American National Anti-Gun Association

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

This is what I mean by: no one can impose their will on you. You choose how to respond - so long as you're conscious.

So even you admit that when criminals brutalize someone to death/unconsciousness, they have imposed their will on you.

Speaking of how gangs/guns affect American daily life, one person even mentioned the same thing I said earlier in this thread:

from the article

Her husband Al isn't worried, “You watch around you and keep aware what's around you it's cool.”

***ignore the rest of this post unless you want to find entertainment in a cat fight. Katy's itching for another one of those, and for whatever reason, I feel like rebutting some things*****

I took a week break because I got out of school for a week between semesters and went to visit my parents in Atlanta. I was rather busy catching up with old friends and visiting with people.

You've posted from your parent's house before.

FP is back up and running, so I've been more active over there. I've been wandering from board to board since the '90s. The fact is that if FP is dead this is the last decent philosophy message board around, and I enjoy them. So I'm here.

Not even consistent. According to this, if FP is dead, this is the only decent philosophy message board, but FP is back up and running, so you've been more active over there, which is why you are here...

And get help for your paranoid schizophrenia. Seriously. People are not after you. (and you're going to take that as being nasty, but it is genuine.

Women hardly, if ever, lie.

So Katy makes up mental health diagnoses on various people she does not like and states them as though they are fact even though she knows her statements are false because...
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[Jason]

Actually, Natural rights do exist. It's what we're able to do when other people aren't imposing their will upon us.

I'm sure you've noticed this: nature allows people to impose their will upon others. You are part of the US military aren't you? Might makes right. I like the wording of this quote from Max Stirner "Whoever knows how to take, to defend, the thing, to him belongs property." Although it probably doesn't match the original meaning, Crowley's Law of Thelema can be re-interpreted in the same spirit "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"

[Kelly Jones]

Kelly: This is what I mean by: no one can impose their will on you. You choose how to respond - so long as you're conscious.

Elizabeth: So even you admit that when criminals brutalize someone to death/unconsciousness, they have imposed their will on you.

One's own thoughts have a dramatic effect on how the world is created. That is the point I've been struggling to get you lot to see.

You either see it or you don't.

-

[DHodges]

In New York City where I live it costs over $500 just to apply for a gun license. If the license is denied, you don't get the money back.

Yes, it is essentially illegal to have a gun in New York City. (NYC still has a highish crime rate, though.)

Meanwhile there is a thriving business in illegal weapons & anyone who wants to own a gun can buy one illegally for less than it costs to apply for the license.

This makes it easy for the cops: if someone has a gun, shoot them. Cops are not known for being deep thinkers. They like to keep it simple.


Meanwhile, the New York State Constitution says:

That the People have a right to keep and bear Arms; that a well regulated Militia, including the body of the People capable of bearing Arms, is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free State;

If there were some widely-publicized cases of people who allowed themselves to be robbed, raped or killed because they felt so strongly that violence was not a proper reaction to any situation, that might make an impression - at least on some people.

I think the general impression would be, what the hell? What kind of dumbass doesn't defend themselves when attacked? That's just common sense.

[DHodges]

One's own thoughts have a dramatic effect on how the world is created. That is the point I've been struggling to get you lot to see.

Is that what you mean when you said that it's not about guns, that the guns are symbolic?

[Shardrol]

I think the anti-gun lobby gets its martyrs in the form of 6 year olds who accidentally shoot themselves with dad's gun, or from the likes of Cho.

That sort of 'martyrdom' only makes people want to support the irrational idea of gun control when, as I mentioned, the only result of that would be to make it harder for law-abiding citizens to get guns, but would not have any effect on guns in the hands of nutters & criminals.

These things lead to fear which is one of the most powerful motivators on earth.

I agree, but what fear comes up with is the dumbbell idea of stepping into the middle of a complicated situation waving a Band-Aid like 'gun control'.
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[ChochemV2]

Yes, it is essentially illegal to have a gun in New York City. (NYC still has a highish crime rate, though.)

Actually, New York City has an amazingly low crime rate compared to other large cities in the US and it it's own past. Numerically it may look high, however, if you compare it to rates per 100,000 from other cities it's practically tame.

Philadelphia, for example, has a higher rate for every kind of violent and property crime, some significantly.

(2003 data)

New York, N.Y.:
Murders: 7.4
Rape: 19.9
Robbery: 321
Aggravated Assault: 386
Burglary: 349
Theft: 1,542
Auto Theft: 292

Philadelphia, Pa.:
Murders: 23.3
Rape: 67.1
Robbery: 643
Aggravated Assault: 645
Burglary: 712
Theft: 2,531
Auto Theft: 931

All rates are #/100,000 Inhabitants

Crime Rates

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

From your list of 50 cities, there were still only 14 with a lower murder rate than NYC.

Edit to add - and for the same year (2003) the state of Alaska had a lower murder rate than NYC (6 per 100,000) according to this chart, yet it has probably the most lax gun laws in the union. Of course, Alaska is about as sparsely populated as Australia with only a few big cities, and the attitude there is about as relaxed as I'm hearing described for Australia as well.
.

