responsible enough to look after my cat. You always cast aspergions like this at me and expect me to swallow them. I said "So what? You are leaving?" and you said something about everyone leading you to think that I must be either a psychopath or an egotist. But obviously not an egotist like you but a supreme egotist. Your egotism is all the kind of victimhood that completely justifies what you do.

Where is your empathy for this man? Your brother? Whom you are now living in his house, sleeping with his one and

only ex-girlfriend and calling him, yelling at him, texting him and verbally bashing him on-line. Do you realize how hard it

would be for him to even be objective at all? It must have taken his entirety to not just say, yeah he's a fuck head,

stay clear. That's why I cried out of my empathy for him, when I saw how you weren't willing to give him any benefit

of the doubt in return and not even willing to take correction when I point out that is not what happened or is not the

case. Now look at you on here saying the things you are about him, no wonder he doesn't trust to share things like

his masturbation problem with you. If you know you are delusional like you say, how come you can't accept when

someone clearly states several times that your assumption is not the case.

You are also unwilling to see that it is the case. My brother does not give ME empathy, he gives my empathy to you because he can easily impress you and support you, to relate to me requires him to be a fucking man. I have empathy for him, Lord knows I do, and so does anyone who honestly listens to what I have to say about him. You are apparently deluded as to who he is, while those same people who consistute "Everyone" excluding my brother, tend to see him as I do. He is caught up in his own victimhood himself, he won't talk to his parents because they weren't/aren't good enough for him. When he bought his new TV he referred to it as "50 happy inches". He is completely engrossed in materialism and loathe to get out of it. I try to help him by talking to him about philosophical principles, and he makes a mockery of me. He is a child in a man's body. I have compassion for that, I do. And for how hard he tries, but he is also unwilling to accept any guidance or point of view from me because his fucking ego is so massive. Making it even more ironic. You know I believe in truth, and I never told you the nasty things he has said about you when you two were fighting, or to justify your break-up. He keeps a lot "secret" too. And I guess, so do I. And I guess I have some empathy for him by not telling you what he has said about you. But I will say this, he has clearly complained about you to both of our parents because they tend to say to me "That's exactly what your brother complained about." It is fucking iconic the way he plays the moral high-ground with respect to me. I haven't related to him in the best way possible either, but Jesus Christ, forgive and forget sometimes. My mother had me admitted to the psychiatric ward of the hospital, and she doesn't even remember it, yet I still talk to her and recognize that she dealt with life as best she could and whether or not she remembers it is something besides. I don't hold onto shit the way my brother does, again making all these characterizations of me doubly hypocritical.

"Abulia, Apathy and damage to the Caudate Nucleus, or the Ventromedial Prefrontal Cortex and/or the tissues

connecting it to the limbic system"

If you are so open about your faults, then how come when challenged you

keep going through your cycle. Read through the thread, and look at yourself. Look at how you responded. If this is

your problem that you think you have, how come you've never discussed that with me? I've never heard you use

those terms or say those things before and I live with you. If you are as easy to admit dellusion as you say, how

come you never did throughout all of the challenges placed on you here? How come you say things like "But of course,

she is innocent. I am far smarter, and I know enough to figure all this out. That itself secures the beastly influence in

its place." Indeed, statements like that do secure the beastly influence in it's place (ego). You are here because you

think you are fundementally deluded, just nobody point it out, kk?

I have spoken about Abulia quite a bit before, particularly back when I was reading Francis Crick, it correlates with BA42 (I believe) in the human brain. I've also periodically spoken about it from time to time. There are a lot of things I tend to talk about that you tend to not hear. My statement about me being smarter was sarcastic as it relates to responsibility. I think the only way you are going to see genuine good motives in me is to actually look as if they might be there. Or maybe I get frustrated and fall off away from perfection once in a while. I may have issues, but I try to understand them, and unless pushed to extremes I don't react violently the way you readily do. You can twist everything around into my issues and continue to pass-off your own fucking insanity as an artefact of me not caring, that's your "free-will".

I wanted you guys to challenge him, it's okay if he lashes back at home. I shouldn't have trusted that he could do/be

different then where he is currently at. He keeps doing it again and again. It's actually kind of sad, but I can also come

back and read this when I start to get roped in by my ego and start to forget the reality of my situation. It is what it

is, I'm done fighting it and you, Ryan. I'm sorry we can't relate. I'm sorry that I start to believe we can and fall into that

trap and then get utterly disappointed and hurt when we don't. All these people that you think are bashing you are

not. They actually lovingly just say that you are what you are and it doesn't seem to fit with me very well as

evidenced by my freaking out and being angry smashing things. I don't hide from them what I do, you just think I do,

maybe because you do.

