Enlightened man needs insight from Geniuses

[unwise]

I saw the following on another website. It is a very strange bit of 'trickery.' I don't claim to be a genius or even wise, but I know you do. I only claim to be enlightened and point out that you misuse this term. Anyhoo, knowing that you don't believe in magic or funny unseen forces or ESP or anything unscientific or unprovable, I was wondering what you make of this. You already have your gold stars and Magna Cum Ladi-Da, so I have nothing to offer you for your solution. I have my own opinion about it. What is yours?

(oh, by the way, if you would like to subscribe to my musical podcasts, you can do it here: adventures in garage band

Last week I attended a show featuring a "mentalist". Prior to the show, he approached me and asked if I would participate in his show. I agreed. He gave me a small piece of paper and asked me to write down a 2 digit number higher than 37. He walked away from the table, I covered the paper with my hand, wrote down "55" and folded the paper. He told me to hang on to it. He never touched it or got near it.

During the show he asked me to think of the number I wrote down.

He wrote this grid of numbers on a flip chart he had on the stage:





He asked me if I saw my number up there, and I said no.

He then added each row across, down and diagonally - each time they added up to my number - "55".

Any ideas how he did it? Precluding a hidden camera or mirrors, I can't figured it out!
__________________

[Diebert van Rhijn]

You never wondered why the guy had to write it down on the piece of paper the magician provided? Why not just read the mind or use 3rd party material? Many ways to get the number using special types of paper, several switching tricks, special pens or even hidden observers that can signal the number back. The variations are endless. Without careful analysis of the environment and all the details and materials of the trick, speculation is totally useless and a waste of brain.

Creating magical squares of "doubly even order" is not that difficult once you know the magic number. The trick only contains it to distract the audience from what just happened before.

All in all a waste of your mind and a demonstration of your lack of critical skills, demonstrating a need for complex, fuzzy, indiscriminating distractions to keep your cherished shaky enlightenment in tact.

[unwise]

What are you talking about? The magician never touched or saw the paper again. The woman covered her number as she wrote it and then folded it up and put it in her purse. How would the magician know what number she wrote down?

[ExpectantlyIronic]

Most tricks of that sort are psychological. I imagine that almost everyone chooses 55 if asked to pick a two-digit number higher then 37.

[unwise]

That's a pretty risky assumption and not very logical.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

What are you talking about? The magician never touched or saw the paper again. The woman covered her number as she wrote it and then folded it up and put it in her purse. How would the magician know what number she wrote down?

You quoted the story from "on another website" you say? Where you there or did you leave parts of the story out since you supply suddenly much more detail. Did she cover the paper and the pen? Where did the pen came from? Was the wobbling end perhaps visible? What kind of paper was it? Was it ever examined? On what underlying surface did the paper rest, some desk supplied, someone's back?

It's amazing what a magician can do if you let him prepare the trick on his terms. Do you think it was a magician or 'mentalist' as the witness called him? Do you think there's a difference?

EI is way off with his psychological thing. There are indeed numbers that have a higher chance to be picked but this works best on a more limited choice of picks, not between 37-99 but like 1-9.

[Shardrol]

Since there were particular conditions placed on the number she thought of (two digits, more than 37, which means between 38 & 99) I would assume that it is one of those bizarro mathematical effects like the one where they tell you to think of a number & then perform various arithmetical operations on it so that in the end, no matter what number it was, it comes out as the answer after you've performed all the operations. In this too the scope of numbers that can be used is limited. I do not have any particular talent for seeing the patterns in these things but I bet if she had said her number was on the chart, he would have written another series of numbers (according to some particular pattern) & continued until he found the one where her number wasn't on the chart. Then, because of the pattern, it would work out that all the rows added up to her number, etc. Anyway I think it's something like that, though I don't have any insights into the pattern.

If he was finding the answer through some kind of 'psychic' means or stage magic, there would have been no need for the chart of numbers. He could have just looked off into the aether, pretended to consider it for a bit & then said "55" which would be more impressive than messing around with Sudokuesque charts.