[Katy]

***ignore the rest of this post unless you want to find entertainment in a cat fight. Katy's itching for another one of those, and for whatever reason, I feel like rebutting some things*****

No. I replied on topic; you attacked me. You are the one who consistantly starts this elizabth. The fact that you can't see this is hilarious.

You've posted from your parent's house before.

Yes, but I was busy this time.
Mostly, I was trying to re-learn Spanish 1002 so that I can start Spanish 2001 tomorrow. On top of that I spent 5 of the 6 evenings out with friends and being social, whereas normally I only spend 2 of 7 out when I go home. Some people leave their houses and do things with people. It makes their presence online a bit inconsistant at times, but it's much healthier.

Look around. I haven't visited BA nor any of the more social yuku boards I generally read in a couple weeks either. Had other things to do.

At any rate, you're looking at final exams followed by being social and studying, not a conspiracy to "get you"

Should I register my breaks with you? Let's see - I have final exams June 15th and that will likely limit participation. I also have finals July 19th, and this will be followed by a trip to the beach for a weekend. I am then going to Colorado for a week and won't have much internet for the time period I am there. When I get home, I will be active for approximately 10 days before I am moving to a new apartment on August 10th. I don't know how long it will take before I am up and running again from the move.

Is that OK with you? I won't be colliding with any of your breaks or making you feel lonely without anyone to attack over here?

FP is back up and running, so I've been more active over there. I've been wandering from board to board since the '90s. The fact is that if FP is dead this is the last decent philosophy message board around, and I enjoy them. So I'm here.

Not even consistent. According to this, if FP is dead, this is the only decent philosophy message board, but FP is back up and running, so you've been more active over there, which is why you are here...

No. I've had limited time online, and I have spent it at FP attempting to get it back up and running. The effort is partially, but not fully, successful, and now that I'm back at school and have time I'm able to both post new topics at FP and reply to topics here.

And get help for your paranoid schizophrenia. Seriously. People are not after you. (and you're going to take that as being nasty, but it is genuine.

Women hardly, if ever, lie.

So Katy makes up mental health diagnoses on various people she does not like and states them as though they are fact even though she knows her statements are false because...
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[/quote]

I dont know they're false. I am 100% convinced that it is true, and you are in denial. Of course denial is common so that's not surprising.

[Katy]

That sort of 'martyrdom' only makes people want to support the irrational idea of gun control when, as I mentioned, the only result of that would be to make it harder for law-abiding citizens to get guns, but would not have any effect on guns in the hands of nutters & criminals.

Well, yes, they also need organization, and a practical idea that would actually work. They have their martyrs; now they need to figure out how to use them effectively. If there is a way.

[DHodges]

Philadelphia, for example, has a higher rate for every kind of violent and property crime, some significantly.

I knew Philadelphia had a higher murder rate, but I am surprised by the other crime numbers. (I live in a Philly suburb.)

As I recall from when I lived in NYC and the erstwhile mayor was trying to bring down the crime rate(s), there were increased complaints of police brutality. (There was one particularly infamous incident involving a broomstick.)

[ChochemV2]

I1 knew Philadelphia had a higher murder rate, but I am surprised by the other crime numbers. (I live in a Philly suburb.)

I live right outside of Philly too, that's why I used it as a comparison. The first time I started looking up crime rates I was in shock to see how high Philly is compared to so many other areas. I've spent a lot of time in the city throughout my life, worked in Chester and go to school at Drexel so I'm not unused to the less pleasant areas in and around Philadelphia but I was still surprised.

But, as my boss recently said: "New York is so clean!" (he grew up in Manhattan). The different really is quite startling when you get down to it and there doesn't seem to be a widely accepted reason for New York's literally record breaking change.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I knew Philadelphia had a higher murder rate, but I am surprised by the other crime numbers.

I'd heard Philly was the worst, so I was surprised how good the numbers were. Plus it turns out to be 18th in murder rates rather than the worst.

*****cat fight******

I dont know they're false. I am 100% convinced that it is true, and you are in denial. Of course denial is common so that's not surprising.

Okay, that fits in with Dan's theory that women don't lie. BTW, I'm equally in denial about the vampires that you are 100% convinced are under your bed.

*******End my side of the cat fight. This is too easy so it's not even interesting anymore.**********
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[Katy]

BTW, I'm equally in denial about the vampires that you are 100% convinced are under your bed.

And I give a fuck about your delusions because?

*******End my side of the cat fight. This is too easy so it's not even interesting anymore.**********
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Is that why you're posting "Boo" at FP?

Get a life.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

*******End my side of the cat fight. This is too easy so it's not even interesting anymore.**********
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Is that why you're posting "Boo" at FP?

****explanation for onlookers, not cat fight***

the thread in question

You made some claims about FP, and Dan posted that he's been over there again, so I figured I'd take a look for myself. One thing I noticed was that here, you seemed to indicate that no one was talking about me over there, and it does look like no one but you is. And c'mon - this was funny:


(edited only for format and explaining user names)

you have no idea how much you scared me seeing Wannabealot at the top of the forum...