I wanted these guys to be a challenge too. And at some point they were, but after coming here for several years now, I've learned that everyone here assumes the worst of everyone else here and they love to pick at each others sores. Quite often their opinions of each other are myopic and hateful rather than genuinely constructive. It is somewhat amusing to see two members banter back and forth about the same too-tired issues. But its also disheartening when one considers that I thought this place was the best for discourse.

Even now you think I am trying to write your brother and bitch about you instead of responding to you. We're having a

good ole private laugh about you, right? If you were truly sorry, you wouldn't have reverted back to slandering me or

your brother when your ego was offended. Your apologies are empty because you keep doing them as you are

apologizing. It appears you only apologized because you wanted one back. If that was not the case you probably

wouldn't have reverted back, when it didn't happen.

You like to keep things like that secret from me and wait until I get agitated by your secrecy. Congratulations Mandy, your mind-games work. First of all, you hardly apologize at all and when you do it is vapid like fucking air. YOu apologize for hitting me and a few days later you are back to doing it. You have gone from attacking me and sobbing uncontrollably one day, to apologizing to me the next and taking 'full' responsibility, then then next day you are beatin g me up and justifying your fucked up mind again.

I loved you and I tried really hard. I pushed myself to think "Love is the only answer. Just love and eventually it will work out." but it didn't, no matter how hard I tried. Even as I was loving you, you were accusing me of being uncaring. I came way out of my comfort zone to appeal to you and you shit in my brain. I am deluded, I'm deluded in thinking that you were something besides the usual psychotic bullshit. I never tried to compare you to past girlfriends, and especially not Crystal, but in the end, you both suffer a similar compulsion of hating your significant other and thinking up all kinds of deluded reasons for how you feel that make your partner out to be a shit. Good luck with that. I am perfectly okay with being imperfect and vainly striving toward perfection, on my own if I have to. You go hang out with the porn-addicted materialists with victim mentalities and get lots of people around you to complain about me and Riley and Scott and others to. The one person you don't complain much about is my brother, because being his first girlfriend at the age of 28, he fucking broke himself for you and he grew to resent it, and that is why he was okay with breaking up with you. What he said to me when I told him we were together now. He basically agreed that you are way too demanding and selfish when it comes to your emotions and thoughts. He may have softly, and kindly said "you do stuff like that" when you talked to him, meanwhile talking about me he would have been harsher because I wasn't there. But when you aren't there, he speaks harsher about you. That is why I never wanted to involve others in figuring out these things, but you can't fucking help it. Alright, then, piss off, I'm through with this myopia. YOu can't see what's really going on and you don't want to, you want to help yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFAE7zv6 ... re=related

[Animus]

Gee Animus, do you realize those short replies already contains three or four typical responses of people diagnosed in the same way?

Let me point out the most important ones as they might keep you from thinking a bit further along. First, being diagnosed with this or that doesn't mean you suddenly cannot reason correctly about anything or yourself, cannot come up with good solutions or approaches or are making things up all the time. That is you being overly defensive, with large black and white dismissive gesture, nothing more. If you had a heart disease it would not mean you are fucked up either. If you suffered from gluttony, your whole family might point out your fat and the obvious large food intake but it wouldn't mean you'd be less or dysfunctional on all other accounts.

You can still be superior to others in many ways but still have one blind spot to things that might be obvious to many others around you. This is something you need to get over, really. Swallow it! No matter how much you study, that might be only become more fuel for your defensiveness. Acting like nobody knows and understand poor little you, as if others didn't have lives along similar paths or dealt with similar people. You think you are so unique of course. And you obviously often use many names and terms more to detract than to reason with. How do you know you're applying them right anyway? Any peers?

Furthermore you show in your posts here loads of irritation, verbal aggression (defensiveness), lack of interest in the possible consequences of your behavior to others, manipulation, trying to justify your errors, possibly by lying or remembering things differently (strong coloration), pointing out constantly the fault of others while nobody is forcing you to stay there, etc.

It's possible your partner has issues as well, it takes two to tango but there can only be one who takes responsibility for you and your whole situation. It needs to be you, no matter the amount of technicalities and horseshit you keep bringing on, all the deflecting drama.

My partner is playing games with you. But go on. Keep on with your narrow-minded interpretation of the events. You clearly are superior Diebert. Fuck, I just want to stick your cock in my mouth. You are so brilliant!

[Animus]

This is rather categorical, but if that's what kind of language you speak.

