Underrated Scientists/Philosophers.

[Carmel]

David:
Yes, so it's not unlike being a spiritual philosopher, which requires the same kind of focus and intuitive insight. The only problem is, Einstein confined his focus to issues in physics and some of its associated metaphysical areas, and kept it well away from wisdom. As such, he was largely a wasted talent. He achieved much, but failed more.

Carmel:
He was far too brilliant for the "logically simple". There is "wisdom" to be found in his ideas, but one has to be mentally flexible and be able to think holistically to "grok" it. He clearly understood the "logically simple" ideas that are espoused here., cause and effect, infinity and nonduality, but he took these ideas far beyond the philosophically simple.

"Nobody understands me and everybody likes me" ~Albert Einstein

We can never fully understand the inner workings of Einstein's genius. The best we can hope for is to catch a glimpse of it.

[Ryan Rudolph]

I tend to agree with David on this one.

If Einstein was supremely wise, he wouldn't have been haunted by his role in the creation of the atomic bomb, he merely would have accepted it as a inevitable effect of the coming together of causal forces. Basically, his response wouldn't have been so emotional. To me, this illustrates a mind that dedicated far too much time to physics, and not enough time to deep philosophy.

Also, Einstein had a difficult time accepting that the laws of quantum physics appeared different than the laws of the larger universe, as described by Newton. He wanted to believe that a grand theory existed, a grand theory other than cause and effect.

A fallacy that many physicists still hold today - the desire to discover some grand theory that explains all things. Many physicists are trying to fit the string theory into some grand theory, but they have all failed of course.

A theory merely attempts to describe how a small aspect of reality appears to work, with only local variables. However, how reality actually is must be far greater than the sum of all relative theories, or even just one theory.

[Carmel]

Ryan:
If Einstein was supremely wise, he wouldn't have been haunted by his role in the creation of the atomic bomb, he merely would have accepted it as a inevitable effect of the coming together of causal forces. Basically, his response wouldn't have been so emotional. To me, this illustrates a mind that dedicated far too much time to physics, and not enough time to deep philosophy.

Carmel:
He wasn't "haunted" by anything he did. Correlation doesn't imply cause. He didn't "blame" himself for the A-bomb. He was a pacivist due to his compassionate nature and deep concern for humanity. If you're going to keep insisting that he blamed himself, you'll need to provide corroborating evidence. Yes, he had emotion, such as empathy. This only added to his compassionate nature. People without empathy are usually referred to as "sociopaths"", though people who suffer from Narcisscistic personality disorder also don't have empathy. Einstein certainly didn't suffer from either of these pathologies.

Ryan:
Also, Einstein had a difficult time accepting that the laws of quantum physics appeared different than the laws of the larger universe, as described by Newton. He wanted to believe that a grand theory existed, a grand theory other than cause and effect.

Carmel:
This statement is patently absurd. He had no problem accepting the laws of quantuum physics. He simply held a firm belief in causality, that quantuum physics wasn't random or uncaused, as some physicists of the day falsely believed.

Ryan:
A theory merely attempts to describe how a small aspect of reality appears to work, with only local variables. However, how reality actually is must be far greater than the sum of all relative theories, or even just one theory.

Carmel:
You completely missed the point of my previous post. Einstein understood the underlying nature of reality, such as the logically simple ideas espoused here. The ideas here about reality were, to him, bubble gum and a yo-yo, intellectually speaking. He obviously understood these ideas, but he went far beyond this, philosophically speaking.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Carmel,

He obviously understood these ideas, but he went far beyond this, philosophically speaking.

The foundation philosophy presented by GF exposes humanity to some of the deepest ideas imaginable, philosophically speaking. Einstein was more a physicist than a philosopher. He did most of his work on laws, theories, and experimentation, which isn't really in the realm of philosophy at all. It is in the realm of science.

please do not confuse the two, almost all his publications were in physics.

[David Quinn]

That's right. Science and philosophy are two entirely different disciplines, each with their own levels of expertise. Being good in one of them doesn't necessarily mean being good at the other. Quite the reverse in fact.

David:
Yes, so it's not unlike being a spiritual philosopher, which requires the same kind of focus and intuitive insight. The only problem is, Einstein confined his focus to issues in physics and some of its associated metaphysical areas, and kept it well away from wisdom. As such, he was largely a wasted talent. He achieved much, but failed more.

Carmel:
He was far too brilliant for the "logically simple". There is "wisdom" to be found in his ideas, but one has to be mentally flexible and be able to think holistically to "grok" it. He clearly understood the "logically simple" ideas that are espoused here., cause and effect, infinity and nonduality, but he took these ideas far beyond the philosophically simple.

