Thanks to those I visited in the US and Canada

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

then her sexual interplay with other men changes. It is still there in a subconscious form, but because her needs are being met elsewhere

I'm having trouble picturing Shardrol and Buddha getting hot and heavy in the bedroom.

[Matt Gregory]

Elizabeth, why did you ask Kevin in particular, though? Instead, of, I don't know, Dan or Nat or someone? Nat lives right near you, doesn't he?

Even if Nat was willing to do all that kind of work, which I seriously doubt, his significant other would have killed me for even asking.

Dan was, and is, not in good enough physical condition to do the labor.

Kevin seemed most likely to be capable, available, and most likely to get something he wanted out of the trip. It seemed like the decision that would be of the most benefit to everyone involved.

Oh ok, I was just curious. I'm glad you brought him over and I got a chance to meet him. It was nice to have a visitor, too. So, thanks! :)

[David Quinn]

Elizabeth,

One can imagine what would happen if the roles were reversed. Imagine if a regular bloke were to contact a renowned female guru and offer to fly her half-way around the world in order to cook and clean for him

If the roles were truly reversed, then include that he had suffered some kind of injury or mental breakdown, causing him to be incapable of cooking for himself or cleaning up properly. Kevin did a lot of heavy physical labor here that I would not have been able to do, and was not able to hire anyone locally to do. Consider the karmic repercussions of helping out someone in need who was unable to take care of basic needs without help.

Fair enough. I've laboured my point long enough, so I think I'll leave it there.

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[Unidian]

Yeah, I wouldn't have agreed to do all that. I really can't understand why Kevin did. I hope he did at least get paid in cash, or that the room and board he got were of good enough quality to equal minimum wage for however many hours he actually worked. Otherwise, he allowed himself to be taken advantage of, which in my view would be considerably more degrading than anything to do with sex.

[Unidian]

David,

I know that, as a man, a lot of sexual subconscious processes are instinctively activated inside me whenever I am in the presence of a female, no matter who she is.

Then, according to Matt's definition, which is "slavery to the biological reproductive cycle" or somesuch, you are Woman. How dainty. :)

[Matt Gregory]

Exactly, Nat!

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I hope he did at least get paid in cash, or that the room and board he got were of good enough quality to equal minimum wage for however many hours he actually worked. Otherwise, he allowed himself to be taken advantage of

We discussed multiple times whether or not the deal was fair. He told me that he thought he got a good deal, and I think I got a good deal. When both sides think it was a good deal, even after the fact, it was probably a good deal. We'll have to wait until Kevin posts again to see if he still thinks it was a good deal.

[Unidian]

Well, be that as it may, if I agree to work for $3 an hour and you agree to pay me that amount, and we both agree that it's a great deal, it still isn't. If the labor department, whose job it is to decide what does or does not constitute a good deal, got wind of it, you'd be in trouble.

But having said that, I know what you mean. I guess if you're both happy with it, there's no harm done besides maybe a little disregard for principle. If you did take advantage of Kevin (note the "if" because I don't know the actual deal), he was clearly willing to be taken advantage of. That being the case or at least hypothetically the case, I have little more to say in that regard.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Well, if you're going to put it that way, I didn't actually hire Kevin. It was closer to the WOOFing program, but closer still to mutually doing good deeds for each other. People in the same club often get together to help a member move, or do something like that. I don't know how many times I've done good deeds for people, not expecting anything in return. The Amish get together for a barn-raising, and the labor department doesn't have a problem with that. And Nat, since when did you decide that the government was the ultimate authority on what's fair?

[Shardrol]

Shardrol,

I thought you had a personal guru of some kind. Or is it just the Buddha himself that you are married to? At the very least, you seem wedded to a particular Buddhist tradition.

Sorry, yes I do have a personal guru of some kind but he's not Tibetan - that's what threw me off.

But wouldn't being married to the Buddha be the same as being married to Truth? And being wedded to a particular Buddhist tradition be the same as valuing a particular method (e.g. logical analysis) of discovering Reality?

I don't want to be rude, and I'm trying my best not to be, but I think it is worth pointing out that if a woman is already taken, then her sexual interplay with other men changes. It is still there in a subconscious form, but because her needs are being met elsewhere she doesn't have any particular craving to activate them or bring them to the foreground. Although she often does this, anyway.

When you say 'taken' like that it sounds as if you're assuming a situation where women are either pair-bonded or available - as if being happily single isn't possible. Is that what you think?