Posttraumatic stress disorder (also known as post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD) is a severe anxiety disorder that can develop after exposure to any event that results in psychological trauma.[1][2][3] This event may involve the threat of death to oneself or to someone else, or to one's own or someone else's physical, sexual, or psychological integrity,[1] overwhelming the individual's ability to cope. As an effect of psychological trauma, PTSD is less frequent and more enduring than the more commonly seen acute stress response.
Diagnostic symptoms for PTSD include re-experiencing the original trauma(s) through flashbacks or nightmares, avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma, and increased arousal – such as difficulty falling or staying asleep, anger, and hypervigilance. Formal diagnostic criteria (both DSM-IV-TR and ICD-9) require that the symptoms last more than one month and cause significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.[1]

Posttraumatic stress disorder is classified as an anxiety disorder, characterized by aversive anxiety-related experiences, behaviors, and physiological responses that develop after exposure to a psychologically traumatic event (sometimes months after). Its features persist for longer than 30 days, which distinguishes it from the briefer acute stress disorder. These persisting posttraumatic stress symptoms cause significant disruptions of one or more important areas of life function.[4] It has three sub-forms: acute, chronic, and delayed-onset.[5]

Criteria
The diagnostic criteria for PTSD, stipulated in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (Text Revision) (DSM-IV-TR), may be summarized as:[1][56]
[edit]A: Exposure to a traumatic event
This must have involved both (a) loss of "physical integrity", or risk of serious injury or death, to self or others, and (b) a response to the event that involved intense fear, horror or helplessness (or in children, the response must involve disorganized or agitated behavior). (The DSM-IV-TR criterion differs substantially from the previous DSM-III-R stressor criterion, which specified the traumatic event should be of a type that would cause "significant symptoms of distress in almost anyone," and that the event was "outside the range of usual human experience."[57])

[edit]B: Persistent re-experiencing
One or more of these must be present in the victim: flashback memories, recurring distressing dreams, subjective re-experiencing of the traumatic event(s), or intense negative psychological or physiological response to any objective or subjective reminder of the traumatic event(s).

[edit]C: Persistent avoidance and emotional numbing
This involves a sufficient level of:
avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma, such as certain thoughts or feelings, or talking about the event(s);
avoidance of behaviors, places, or people that might lead to distressing memories;
inability to recall major parts of the trauma(s), or decreased involvement in significant life activities;
decreased capacity (down to complete inability) to feel certain feelings;
an expectation that one's future will be somehow constrained in ways not normal to other people.

[edit]D: Persistent symptoms of increased arousal not present before
These are all physiological response issues, such as difficulty falling or staying asleep, or problems with anger, concentration, or hypervigilance.

[edit]E: Duration of symptoms for more than 1 month
If all other criteria are present, but 30 days have not elapsed, the individual is diagnosed with Acute stress disorder.

[edit]F: Significant impairment
The symptoms reported must lead to "clinically significant distress or impairment" of major domains of life activity, such as social relations, occupational activities, or other "important areas of functioning".[58]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttrauma ... s_disorder

I had plenty of these symptoms, primarily 20 years ago. Again, I don't think "PTSD" as a clinical classification is my best way to understand myself. What I've come to learn is that distress in general tends to reminds PTSD sufferers of their trauma. When I was a child suffering from PTSD-like states it was certainly unhealthy. Perhaps, and without doubt, there are flaws in who I am. But actually, as my father says it's "day and night" comparing the way I was to the way I am. Or perhaps more poetically it is "night and day". I know that it isn't just PTSD sufferers who are reminded of their own distress when they encounter someone in distress. Pretty much everyone seems to respond to it by picking out something distressing in their own life if not being able to share in a similar experience. People who are labeled "PTS-DISORDER" are figured to be fundamentally different than others. They are damaged in some way. Yet, through learning to deal with "PTSD" I came to discover your all just as fucking nuts and you don't realize it. People who "suffer" from "aspergers", "PTSD" and even many "abusers" do not feel like they are what people make them out to be with their labels. I've tried to get to know people from crackpot communists to self-loathing pedophiles, I've talked to them earnestly and learned their stories. I came to see that we are all people and that the "normal" mind is fucked up. I spent too much of my life depending on others to define what I was, these categories might be useful for some, but they don't allow you to be anything else. The pedophile built up the guts to tell his dad that he'd been fantasizing about children, and though his dad took it lovingly, the embarrassment apparently destroyed his fantasies and he was free. He told me this in private because others cannot understand or have empathy for such a condition. He recognized that I am highly empathetic to even the worst neuroses. And I've tried to remain that way while the world-at-large has continued to paint me and these others black. Try love for a change instead of fucking categories and myopic thinking. It's my life, I've lived it, these memory banks have the information, this brain has spent more time reflecting on it than anyone else. Mandy doesn't listen to me say that her constant demands for empathy from me, though they me be related to "co-dependency", are difficult for me to manage when I am "numb" to them. After getting almost killed by a truck, being psychoanalyzed like a drosophila in a lab, being charged and convicted by my family as a result of my disorderly behavior, and finally being abandoned by them, all-the-while dysfunctioning at everything else (school, peer relations, etc..) and feeling like I was completely alone and no one could have empathy for anyone whose problems were more than a moldy ham sandwich. Society, normal people, are fucking dense and self-absorbed, they play their little "empathy" games, but when something truly challenging comes at them, they turn to hatred and destruction instead. I got the fucking souvenirs to prove it. I didn't get any scars from playing sports. At this point, it's pretty irritating to have to listen to unempathetic shits talk about how I display psychopathic tendencies.