The way he spent the last thirty years of his life gives lie to this. It was during this time that he battled Niels Bohr and the other quantum physicists because he believed (mistakenly) that quantum theory was at odds with cause and effect. He engaged in this battle because his understanding of cause and effect was very limited. Never, throughout his entire life, did Einstein apply himself to see into the very heart of cause and effect and discern the way in which it was deeper and more fundamental than quantum theory.

So - instead of spending those thirty years encouraging people to give up their attachments and open themselves up to the Infinite, he instead wasted his time engaging in a meaningless phantom battle within the academic arena. This can hardly be considered the actions of a genius. It was stupidity.

-

[Carmel]

Ryan:

The foundation philosophy presented by GF exposes humanity to some of the deepest ideas imaginable, philosophically speaking.

Carmel:
From a logical perspective, it's simple. Even an Average Joe shouldn't have any problem understanding it.

Ryan:
Einstein was more a physicist than a philosopher. He did most of his work on laws, theories, and experimentation, which isn't really in the realm of philosophy at all. It is in the realm of science.

Carmel:
You're wrong. Science is a branch of philosophy. He's most famous for his groundbreaking works in science, but there are volumes of books which contain his philosophical ideas. He studied Buddhism and Eastern philosophy. Clearly, you don't understand his ideologies based on what you've said, thus far. If you had you would be able to grasp that he was at heart, a philosopher and that he thoroughly comprehended the nature of reality, including the ideas expressed here.

[David Quinn]

You're in a dream world, Carmel.

-

[Carmel]

David:
That's right. Science and philosophy are two entirely different disciplines, each with their own levels of expertise. Being good in one of them doesn't necessarily mean being good at the other. Quite the reverse in fact.

Carmel:
You seem to be confusing his towering genius with that of say, a scientist who works as a lab technician. He was certainly more than capable of both scientific and philsophical thought or even of merging ideas which resulted from both schools of thought.

David:
Yes, so it's not unlike being a spiritual philosopher, which requires the same kind of focus and intuitive insight. The only problem is, Einstein confined his focus to issues in physics and some of its associated metaphysical areas, and kept it well away from wisdom. As such, he was largely a wasted talent. He achieved much, but failed more.

Carmel;
There is wisdom there, but you've closed your mind off to it...an unwise choice, but it's really your loss.

David:
The way he spent the last thirty years of his life gives lie to this. It was during this time that he battled Niels Bohr and the other quantum physicists because he believed (mistakenly) that quantum theory was at odds with cause and effect. He engaged in this battle because his understanding of cause and effect was very limited. Never, throughout his entire life, did Einstein apply himself to see into the very heart of cause and effect and discern the way in which it was deeper and more fundamental than quantum theory.

Carmel:
If anyone understood cause and effect it was Einstein. I have no idea why you're saying this, it's looks like a dog and pony show intended to fool the sycophants.

David:
So - instead of spending those thirty years encouraging people to give up their attachments and open themselves up to the Infinite, he instead wasted his time engaging in a meaningless phantom battle within the academic arena. This can hardly be considered an act of genius. It was stupidity.

Carmel:
You mean he wasn't like you so he is therefore stupid? Could you be any more egotistical?There are other paths to wisdom besides David Quinn's.

[Carmel]

You're in a dream world, Carmel.

-

You're in a dream, David. Well, that was easy.

Trying using logic, David. Random comments such as this aren't doing anything to help your arguments.

[Dennis Mahar]

Carmel,

What is it specifically about his ideologies that you disagree with?

Just that fact of him as idealogue.

He had an idea.
formed an ideal.
became idealogue.
He investigated through a false conception that the universe is static and fixed.
He saw what he wanted to see in relation to his ideal.

[Carmel]

Carmel,

What is it specifically about his ideologies that you disagree with?

Just that fact of him as idealogue.

He had an idea.
formed an ideal.
became idealogue.
He investigated through a false conception that the universe is static and fixed.
He saw what he wanted to see in relation to his ideal.

Carmel:
You're wrong, Dennis. Einstein didn't believe that the Universe is static and fixed.

[Dennis Mahar]

he couldn't handle QM because it indicated the role of an observer.

that's why he said God doesn't play dice!
he thought it's static and fixed.
that was his ideal.

[Carmel]

What the...?

Are you just making things up now?

The meaning behind "god doesn't play dice", is that nothing is random, it's an affirmation of cause and effect. and again, Einstein didn't believe the universe is fixed and static. I have no idea where you derive this notion from.

edit to add:

Dennis, just to clarify, by "fixed and static", are you referring to his views on determinism?