As amusing as your fictional account was, I wonder if many, if not all, of the things you were describing didn't actually happen in one form or another. I know that, as a man, a lot of sexual subconscious processes are instinctively activated inside me whenever I am in the presence of a female, no matter who she is.

Really? No matter who? Your grandmother? Margaret Thatcher?

I do actually understand what you're saying about an instinctual biological attraction between men & women but it's quite a big leap from that to what I described in my bodice-ripper post.

To be honest, when I first met Kevin & saw that he was taller than I was I did feel a moment of something like instinctual attraction. Since I'm 6 feet tall this doesn't happen all the time & I was taken by surprise. But it was just a momentary thing. i'm not in the market for a boyfriend - not because I'm getting my sexual needs met by my guru but because I don't want to put my energy into that kind of relationship. I have other plans.

This doesn't mean I'm dead to the world sexually but it does mean that I'm not focused on it the way I might be if it were how I defined myself or if I felt incomplete or lonely being single. I liked Kevin & found him very interesting to talk to but there just wasn't a sexual atmosphere. It was kind of like how I feel with my male cousin with whom I also enjoy talking a lot about all kinds of subjects.

I don't find this at all strange. Don't you think you could spend a few days with a woman without getting any sexual jollies out of it, overt or otherwise?

[Unidian]

Elizabeth,

What is "the WOOFing program?"

And Nat, since when did you decide that the government was the ultimate authority on what's fair?

It's not, but they do have a system designed to prevent the worst abuses. I'm not saying that this was one of those or even an abuse at all, but history has taught that people will take advantage of one another unless regulated.

[Dan Rowden]

Elizabeth,

What is "the WOOFing program?"

I thought this meant that Kevin went there to actually look after the dog.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Elizabeth,

What is "the WOOFing program?"

Kelly linked to it once after she did some WOOFing.

WOOFing

[Unidian]

WWOOF stands for World-Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms. Many offer free food and accommodation in exchange for work, which varies from 4-8 hours a day.

Ah. Sounds like rubbish to me, as 4-8 hours of work is worth way more than room and board, especially since it's very likely Spartan living anyway. These sort of things exist everywhere. They capitalize on people's higher aspirations to obtain free labor. It's a primary reason I avoided some of those Buddhist-themed "opportunities" where you'd get room, board, and an hour or two of instruction per day in exchange for 8 or more hours of work. Something about the deal seemed off. But it could be worse - in Scientology's "Sea Org," workdays are often 14 hours or more and members sign billion-year contracts. Whatever "spiritual" guise this sort of thing may take, it's all about the free labor.

[Unidian]

If I'm going to work 8 hours a day for nothing more than room and board, the accomodations had better be one of Paris' grandfather's hotels. Not some bunk bed in a shack.

[Kevin Solway]

Dan, you know darned well because I repeated the answer to you at least 20 times as you kept drunkenly asking "Why Kevin?'

Dan, is this right? At least 20 times?

If Dan's willing to be honest, perhaps he'll tell you about the near nervous breakdown he gave me the night before Kevin arrived convincing me that Kevin would expect a sexual sort of thing

And what about this?

This behaviour has all the characteristics of a jealous husband trying to aggressively dominate and control the thoughts of his wife.

[Kevin Solway]

He knows that a man's mere presence and attention is more than enough to serve as a sexual catalyst.

A lot depends on the context.

As long as the sexual context is not created - through subtle flirting, idle chit-chat, etc - then the danger is minimal.

Imagine you're sick and in hospital and you have a female doctor who is wholly professional, serious, and doesn't flirt with you even to the slightest degree.

While you might still be able to fantasize, if you have the energy, the sexual danger is minimal.

[sue hindmarsh]

Diebert wrote:

Sue, while your questions are interesting and challenging in a good way as well as the possible answers of Kevin will be, you leave yourself open to some criticism too.
It's all too feminine to confuse shape and form with content.

True, women can’t see past the shallows they live in.

My questioning of Kevin goes much deeper though. For when we are discussing philosophical thought; and that is how Kevin has characterised his trip to the US, in philosophical terms; the person emanating that thought cannot be separated from it in anyway.

So asking questions like these ones you mention -

Why would a sage behave like this, dress like that, not do this, always want to do such and so?