[Animus]

Eye of The Beholder

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I came to see that we are all people and that the "normal" mind is fucked up

Probably true but here you are, displaying and reporting on your issues, ranging from abuse to a terrible childhood, while indicating some struggle with it by the amounts of texts rehashing all of it again to strangers, involving your partner somehow in some complex online tit-for-tat. Very surreal, do you even realize that? The level of anxiety in your writing differentiates it somewhat from "normal" fuck ups. And only in that kind of context it could become useful to speak about disorders, to create some temporary categories in this swamp of symptoms. Mostly to get to medication or other methods to become more functional. Do you and you surrounding consider yourself functional? In that case, all the talk about disorders are nonsense, out of context, as far as I'm concerned.

The more I read here, the more it seems your "illness" lies more in the actual rehashing and clinging to the "problem", the labels and the judgments. I would be exhausted after seriously writing one of those paragraphs. You seem puzzled by your own addiction to it, to her, to this. It should be obvious to you from the get-go nothing will be accomplished here, nothing new will be revealed, surely that much you know. Now at least try to understand why you're still here typing away, exposing your views and hurt. Does it provide some familiar reality or surroundings for you?

I guess I'm trying to ask: what do you want from this exchange, with her or anyone here? Aren't you just inviting "unempathetic shit talk" in some way? Perhaps nobody should have reacted?

[Animus]

I came to see that we are all people and that the "normal" mind is fucked up

Probably true but here you are, displaying and reporting on your issues, ranging from abuse to a terrible childhood, while indicating some struggle with it by the amounts of texts rehashing all of it again to strangers, involving your partner somehow in some complex online tit-for-tat. Very surreal, do you even realize that? The level of anxiety in your writing differentiates it somewhat from "normal" fuck ups. And only in that kind of context it could become useful to speak about disorders, to create some temporary categories in this swamp of symptoms. Mostly to get to medication or other methods to become more functional. Do you and you surrounding consider yourself functional? In that case, all the talk about disorders are nonsense, out of context, as far as I'm concerned.

The more I read here, the more it seems your "illness" lies more in the actual rehashing and clinging to the "problem", the labels and the judgments. I would be exhausted after seriously writing one of those paragraphs. You seem puzzled by your own addiction to it, to her, to this. It should be obvious to you from the get-go nothing will be accomplished here, nothing new will be revealed, surely that much you know. Now at least try to understand why you're still here typing away, exposing your views and hurt. Does it provide some familiar reality or surroundings for you?

I guess I'm trying to ask: what do you want from this exchange, with her or anyone here? Aren't you just inviting "unempathetic shit talk" in some way? Perhaps nobody should have reacted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7qOZhKL ... re=related

[Animus]

You label me? I'll label you, so I dub the "Unforgiven"

[Cahoot]

Dear Animus, many people read your words, and can relate your words to memories from their own experiences, and do not judge you.

All that people can do here, in this situation, is read and listen to your words that take the form of an inner voice. I’ve noticed much intelligence and impartial kindness here on this board, and perhaps knowing that such people listen can be a good thing for you.

To offer advice may seem like a presumption of knowing your life better than you do, but here in the presence of your sincerity, I don’t think anyone here would do so out of arrogance.

For awhile, that inner voice speaking your words will influence the expressions of those who have heard, whether or not there is an explicit intent to address what has been heard. And also, in ways that seemingly defy what is known of cause and effect, responses will come to you in unexpected ways, from other circumstances and unanticipated sources, simply through the courage of the trust you have shown.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I would be exhausted after seriously writing one of those paragraphs.

I'm exhausted just trying to read all of this stuff. (Animus, don't take that wrong, I'm learning a lot looking in the you-mirror).

One thing is obvious: both of them are attached to each other with both positive and negative attachments.

here you are, displaying and reporting on your issues, ranging from abuse to a terrible childhood, while indicating some struggle with it by the amounts of texts rehashing all of it again to strangers,
(...snip...)
The more I read here, the more it seems your "illness" lies more in the actual rehashing and clinging to the "problem",

Look familiar? You remember when I did that a lot. To oversimplify, memories are etched in a person's brain, and stressful memories are etched more deeply in a person's brain because of the stress chemicals released at the time. It is theorized this helps the organism protect itself from future similar dangers. What happens with PTSD is that a stress is significant enough to etch the memories so deeply that anything that is even remotely similar to the stressed memory draws the consciousness stream down into that groove like rainwater draining down a riverbank and retracing the same riverbed.