When I was much younger I used to play a game called Mr Mystic with my cousin. I'd be somewhere & ask someone to think of a number between 1 & 25 & tell me what it is. I told them I'd phone Mr Mystic who would guess the number & tell them on the phone. As soon as my cousin picked up the phone & heard me say "Hello Mr Mystic" he'd start reciting numbers; 1, 2, 3 etc. When he got to the right one I'd interrupt him by saying something like "It's great to talk to you again - how are you doing?" Then he'd repeat the number he thought it was (just as a safeguard) & if it was right I'd say "Listen Mr Mystic, I have this friend here who would like you to guess a number that he's thinking of". If it was wrong I would say something else, not mentioning the friend & he'd start reciting numbers again. Then I'd hand the phone to the friend & Mr Mystic would tell him the number. It always worked. Maybe I had a bunch of dumb friends but no one ever figured it out.

[ExpectantlyIronic]

It's amazing what a magician can do if you let him prepare the trick on his terms. Do you think it was a magician or 'mentalist' as the witness called him? Do you think there's a difference?

After doing some reading I've discovered that there is a difference. Mentalists tend to do tricks that exploit psychological tendencies. For instance, the mentalist Banachek will make subtle shapes with his hands when asking someone to choose a shape. This influences their choice, and makes it more likely that they'll choose what he wants them to. Furthermore, the tricks of said mentalists don't always work. In an article I read about Banachek he freely admitted as much. The very fact that the mentalist in question asked for a "a 2 digit number higher than 37" pretty much closes the lid on this one for me. It's obviously designed to lead someone to make a particular choice, and that choice could have been further influenced by the magicians speech, body movements, or the stage set-up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism

[Ryan Rudolph]

Unwise is up to his old tricks I see... magic tricks.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

but I bet if she had said her number was on the chart, he would have written another series of numbers (according to some particular pattern) & continued until he found the one where her number wasn't on the chart.

C'mon Shard, that doesn't pass the bullshit test. If he'd start adding to the chart after the first guess all the magic would be gone. The square has only one purpose and that is to lead to #55, no other one. That's why they call it magical squares, it has no other properties that could lead to dozens of other numbers.

If he was finding the answer through some kind of 'psychic' means or stage magic, there would have been no need for the chart of numbers. He could have just looked off into the aether, pretended to consider it for a bit & then said "55" which would be more impressive than messing around with Sudokuesque charts.

That's exactly what many people don't understand about magicians: the 'show' element is very important to A. distract the viewer during the trick B. discourage viewers to think right after the trick and C. to make a very simple trick look more than it really is. The wizard of Oz: the more spectacle, the more noise, the more 'magical' it becomes. That's why the magical square is there.

No wonder our own local Ozzian Wizard is so unwisely attracted to this and uses the whole topic to create even more buzz to hide his own trickery (like: attention while there's nothing to see)

[Jamesh]

He asked me if I saw my number up there, and I said no.

Why would he ask that when all the numbers are under 37?

It would be hard to create a grid like that in the moment, that added up to 55.

I wonder what sort of flip chart it was. Was it thick enough to have approx 62 pages. Why did he have a flip chart when he actually wrote the numbers out.

[Dan Rowden]

I know the solution, but if I say I'l have to kill everyone; it's just the code.

[unwise]

Yes, I did have some additional info. She was talking about it. Here is more of her description:

He never touched the piece of paper after he initially handed it to me. He stepped away from the table, I covered the paper with my hand, folded it and put it in my purse. My friends were behind me and there was nobody else around.

When he wrote the grid out onstage while I stood at my chair in the audience, he wrote the numbers out kind of slowly while he was bantering with me (Him: "Where are you from?" Me: "Long Beach, CA" Him: "I'm sorry?" Me: "Long Beach" Him: "Oh, I heard you, I said I was sorry." - audience laughing etc) Possibly some time killing so he could do some quick addition?

