Pay money for ethical work

[Kelly Jones]

I've decided to be a lot more careful to put my money towards supporting rational, truthful people.

So, I won't be paying companies with lying telemarketers, or with greed-oriented products, or couple-up-and-procreate type advertising.

Also, I don't get paid for any inethical behaviour. I'm effectively at work so long as I'm awake. So, every hour I mess up, I put about $3.20 into a Thinker Fund. Perhaps to create a Nature Temple.

Of course, I decide whether or not I've messed up. So there's a bit of a conflict of interest.

I also wonder how much of philosophical writings is guilt-money.


-

[ChochemV2]

Why worry about it?

My house has broadband provided by Comcast which advertises and has telemarketers which regularly call about stupid options which we don't want. Verizon, their competition, does the same thing with their DSL and every dialup company in the area has the same M.O. There is no such thing as a "greed free" form of internet or telephone communication.

There is no way to completely eliminate all of your personal greed-funding unless you make your own clothing, grow your own food, and live completely separated from the world.

[Kelly Jones]

Why worry about it?

It's quite a thought-stimulating experiment. No need for worry.

My house has broadband provided by Comcast which advertises and has telemarketers which regularly call about stupid options which we don't want. Verizon, their competition, does the same thing with their DSL and every dialup company in the area has the same M.O. There is no such thing as a "greed free" form of internet or telephone communication.

If you can't find any alternative to dodgey behaviour, or the effort is exhausting, then, sure, don't waste your energy over it.

But there are usually simple alternatives, like a registering for no-telemarketing (e.g. donotcall.gov.au). Or saying something to the telemarketer to keep yourself from giving into the mindset. Ask them what they're paid per hour, then demand that amount for your time listening. Resisting the garbage is important.

There is no way to completely eliminate all of your personal greed-funding unless you make your own clothing, grow your own food, and live completely separated from the world.

"Buy the best!" "Time's running out, get it before it's all gone!" "Make your loved ones happy!"

So, I'm buying the best examples of thinking, funding quality thinking before it's all gone, and delighting budding Buddhas all over the Universe ....... !


-

[ChochemV2]

It's quite a thought-stimulating experiment. No need for worry.

[/quote]

meh, I just don't see the point but if it's thought stimulating to you then by all means do it.

I don't need the products I buy to reflect my own thinking, as long as they function I don't see the point in wasting time sifting through my options to get someone made by the most "buddha-approved" company.

[Kelly Jones]

People buy things based on values. E.g. money, quality of construction, aesthetics, brand, health, comfort, and so on.

And as we all know, demand creates supply.

So I'm just including consciousness as the most important materialistic value.

-

[ChochemV2]

People buy things based on values. E.g. money, quality of construction, aesthetics, brand, health, comfort, and so on.

Why add another extraneous value to a purchase? It seems much easier to eliminate values which are useless to you and simply focus on what you actually need. Consciousness in the creation of products you buy doesn't seem to be something which you actually need just another useless value which will take up your time and energy to follow.

[DHodges]

Why add another extraneous value to a purchase? It seems much easier to eliminate values which are useless to you and simply focus on what you actually need. Consciousness in the creation of products you buy doesn't seem to be something which you actually need just another useless value which will take up your time and energy to follow.

Let's say you go buy a carpet. It's a really nice carpet, but it was produced using slave labor. Buying that carpet helps support slavery - whether you are aware of it or not.

Would you spend a little more to buy a carpet that was not made with slave labor(1)? Or would you say the hell with it, I like that carpet, I don't care? Would you rather just not know where the carpet comes from, and be ignorant of the kind of world you are helping to create and maintain?

Wouldn't you rather have it that the stuff you buy is not so damaging to the environment, is not produced by slave labor, and so on?


(1) go to http://www.anti-slaverysociety.org/ and click on the link "Child Slaves in the Carpet Industry." Apparently this involves hundreds of thousands of children in India, Nepal and Pakistan.

[ChochemV2]

Let's say you go buy a carpet. It's a really nice carpet, but it was produced using slave labor. Buying that carpet helps support slavery - whether you are aware of it or not.

Would you spend a little more to buy a carpet that was not made with slave labor(1)? Or would you say the hell with it, I like that carpet, I don't care? Would you rather just not know where the carpet comes from, and be ignorant of the kind of world you are helping to create and maintain?

Wouldn't you rather have it that the stuff you buy is not so damaging to the environment, is not produced by slave labor, and so on?

If I just wanted a carpet I wouldn't spend a week researching carpets to determine which are and aren't produced by slave labor before I went out and bought one. I would, instead, go to a carpet store and just pick the one I liked. When I go buy clothing I don't print out a list of brands which use child labor to avoid and the same goes for shoes.