Diebert, you have mistaken a symptom for an "illness."

What I've come to learn is that distress in general tends to reminds PTSD sufferers of their trauma.

Yes, sort of, that's called "triggering." When something similar to a trauma happens, it triggers the old memories like a tape that is "too easily" replayed in all its gory detail. With CPTSD, there are enough stressed memories that just about anything bad can be connected to a traumatic "tape." I'm not really sure if the tape is really "too easily" replayed because there may still be a function to that tape.

The professionals say we have hyper-active reflexes - but a few of those "hyper" reflexes got me to duck before I was aware that I was ducking, and missed being hit in the face with something before I even had conscious awareness that something was coming at me, and caused me to hit the brakes and miss getting in an accident before fully "seeing" something about to cross my path, so was it really "hyper" when it occasionally serves a very useful function? I mean sure, 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 it is nothing of significance, and sure I've been called into a supervisor's office for being "insensitive to the Hispanic population by wincing when someone gestures close to (my) face" and all the intellectual awareness in the world that the Hispanic population is accustomed to standing closer together than the American tradition and that Hispanic people just gesture wildly sometimes close to people's faces and they are not likely to hit me does not do a thing to stop my subconscious from making me wince when it interprets that I may be about to be smacked in the face - but what's more important? Not offending someone who wants to replace American culture with Hispanic culture, or not getting my eye poked out next time somebody accidentally throws a pen in my face?

He told me this in private because others cannot understand or have empathy for such a condition. He recognized that I am highly empathetic to even the worst neuroses

One strange thing about people who are not like us, most can look at people and tell who can handle hearing their stuff and who can't, and they only tell people who can handle it. We spill it more openly - not because of the CPTSD, though that is a part of it. It's actually kind of rare for intelligent people to get PTSD because we have better coping mechanisms, but everyone has breaking points. By the time people like you and I get PTSD, it is almost necessarily CPTSD, and it is from a level of stuff that most people would not have gone through because if they had been put in the same situations, they would have been hospitalized in a catatonic state long before most of it happened. "Lucky" us for being strong enough to go through it all end up with very little concept of exactly how mentally weak the normals are, that they can not even hear about much of the stuff we actually lived through.

So most people look at us as though we are just weird. If we try to blend and don't let anyone know what our weirdness is, while they are normal they are prompted to be abusive to us because we are different in a way they don't understand, so they are mean to us out of fear - until they need somebody really strong, and then they recognize us for who we are, and open up to us when they know that no one else could handle it.

Mandy doesn't listen to me say that her constant demands for empathy from me, though they me be related to "co-dependency", are difficult for me to manage when I am "numb" to them.

Even the strongest get burned out. It is important that we get our boundaries respected.

At this point, it's pretty irritating to have to listen to unempathetic shits talk about how I display psychopathic tendencies.

Yeah, sorry about that. It's because you still have more to learn about humans. It sucks. Especially since a lot of what we have is actually the polar opposite of psycopathy. It's bad enough for anyone to get made fun of for what they are, and much worse when people strawman the target. It may even be worse for us, because of some of the very things that we have to deal with that others don't.

Animus, I probably still have stuff to address in the posts between you and Mandy. Sorry it's taking me so long to contribute, but I've digging through some heavy embankments of my own sewage lately. I'm sure you know how that can be difficult to interrupt mid-stream for too long, especially onto other stuff that can trigger right back into the sewage stream.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Yes it's true, I've almost killed myself several times, notice myself is the key here. I don't try to kill him. I yell and scream and tell him I hate him, tell him to go smoke, tell him to fuck off. I've pushed him, pulled his hair, but I haven't ever really hurt him, hurt him. Yes, he should rightly never talk to me again. Yes that is all Satan exuding from me. But, he made it sound like I am going to hurt him and didn't correct Donna when she took it like that, that is also Satan.

Do you have any idea what it says to someone when you say that you yell, scream, tell him you hate him... push him, pull his hair - and then dismiss all that as you have not tried to "hurt him, hurt him" - and that's not even counting the pain you put him through with your suicide attempts. Yes, I'm sure you were in severe pain to do that - but please try to also recognize the pain that causes others.

I have a heck of a lot more to address here - please pardon me for interrupting myself, but I have to go for now.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

What happens with PTSD is that a stress is significant enough to etch the memories so deeply that anything that is even remotely similar to the stressed memory draws the consciousness stream down into that groove like rainwater draining down a riverbank and retracing the same riverbed.

Diebert, you have mistaken a symptom for an "illness."

