Thanks to those I visited in the US and Canada

[Unidian]

That does sound like what Dan's saying. Very interesting considering that he has had a female roommate for many years. Who knows what kind of "sexual" interactions he has had with her or with his other female friends who, as Dan claims, do not consider him a misogynist.

Indeed, that's very similar to what I was thinking. But let's give Dan a chance to explain what, if any, "non-sexual" (and therefore non-bad) interactions one can have with a woman. The answer might be interesting.

[Dan Rowden]

It's not going too far at all, it's simply being consistent with the goals and philosophy. You talk like it's the equivalent of treating women badly or something; it isn't; it isn't even close to that. I'd consider the alternative to be treating women badly.

Then, since you affirm that any interaction with women is of the nature you suggest, it must follow that to have any interaction with women is to "treat them badly." No?

What? Where? How? When? Where did you get that from!? I didn't affirm any such thing. I specifically said interactions which affirm her connection to Woman, which chain her to certain limiting modes of thought and engagement with reality.

What sort of positive interactions, if any, can be had with women in your view?

Well, lots of everyday things don't have this character unless you make then have it. Talking to the checkout attendant at the supermarket is harmless unless you flirt with the girl. Most business interactions are fine, unless in some way Woman is exploited - in either direction. If there's no engagement or exploitation of that connection to Woman I spoke of, most things are fine. But you have to be aware of when it is actually happening.

[Dan Rowden]

Then any interaction with a woman is inherently sexual in nature?

That does sound like what Dan's saying. Very interesting considering that he has had a female roommate for many years. Who knows what kind of "sexual" interactions he has had with her or with his other female friends who, as Dan claims, do not consider him a misogynist.

It is blindingly obvious I did not say this.

[Unidian]

What? Where? How? When? Where did you get that from!? I didn't affirm any such thing. I specifically said interactions which affirm her connection to Woman, which chain her to certain limiting modes of thought and engagement with reality.

But this is a really bizarre answer, Dan. You really don't see how? For 99.9% of the world, a woman's "connection to Woman" is that she is one. I know you guys might be using the terms differently, but doing so only creates endless confusion and results in weird-sounding statements, such as that interacting with a woman is only bad when it "affirms her connection to Woman." Seriously, you don't see how taking that kind of liberty with words and meanings reduces language to a comical level?

Can you rephrase this without saying that interacting with a woman is bad only when it connects her to Woman?

Well, lots of everyday things don't have this character unless you make then have it. Talking to the checkout attendant at the supermarket is harmless unless you flirt with the girl.

And what happens if you do flirt? Catastrophe of Biblical proportions? Flood? Giant bomb? Dutch Elm disease?

Are you sure there's nothing about your views that "goes too far?"

Most business interactions are fine, unless in some way Woman is exploited - in either direction.

"Woman" (capital W) or otherwise, most people are regularly exploited in business interactions.

If there's no engagement or exploitation of that connection to Woman I spoke of, most things are fine. But you have to be aware of when it is actually happening.

This Capital W "Woman" is identical to David's bogeyman of "feminine consciousness" as promoted in Exposition, right? Shouldn't you clarify that before making all of these pronouncements? You can't expect it to be taken for granted, even in this environment.

[Matt Gregory]

How about: Woman = a person's unconscious, biological enslavement to the reproductive cycle. That's how I look at it, anyway.

[David Quinn]

Elizabeth wrote:

You must be joking. If anything, I thought that Kevin went to rather silly lengths to uphold his image as a monk-sage. Add to that the fact that I'm not even so sure that I'm physically capable of sex anymore, that in 2 weeks I turn 38 and Kevin considers 40 year old women to be over-the-hill, and that I am still rather heavy from intentionally gaining weight to keep men from looking at me (and if I had realized that Kevin was judgmental about women's weight, I would not have had the courage to ask him to come over), and keeping in mind that when I asked Kevin over, I only had the universal love for him, and did not even particularly like him on a personal level - although he turned out to be a really decent fellow. Part of the reason I trusted him enough to have him here was that I was quite sure that he would not hit on me.

If Dan's willing to be honest, perhaps he'll tell you about the near nervous breakdown he gave me the night before Kevin arrived convincing me that Kevin would expect a sexual sort of thing, and how shocked I was at even that idea. As a result, I was so scared of Kevin at first that the first couple of days I treated him like he was contaminated or something. Then after I warmed up to him, Kevin still maintained very distant boundaries with me. He was 50 times more involved with my dog than with me, and he didn't do anything inappropriate with her, either.

I wouldn't have expected anything less from Kevin. Indeed, the fact that he went to great lengths to keep his distance indicates that he was acutely aware of the dynamic and its potential dangers. I'm glad that he tried to minimize it, but I'm not convinced that he should have placed himself in that situation to begin with. Not even for America.

