Class Consciousness

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Class Consciousness

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote: mechanisation empirically and by definition requires at least some part of the scientific mindset in order to exist. It is the material (real) condition for the posited dehumanisation.
Why would you call the "scientific mindset" a material condition. That doesn't add up, unless you want to imply the philosophy of naturalism (or as some would call it: materialism) equals the matter itself. Then you'd have the appearence of 'matter' coindiding with the perception of something as matter to be inquired into.

WIth mechanisation as psychological issue, as I posed it, "machine-like" responses are meant. What else could I have meant? Alien implants?
Only if one posits consciousness as a kind of first cause, or primary material condition from which the material itself springs rather than the other way round.
It's true, I made nothing but a reasonable assumption that consciousness would be primal in relation to the practices (methodology really) of science and technology.
Actual reality is necessarily inclusive of all these things, including cognitive human limitations, by definition. I am convinced, here, you are positing a noumenal reality rather than something in accord with the notion of emptiness. In this case, you might as well subscribe to the school of absolute nihilism and not do anything at all! But you can't help yourself, can you?
The problem with any notion of emptiness is that as far as its reality goes, it doesn't exist. So when talking about what's real or not, it wouldn't help and nihilism would be the likely response. This is why I raise the specter of "actual reality" or "the real", as response to the fact we're still experiencing and responding with ethics, reason, discovery and all types of discerning behavior. This still needs a reality principle, which can still be gained or lost when dealing with life or consciousness. To talk in Lacan's terms: this principle would rule the imaginary, the symbolic as well as the 'real'. Funny how this mirrors Spinoza's types of knowledge: opinion, reason and intuition.
It's not an illusion, the experience of separation is this very consciousness. But with a bit of greater effort this too can be realized, hence: self-realization.
He said "delusion" not illusion. (Reminds me here of Lacan's Mirror Stage.) It is deluded to consider oneself, one's thoughts and feelings, as separated from the rest, unless you're an idealist who believes in an immortal soul (some noumenal reality) separated from some material (phenomenal) reality.
Einstein said "a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness". My point however was that it's so easy to imagine considering oneself to be not separated from some "rest", but all the while that's exactly what we are and how we perceive. Hence, the optical delusion would be a property of consciousness, and not a fault in its lens. I would go one step further can claim it was Einstein who stepped into the fallacy by implying, as an idealist, there existed some pure consciousness out there, a liberated state where one would be "freed" of separation and still exist as human consciousness. It sounds to me like unconsciousness or death, the poor man's solution to everything!
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Class Consciousness

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

cousinbasil wrote:Sometimes the greatest embrace is called love.
Only by those high on mushrooms!
cousinbasil
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Re: Class Consciousness

Post by cousinbasil »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
cousinbasil wrote:Sometimes the greatest embrace is called love.
Only by those high on mushrooms!
How dare you! Why, there's not a fungus among us.
Leyla Shen
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Re: Class Consciousness

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Nick, Brendan has an unrivalled grasp of Marxism, in my view, as evidenced by the ease with which he accurately and succinctly expresses its fundamental principles. Not sure if I've posted anything from him or if you've otherwise come across him, but here's something essential to a complete understanding of communism that might be of interest to you (in three separate parts); refutation of the single bourgeois economist myth surrounding Marx's LTV: What Transformation Problem?
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Leyla Shen
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Re: Class Consciousness

Post by Leyla Shen »

This is the very fallacious quagmire in which the bourgeois likes of Vicdan try to drown the lowly working class... :)
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Robert
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Re: Class Consciousness

Post by Robert »

Thanks for the youtube channel link Leyla, just what I was looking for.
Leyla Shen
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Re: Class Consciousness

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My pleasure.
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guest_of_logic
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Re: Class Consciousness

Post by guest_of_logic »

Welcome back, Leyla. Good to know that the mad Melbournian Marxist misanthrope is still on the scene. That was an interesting video series - thanks for that. Brendan does have a knack for communication. It would be fascinating to see he and Victor debate one another on the viability of Marxist theory - perhaps right here in The Crucible. Your pics of Istanbul are great, by the way. Not the best place for Marxists, though, it appears. An interesting visit anyway, I bet.
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Nick
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Re: Class Consciousness

Post by Nick »

Leyla Shen wrote:Nick, Brendan has an unrivalled grasp of Marxism, in my view, as evidenced by the ease with which he accurately and succinctly expresses its fundamental principles. Not sure if I've posted anything from him or if you've otherwise come across him, but here's something essential to a complete understanding of communism that might be of interest to you (in three separate parts); refutation of the single bourgeois economist myth surrounding Marx's LTV: What Transformation Problem?
Good stuff. Lots of yummy material to digest :)
Leyla Shen
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Re: Class Consciousness

Post by Leyla Shen »

Thanks, Laird. Not quite "back on board," though. :)

Bon apetit, Nick.
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parasympathetic
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Re: Class Consciousness

Post by parasympathetic »

Nick Treklis wrote:Is class consciousness, in the Marxist Sense, the foundation for "economic progress" on the individual level, as well as the societal level? I think it is.

I put economic progress in quotes because I don't want to restrict it's meaning to just having lots of money or capital. Rather, I want it to mean an overall quality of life based on having access to essential things like food, shelter, health care, education, transportation, and communication, along with the ability to participate in an adequate amount leisure activities that individuals and groups find appealing, i.e. making the economy work for you.
Marx should not have read "Adam Smith".Being the stirrer that Marx was he just had to practice adversarial games.
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