Elizabeth, you are the one eagerly diagnosing or confirming "PTSD" here, not me. In any case, it's important to recognize symptoms for what they are, when they are occurring. In the end that's what a supposed disorder is, a rough classification of a collection of symptoms. Theories on which traumas do or didn't cause the symptoms are speculation. There are many voices in psychotherapy saying that the repeated trauma or behavior in the now has way more power than a trauma in the claimed past. It's the re-affirming which can keep symptoms alive! Too much clever diagnosis in terms of a 'system' with 'causes' becomes too often a straight-jacket for a victim to hide in, to justify, to punish, etc.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Diebert, I'm going to ask you a very small favor. Just for this post, please try to recognize that I am using every internal verification that I have to make sure that that what I am saying to you here is a detached statement of truth, not some defensive or offensive (using the tactical definition of "offensive" rather than the definition involving subjective evaluation) statement of ego, not some half-baked reaction, but something that I think could be of value to you if you choose to use it.

I recognize that you probably honestly think that what you said is substantively different from what I am accusing you of saying. To the extent that you are telling Ryan that the important thing to look at is the meat rather than the name, and I am trying to help Ryan to get over the name by affirming the useful parts of a name as he mentioned, we are going in different directions. What I am saying to you is that what you said is not substantially different enough for you to deny your position of diagnosing or confirming PTSD.

My primary attempt here is to suggest to you that you should take a serious self-evaluation on your willingness to take personal responsibility for your thoughts, words, and deeds.

My secondary attempt here is to point out the difference between what you are literally saying and and what you are communicating. Where it is a good GF exercise for others to learn to see the former rather than being influenced into seeing the latter, I want to make sure that you still see the latter.

Elizabeth, you are the one eagerly diagnosing or confirming "PTSD" here, not me.

I recognize that I am confirming certain pieces of what I see with part of the PTSD proposition - "part" meaning that I added the "C-" to the "PTSD" that I saw. I did not make a diagnosis, and "eagerly" is your projection onto me, by far not a reflection of truth. I did a lot of weighing about whether I should follow the GF rules of engagement with this or mundane rules, especially since Animus seems to not particularly approve of the label. Absolute truth only won by about an inch. I reveal this to you not in my defense, but to define why I classify your use of the term "eagerly" as a projection.

not me.

Another poster also recently pointed out that you do a lot of pointing at others while denying your own actions. I add my confirmation that your ego is preventing you from being open and honest about yourself. Here is what I see as evidence of your dishonesty.

I came to see that we are all people and that the "normal" mind is fucked up

Probably true but here you are, displaying and reporting on your issues, ranging from abuse to a terrible childhood, while indicating some struggle with it by the amounts of texts rehashing all of it again to strangers, involving your partner somehow in some complex online tit-for-tat. Very surreal, do you even realize that? The level of anxiety in your writing differentiates it somewhat from "normal" fuck ups. And only in that kind of context it could become useful to speak about disorders, to create some temporary categories in this swamp of symptoms. Mostly to get to medication or other methods to become more functional. Do you and you surrounding consider yourself functional? In that case, all the talk about disorders are nonsense, out of context, as far as I'm concerned.

The more I read here, the more it seems your "illness" lies more in the actual rehashing and clinging to the "problem", the labels and the judgments. I would be exhausted after seriously writing one of those paragraphs. You seem puzzled by your own addiction to it, to her, to this. It should be obvious to you from the get-go nothing will be accomplished here, nothing new will be revealed, surely that much you know. Now at least try to understand why you're still here typing away, exposing your views and hurt. Does it provide some familiar reality or surroundings for you?

I guess I'm trying to ask: what do you want from this exchange, with her or anyone here? Aren't you just inviting "unempathetic shit talk" in some way? Perhaps nobody should have reacted?

You mentioned his "issues" which is a term often used as a code-word for mental illness. You stated that his level of anxiety is different from that of normal fuck-ups, so you indirectly called him abnormal. You stated that he has a swamp of symptoms and may need medication to become more functional. Not only is that not substantially different enough from diagnosing to say that you did not armchair-diagnose him, what you said was narrowed down to the cutting portions of an accusation of a particular mental illness.

Especially juxtapositioned to those statements, you inquiries that could have merit take on a tone of accusation and harassment rather than functional inquiry. Additionally, saying something without coming out and saying it straight, and then denying saying it based on the fact that you didn't say it straight is a form of abuse known as "crazy-making." Whereas some people here have used abusive techniques as tools to encourage detachment in other GFers, you have to be really careful about when and where to use it, and you have to be right. Where you do have some good insight into psychology, you are dozens of good books short of mastering the subject (and I am not making the critique to make a "balance" against the compliment). A scalpel can be a weapon even in well-intentioned, insufficiently trained hands.

