Toxic Waste AKA Fluoride in water supply and tooth paste

[Nick]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2352089988

Most of the water supply in the USA is fluoridated, it is used in nearly every mainstream toothpaste, and sometimes even prescribed by doctors to children who they say don't get enough fluoride. Fluoride has been shown to deacrease one's overall intelligence, increase passivity, cause ADD, nervous system damage, fluorosis, osteoperosis, cancer and numerous other ailments. It is the active ingredient in rat and cockroach poison. Since fluoride is non-biodegradable it builds up in your body and remains there for quite some time causing extensive damage. Fluoride is NOT biodegradable and can remain in your body for long periods of time after it is been consumed. For tips on how to reduce your fluoride intake and the amount of fluoride built up in your body follow this link.

http://fluoride.squarespace.com/display ... tId=181088

P.S. Most western European countries have banned fluoride from being placed in the watter supply and use far less of it in pesticides and other uses. For the Aussies on the forum, whats the deal with fluoride in the water supply down under?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I"m quite sceptical Nick, pure on logical grounds, since I'm not a scientist:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2352089988

Fluoride has been shown to deacrease one's overall intelligence, increase passivity, cause ADD, nervous system damage, fluorosis, osteoperosis, cancer and numerous other ailments.

Yeah, like many heavy metals and other stuff the body needs, it has side-effects if the dosage is wrong. One has to look exactly at which doses and circumstances fluoride has been shown to damage health. I'm not aware of slam dunk studies or research, are you? There are some indicators it could be more dangerous than generally assumed but hardly uncontested evidence has been put forward.

Fluoride is NOT biodegradable and can remain in your body for long periods of time after it is been consumed.

According to what I know It seems important, as trace element, for bone and teeth structure so yeah, it's supposed to be non-biodegradable that way. Why are you turning it into an argument?

[Nick]

First and foremost, I don't think any "dietary supplements" should be added to the public water supply. It equates to forced medication which is unethical and illegal. Besides, why stop with fluoride and not add other metals or dietary supplements to the water supply? Well to answer that, lets look at the financial reasons there are for putting fluoride in the water supply. Fluoride is a toxic waste byproduct produced by the aluminum industry. If they had to dispose of this the way they do other toxic material it would cost them billions of dollars a year. Instead they can sell it to the public as something supposedly beneficial to our health, and actually make a profit off of it. Now, who's going to make a profit off the removal of fluoride from the water supply? Noones planning on replacing fluoride with another substance, so the answer would be nobody. Only genuinely concerned individuals want to remove fluoride from the water supply. Also, fluoride was promoted as healthy by Harold Hodge, a scientist who was involved in the development of the atomic bomb, which was producing massive amounts of fluoride as a toxic waste byproduct. So logically, it makes sense for him to find a way to make fluoride seem harmless to the public so he doesn't have to deal with any added red tape on the handling of this toxic material. Not to mention he was the same scientist who was head of the human radiation experiments.

According to what I know It seems important, as trace element, for bone and teeth structure so yeah, it's supposed to be non-biodegradable that way. Why are you turning it into an argument?

Quite simply because it is a toxic substance, not because non-biodegradability is inherently bad. It's just another property of the substance that makes it even more harmful.

Heres is a list of the health hazards caused by fluoride. http://www.holisticmed.com/fluoride

Here is a list of countries that have banned fluoride. http://www.fluoridation.com/c-country.htm

[Imadrongo]

Everything is toxic. I'm not overly worried by a little fluoride. Removing fluoride from the water supply isn't really solving the problem either way.

I watched the video and am a little skeptical. They go way way off topic on tangents to try and connect people who advised fluoridation with atomic bombs and other disasters. I'd rather just see some of this evidence that they supposedly have that links low levels of fluoridation with cancer and other problems.

[Boyan]

Sort of off topic - The dentists in tooth paste commercials. He's telling people 'hey, take this toothpaste and you won't have to see me in a long time', which means he will lose his job. Why would he advertise something that would make his profit shrink or make him lose his job?

It's so obvious that product definitely won't improve your teeth health, and more likely it will make it even worse, or slowly harm your body in some other way, making you see a doctor from some other branch of medicine so the profit for the medicine industry is ensured anyway.

'There are more people living from cancer than people dying from it.'

[Faust]

Everything is toxic. I'm not overly worried by a little fluoride. Removing fluoride from the water supply isn't really solving the problem either way.

I watched the video and am a little skeptical. They go way way off topic on tangents to try and connect people who advised fluoridation with atomic bombs and other disasters. I'd rather just see some of this evidence that they supposedly have that links low levels of fluoridation with cancer and other problems.

there is plenty of scientific evidence and research against fluoride, just look it up.

[BMcGilly07]

http://www.just1fruit.com/truth_about_fluoride.htm


Here's the straight dope on fluoride.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

That seems all like very wild speculation combined with some poor research that just opposes other poor research.