[Dennis Mahar]

when we look beyond Einstein the icon to Einstein the man, we see one characteristic that is very common in all men. Einstein tended to see what he wanted to see. Examples of this are his criticism of quantum mechanics by the phrase that God does not play with dice, and his lack of surprise at the confirmation of general relativity through the observed bending of light around the limb of the Sun. This one tendency got him in trouble when he invented the cosmological constant.

Einstein had the preconception that the universe was static; he believed that the distances between the galaxies was fixed for all time. But this view is not sustainable in classical gravitational theory, because all objects with mass are attracted to each other. If the universe were static at one instance in time, then its self-gravitation would cause it to collapse onto itself at later times. For cosmology conform to his preconception, Einstein had to create a mechanism to counter the universe's tendency to collapse, so he added a term to General Relativity, his theory of gravity, that counterbalanced the gravitational force of mater. This term, which effectively gives the vacuum a repelling force, is the cosmological constant. Einstein set its value to precisely counteract the gravitational force of mater.

When Einstein introduced his cosmological constant, however, he was making a deep mistake, because we was trying to make the universe conform to his expectations, rather than looking to the universe to guide him in developing his theory. But the universe seldom follows our preconceptions. Observations distant galaxies proved that the universe was not static, but expanding; with this discovery, there was no longer a need for a cosmological constant. This lead Einstein to refer to the cosmological constant as his greatest blunder.

Einstein's mistake was in violating the spirit of science.

[Carmel]

To be clear, are you saying that his Theory of General Relativity is wrong? That's not my understanding of the matter, so I'm sceptical of this claim. Could you possibly provide a source or link from a viable source that explains this?

[David Quinn]

David:
That's right. Science and philosophy are two entirely different disciplines, each with their own levels of expertise. Being good in one of them doesn't necessarily mean being good at the other. Quite the reverse in fact.

Carmel:
You seem to be confusing his towering genius with that of say, a scientist who works as a lab technician. He was certainly more than capable of both scientific and philsophical thought or even of merging ideas which resulted from both schools of thought.

He might have been capable, but he chose not to understand the Infinite and become wise. He instead remained a harmless scientist.

He certainly had plenty of raw potential, spiritually speaking, but he didn't fulful it.

David:
The way he spent the last thirty years of his life gives lie to this. It was during this time that he battled Niels Bohr and the other quantum physicists because he believed (mistakenly) that quantum theory was at odds with cause and effect. He engaged in this battle because his understanding of cause and effect was very limited. Never, throughout his entire life, did Einstein apply himself to see into the very heart of cause and effect and discern the way in which it was deeper and more fundamental than quantum theory.

Carmel:
If anyone understood cause and effect it was Einstein. I have no idea why you're saying this, it's looks like a dog and pony show intended to fool the sycophants.

I explained my reasoning above, but you chose not to deal with it. Instead, I have to put up with some more of your hateful labelling.

David:
So - instead of spending those thirty years encouraging people to give up their attachments and open themselves up to the Infinite, he instead wasted his time engaging in a meaningless phantom battle within the academic arena. This can hardly be considered an act of genius. It was stupidity.

Carmel:
You mean he wasn't like you so he is therefore stupid? Could you be any more egotistical?There are other paths to wisdom besides David Quinn's.

As I explained, I consider the way he wasted the last thirty years of his life battling against academic phantoms - and indeed, phantoms that are easily eliminated with a few moments of genuine thought - as evidence of his stupidity.

But, you know, carry on with the insults and abuse, if that is what rocks your boat ....

-

[Dennis Mahar]

einstein was gracious enough to admit his blunders.
can you?
look up the clock paradox for one.
he was a theorist who let others do the experiments.
it was the contradictions in einstein theory that became important as well.

[Carmel]

David:
He certainly had plenty of raw potential, spiritually speaking, but he didn't fulful it.

Carmel:
I think he did fulfill it. I see something in him that you don't see. We just have a different perception of him. That's fine, no sense in belaboring the point.

David:
I explained my reasoning above, but you chose not to deal with it. Instead, I have to put up with some more of your hateful labelling.

Carmel:
"God does not play dice with the Universe" ...nothing is random...

Cause and effect was one of Einstein's core beliefs. I don't understand why you think otherwise.

David:
As I explained, I consider the way he wasted the last thirty years of his life battling against academic phantoms - and indeed, phantoms that are easily eliminated with a few moments of genuine thought - as evidence of his stupidity.

But, you know, carry on with the insults and abuse, if that is what rocks your boat ....

Carmel:
Your insults toward Einstein appear no less "abusive" or "hateful". It's as though you're denying him his individuality and autonomy by suggesting he should have spent his time as you do as if there are no other alternative paths to wisdom. Can you not see how this might be construed as egoic?