He knows that a man's mere presence and attention is more than enough to serve as a sexual catalyst.

But as someone else said, it's his business. I'm not above creating bad karma myself, so I'm not really in a position to pass judgment.

-

[Dan Rowden]

Nat,

Your last post requires more than an off-the-cuff response, so I'll post it when I'm done.

[David Quinn]

It was evening. Kevin had just returned from a long day of sightseeing. I couldn't help but notice there were tiny beads of sweat forming on his noble brow as he walked into the upstairs room.

"Would you like something to drink?" I asked in a sultry voice.

"How about a cup of tea?" Kevin replied.

"A cup of tea? In this heat?" The tension in the room was palpable but Kevin just smiled winsomely.

I turned to heat the water on the stove. The blue of the gas flame formed a compelling visual contrast to the red blush of my cheeks as I opened the tea jar & extracted a bag. I dropped the bag into the biggest cup I had. Somehow, instinctively, I sensed Kevin's unusual appetite.

I turned from the stove to observe Kevin. He'd wandered over to my desk where my cat Bodoni was lounging seductively - just as I would have myself if I'd only had the nerve. Kevin held his hand out to her. I felt a little thrill run up & down my spine, as if he were holding his hand out to me, offering himself & all that he was for my pleasure. My heart beat a little faster.

Kevin stroked Bodoni from head to tail. I shivered. Yes, I'm 58, I thought, but in the gaslight I could pass for 55. Hope sprang up. Could he ever love me, I wondered. But no, I was not worthy of him. I was too old & dried up.

But Bodoni is only 15! Perfect. I watched Kevin caress her & it felt like he was caressing me. The water boiled. I wiped the sweat from my fevered brow & poured it into the cup.

"Here's the tea," I said to Kevin, my voice clogged with passion. He tore himself away from Bodoni & sat at the table. Somewhere outside a lonesome dog howled.

But you're already taken, aren't you. By that Tibetan fellow.

Or have I got you mixed up with someone else?

-

[Unidian]

How about: Woman = a person's unconscious, biological enslavement to the reproductive cycle. That's how I look at it, anyway.

How about Woman = women. That's how I and everyone else look at it. You guys should make up a new terms for "a person's unconscious, biological enslavement to the reproductive cycle." Equating it to the feminine gender is nonsense. In fact, if that's the definition of Woman, then men are the most Womanly creatures on Earth.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I'm not convinced that he should have placed himself in that situation to begin with. Not even for America.

In order to help expand his own wisdom and help spread wisdom in America, Kevin had to tolerate living in the same house as Elizabeth for over a month! The horrible sacrifice! The tragedy! The ridiculously dramatic post! Let us weep for the horrid danger that Kevin put himself in for the sake of Wisdom!

[Unidian]

David,

He knows that a man's mere presence and attention is more than enough to serve as a sexual catalyst.

But as someone else said, it's his business. I'm not above creating bad karma myself, so I'm not really in a position to pass judgment.

Creating bad karma, eh? Oh my. Have you been surreptitiously displaying your shapely lumps of amorphous man-fat to the local ladies again, hoping secretly that one of them will notice your manly exertions as you sweat and strain to pull a dandelion?

[Philosophaster]

Oh my. Have you been surreptitiously displaying your shapely lumps of amorphous man-fat to the local ladies again, hoping secretly that one of them will notice your manly exertions as you sweat and strain to pull a dandelion?

Dude, David has been working out using his new bike:

http://www.philosophaster.com/img/goofy/beardedsage.jpg

Dandelions don't faze him in the least. :-)

[Unidian]

Dang. I bet he has been creating bad karma on that bike. That person running after him does seem to have developed quite an interest.

Bearded sage stole my bike!!!

[Shardrol]

But you're already taken, aren't you. By that Tibetan fellow.

Or have I got you mixed up with someone else?

Well yes you have, but it doesn't matter. Put a paper bag over our posts & all us girls look the same.

[David Quinn]

One can imagine what would happen if the roles were reversed. Imagine if a regular bloke were to contact a renowned female guru and offer to fly her half-way around the world in order to cook and clean for him - and she willingly came and dutifully performed everything that was asked. Think of the erotic pleasure it would give him. Think of the karmic consequences.

-

[Unidian]

Hold on a sec. While I'm sure Kevin has had his share of attention, I think you're inserting false premises here. Outside this forum, which is rather small even if decent-sized by philosophy forum standards, I don't see any evidence that Kevin is "a renowned guru." That mythology is promoted almost exclusively by you. I would submit that it's very unlikely anyone other than perhaps a handful of devotees to Genius Forum philosophy would see Kevin that way. I highly doubt Elizabeth sees him that way, although she may respect him in a more reasonable sense.