While it might be so that fluoride in drinking water or milk might not have the effect as once advertised (and therefore stopped in most countries) it hasn't been proven by anyone that it has side-effects in the quantities we talk about here.

And tooth paste is another matter altogether and tested to a larger extent, including so-called 'fluoride' treatments at the dentist. Dentists may be evil incarnate but they're all still using it, not for ingestion though.

The best study IMO around so far is this one:

http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/fluorid.htm

Conclusion:

We were unable to discover any reliable good-quality evidence in the fluoridation literature world-wide.

What evidence we found suggested that water fluoridation was likely to have a beneficial effect, but that the range could be anywhere from a substantial benefit to a slight disbenefit to children's teeth.

This beneficial effect comes at the expense of an increase in the prevalence of fluorosis (mottled teeth). The quality of this evidence was poor.

An association with water fluoride and other adverse effects such as cancer, bone fracture and Down's syndrome was not found. However, we felt that not enough was known because the quality of the evidence was poor.

The evidence about reducing inequalities in dental health was of poor quality, contradictory and unreliable.

Since the report was published in October 2000 there has been no other scientifically defensible review that would alter the findings of the York review. As emphasized in the report, only high-quality studies can fill in the gaps in knowledge about these and other aspects of fluoridation. Recourse to other evidence of a similar or lower level than that included in the York review, no matter how copious, cannot do this.

And that's that. Lead-foil hats can safely be put away now...

[Cory Duchesne]

http://www.just1fruit.com/truth_about_fluoride.htm


Here's the straight dope on fluoride.

I'm a bit suspicious, because that information against fluoride is of course on a site that is trying to sell a product.

What better way to sell alternative medicine and health food then to make people feel like they've been damaged by their water and need to be repaired with a revolutionary product that only an elite few know about.

The placebo effect caused by stressfully believing the exaggerated claims that your water is harming you, probably does more damage than the fluoride.

It's hard not to suspect hyperbole.

[Faust]

bla bla bla, knowing that fluoride is a byproduct of aluminum and that is used as rat and cockroach poison is enough to convince me. The fact is that since the beginning there was no evidence that it was good for you. Perhaps Cory and company just don't want to think of such a disaster fucking them in the ass (or the mouth) every day.

[ChochemV2]

I'm not going to stop drinking our tap water but I don't necessarily think the show is wrong. There is enough circumstantial evidence there to warrant a serious study of water fluoridation (I missed the last five minutes so I have no idea if one was brought up). Ultimately there are some questions I'd like answered:

1. How much fluoride does our water fluoridation program use and is it significant enough for these industries which produce fluoride as a byproduct to defend it's use in our drinking water?
2. Is fluoride in our water in the low levels it's at right now actually dangerous to the general public and not just people who are allergic or otherwise extra-sensitive to it?
3. Are there significant differences in the health of the general public in the US when compared to countries which have outlawed water fluoridation?
4. What are the lasting effects of fluoride in the doses we normally receive instead of as an air pollutant in manufacturing (and has it been reigned in by industry because it's an air pollutant, the documentary seemed to hint that it has)?
5. Are there any beneficial effects to drinking it? It may not be harmful but there is no reason why industry should be allowed to dispose of a potentially toxic chemical in our water if it has absolutely no positive effects.

I'm sure I could think of more but that covers some of my major questions.

[Iolaus]

I'm not going to stop drinking our tap water

I stopped. For about 50 bucks you can go to http://www.aquaspace.com and get a countertop carafe that will provide a family with water for about 6 months. That's cheap. It's not even only the fluoride. Chlorine may be harmful as well. And there are other pollutants.

I took my filtered water down to the local water treatment plant and had them test it in their high-tech lab. It got out the fluoride and the chloramines, both of which are hard to remove.

[ChochemV2]

Apparently I live in an area without fluoridated water so I don't have to stop drinking our tap water after all.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

bla bla bla, knowing that fluoride is a byproduct of aluminum and that is used as rat and cockroach poison is enough to convince me.

That argument would be more convincing if you'd announce to stop the intake of iron, iodine, manganese and copper too.

Lets do some calculations to get some perspective:

The RDA for copper in normal healthy adults is 0.9 mg/day. Maximum 'safe' occurrence in drinking water: 1.5 to 2 mg/ liter.

Fluoride is normally added like 1 ppm (one particle per million).

Need some conversion here:

With slightly rounded numbers: water has a molecular mass of 18.
A common fluoride like Sodium Hexafluorosilicate has a molecular mass of 188.
Around ten times as heavy then as average water molecules, so one fluoride 'counts' for ten water molecules in mass.

So if 1 of each million particles is the added fluoride, then a kilogram divided by 1,000,000 times 10 = 1 mg added per liter.

