Cui Bono?

[Katy]

ukraine?

[Dan Rowden]

Nat,

It's not just that. It's that the accusation of anti-semtism as he is using it is an affront to intelligence. It's a mind-numbingly dishonest form of ad hominem. These issues are not matters of objective data; they are contentious, if only because they involve history and interpretations therein. Victor's behaviour amounts to no more than: you don't agree with my version of history and its interpretation (and everything else for that matter) therefore you must be a anti-Semite by default. It's disgusting. I can't believe you're being supportive of this crap. It's no different whatever to his accusations against you as a moocher.

[Philosophaster]

Faust is an outright anti-Semite, of the full-throttle Protocols of the Elders of Zion variety. The others are just idiots arguing that there is no Jewish culture outside of Jewish religion and that Israeli nationalism is based on nothing more than Bible texts.

[Unidian]

Dan,

I don't see it that way, I guess. I think it's pretty obvious a number of these people are anti-Semitic. It's not a huge deal to me, as I'm no huge fan of some aspects of Jewish culture myself. Anti-Semitism as I define it is simply opposition to Jews and/or Jewish culture. We're all opposed to lots of things.

Of course, there are degrees of anti-Semitism, just as there are degrees of anything. There are the insanely bigoted anti-Semites who hate Jews just because they are Jews, for any number of essentially irrational, fear-based reasons. Then there are others who don't necessarily care at all whether a given individual is Jewish, but are critical of one or more aspects of Jewish culture. Sometimes these call themselves anti-Zionists or whatever, although even this is tricky because one need not oppose a Jewish homeland to have issues with other aspects of the culture.

In today's social/political climate, raising any criticism whatsoever against anything Jewish will get you labeled anti-Semitic, so I don't necessarily see that as a big deal. It's the degree of criticism one raises, the quality of the arguments, and the psychological motivations behind them that are important to me, and make the difference between sensible criticism and "LOL JEWS DID WTC."

I'm not really "supporting" anything in this. I just called Victor an "abrasive Zionist," for crying out loud - I'm sure I won't escape being slapped with an anti-Semite label for that alone. I'm just pointing out that Victor is quite correct that there is a very high concentration of criticism against all things Jewish here. Some of it is just bigoted, and some has potential merit. But that it exists is pretty obvious.

[vicdan]

Jesus, Nat. Vic said:

I have never yet encountered such a dense concentration of anti-semites in one place.

You seriously think this is an honest statement?

it completely and totally is. From what i can tell, on the order of a half of the local denizens -- at least ones hanging out here in Worldly Matters -- are anti-semites. The highest concentration of anti-semitism I have ever encountered in one place before was at YAP, which had four (four!) genuine anti-semites amidst a couple of dozens of regular posters. Incidentally, I humiliated and ran out of town, tarred and feathered, all but one of them.

And no, I have never, ever posted on any racist boards.

It's not just that. It's that the accusation of anti-semtism as he is using it is an affront to intelligence. It's a mind-numbingly dishonest form of ad hominem.

When the shoe fits...

These issues are not matters of objective data; they are contentious, if only because they involve history and interpretations therein.

Since when has that stopped us from making judgments?

Victor's behaviour amounts to no more than: you don't agree with my version of history and its interpretation (and everything else for that matter) therefore you must be a anti-Semite by default.

That's a flat-out lie. i didn't call Diebert an anti-semite for disagreeing with my interpretation of history -- that merely gave me an inkling that he might be, but it was by no means a determinant factor. his proclamation about jews and galut defined him as an anti-semite.

incidentally, this is a brute fact right here in this thread: when it was nothing but disagreement over history, i didn't call him an anti-semite. So why would you make such ridiculous lies about me, danny?

It's disgusting. I can't believe you're being supportive of this crap. It's no different whatever to his accusations against you as a moocher.

ooooh, demagoguery! i thought you were supposed to be above such low-life shit!

[vicdan]

I just called Victor an "abrasive Zionist," for crying out loud - I'm sure I won't escape being slapped with an anti-Semite label for that alone.

erm, huh? Why? I am abrasive, and I am a zionist.

Now claiming that i would accuse of anti-semitism anyone who disagrees with me, or anyone who juxtaposes any reference to jews with anything bad (as you seem to be implying here) -- that's ridiculous and false; but this sort of shit seems to be a sort of innoculation a lot of anti-semites use, and many others seem to pick up for some unknown reason.

[vicdan]

ukraine?

Surprisingly, no. Sure, there are plenty of anti-semites there, but in terms of density of anti-semites, Ukraine doesn't stack up against GF; nowhere near. it could probably duke it out with YAP for the #2 slot though.

[Unidian]

Well, let's test it then.

I think Jewish culture is entirely too materialistic and places too much emphasis in financial achievement, which has deleterious effects on other cultures through their influence - which is considerable, given that Jews tend to be high achievers in law, media, etc.

Anti-Semitic?

[Shahrazad]

I'm just pointing out that Victor is quite correct that there is a very high concentration of criticism against all things Jewish here.

Even more so than there is racism against blacks and Arabs / Muslims? And don't even get me started on women.

[Dan Rowden]

Dan,

I don't see it that way, I guess. I think it's pretty obvious a number of these people are anti-Semitic. It's not a huge deal to me, as I'm no huge fan of some aspects of Jewish culture myself. Anti-Semitism as I define it is simply opposition to Jews and/or Jewish culture. We're all opposed to lots of things.

Of course, there are degrees of anti-Semitism, just as there are degrees of anything.

Ok, that's all fair enough.

