American National Anti-Gun Association

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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Leyla,
Interesting advice. I guess, as an American, you don’t have to take it, eh?
No, I can take it.
I guess Kelly couldn't possibly have had a "good reason" to question America's right to bear arms.
No, there wasn't a good reason. It'd be good if America looked like Mogadishu or something, but it doesn't in the least. It's ridiculous in the scheme of things for an Australian to concern themselves with America's gun issues.
Yeah, I thought so.
I made sense and you didn't.
I don't see any comparison between Shizlam and guns in the US. Your argument makes no sense.
I didn't make a comparison. I commented on a direct connection you made:
But in case you haven't noticed, there's a war with terrorism going on right now, and the US is taking the heat. Just the other day 6 people were arrested in a plot to sneak into a military base and kill as many soldiers as they could. It's much better if people have weapons to be able to stop this kind of thing. If they don't, they stand helpless against these guys. Just wait and see...there will be more attacks on US soil in the coming years, all because of this widespread unconscious hatred for America. And who will be there to protect us? The police, who are busy writing speeding tickets? The National Guard, who is in Iraq or else can't be called up immediately?
Unless, that is, you consider the whole world to be nothing more than unconscious, hateful, anti-American terrorists that have infiltrated your country? Your comment, though insane, would at least make sense in that context.

One out of two ain't bad, I suppose...
I don't consider the whole world to be unconscious, hateful, anti-American or terrorists.

Way to try and weasel your way out of being wrong.
- Scott
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Scott:
No, I can take it.
It was a rhetorical question, posed in the hope that we could actually have an honest conversation on the matter. I’m well aware that you can take such “punches,” Scott. But, really, it’s not what I would call heroic--doesn’t take much but knuckleheadedness. Rather, I am more interested in the view you don’t have as to why you had chosen to react to Kelly in exactly the same way you try to discredit her remarks--that is, for an apparent lack of reason. So, I will continue to counterpunch until such a discussion is forthcoming.
No, there wasn't a good reason. It'd be good if America looked like Mogadishu or something, but it doesn't in the least. It's ridiculous in the scheme of things for an Australian to concern themselves with America's gun issues.
America is very much in this “scheme of things” and, therefore, so is everything else about it, from its laws to its culture. She needs no other reason, and I’m damned if I’m going to let your indignation subjugate her right to do so for very long.
I made sense and you didn't.
No, you did not. I do.
I don't consider the whole world to be unconscious, hateful, anti-American or terrorists.

Way to try and weasel your way out of being wrong.
I’m not wrong, you are--and, again, you weasel your way out of the question, opting for your regular knuckleheaded attempts to discredit your opposition. Explain why you think the rest of the world is not aware of terrorist attacks, do not have the same gun laws as you (the US, to be clear), yet you posit this condition in and of itself as a logical justification and an incontestable American right to bear arms.

(Here’s a hint: use a dictionary and take some time to actually think and reflect before you reply.)

I stand by absolutely everything I have said, your ignorance notwithstanding.
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Jamesh
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Post by Jamesh »

"Americans saving those poor defenseless Aussies" Is this the way you think of yourselves?
Yes. We couldn't have prevented Japan from invading Australia without the Yanks stepping in to the conflict. We had already sent a lot of troops to Europe [lol, at the same time that "Charles Lindbergh testifies before the U.S. Congress and recommends that the United States negotiate a neutrality pact with Adolf Hitler".]

We have a miniscule population compared to Asia. Our nearest Asian neighbour Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world.

Strategically a defence pact with the US is considered essential and for this reason our governments tend to be very subservient to the wishes of US presidents. It is probably essential as Australia would be a massive prize for any Asian country to take over - I guess it depends on whether the rest of the world would allow a country like China to invade. The pact may have made it infeasible for them to give it a try.

The US has also been amongst our biggest trading partners for a long time, only taken over in recent times by Asian countries.

Our dependancy on the US is quite strong, and naturally many of us resent this, particularly when they display signs of taking over our culture - adults would watch 10 hours of US made entertainment to every hour of other entertainment. Lately it seem they are taking over our political system due to our backwards thinking, class based leader - our governments are acting somewhat like yours - removing all traces of liberal socialism and putting "class based economic growth" above all else (meaning - making policies that ensure the bulk of profits from productivity advances go to the wealthy - just like your cretinious governments have done for a century or two).
sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Leyla,

Did you just say anything at all?
- Scott
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Kelly Jones
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Re: I shouted out, who killed the Kennedys?