Boo
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and that is literally all I've posted there in so long I don't remember exactly when.
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[Katy]

and that is literally all I've posted there in so long I don't remember exactly when.
.

Which was precisely my point.
You stalk me (and Dan) to FP (less than 24 hours after accusing me of stalking you to GF... irony abounds) and post nothing of any substance, just a single message designed to piss me off. Which didn't work, btw, because it's so pathetic as to just be hilarious.

Get a life, and grow up.

[Jamesh]

I'd heard Philly was the worst, so I was surprised how good the numbers were. Plus it turns out to be 18th in murder rates rather than the worst.

For the hundred cities on that list, I wonder how high a percentage the black-murduring-black rates are.

[Dan Rowden]

Cat fight ends here. Further content will be edited by administration.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I'd heard Philly was the worst, so I was surprised how good the numbers were. Plus it turns out to be 18th in murder rates rather than the worst.

For the hundred cities on that list, I wonder how high a percentage the black-murduring-black rates are.

For the whole US:

From 1976 to 2004 --

* 86% of white victims were killed by whites
* 94% of black victims were killed by blacks

link
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[Kelly Jones]

One's own thoughts have a dramatic effect on how the world is created. That is the point I've been struggling to get you lot to see.

Is that what you mean when you said that it's not about guns, that the guns are symbolic?

Yes.

Guns are immaterial. As is death, murder, race, laws, and so on.

[Jamesh]

Homicide Offending Rates per 100,000 Population by Race
White Black Other
1976 4.9 46.6 4.6
1977 5.1 44.4 4.8
1978 5.3 44.6 3.8
1979 5.8 47.6 5.0
1980 6.4 51.4 7.0
1981 6.0 45.8 6.4
1982 5.6 41.2 6.4
1983 5.3 36.3 6.2
1984 5.3 33.1 5.3
1985 5.1 34.0 5.8
1986 5.3 37.9 6.0
1987 5.2 36.6 5.0
1988 4.9 41.2 4.5
1989 5.1 42.0 4.7
1990 5.6 46.6 4.2
1991 5.6 51.4 5.4
1992 5.2 47.0 5.7
1993 5.2 49.2 5.6
1994 5.1 45.4 5.1
1995 4.9 39.3 5.4
1996 4.5 35.8 4.8
1997 4.1 32.2 4.5
1998 4.2 27.8 3.9
1999 3.6 25.4 3.9
2000 3.5 25.6 3.3
2001 3.6 25.6 3.0
2002 3.6 25.0 2.9
2003 3.5 25.3 3.4
2004 3.6 24.1 2.7

There is a nice decline happening here, as blacks become more integrated with mainstream american society and wealthy. The CLinton years were good for blacks.

[Leyla Shen]

Scott wrote:

…there will be more attacks on US soil in the coming years, all because of this widespread unconscious hatred for America. And who will be there to protect us?

Of course, the most offensive implication here (underlying your god-given right to bear arms) is that the US has the right to stick their noses into the domestic affairs of other countries, yet when the international eye turns on them, they cry foul with such bone-headed paranoia as this.

Naturally, when the US decides that “democracy” is the order of the day in Iraq so much so that military intervention is justified, this comes from a well-informed and educated public who has democratically elected its government to do so; not from any encouragement of WIDESPREAD UNCONSCIOUS HATRED FOR THE MIDDLE EAST. This is not interference in the domestic affairs of one country by another. It must be another one of those god-given American rights.

We are allowed to condemn religion in the Middle East, ascribing all sorts of crimes against its citizens to it and taking the initiative to bring about order on that basis because “the US” says so, but when we shine that same light on the States’ gun crime and how the right to bear arms might affect it, for example, we’re impinging on someone’s god-given right to bear arms because they might be terrorised and, therefore, need to plan for the worst.

How does that Christian god-given, natural right work, again?

Do tell, what exactly are the causes of this widespread, unconscious hatred for America?

[Katy]

Well, yeah, America's foreign policy is fubar. And personally, I believe that others have the right to question and criticize that because it affects them. That's different than internal affairs though - especially the assumptions Kelly makes as to the psychology of individuals here. I don't think anyone can get into the national psychology of somewhere they don't live.

[Dan Rowden]

I feel inclined to question that. I doubt that any individual American without significant practical experience of their own country can sensibly assess the psyche of American people any better than those in nations literally awash with American culture, news and political influence. Australia is such a nation.

The U.S. is an extraordinarily complex nation, culturally. That's a fact that needs to be recognised. The slippery dichotomy or urban and rural has always to be taken into account, for example, in any broad cultural critique. However, there are certain cultural themes that underpin what can be roughly characterised as its national psyche. It's that national psyche that I, personally, look to critically analise in terms of things like gun laws. I think it goes without saying that the variance with which certain regions/attitudes within the U.S. speak to that abstract national mentality is also complex. To me it's up to the individual, as always, to determine how much they, and their own community, reflect that national "sense".

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Hehe - it isn't quite this bad.