[David Quinn]

David:
I explained my reasoning above, but you chose not to deal with it. Instead, I have to put up with some more of your hateful labelling.

Carmel:
"God does not play dice with the Universe" ...nothing is random...

Cause and effect was one of Einstein's core beliefs. I don't understand why you think otherwise.

He might have "believed" in it, but nonetheless his understanding of it was very shallow. He didn't really understand it in a spiritual sense. It was merely an elegant, mechanical idea that seemed logical to him. He didn't see into its soul, as it were, and use it to propel himself into the freedom of nirvana.

Einstein's conception of cause and effect was so shallow that he essentially equated it with the traditional paradigm of classical physics. This was the main reason why he got hung up on quantum physics. From his superficial, mechanical perspective, the quantum theorists seemed to be overthrowing the principle of cause and effect - not realizing, in his ignorance, that they were only challenging the traditional paradigm of classical physics.

David:
As I explained, I consider the way he wasted the last thirty years of his life battling against academic phantoms - and indeed, phantoms that are easily eliminated with a few moments of genuine thought - as evidence of his stupidity.

But, you know, carry on with the insults and abuse, if that is what rocks your boat ....

Carmel:
Your insults toward Einstein appear no less "abusive" or "hateful". It's as though you're denying his him individuality and autonomy by suggesting he should have spent his time as you do as if there are no other alternative paths to wisdom. Can you not see how this might be construed as egoic?

All I’m doing is rejecting the idea that Einstein was some sort of spiritual genius. He wasn’t. He was an amateur. He occasionally tinkled out “Chopsticks” on his philosophic piano every now and then and that was about it. He was nowhere on the level of a Huang Po, or a Kierkegaard, or a Buddha. You need to get real, Carmel.

Wisdom is all about awakening people to the great nirvanic reality which is all around us. Einstein never encouraged people in that way, for he himself was entirely ignorant of this reality and all of his writings reflect this.

-

[Carmel]

David:
You need to get real, Carmel.

Carmel:
This translates to me as: You need to agree with me, Carmel.

...which leads me to the following semi-rhetorical question: Is it a waste of time for me to attempt to discuss anything with an absolutist, such as yourself? This question isn't meant to be facetious, it's a serious inquiry.

[Blair]

You are wasting your time posting here, period.

[David Quinn]

David:
You need to get real, Carmel.

Carmel:
This translates to me as: You need to agree with me, Carmel.

Not at all. I'm simply trying to open your mind to a far greater reality that Einstein ever dreamed of.

...which leads me to the following semi-rhetorical question: Is it a waste of time for me to attempt to discuss anything with an absolutist, such as yourself? This question isn't meant to be facetious, it's a serious inquiry.

It's up to you whether it is a waste of time. If it is simply your intent to keep boxing people in with your hateful labels (as you've been doing all throughout this thread), then nothing is ever going to be achieved.

-

[Carmel]

Carmel:
Not at all. I'm simply trying to open your mind to a far greater reality that Einstein ever dreamed of.

David:
no worries, I understand your version of reality. What makes you think you know what Einstein dreamed of?

David:
It's up to you whether it is a waste of time. If it is simply your intent to keep boxing people in with your hateful labels (as you've been doing all throughout this thread), then nothing is ever going to be achieved.

Carmel:
What "hateful labels" would those be? If you're experiencing any hate, it stems from within yourself, it's a product of your imagination.

[David Quinn]

Carmel:
Not at all. I'm simply trying to open your mind to a far greater reality that Einstein ever dreamed of.

David:
no worries, I understand your version of reality.

You don't have the faintest understanding of it, Carmel.

What makes you think you know what Einstein dreamed of?

Not understanding the Infinite, he was locked inside a finite aspect of reality.

David:
It's up to you whether it is a waste of time. If it is simply your intent to keep boxing people in with your hateful labels (as you've been doing all throughout this thread), then nothing is ever going to be achieved.

Carmel:
What "hateful labels" would those be? If you're experiencing any hate, it stems from within yourself, it's a product of your imagination.

Over the past couple of days, I've been referred to as an absolutist, an egotist, someone who is out to fool his sycophants, having hissy fits, a fake, a bigot, an intellectual simpleton - it's a non-stop torrent of abuse on your part. Are you even aware that you are doing this?

-

[cousinbasil]

Over the past couple of days, I've been referred to as an absolutist, an egotist, someone who is out to fool his sycophants, having hissy fits, a fake, a bigot, an intellectual simpleton - it's a non-stop torrent of abuse on your part. Are you even aware that you are doing this?

Clearly she has a thing for you, David.

But to be fair, it's not only over the last couple of days you have been called these things, and by no means just by Carmel.