Which is about the same as an intake for pure copper, another proven 'poison'. ["Symptoms of copper poisoning are very similar to those produced by arsenic."] And they make even your water pipes from that!

[Nick]

I stopped. For about 50 bucks you can go to http://www.aquaspace.com and get a countertop carafe that will provide a family with water for about 6 months. That's cheap. It's not even only the fluoride. Chlorine may be harmful as well. And there are other pollutants.

I took my filtered water down to the local water treatment plant and had them test it in their high-tech lab. It got out the fluoride and the chloramines, both of which are hard to remove.

I bought this water filter.

[Jamesh]

Fluoride has been shown to deacrease one's overall intelligence, increase passivity, cause ADD, nervous system damage, fluorosis, osteoperosis, cancer and numerous other ailments.

lol, and I thought the degradation in intelligence I've noticed, was just because of women gaining more control over what society does.

When women gain positions of power in business and government, this leads to a lesser degree of questioning of the policies of egotistical bosses by the lower levels. Confrontation of any sort becomes a No-No, therefore people who know that a boss has made an inane, or entirely self-centred decision, don't question it, because the herd becomes uncomfortable with any internal conflict. Conflict is not the feminine way (accept if you are a lesbian, but now with acceptance, even their aggression is dying out), yet without conflict problems do not get resolved, they just become ignorable, because one is fitting in with the safety of the mob. Without conflict there is no growth in the quality of rational thought.

[Faust]

more evidence against fluoride:

http://www.greaterthings.com/Lexicon/F/Fluoride.htm

[Cory Duchesne]

Fluoride has been shown to deacrease one's overall intelligence, increase passivity, cause ADD, nervous system damage, fluorosis, osteoperosis, cancer and numerous other ailments.

lol, and I thought the degradation in intelligence I've noticed, was just because of women gaining more control over what society does.

When women gain positions of power in business and government, this leads to a lesser degree of questioning of the policies of egotistical bosses by the lower levels.

Yes, in my experience, women gain and become contented with lower level management positions, ultimately forming a wall of femininity, dividing the lower level workers, from the highest level bosses (almost all male). When the upper level decisions negatively effect the quality of the business happening at the lower level, the lower level can't communicate to the upper level, because the woman are incapable of passing along the message coherently and honestly. They just absorb and hide the truth like shocks on a car. Their purpose is to make the drive smooth.

Confrontation of any sort becomes a No-No, therefore people who know that a boss has made an inane, or entirely self-centred decision, don't question it, because the herd becomes uncomfortable with any internal conflict.

That's why woman are promoted to lower level management. Because of their unquestioning obedience on the floor. It's insidious in the long run.

Conflict is not the feminine way (accept if you are a lesbian, but now with acceptance, even their aggression is dying out), yet without conflict problems do not get resolved, they just become ignorable, because one is fitting in with the safety of the mob. Without conflict there is no growth in the quality of rational thought.

Precisely. Bitter, dark, cold soil makes a strong tree, whereas a sweet fruit goes rotten.

[Faust]

Bitter, dark, cold soil makes a strong tree, whereas a sweet fruit goes rotten.

yeah and a strong tree MAKES sweet fruit, so the analogy is flawed. I wouldn't consider total submission being a sweet fruit either, unless it's a in a private setting for sexual enjoyment, not in important matters.

[Cory Duchesne]

Bitter, dark, cold soil makes a strong tree, whereas a sweet fruit goes rotten.

yeah and a strong tree MAKES sweet fruit, so the analogy is flawed.

The analogy, especially in the context with the rest of what I was saying, implies that there is a difference between being something that produces that which can go rotten, and actually being rotten. Or better, it's the difference between being something that produces that which can be consumed and turned to shit, and actually being consumed and turned to shit.

I wouldn't consider total submission being a sweet fruit either

Women and men are unquestioning and obedient because it's easiest, less disturbing, more comforting in the immediate.

[Iolaus]

Men a far more obedient than women.

[Cory Duchesne]

Men a far more obedient than women.

In the work place, men tend to be the leaders, the innovators, and more likely to become cynical and exploitative, stealing from the company. Women are more contented with following instructions, playing by the rules, settling for lower positions as well as with trying to make things warm and fuzzy by decorating the office for Christmas, Halloween, Easter, organizing pot-lucks, and organizing parties outside of work.

[Faust]

You're saying that women are more moral in the workplace by playing fairer than men? being innovative and leading is one thing, cynically exploiting and cheating is another.

[Cory Duchesne]

You're saying that women are more moral in the workplace by playing fairer than men? Being innovative and leading is one thing, cynically exploiting and cheating is another.

I think the discussion has veered away from fluoride enough to start a new thread - Serial killers VS. Sefless Geniuses

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Back on topic, it looks like Queensland is now jumping aboard the fluoride bandwagon.