If I knew something was made through slave labor I wouldn't buy it but I don't spend my time worrying about how things I buy are made.

[Tomas]

.


-Choo Choo surmises-

[quote="Kelly Jones"]I've decided to be a lot more careful to put my money towards supporting rational, truthful people.


-tomas-
[with hand out]... Hey babe, I'll tell you whatever you want to hear.


-Choo Choo-
So, I won't be paying companies with lying telemarketers,


-tomas-
Mine doesn't do those sort of sordid activities!


-Choo Choo-
or with greed-oriented products,


-tomas-
Nope, not here.


-Choo Choo-
or couple-up-and-procreate type advertising.


-tomas-
You know the deal.


-Choo Choo-
Also, I don't get paid for any inethical behaviour.


-tomas-
Bah! Ethics went out in the last century, where you been, girl?


-Choo Choo toils-
I'm effectively at work so long as I'm awake.


-tomas-
Humanity grow weary, of its doubtful state of mind.


-Choo Choo threatens-
So, every hour I mess up, I put about $3.20 into a Thinker Fund.


-tomas-
I've an excellent hedge fund investment banker you'd like to talk with...


-Choo Choo-
Perhaps to create a Nature Temple.


-tomas-
We can make that happen. Plant a couple trees you can live in, one for the summer months and other for vacation & reflection. No wireless internet services for the second, tho.


-Choo Choo-
Of course, I decide whether or not I've messed up.


-tomas-
Catch 22.


-Choo Choo-
So there's a bit of a conflict of interest.


-tomas-
Most women have the scattter-brain effect.


-Choo Choo-
I also wonder how much of philosophical writings is guilt-money.


-tomas-
I'll start a tax-deductable church just for your guilt offerings. (It's the least I can do because of your forebears criminal backgrounds.)


.

[DHodges]

If I knew something was made through slave labor I wouldn't buy it

Well, now you know: carpets, diamonds and chocolate are big problem areas.

but I don't spend my time worrying about how things I buy are made.

Well, maybe you should. If you don't care, the companies that import these things don't have to care, either; they just go for the lowest price. Things can be made pretty cheaply if you don't care who or what you destroy in the process.

If you don't care about slave labor, how about manufacturing that poisons the water and air? Yes, the factories may be in China, but still, there's only so much water and air out there. Part of the cost of what you buy, is to have that pollution happen in another country. But eventually it ends up everywhere.

[ChochemV2]

Well, now you know: carpets, diamonds and chocolate are big problem areas.

I don't own a floor to carpet (though I bet it's probably rugs and not carpet which is made by slave labor). I don't buy diamonds and really don't intend on doing so at this point and I'm on a diet of sorts so chocolate is out. So I guess I'm doing alright for the moment.

Well, maybe you should. If you don't care, the companies that import these things don't have to care, either; they just go for the lowest price. Things can be made pretty cheaply if you don't care who or what you destroy in the process.

I see this in the same way I see the gun control problem: you won't fix child labor, slavery, and the like by simply boycotting everything because a.) You won't ever get enough people to boycott to kill the industry and b.) They will just go make something else if the rug industry caves in. The society which allows child labor is at fault for putting their children to work and has to be fixed. Until countries are willing to effect real change and people willing to demand social services, real wages, and a government which cares about them no amount of boycotting will do a thing but hurt people who can't live without these wages, even if it's a fifty cents a day.

If you don't care about slave labor, how about manufacturing that poisons the water and air? Yes, the factories may be in China, but still, there's only so much water and air out there. Part of the cost of what you buy, is to have that pollution happen in another country. But eventually it ends up everywhere.

Once again, if I were to stop buying everything with a "Made in China" tag it wouldn't change the world.

[Nick]

Once again, if I were to stop buying everything with a "Made in China" tag it wouldn't change the world.

I get disgusted everytime I hear someone use the general excuse, "Why should I change my ways when nobody else will?". I've heard that excuse so many times it's obvious people just don't give a shit as long as they aren't affected by the damage they cause. If they really cared then they would realize that if they stopped with the excuses and instead actually took some responsibility upon themselves to make a difference we could really start to make some progress in the right direction. Never underestimate the power of the individual. "All the darkness in the world isn't eneough to extinguish the light of a small candle." - Kevin Solway's Thinking Man's Minefield

[ChochemV2]

I get disgusted everytime I hear someone use the general excuse, "Why should I change my ways when nobody else will?". I've heard that excuse so many times it's obvious people just don't give a shit as long as they aren't affected by the damage they cause. If they really cared then they would realize that if they stopped with the excuses and instead actually took some responsibility upon themselves to make a difference we could really start to make some progress in the right direction. Never underestimate the power of the individual. "All the darkness in the world isn't eneough to extinguish the light of a small candle." - Kevin Solway's Thinking Man's Minefield

Being disgusted doesn't give you any better understanding of the issue. The fact is these are countries which allow their people to be exploited. These people may be paid next to nothing but what they do make puts food on the table and if you take away that salary all it does it take food off the table. If these countries could stand on their own without slave labor money they would have done so before the factories were built. You can't make a chair to stand up through force of will if it only has two legs.