Post by Kelly Jones »

DHodges wrote:Leyla: Kelly’s conclusion in her opening post:
Until there is a solid, national agreement and determination to make gun ownership highly restrictive, Americans won't be as capable of thinking and speaking truthfully.
David: Was that a conclusion? I thought it was an assertion, since she hadn't said anything to back it up.

If you only include Genius Forum members posting 500+ posts, roughly 73% of deluded posts are by Americans, 23% are by Australians. Roughly 79% of wise posts are by Australians, 26% by Americans.

How would you explain that? If fear is not a huge factor in America (symbolised by desire to own and use guns), then what?

I thought it was reasonable to equate persistence with strongly-held beliefs. But it's reasonable to conclude that roughly 80% of all posts are deluded.


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Last edited by Kelly Jones on Thu May 17, 2007 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Kelly,

I wonder where you get those statistics from.
- Scott
Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

sschaula wrote:Leyla,

Did you just say anything at all?
[rolls her eyes] There, there, Scott. Never mind. Go back to sleep and let the grown ups deal with it.

So stupid.
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Kelly Jones
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Post by Kelly Jones »

I looked at the memberlist, that lists the number of posts of all members. I looked at the profiles of those who made 500+ posts, where their total posts is given as a percentage of all posts made by everyone.

I didn't include in the "deluded posters" category any member who showed logical thinking about Ultimate Reality, even if they hadn't moved up to the scratch.


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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Leyla,

Okay.

Kelly,

So basically, you came up with that shit yourself? How can you possibly judge anyone wise or unwise, when you are unwise?
- Scott
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Katy:
I am not talking about popculture. I'm specifically talking about what do teachers say to 5 year olds. Out loud. Probably never really reproduced consciously because they're repeating what they were told at that age.
It's interesting but I do see American politics, the kind that Scott represents and the kind that we are swamped with here, precisely as popculture. I don't watch much commercial television, myself, aside from the occasional popculture news on channels 7, 9 and 10 because it is popculture, by definition. I read, I participate; and I watch ABC and SBS news, if anything.

But I have a question for you, if these things are learned unconsciously, what excludes them from the category of popculture?
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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Here's a question: if what I represent wasn't learned unconsciously, should it still be considered popculture?
- Scott
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Kelly Jones
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Post by Kelly Jones »

sschaula wrote:So basically, you came up with that shit yourself? How can you possibly judge anyone wise or unwise, when you are unwise?
I think you'd prefer everyone to be exactly as you are, Scott.

I politely request you refrain from using swear-words in future. That kind of vulgar and menacing mind-state does not help in thinking clearly.

Of course, I can't put a gun to your head to enforce such a request. But I can request you "go to gaol" for a while.


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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

No, some diversity is fine. But you should be called out on when you're saying something wrong.

I'll refrain from swearing, even though the use of a word definitely doesn't indicate any mind-state.

But if it helps you to think more clearly, I'm all for it.

Maybe that was the problem all along...my swearing must have been the cause for all of the stupid things that the "wise ones" here say. I'm glad it's cleared up now, so that the "wise ones" can finally think.
- Scott
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Kelly Jones
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Post by Kelly Jones »

Scott,

Why do you believe that it is impossible to live according to wisdom, meaning, understanding Ultimate Reality ?


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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

I don't believe that.

It is possible to understand Ultimate Reality and live according to wisdom, and I'm pretty sure all of us here do it to some degree. Some more than others.

But I also believe that none of us are perfect in it, or capable of perfecting that wisdom. Therefore, we shouldn't be called "wise" or "enlightened". And we certainly shouldn't act like we are (to do so is to become even more unconscious).

That's all.

Now getting back to what I'm talking about here - your statistics were ridiculous. Pure conjecture. If I said something similar, hopefully someone would call me out on it, too. People shouldn't go around talking themselves up and others down like that...especially when it's not true!
- Scott
Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

sschaula wrote:Here's a question: if what I represent wasn't learned unconsciously, should it still be considered popculture?
I'm after something from Dan at the moment. I'll get back to you later!
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Kelly Jones
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Post by Kelly Jones »

sschaula wrote:I also believe that none of us are perfect in it, or capable of perfecting that wisdom. Therefore, we shouldn't be called "wise" or "enlightened".
On what basis do you reason that this is absolutely true?

How do you logically know no one in history has ever been, and no one in future will ever be, perfectly enlightened?


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Kelly Jones
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Post by Kelly Jones »

In other words, why is perfection not a scientific uncertainty to you?