- could be appropriate in some situations. For example, on this forum, any person can be subject to this type of scrutiny if what they say seems to not match up with their actions. Even dead people’s lives are often gone over with a magnifying glass looking to better understand their ideas. The usefulness of such activity can only really be appreciated by those who are themselves striving to break down those mental blocks that hinder their own further philosophical development.

Sure there are contemporary elements to nurturing and spreading ones wisdom but they are always in movement and change and certainly shouldn't worry other aspiring sages too much.

Kevin has his own life to live, as I do mine. And it is in my nature to judge and discern all things to uncover the truth therein. Therefore, Kevin, like any other thing in Nature, will be placed under the magnifying glass to see what’s what. Kevin’s opening post and some of his replies on this thread just don’t add up with what I know of his knowledge about women and the emotions. So naturally, I’ve questioned what’s on his mind.

Why not worry more about Dan flip-flopping between comedy and bored comments and threatening to delete nonsense topics? If he's that unstable on a message board I wonder on what roller coaster he is when not behind the keyboard. Or perhaps the keyboard brings it out?

I don’t “worry” about Dan, Kevin, or anyone for that matter. Dan’s “flip-flopping” can be boring, and sometimes it can be interesting. Presently, I don’t think Dan is interested in dealing with the stuff that feeds some of that “f-f”. One day he may have to – but we’ll just have to wait and see.

Or lets analyze David's attempt in censoring the 'QRS' word because of his irritations. This is a long way from the " unconventional discussion forum suitable only for the bravehearted" or the definition of genius being "the infinite capacity for giving pain."

David’s idea of replacing “QRS” with the word “wisdom” is a sound one, as it better describes what he, I, and others do on this forum than does “QRS”. It was discovered that changing the term was going to cause too much confusion, so David dropped the idea. The idea, and the about face on it, does in no way contradict the above passages you have selected and placed in inverted commas. Actually Diebert, it isn’t at all clear what point you were trying to establish by using those passages. If you feel like it, you might outline what you were thinking.

Compared with Solway alone with beard at the customs of Homeland Security, the general discomfort, wear and tear of traveling and its effects on the contents of the mind, I'm not so sure what your definition of 'masculinity' has evolved into these days.

I did offer to go along with him and help carry his bags, but he said he’d be able to manage alone. : (

I bet that Kevin’s come back from his holiday feeling invigorated, and glad to be home. That’s why most people travel in the first place, because they are bored with their everyday lives and desire a change. Even if they end up going on the holiday from hell they’d still plan another trip for next year. Travelling is also useful if you enjoy telling other people about all the places you’ve been to. Most people have a favourite travel story that they like to drag out at dinner parties. My favourite one is about the time I was travelling through the middle of outback Queensland in forty-five degree heat, no other living thing for hundreds of miles around, and out of nowhere, a man dressed in a suit ran...

And doesn't your post show an attachment to a sort of 'example' to follow, a rigidness in how you attach lifestyle and expression to a certain spiritual maturity?

No, my post shows the same quality of thought that I strive for in every post I write. That Kevin and I have slightly different views on what we find personally “spiritually inspiring” is as inevitable as we liking different foods.

While there's certainly a connection, it's really severely limiting to connect wisdom to not traveling, not sharing pictures or experiences or promoting ones ideas by name and number each and every post.

Like I said above, Kevin and I have different views on this. He’d be aware of where my disagreements are coming from, but even if he wasn’t, it doesn’t matter in the least, as my reason for the post was to assert my view on the subject.

If everybody starts to expect ruthless, cutting edge and sober posts, it would be about time to do the reverse once in a while!

If “everybody” started writing “ruthless, cutting edge and sober posts” focused on wisdom - this forum would be an even more unique place than it already is.

I for one am really looking forward to the way Kevin will reflect upon his journey and the people he met, in the light of his philosophy.

Yes, I’m looking forward to that too.

Perhaps he could have started of with this right away but his expression of gratitude is a very primal psychological response to the wealth of experiences and reception of kindness and generosity he might have experienced. The basic law of exchange not even a sage can avoid: one receives and one gives back. It's like breathing and cannot be helped, only perhaps by minimizing receiving gifts or charity of any kind. This might mean not coming out much, or not breathing at all perhaps.

Yes, Diebert, your response to Kevin’s post is a “reverse” to my “ruthless, cutting edge and sober” one. But I’m sure Kevin will be tickled pink at hearing that his “primal psychological responses” are “unavoidable” - “like breathing”.