[Kelly Jones]

Tomas,

I am guessing you have become world-weary. And, become unsure about the possibility of giving up world-weariness, because almost everyone else is quick to feign nonchalance, and "cool" disillusionment.

My reply is: yes, it's easier to take the popular stance:----

[with hand out]... Hey babe, I'll tell you whatever you want to hear.

----but in the long term, it is much harder. Because, living like others eats away at one's strength as an individual.



-

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I think Kelly's on the right track with this. I do not support telemarketing, so no matter how good of a deal someone offers me on the phone, I don't take it because I do not support that form of advertising (I find it unethical). One should think about everything one does, and what one financially supports is, IMO, the most consistently effective thing one can do to influence the world into better behavior.

If she wants to penalize herself with a thinking fund, I find that a bit extreme; but she's an ascetic, so if that works for her - that's fine by me.

[Kelly Jones]

What's an ascetic?

[ChochemV2]

Ascetic

[Kelly Jones]

If "self-mortify" means living in such a way that certain thoughts die, then yes, I'm ascetic.

Usually self-mortify means whipping oneself into a frenzy of egotism. Like "I shouldn't be selfish, I shouldn't do things for myself, I shouldn't think selfish thoughts, I should live for others, I should be compassionate, I should empty my mind of all thinking, I should drift along in contemplation of now, I should let go of all anger and hate, oh wow, I'm really enjoying these achievement-oriented activities, what fun, what a success! I should be thinking, um, something different now......... Anything at all will do, gotta keep the pace up........"

[Leaps into a different tree in search of more fruit]

-

[ChochemV2]

I think the general idea is someone removed from the world for intellectual pursuits while leading a simpler life than is the norm. So instead of working you think, instead of buying useless crap you don't.

[Kelly Jones]

I think the general idea is someone removed from the world for intellectual pursuits while leading a simpler life than is the norm. So instead of working you think, instead of buying useless crap you don't.

Having no mental desire for the world, while living right in the midst, yes.

Holding to no appearances.

-

A "truth fund" doesn't work like a credit card. The memories don't go change if one "does something right". The karma continues.

But by reducing the creation-rate of bad karma, its effects, its "rebirth power" is also reduced. So memories, while they don't change, don't return. So the triggers, and desires, about and for the world, are no longer there.

-

[sue hindmarsh]

Kelly,

I'm not sure what you mean by putting your money "towards supporting rational, truthful people"? Are you thinking along the lines of Dave and Nick? And an example of a "rational" and "truthful" company would be one such as Oxfam?

You wrote:

So, I won't be paying companies with lying telemarketers, or with greed-oriented products, or couple-up-and-procreate type advertising.

Again, I'm not sure of your point. I've got a computer, a fridge, a washing machine, etc which all come from companies that advertise their products in an effort to sell them for as big a profit as they can. The nature of business is to do just that. Even a company like Oxfam advertise to increase sales and profit. The greater profit they have, the more people they can assist.

As a consumer, I want products that save water and power, as well as being constructed to last. Companies that advertise that their products have these qualities are the ones that get my dollar. I also try and buy Australian made products, but since we hardly manufacture anything anymore, it is becoming more difficult to do so.

Also, I don't get paid for any inethical behaviour. I'm effectively at work so long as I'm awake. So, every hour I mess up, I put about $3.20 into a Thinker Fund. Perhaps to create a Nature Temple.

That's your business what you do with your money, but I have to ask - what's a "Nature Temple"?

I also wonder how much of philosophical writings is guilt-money.

What do you mean?

-

[Kelly Jones]

I'm not sure what you mean by putting your money "towards supporting rational, truthful people"? Are you thinking along the lines of Dave and Nick? And an example of a "rational" and "truthful" company would be one such as Oxfam?

I'm thinking of anyone who is conscious and doesn't emotionally manipulate to preserve irrational beliefs.

K: So, I won't be paying companies with lying telemarketers, or with greed-oriented products, or couple-up-and-procreate type advertising.

S: Again, I'm not sure of your point. I've got a computer, a fridge, a washing machine, etc which all come from companies that advertise their products in an effort to sell them for as big a profit as they can. The nature of business is to do just that. Even a company like Oxfam advertise to increase sales and profit. The greater profit they have, the more people they can assist.