Please go back to where you denied diagnosing or confirming PTSD, and be as honest as you can with yourself about the position you took in this matter. Thank you.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

He doesn't mention his reactions to these situations where he is being Satan, which is much more appropriate because there he might have a better look/inquiry into what is going on sub-level. His focus should be directed inwards, but always seems to be about everyone else. I've been thrown against a few walls, had some cracked ribs, whiplash, etc. Why isn't he being honest, sincere and open about that? Why is that not the examples of choice, ever? Satan protecting himself? I probably would be healing a lot faster without the few whip rounds. So how about that massage? He can only project or estimate why I am doing something, even if I try to talk to him, he ultimately thinks he knows better.

You seem to insinuate that Ryan has thrown you against walls, cracked some of your ribs, and caused you whiplash - but that is not exactly what you have said. You also seem to be accusing him of delaying your healing through use of "whip rounds" whatever those may be. Why not say exactly what you mean? If Ryan is physically abusing you, why not come out and say it straight? If you received that physical assault from some other way, why make it look kind of like you are accusing Ryan?

Character assassination is a form of abuse - especially when you publicly announce both someone's first and last name in connection with the character assassination. Also, where we do encourage members to use their real names, I consider it abusive to publicly reveal more information about another member than the member has himself revealed. Ryan had revealed his first name, though to my knowledge, he had not revealed his last name until you revealed it. He decided to stand behind that, but it should have been entirely his decision - and there are valid reasons for a person to find it wiser to only reveal his first name, or no name at all. You took that choice away from him.

I explained that I feel like a sprawling net with gapping holes punched through it and I just needed him to back off, but then he threatens to leave

If he is just playing mind games with you, then you have lost nothing if he does leave. If you have clearly, rationally, and unemotionally explained to him what exactly you need in terms of him backing off, and it is a fair and equitable request, there is no reason for a rational person to not grant that request. If there is inequity or perceived inequity, that is part of what the exercise of a relationship is about - finding an equitable balance.

Some rules in a relationship should be obvious but it appears that they are not. I'll just leave you with two that seem to be most conspicuously missing in your relationship:

1. No hitting, grabbing, poking, or use of objects, words, tones, or gestures for the intention of causing fear, pain and/or harm.

2. Say what you mean, and mean what you say - but don't say it mean.

[Blair]

Sorry it's taking me so long to contribute, but I've digging through some heavy embankments of my own sewage lately.

It's interesting then that you think you are fit to be doling out (what appears to be) unsolicited, meddling advice to Animus.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Elizabeth, what you missed in my post was the simple reference to common behavioral-cognitive therapy which essentially addresses the now, to highlight the symptoms as they are occurring and focus on that. Once it's understood that everything what is being said and done now, the cognition included, forms the issue today, a new approach is possible. This is why I drew attention to the style and self-defeating reasoning in the posts themselves. It's also why I draw attention to the unreasoning in your own post, how you were just looking for a way to affirm an imagined center of original hurt, a evaporated past, the whole intrinsic twisted self.

But I'm not under the illusion that what I write will have any effect or light any light bulbs. I write only because I like to write and explore while I'm writing and responding for its own sake - not mine, not yours.

For the rest of your post, it all seems hardly worth responding to as it really seems to willfully interpret everything I say backwards. For example I mention "issues" instead of illness or disorder but you make it mean a "code-word for mental illness". Can't you see you're just looking for a way to invalidate? When I'm using carefully "level of anxiety" after agreeing everyone could be called fucked-up, you translate that I'm actually meaning "you're abnormal". And on, and on.

you are dozens of good books short of mastering the subject

There's also an interesting similarity with you and Ryan as it comes to books. Like building layers of defense, another book in the wall, for what? You have no idea what I might have read or what my background is, you only know that I hardly advertise it. Think about it. Also a thing I noticed these days is people lining up to emotionally defend others at this forum for what must be a deeper alliance and similarity they feel?

Blair is right, Elizabeth. Your overall absurd response to my post is just another indication that you are in a terrible position to counsel anyone here, if counseling is possible here for anyone at all. It's like a blind leading the lame, to where? It's evil in its own right, the pure sad tragic violence of ignorance! I take my words back: there's a real psychopathic element at work: if you have such deep issues to dig still, don't introduce them knowingly to other, perhaps even less stable minds. That's really a violation so I can only advice you not to contribute anymore to Ryan his inquiry. As will I.

[cousinbasil]

You stated that his level of anxiety is different from that of normal fuck-ups, so you indirectly called him abnormal.