[sue hindmarsh]

Kevin wrote:

Elizabeth: Dan, you know darned well because I repeated the answer to you at least 20 times as you kept drunkenly asking "Why Kevin?'

Dan, is this right? At least 20 times?

Well, remember that it is Elizabeth who is telling this tale, so she would have had to exaggerate the number by 10 say.

And it wouldn’t have been “Why Kevin” 10 times. There would have been a few “What the fuck is Kevin thinking going to visit you?” And a few “Fucking hell, he’s insane!” And maybe even a, “What that bloke won’t do for a cheap bloody holiday”. ; )

Elizabeth: If Dan's willing to be honest, perhaps he'll tell you about the near nervous breakdown he gave me the night before Kevin arrived convincing me that Kevin would expect a sexual sort of thing

And what about this?

This behaviour has all the characteristics of a jealous husband trying to aggressively dominate and control the thoughts of his wife.

Hang on, if it is true that Dan said that about you, it wouldn’t have made any difference to her if she’d already gone to the trouble of thinking your visit out well. The fact that such a comment could tip her over the edge shows that she was in an emotional tizzy, with all sorts of fantasies going on in her head about what was going to happen on your visit.

But Kevin, you are correct about Dan’s relationship with her being intimate, for she would not have been so yielding to such a crazy idea if she wasn’t already also emotionally dependant on him.

Obviously this poor innocent women needs protection from both of you, for she has the emotional age of a four year old.

[Kevin Solway]

David’s idea of replacing “QRS” with the word “wisdom” is a sound one, as it better describes what he, I, and others do on this forum than does “QRS”.

Actually, my own view is that the idea of replacing "QRS" with "wisdom" is a fundamentally unsound idea.

The reason being that this would simply be a censoring of the natural way people want to use words and language.

If people want to group certain things together using a certain word, such as "QRS", then that is their right to do so - wisely or unwisely - and it can only be harmful to attempt to force the usage of particular words and thoughts on others.

Imagine if someone tried to forcibly ban the word "Australian" on the grounds that Australia contains lots of different kinds of people, some of whom have little in common. It would backfire on them badly.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

My questioning of Kevin goes much deeper though. For when we are discussing philosophical thought; and that is how Kevin has characterised his trip to the US, in philosophical terms; the person emanating that thought cannot be separated from it in anyway.

I must have missed the characterizing of his trip in philosophical terms. What I gathered was a list of names, places and photos, the description later on in this thread about some practical motivations (Kevin wrote that the reasons were 'complex') and added to that a thoughtful interest in social and psychological aspects of the journey and finally communicating along the way ones insights, which might qualify for pure philosophy.

Even dead people’s lives are often gone over with a magnifying glass looking to better understand their ideas. The usefulness of such activity can only really be appreciated by those who are themselves striving to break down those mental blocks that hinder their own further philosophical development.

The only problem is that you didn't seem to come up with anything really convincing or insightful in your critique. It seemed fueled by something else entirely. That's why I went over it with a magnifying glass.

Kevin’s opening post and some of his replies on this thread just don’t add up with what I know of his knowledge about women and the emotions. So naturally, I’ve questioned what’s on his mind.

You might have to be clearer on this. You thought giving thanks to the people seemed like an emotional move? Or the decision to go? Or the fact he wrote about it? Or visiting women was countering his knowledge about them?

I don’t “worry” about Dan, Kevin, or anyone for that matter. Dan’s “flip-flopping” can be boring, and sometimes it can be interesting. Presently, I don’t think Dan is interested in dealing with the stuff that feeds some of that “f-f”. One day he may have to – but we’ll just have to wait and see.

Such behavior seems quite contradicting with the ideas and even involved the forum itself and not just his private life. If your intention was pure and only geared toward exposing 'mental blocks' it would be more consequent and obvious to address him than Kevin's trip which can hardly be called "flip-flopping".

David’s idea of replacing “QRS” with the word “wisdom” is a sound one, as it better describes what he, I, and others do on this forum than does “QRS”. It was discovered that changing the term was going to cause too much confusion, so David dropped the idea. The idea, and the about face on it, does in no way contradict the above passages you have selected and placed in inverted commas. Actually Diebert, it isn’t at all clear what point you were trying to establish by using those passages. If you feel like it, you might outline what you were thinking.