If someone emotionally manipulates another to preserve irrational beliefs, then I really struggle to see how they are assisting people.

A person might be picking abandoned four-year-olds off the street in Kazakhstan, and feeding and sheltering them, but this usually enforces the belief that, if one does such things, then one is a good, decent person, and all guilt is thereby absolved.

As a consumer, I want products that save water and power, as well as being constructed to last. Companies that advertise that their products have these qualities are the ones that get my dollar. I also try and buy Australian made products, but since we hardly manufacture anything anymore, it is becoming more difficult to do so.

I see no problem with those values, so long as they don't obscure consciousness.

If any values are more important than consciousness (truth) then they do obscure, and diminish, consciousness.

K: Also, I don't get paid for any inethical behaviour. I'm effectively at work so long as I'm awake. So, every hour I mess up, I put about $3.20 into a Thinker Fund. Perhaps to create a Nature Temple.

S: That's your business what you do with your money,

I don't see any value in making decisions without having sound reasoning behind them. I also don't see any value in hiding decisions, and what one does with one's beliefs. Money is how values are expressed socially - that's all.

but I have to ask - what's a "Nature Temple"?

An expression of values. Just as social infrastructure expresses values, so does a temple to Nature.

Kevin mentioned the idea when I told him about my "Thinkers' Shed" plan a year ago. It's basically exactly the same idea I had, only more public and touristy.

I told you about the Thinkers' Shed plan, I think?

K: I also wonder how much of philosophical writings is guilt-money.

S: What do you mean?

Thoughts that are driven by shame, fear, regret, and great contempt over allowing weakness and illogic to continue, when just a little more effort averts.


-

[Leyla Shen]

I just got a call from some company conducting a survey.

The first thing the fellow did was to try and assure me he was not selling anything, to which I responded, “Of course you are.”

He then explained it was just a short survey and attempted to launch straight into it without a breath in between. So, I cut him off with the question, “For what company are you conducting this survey,” and he repeated his company’s name. I said, “Yes, that’s the company you work for, but for whose benefit is this information?” He said, “You’re asking too many questions.” So, I said, “OK, thanks. Goodbye,” and hung up.

I dealt with door-knocking Jehovah’s Witnesses in a similar fashion.

[Kelly Jones]

You have four options:
Stupid A
Stupid B
Stupid C
Stupid D
Now choose one option:......

I think the best response is to be yourself. Don't try to be someone else.

It's more natural.

-

[sue hindmarsh]

Kelly wrote:

If someone emotionally manipulates another to preserve irrational beliefs, then I really struggle to see how they are assisting people.

I don’t think people “preserve” those “irrational beliefs” out of sheer bloody mindedness. They don’t say, for instance, “I know the beliefs I base my life upon are totally irrational; but stuff it, I’m going to stick with them anyway.” For them to do so would mean that they knew what it meant to live truthfully, but decided to ignore that knowledge to be able to enjoy the pleasure and pain generated from lives based on false beliefs.

Out of the small number of people I’ve encountered who understood, to varying degrees, the truth about existence, only one of them has admitted that living according to the truth wasn’t for him. But turning his back on truth wasn’t done to cause harm to others - he simply had too many unresolved attachments making it impossible for him to connect whole heartedly with what he knew to be true.

He was just one man, but there have also been quite a few people over the years that have popped up on this forum showing a spark of consciousness. Most of them left and have never been heard of again. If they once again took refuge in irrationality it wasn't intentionally done so that they could wreak havoc upon the earth. Finding solace in irrationality means they hadn’t really broken from it in the first place. They may have been drawn mentally to the concept of truth, but they lacked the heart and stomach to focus on it alone. And without that focus, truth always remains a separate entity.

The bottom line is that every person is wholly dependent on circumstances (God/Tao/The Infinite) for everything they do and think. People are therefore completely innocent in all that they do and think. They are literally doing the best they can in each and every moment.

A person might be picking abandoned four-year-olds off the street in Kazakhstan, and feeding and sheltering them, but this usually enforces the belief that, if one does such things, then one is a good, decent person, and all guilt is thereby absolved.

Helping children isn't an irrational act in itself; what causes it to be so, as you point out, is people thinking they have done something “good”. The idea comes from the belief of an inherently existing self that is able to act independently from all other things. This is the basis of all mindless egotism - resulting in, for example, peoples fighting wars over possessions which aren't theirs in the first place, because they, as separate entities, do not exist. And out of this madness comes the situation of children finding themselves abandoned and in need of assistance.

And then the hellish cycle continues.

-

Acts that are done knowing the true nature of the self have a far greater chance of rational outcomes than those acts based on irrational beliefs. But getting people to loosen their grip on their false concept of the self is an extremely difficult thing to do - as they can't imagine existence without it.

-