John Brown

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brokenhead
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Re: John Brown

Post by brokenhead »

Shahrazad wrote:broken,
I will go out on a limb here and state that British- and US-backed Saudi hegemony in the Arab world is by any measure a lesser evil than the slave trade.
US imperialism is the problem, and no, I do not believe it to be a lesser evil than the slave trade. The difference is the scale at which these evils are applied: while slavery is applied to an individual, imperialism is applied to a whole nation. And don't try to b.s. me that the US as a slave master is benevolent; you can't, because I have first-hand experience, while you don't.

It is clear to me now wherein lies your problem: you cannot see nothing wrong with imperialism. Of course, if it were aimed at you, you'd have a different perspective.
You have made some good points here, Shah. I will go you one further - I have not had first hand experience in the slave trade, either. But it is untrue that I can see nothing wrong imperialism. I think it is logical to agree with Hodges that when government is permitted to grow to a certain size, it can take on an agenda of its own because it is where the political power is concentrated.

Edited to add:
The slave trade was a component of imperialism; ending slavery did not also abolish the "Sacred Hunger" that is imperialism. It can be and has been argued that abolition creates a class ripe for conscription. Still, I stand by my contention that slavery is the cruelest facet of imperialism.
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Carl G
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Re: John Brown

Post by Carl G »

brokenhead wrote:Still, I stand by my contention that slavery is the cruelest facet of imperialism.
I would say the war making aspect is crueler. It dehumanizes one's own population more than slavery, turning one's own citizens into obedient mass-murderers, supporters of mass murder, and victims of mass murder. War traumatizes whole generations, and future generations by repercussion. It is soul-taking and bad karma making on the greatest possible scale.
brokenhead
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Re: John Brown

Post by brokenhead »

Carl G wrote:
brokenhead wrote:Still, I stand by my contention that slavery is the cruelest facet of imperialism.
I would say the war making aspect is crueler. It dehumanizes one's own population more than slavery, turning one's own citizens into obedient mass-murderers, supporters of mass murder, and victims of mass murder. War traumatizes whole generations, and future generations by repercussion. It is soul-taking and bad karma making on the greatest possible scale.
You certainly have me there. I was strictly thinking of imperialism in its dormant phase, i.e., peacetime.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: John Brown

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Carl G wrote: There is a little thing called resistance, little of which was shown in the 3 buildings in question. That's what happens in controlled demolition when lower supports are pre-blown by explosives.
It's indeed a little thing compared to the for you hard to imagine force of the building crashing down. And not exactly with free fall, feel free to use a stopwatch.
why did not the central core remain standing. What caused those massive steel columns to disintegrate (not merely fail, even) all the way down? And why was there no stack of 100 pancakes at the bottom (but rather just a few stories high of rubble)?
Why do you think they were "disintegrated"? Enough pictures show core as well a perimeter structures in the rubble. They have shipped 100,000 tons of steel away and reused most of it. A stack of 100 pancakes? The floors would not have survived the impact in such form, it's the whole point of a relatively lightweight steel structure: other materials won't be very dense.
Building 7 had minor fires on parts of several floors..
No, serious, consistent and enduring internal fires, in part enabled by a fuel supply for generators, 12,000 gallons of diesel. It went on for hours and especially around major column 79 which went first.
There are recordings of firemen on the 79th floor of one of the towers, just before the collapse, stating that the fire was under control. Clearly from the footage showing the exterior of the buildings, the fires were smokey low temperature affairs.
That doesn't mean anything, those firemen cannot have had any clear picture of anything outside their direct environment. no one outside the building had a clear picture either and neither did the news agencies. Many goofs were made in the reporting during and afterward and this only fueled the conspiracy fires. As I said before: too messy for most to handle.
Most of the jet fuel ignited outside the buildings in the initial fireballs.
But enough fuel blazed through the floor(s), starting many pretty hot fires all at once.
Again, there clearly was no firestorm.
A huge balloon of jet fuel was smashed against a building, penetrating the outer walls and many of the inner walls being destroyed on impact. What results is a short intense 'lighting' of the whole floor(s). The fires started immediately afterward.
Yes, I've wondered why in areas of the sub-basement there was molten steel found months after a paper fire caused a skyscraper to free-fall collapse. .... And why was thermite (thermate?) detected in the ruins?
It's not unusual with events like this to have confusing witness statements in abundance and some scientists seeking their fifteen days of fame. It doesn't mean it's anywhere accurate. In '92 after the Israeli 747 crash in a large building here there were a couple of years of this stuff floating around. The Internet wasn't that big yet though so rumors traveled more slowly, getting less repeated and less scientist getting in on the game.

Actually I think it's misleading to use passive tenses like "thermite was detected" and "molten steel was found". These are not common and verified facts at all. Perhaps you should look a bit deeper who exactly said it, what they said in a later stage and if perhaps something else was said or measured.
Also, why does footage of the collapse show what seems to be cutting charges going off in a series in the floors below the collapse? And why are there multiple reports of a series of explosions on lower floors preceding the collapse?
It has to be expected the air is pushed out because of immense pressure change when the first ceilings were coming down fast.
The collapse of building seven has never been officially explained. Not plausibly. There were minor fires and then it collapsed neatly into its own footprint in a few seconds.
It was explained in detail in later reports. Your 'minor' fires which were not really minor were enough to weaken and collapse a supporting column after being heated for many hours without intervention. Instead of a mystery it's more additional proof of how consistent widespread fires over only a few floors can initiate collapse in these type of steel core 'hollow' structures.
I have examined them critically one by one, and none of them have evaporated. None of the 50. Its been 8 years and none have evaporated.
Disappointing. Don't you find it suspicious you haven't even been able to dismiss one or two? I demolished at least a dozen the first year. And that fueled the healthy distrust and objectivity needed to tackle a few dozen more. Only five or so remain.
The only way NORAD would have ignored 4 errant commercial jets in one day is by official order to stand down. Otherwise the procedure is automatic. What other explanation would possibly fit?
The problem lied within air traffic control, it took almost 15 minutes to raise alert with air defense. By then it was too late. Hijacking cases until now were supposed to give you a bit more time. Suicide runs were not part of the manual!

Even here I think the same formula applies: people and organizations found themselves in uncharted territory quite often that day. Just like real life.
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Shahrazad
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Re: John Brown

Post by Shahrazad »

Shah: DHodges, but empires do fall, don't they?

DHodges: Empires fall, but I don't know of one that shrank of its own free will, not because it was forced to. Do you?
No, that can never happen. Power is too addictive. You want more, not less.

But the US Empire seems to already be on its way down. Only with time will we know for sure.
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Carl G
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Re: John Brown

Post by Carl G »

Diebert,

What can I say, I find nearly every point of your argument unbelievable. Might just have to leave it at that.
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