I know the grid is a math trick, but how did he get to the number 55?

There is also a video of the guy doing it with the number 50. This is pretty cool. Check him out in action:

http://www.mercuryemails.com/stetson/Stetson_clip2.mpg

[Jamesh]

I don't know the answer, but I notice the only numbers they had to write down were 30,29,32,31 for the 50 and
35,34, 37, 36 for the 55, in the same order. The two patterns are otherwise the same.

[HUNTEDvsINVIS]

Hi! Cool trick! It could be hypnosis, where the guy has 55 in mind and makes you think it. There was a card trick on bored.com that I actually fell for. In the beginning everyone does...but I figured out that after you chose the card in your mind, the computer spits out a new pack of cards without your selected card. But that's only because the ENTIRE PACK has been redone! So you think like an idiot that the computer read your mind and saw your card. Anyway, be careful of not believing in the supernatural...my mother actually went to a psychic once who was accurate. Very scary. The thing that sends chills down my spine? The psychic said that she can foresee her own death and sometimes other people's deaths as well. Ok I know it sounds bogus, but no one is more of a rationalist than me, and I think the woman has something. She touches objects that contain a lot of your energy ( like your car keys ) and then gets images. Anyway, I will think about the magic square thing for a while.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

He asked me if I saw my number up there, and I said no.

Why would he ask that when all the numbers are under 37?

Because he only uses numbers under 37 to draw up the magic square. The trick would be ruined if the audience member would see his number being drawn up before the 'dramatic moment'.

The question is then of course rhetorical, like most words and questions during a trick.

Gosh, nobody here ever thought about how stage magicians worked, studied their moves? It's a good practice to sharpen observation.

It would be hard to create a grid like that in the moment, that added up to 55.

It isn't really, see the link I provided earlier. One can learn to draw them up in a fairly quick tempo. One could even learn them by heart I suppose.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Yes, I did have some additional info. She was talking about it. Here is more of her description:

He never touched the piece of paper after he initially handed it to me. He stepped away from the table, I covered the paper with my hand, folded it and put it in my purse. My friends were behind me and there was nobody else around.

When he wrote the grid out onstage while I stood at my chair in the audience, he wrote the numbers out kind of slowly while he was bantering with me (Him: "Where are you from?" Me: "Long Beach, CA" Him: "I'm sorry?" Me: "Long Beach" Him: "Oh, I heard you, I said I was sorry." - audience laughing etc) Possibly some time killing so he could do some quick addition?

I know the grid is a math trick, but how did he get to the number 55?

It still doesn't address where the pencil was coming from and what surface was written on, the table I suppose. A magician's table...

For these kind of tricks it's not necessary, or even possible, to arrive at the exact answer during analysis. Just seeing a couple of good possibilities which are impossible to check in hindsight should be enough to lose interest, in my opinion.

[unwise]

Try making up a chart like that based on other numbers over 50. They are extrememly difficult to make add up correctly. But, I'm no genius, so I leave it to you.

The only thing that seems to make any logical sense is that the magician either had a camera trained on the woman writing the number down and had that info radioed to him. Or, the paper is special top secret paper that can signal what has been written on it by remote control. Or the table has this. What would have happened if the woman had selected one of MANY numbers in which a table of figures COULD NOT add up? What would the magician do then?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Try making up a chart like that based on other numbers over 50. They are extrememly difficult to make add up correctly. But, I'm no genius, so I leave it to you.

No, it's actually way easier for higher numbers! It's primary school level maths so no need to make excuses.

Check the above square again, but instead of 34, 35, 36, 37 use the numbers 4,5,6 and 7. You'll get a magic square resulting in 25 (=55-30). Now you see that you can easily adapt this one square to reach any number you want. These four key numbers only appear once in every horizontal, vertical or diagonal and can be increased by whatever number needed to reach the number we know the audience member has chosen.