Sure, the idea might be sound but to actually get into the board controls to filter out the word by force, accidentally changing all past posts in the process doesn't seem like mature behavior. It seems petty, irritated, not thought and talked over and possible stemming from an emotional reaction to being lumped in with Kevin at the time. That's what I thought then and is partly confirmed by the stated criticism on Kevin's journey which seemed to be present for a while.

If “everybody” started writing “ruthless, cutting edge and sober posts” focused on wisdom - this forum would be an even more unique place than it already is.

That sounds good but it shows a lack in understanding the true problem of the feminine mindset. She could easily adapt such writing style and using all the right words and emulate the accepted expression of wisdom to a degree. Again, I think you're getting way too addicted to the form, subtle but still.

Yes, Diebert, your response to Kevin’s post is a “reverse” to my “ruthless, cutting edge and sober” one. But I’m sure Kevin will be tickled pink at hearing that his “primal psychological responses” are “unavoidable” - “like breathing”.

I hope not! It's a matter of understanding how the psychological processes work and in doing such one is able to become non-attached to their manifestation, or any lack thereof.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Well, remember that it is Elizabeth who is telling this tale, so she would have had to exaggerate the number by 10 say.

Precisely what gives you the right to say that I, personally, exaggerate? I do my best to be as accurate as possible. You, on the other hand, have repeatedly shown the tendency to try to start a cat-fight with me any time that the two of us are in the same post. As far as behavioral history predicting future behavior, there is a lot more evidence that you are just saying this to try to make me mad.

And it wouldn’t have been “Why Kevin” 10 times. There would have been a few “What the fuck is Kevin thinking going to visit you?” And a few “Fucking hell, he’s insane!”

He made the first comment as well, and actually he called both of us insane - even more accurately his repeated statement was "We all think you are both insane." But yes, the phrase that he fixated on, and 20 was actually a quite conservative number, was "Why Kevin?"

Hang on, if it is true that Dan said that about you, it wouldn’t have made any difference to her if she’d already gone to the trouble of thinking your visit out well.

Dan did have several good points about of the 3 of them, I knew Kevin the least well of all, and that he (Dan) knew Kevin much better than I did. It was entirely possible that Kevin was entirely different in person than in his writing - we had not even spoken before he arrived, only emailed. And it is true that my judgment in choosing my now-ex-husband sucked, and in trusting certain roommates sucked, and in ... well, I have a long history of being too trusting, but I have spent the last few years developing better judgment about others. True, I hadn't tested it yet...

The fact that such a comment could tip her over the edge shows that she was in an emotional tizzy, with all sorts of fantasies going on in her head about what was going to happen on your visit.

But Kevin, you are correct about Dan’s relationship with her being intimate, for she would not have been so yielding to such a crazy idea if she wasn’t already also emotionally dependant on him.

No, I wasn't running fantasies about what was going to happen on the visit - unless you count having a fixed roof, fixed fence, roof and screen repairs, trees taken care of (Kevin was once a forester, and I had some serious tree problems), and a continuing list of chores that you don't really need me to type out.

But yes, I will admit to having trusted Dan. He was willing to help instruct me on communicating more clearly, helping me figure out the psychology behind the near constant attacks since I got here... I considered him a mentor. I am still considering the implications of the fact that even Dan was willing to betray my trust like that just to mess with me.

Obviously this poor innocent women needs protection from both of you, for she has the emotional age of a four year old.

Take a look at your own behavior.

[Dave Toast]

I'm in a relationship, and my female partner and Elizabeth don't always get along well. For that matter, Elizabeth and I haven't always gotten along well ourselves. And I don't think she's as interested in what I have to say as what Kevin has to say. Dan, David, and Kevin's philosophy has a strange way of catching some women's interest.

Well, I guess I shouldn't have started naming names, but I'm just wondering why she didn't ask someone closer to her. But I guess you can't beat that cheap Australian labor :)

Or the cheap Australian soap operas.

[ChochemV2]

Goddamn this is boring, I wanted to read Kevin's take on the US having experienced it firsthand. Maybe you could create a new thread away from this dramafest, Kevin?

[David Quinn]

It would have been better if Kevin had simply done that in the first place and spared us the thank-yous and holiday photos. The lack of substance of the thread tapped into something that has been plaguing me about Kevin for some time and triggered my responses.

It is unedifying when Unwise posts his motorcycle photos and tries to connect it with wisdom and Zen. And it's just as unedifying when Kevin or anyone else does the same thing. I don't really want to see Worldly Matters clogged up with those kinds of personal indulgences.

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