Quite frankly, a "renowned guru" would not be the subject of a discussion about whether to have his most important book self-published through Lulu.com. Words have meanings, regardless of your apparent wish that they didn't, and "renowned" doesn't mean that.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

One can imagine what would happen if the roles were reversed. Imagine if a regular bloke were to contact a renowned female guru and offer to fly her half-way around the world in order to cook and clean for him

If the roles were truly reversed, then include that he had suffered some kind of injury or mental breakdown, causing him to be incapable of cooking for himself or cleaning up properly. Kevin did a lot of heavy physical labor here that I would not have been able to do, and was not able to hire anyone locally to do. Consider the karmic repercussions of helping out someone in need who was unable to take care of basic needs without help.

[Matt Gregory]

How about: Woman = a person's unconscious, biological enslavement to the reproductive cycle. That's how I look at it, anyway.

How about Woman = women. That's how I and everyone else look at it. You guys should make up a new terms for "a person's unconscious, biological enslavement to the reproductive cycle." Equating it to the feminine gender is nonsense. In fact, if that's the definition of Woman, then men are the most Womanly creatures on Earth.

I don't think it's nonsense, but I'd better let Dan, the man with the plan, answer.

[Unidian]

E has a point there. Hell, I hate yard work and I really do have a "mental block" about it myself. Hey Kevin, ever have an urge to visit Alabama? We moved the lawn today after months of neglect, and I shit you not, the riding lawnmower engine actually exploded halfway through. I did the rest with the little push mower. No lie. :p

[Matt Gregory]

Elizabeth, why did you ask Kevin in particular, though? Instead, of, I don't know, Dan or Nat or someone? Nat lives right near you, doesn't he?

[Unidian]

I'm in a relationship, and my female partner and Elizabeth don't always get along well. For that matter, Elizabeth and I haven't always gotten along well ourselves. And I don't think she's as interested in what I have to say as what Kevin has to say. Dan, David, and Kevin's philosophy has a strange way of catching some women's interest.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Outside this forum, which is rather small even if decent-sized by philosophy forum standards, I don't see any evidence that Kevin is "a renowned guru." That mythology is promoted almost exclusively by you. I would submit that it's very unlikely anyone other than perhaps a handful of devotees to Genius Forum philosophy would see Kevin that way. I highly doubt Elizabeth sees him that way, although she may respect him in a more reasonable sense.

Agreed that "renowned" is a rather puffed-up description. I do find Kevin to be more reasonable, honorable, and mature than most guys I've met, and that is worthy of respect.

I previously thought similarly of David. Although neither of these men are perfect, I did consider them above the average guy. With David's childish displays on this thread, my opinion of his maturity is dwindling far below the sub-perfect I previously judged him.

[David Quinn]

Shardrol,

DQ: But you're already taken, aren't you. By that Tibetan fellow.

Or have I got you mixed up with someone else?

S: Well yes you have, but it doesn't matter. Put a paper bag over our posts & all us girls look the same.

I thought you had a personal guru of some kind. Or is it just the Buddha himself that you are married to? At the very least, you seem wedded to a particular Buddhist tradition.

I don't want to be rude, and I'm trying my best not to be, but I think it is worth pointing out that if a woman is already taken, then her sexual interplay with other men changes. It is still there in a subconscious form, but because her needs are being met elsewhere she doesn't have any particular craving to activate them or bring them to the foreground. Although she often does this, anyway.

As amusing as your fictional account was, I wonder if many, if not all, of the things you were describing didn't actually happen in one form or another. I know that, as a man, a lot of sexual subconscious processes are instinctively activated inside me whenever I am in the presence of a female, no matter who she is.

-

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Elizabeth, why did you ask Kevin in particular, though? Instead, of, I don't know, Dan or Nat or someone? Nat lives right near you, doesn't he?

Even if Nat was willing to do all that kind of work, which I seriously doubt, his significant other would have killed me for even asking.

Dan was, and is, not in good enough physical condition to do the labor.

Kevin seemed most likely to be capable, available, and most likely to get something he wanted out of the trip. It seemed like the decision that would be of the most benefit to everyone involved.

[Matt Gregory]

I'm in a relationship, and my female partner and Elizabeth don't always get along well. For that matter, Elizabeth and I haven't always gotten along well ourselves. And I don't think she's as interested in what I have to say as what Kevin has to say. Dan, David, and Kevin's philosophy has a strange way of catching some women's interest.

Well, I guess I shouldn't have started naming names, but I'm just wondering why she didn't ask someone closer to her. But I guess you can't beat that cheap Australian labor :)