Diebert has said Ryan's relationship with Amanda is not normal in a couple of posts in this thread, but if you will notice, he has put "normal" in quotes - it is obvious that he is referring to something I said in my "advice" to Ryan. I said that his relationship sounded "normal" to me, and it does, as well as unique as all relationships are. Perhaps we should all refrain from "counseling" Mandy and Ryan, as to my knowledge none of us has as much as met either one. That is why I kept my remarks superficial - I do not see how even a trained therapist could benefit someone via an online forum, it's too much like radio talk-show analysis, even worse. A trained therapist would likely not even attempt it. I think this is a case where we all have good intentions, yet we are paving the road to hell.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Sorry it's taking me so long to contribute, but I've digging through some heavy embankments of my own sewage lately.

It's interesting then that you think you are fit to be doling out (what appears to be) unsolicited, meddling advice to Animus.

That's actually a reasonable rumination. If no human offered advice to any other human until they were perfect themselves, then all anyone would have access to would be their own thoughts. By working together, people have far more resources to draw from. I may have a piece of insight that someone else hadn't seen, or even if I am not spot-on, perhaps something I say could spark new thoughts in new directions in other people.

It's also why I draw attention to the unreasoning in your own post, how you were just looking for a way to affirm an imagined center of original hurt, a evaporated past, the whole intrinsic twisted self.

Here is another example of you projecting a motive onto me. Until you learn to differentiate between what you imagine you see and what is real, you have no chance of achieving wisdom yourself, much less accurately assess another.

I'm not under the illusion that what I write will have any effect or light any light bulbs.

That's an actual lie. If you really believed that what you write would not have any effect, you would not write.

For the rest of your post, it all seems hardly worth responding to as it really seems to willfully interpret everything I say backwards.

It is amazing how often you accuse others of precisely what you yourself are doing.

You have no idea what I might have read or what my background is, you only know that I hardly advertise it. Think about it.

Yeah, by being enigmatic about what your background is, you can insinuate that you might be a professional on the very topic being discussed, whatever the topic may be.

I do know from reading what you have written that you are far from an expert on the topic of human psychology. Where it's possible that you are professionally a doctor of psychology, it is not possible that you actually know what you are talking about.

It's evil in its own right, the pure sad tragic violence of ignorance!

How melodramatic.

I take my words back: there's a real psychopathic element at work

I'm glad you are at least sort-of admitting to your psychopathic tendencies. Admitting where you are is a step to living a truthful life.

if you have such deep issues to dig still, don't introduce them knowingly to other, perhaps even less stable minds.

I know. I don't know why you throw this random advice at me - it is irrelevant to what we are discussing.

That's really a violation so I can only advice you not to contribute anymore to Ryan his inquiry. As will I.

You throw hot button words like "violation" around, and you advise (the word you wanted above was the verb "advise" not the noun "advice") - you advise another to not contribute - but you have contributed nothing of value here.

You stated that his level of anxiety is different from that of normal fuck-ups, so you indirectly called him abnormal.

Diebert has said Ryan's relationship with Amanda is not normal in a couple of posts in this thread, but if you will notice, he has put "normal" in quotes- it is obvious that he is referring to something I said in my "advice" to Ryan. I said that his relationship sounded "normal" to me, and it does, as well as unique as all relationships are.

The level of anxiety in your writing differentiates it somewhat from "normal" fuck ups. And only in that kind of context it could become useful to speak about disorders, to create some temporary categories in this swamp of symptoms. Mostly to get to medication or other methods to become more functional. Do you and you surrounding consider yourself functional? In that case, all the talk about disorders are nonsense, out of context, as far as I'm concerned.

cousinbasil,
To me, putting "normal" in quotes was a nod to the inherently enigmatic nature of the question "What is normal?" and, in context, that where it is normal for people to fuck up, fucking up is not a normal state for normal people.

As far as whether or not Ryan and Mady's relationship is "normal" - if you read enough "woman" philosophy, you would conclude that it is "normal." I'm not so concerned with what is "normal" as I am with what is healthy.

I'm not sure that I understand what your point was in attempting to clarify that there were quotation marks around the word "normal" which I did not use because I did not use a direct quote.

Perhaps we should all refrain from "counseling" Mandy and Ryan

I was done commenting on what I saw, and it appears that both of them are on break from this board, but I am concerned about what you and Deibert are both doing in telling me to do something that I had already decided on my own, for now, subject to change if if circumstances change.

Perhaps we should all refrain from "counseling" Mandy and Ryan, as to my knowledge none of us has as much as met either one. That is why I kept my remarks superficial - I do not see how even a trained therapist could benefit someone via an online forum, it's too much like radio talk-show analysis, even worse. A trained therapist would likely not even attempt it. I think this is a case where we all have good intentions, yet we are paving the road to hell.

There are many things that may or may not be helpful to people or couples. This board is not the same thing as seeing a trained therapist, nor is it the same thing as going to a support group or a support message board, nor is it the same thing as reading a book - but it is what it is.