So your impression that it's extremely' difficult to draw one up can be seen now to be a myth, a trick. Because high numbers are forced, one can just use the same one magic square over and over again. Drawing up squares for lower numbers is a bit more tricky as a square might have to be redesigned in real time (as I assumed at first was done but I didn't think it over really yet and that might take just to much time to do during the asking of the questions).

The only thing that seems to make any logical sense is that the magician either had a camera trained on the woman writing the number down and had that info radioed to him. Or, the paper is special top secret paper that can signal what has been written on it by remote control. Or the table has this.

Sure, or a combination of the above in case the woman would write the paper in some unusual way.

What would have happened if the woman had selected one of MANY numbers in which a table of figures COULD NOT add up? What would the magician do then?

As I wrote above, there's no such number, unless it would be lower than 21 perhaps which was not allowed. Not sure why 37 was chosen as limit instead but I don't want to think about it any longer.

[Edit: it must be coincedence that 37 shows up as highest number in the graph. Could have been 47 if the number to reach had to be 65 instead.]

[unwise]

I'm not sure if a chart could quickly be put together for any number over 50 that adds up correctly vertically, horizontally and diagonally. -- Plus adds up in all the 4 box areas that he drew all over the chart. (see video).

But, anyway, this is NOT the problem, of course. This is a side issue. The problem is HOW does he know the number she chose?

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

unwise,

Here or just google magic or magician.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Unwise, you're not sure because you have decided not to give it any thought, not even the elementary school level type as described above. Fine by me, keep practicing no-thought and be stunned by every mystery, why not?

How the magician could arrive at the number is no problem either since there are already a range of options given. How could you arrive at the 'truth' without doing some on-site investigation? It seems impossible to be sure, unsolvable to that specific degree if you will.

But point is that it doesn't have to be a problem anymore.

Now what about the trick where someone has to think of a playing card, not saying anything, and the magician pops that very card out of his deck? That is a more challenging puzzle I'd say and the trick does happen. Can you give a a suggestion how this would work or in which circumstances it might be pulled off?

[unwise]

Yes the card tricks can be really amazing. I've seen tricks that defy all explanation. I wonder how the person committed to pure rationalism sees these things. It must keep you up at night. It would me. What do you do when you encounter something which just can't be explained by any logical or scientific analysis? I'm just wondering.....

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Yes the card tricks can be really amazing. I've seen tricks that defy all explanation. I wonder how the person committed to pure rationalism sees these things. It must keep you up at night. It would me.

Being committed to rationality doesn't mean having always the answers ready. But before leaping to a conclusion about something being beyond trickery, psychology or coincidence, it needs quite some reliable evidence. And voila the scientific method is born. When a good explanation cannot be found it's perfectly okay to call is unexplainable or unidentified for the time being without this proving anything but the limitation of what you currently can find out. And then it can be useful to create some speculation about unknown causes.

A wise man knows that life is pretty complex and the causal web is endless. He also knows we often see what we desire to see, or refuse to think about what we feel uncomfortably thinking about (for example how short-sighted or how fantasy-prone one is ). A con man knows this as well and tries to make a living with it, legally or illegally. Or exercise some form of power and will just for fun.

Magicians sometimes boost that many of their tricks, for example spoon bending, work very well on rational, scientific types because they don't expect the more rude or obvious trickery and deception. They assume the trick follows one hidden mechanism but it's often a complex of tools, psychology, human nature and devious preparation - or just some extremely obvious fact that is too embarrassing to even consider. Not something a white coated lab brain assumes that easily.

What do you do when you encounter something which just can't be explained by any logical or scientific analysis? I'm just wondering.....

Most of what we encounter isn't explained at all if you seriously think about it. One still has to believe in the explanation to suffice for practical purposes.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Yes the card tricks can be really amazing. I've seen tricks that defy all explanation. I wonder how the person committed to pure rationalism sees these things. It must keep you up at night. It would me. What do you do when you encounter something which just can't be explained by any logical or scientific analysis? I'm just wondering.....

I can't imagine any rational person losing sleep over a card trick.