I'm just pointing out that Victor is quite correct that there is a very high concentration of criticism against all things Jewish here.

I dispute this. In Faust's case, no real issue, but otherwise in my view what is being seen is a disagreement with a particular world view that Jews, and more particularly Zionists would like demand as the only legitimate one. They are reacting against this type of intellectual "tyranny". A given people doesn't automatically own the facts of their history. The Japanese have shown us that perhaps more starkly than anyone.

I think it is utterly vomitious that people who don't agree with Jewish accounts of Jewish history are auto-labeled anti-Semites. Victor tosses this label around like damned confetti, as he does with other abuses, and that is equally nauseating.

[vicdan]

Well, let's test it then.

I think Jewish culture is entirely too materialistic and places too much emphasis in financial achievement, which has deleterious effects on other cultures through their influence - which is considerable, given that Jews tend to be high achievers in law, media, etc.

Anti-Semitic?

Dumb, ignorant, and false. Anti-semitic? Well, that depends on where you go with it. For all I know, you make similar idiotic judgments about other cultures.

[vicdan]

I'm just pointing out that Victor is quite correct that there is a very high concentration of criticism against all things Jewish here.

Even more so than there is racism against blacks and Arabs / Muslims? And don't even get me started on women.

I will grant you women. This place positively seethes with misogyny. Blacks/arabs? i haven't seen much bigotry against either one of those groups here. Some, sure, but nothing like the tidal wave of misogyny and anti-semitism that i am observing.

[Unidian]

Yes, I do make "similar idiotic judgments" against several cultures.

So just to be clear, that makes me an idiot but not an anti-Semite, right?

[vicdan]

I think it is utterly vomitious that people who don't agree with Jewish accounts of Jewish history are auto-labeled anti-Semites.

You just don't stop with this lie, do you, asshole?

Go back in this thread, find where i called Diebert an anti-semite, and then trace that against his disagreements with my interpretation of history.

When you blatantly lie after being corrected with public evidence, there's a problem.

[vicdan]

Yes, I do make "similar idiotic judgments" against several cultures.

So just to be clear, that makes me an idiot but not an anti-Semite, right?

AFAICT.

Anti-semitism is discriminating against jews specifically. if you make similarly dumb pronouncements about jews, blacks, irish, arabs, latinos, etc., then you are probably just an all-around bigot and asshole, not necessarily an anti-semite per se. 'Xenophobia' is a nice category.

[Dan Rowden]

I think it is utterly vomitious that people who don't agree with Jewish accounts of Jewish history are auto-labeled anti-Semites.

You just don't stop with this lie, do you, asshole?

Go back in this thread, find where i called Diebert an anti-semite, and then trace that against his disagreements with my interpretation of history.

When you blatantly lie after being corrected with public evidence, there's a problem.

See, people who disagree with your interpretation of events are also liars. Your megalomania has no bounds, does it, Victor? You are truly the unbounded Abuse Sage, swirling in Infinite Potential.

[Jamesh]

Nietzsche: "Man does not live for pleasure; only the Englishman does"

The Jews as a brainy put-down minority have acted to supply the Englishmans wishes for survival reasons. Sure they do this because they are good at it having learnt to do the same 2 or 3 thousand years ago with other cultures.

In Australia the Asian crowd are the new jews, they are taking over all the little shops like bakeries and cafes etc.

[Philosophaster]

God's House. The House of God.

[Unidian]

WTF? Somehow my reply to another thread ended up here... weird.

[Philosophaster]

Must have been the ghost in the machine.

[Dan Rowden]

Jews.

[Unidian]

Anti-semitism is discriminating against jews specifically. if you make similarly dumb pronouncements about jews, blacks, irish, arabs, latinos, etc., then you are probably just an all-around bigot and asshole, not necessarily an anti-semite per se. 'Xenophobia' is a nice category.

I see. I am an "all-around bigot and asshole" because I think that if a culture is particularly materialistic, it can result in the general propagation of materialistic values, which is an undesirable outcome given my values.

So are you an "all-around bigot and asshole" for thinking that the culture of faith has undesirable effects on society as a whole?

[vicdan]

See, people who disagree with your interpretation of events are also liars.

What fucking interpretation? Go back in this thread and find me calling Diebert an anti-semite for disagreeing with me about history. For example, find any place where i called him an anti-semite for disagreeing with me about the time when jews appeared in israel, sicne that was a major point in the argument.

You still know how to read, right?

[vicdan]

I see. I am an "all-around bigot and asshole" because I think that if a culture is particularly materialistic, it can result in the general propagation of materialistic values, which is an undesirable outcome given my values.

Why don't you start by providing some evidence that jewish culture is significantly more materialistic than other cultures? You know. Evidence. And then we can talk about how to categorize your belief about the jewish culture.

[vicdan]

BTW, Uni, here is a thought for you about 'materialistic culture'. How do Einstein, Feynman, Dayan, Gershwin, etc. fit into it? How about my old CS theory professors, Immerman and Rosenberg?

have you considered that jewish culture is not a materialistic culture but an achievement culture? Financial success is a form of achievement, but so is scientific or artistic attainment, humanitarian endeavors, etc. Jews become businessmen and lawyers and doctors, but also scientists and artists, writers and activists.

My personal most direct encounter with what you call 'materialistic culture'? My family pushing me to get a PhD. Not to earn $$$, but to get a higher degree, even though PhD is actually associated with a drop in earning capacity vs. Master's degree.

Think about how facts relate to prejudices, dude; and don't forget selection bias.