If it were, you'd say, "I am not sure whether it will occur or has occurred, so let's just see what happens...."

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ChochemV2
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Post by ChochemV2 »

How do you logically know no one in history has ever been, and no one in future will ever be, perfectly enlightened?
If you could logically describe Ultimate Reality, perfect enlightenment, and perfect wisdom? That would go a long way towards providing criteria which could be applied to people to determine how enlightened and wise they are. Without such criteria there is no way to logically asses someone's level of enlightenment and therefore no reason to simply assume anyone is enlightened.

Either way, you're not going to prove to the American public they shouldn't have guns because they aren't enlightened enough. This topic was dead from the start, though, because the anti-gun posts have heavily relied on assertions and not facts. If you can't prove your point other than to say "Well, if you're wise then you'll agree with me" then why bother continued posting?
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DHodges
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78.3% of statistics are made up

Post by DHodges »

Kelly Jones wrote:If you only include Genius Forum members posting 500+ posts, roughly 73% of deluded posts are by Americans, 23% are by Australians. Roughly 79% of wise posts are by Australians, 26% by Americans.
Hilarious!
I have to assume that the other 4% of deluded posts (and 0% wise posts) are from Canadians. (Probably Newfies.)

Also, I don't remember any wise posts coming out of Nigeria - which is odd, since the Nigerians seem like such an incredibly generous bunch. They are always emailing me, trying to give me millions of dollars!
How would you explain that?
85% - 95% of Americans are hopelessly retarded, so that doesn't really require any explanation. So why are there so many "wise" Australians here? Maybe it has something to do with the three board founders all being Australian? I would think that they made a good chunk of your "wise" posts.
If fear is not a huge factor in America (symbolised by desire to own and use guns), then what?
I give up, what?
But it's reasonable to conclude that roughly 80% of all posts are deluded.
This post is only 47% deluded (the part about Canada, and the statistical claims), so on the whole, it's a plus.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: 78.3% of statistics are made up

Post by Kelly Jones »

DHodges wrote:K: If you only include Genius Forum members posting 500+ posts, roughly 73% of deluded posts are by Americans, 23% are by Australians. Roughly 79% of wise posts are by Australians, 26% by Americans.

D: Hilarious!
I have to assume that the other 4% of deluded posts (and 0% wise posts) are from Canadians. (Probably Newfies.)
Why?

The people who all made 500+ posts each were included.


Also, I don't remember any wise posts coming out of Nigeria - which is odd, since the Nigerians seem like such an incredibly generous bunch. They are always emailing me, trying to give me millions of dollars!
What's that got to do with anything?



K: How would you explain that?

D: 85% - 95% of Americans are hopelessly retarded, so that doesn't really require any explanation.
So you don't agree that it is fear of the Absolute?


So why are there so many "wise" Australians here? Maybe it has something to do with the three board founders all being Australian? I would think that they made a good chunk of your "wise" posts.
I'm not equating Australia with wisdom, and America with evil, David. I'm just saying there are factors in each countrys' culture, that have a strong effect on the development of the citizens.


K: If fear is not a huge factor in America (symbolised by desire to own and use guns), then what?

D: I give up, what?
Playing insane riffs is seriously interesting, isn't it?

But, well, who cares, it's all a game. Nothing's worth striving for these days. Let's go take the fluffy dog for a walk, have some fun, eh? Maybe we'll find some exciting surprises?!

Yeh, let's do that!


K: But it's reasonable to conclude that roughly 80% of all posts are deluded.

D: This post is only 47% deluded (the part about Canada, and the statistical claims), so on the whole, it's a plus.
Woof!

Woof!! Woof!! Woof!!

Having fun now?


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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: 78.3% of statistics are made up

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

DHodges wrote:
Kelly Jones wrote:If you only include Genius Forum members posting 500+ posts, roughly 73% of deluded posts are by Americans, 23% are by Australians. Roughly 79% of wise posts are by Australians, 26% by Americans.
Hilarious!
I have to assume that the other 4% of deluded posts (and 0% wise posts) are from Canadians. (Probably Newfies.)
Hodges! I'm ashamed of you - I expect better from a statistician! You only covered half of this - if 79% of wise posts are by Australians, and 26% by Americans, that's 105% of wise posts. Do we have people here with dual citizenship?

But I do give you credit for going through Kelly's posts.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: 78.3% of statistics are made up

Post by Kelly Jones »

Thanks, Elizabeth. I forgot to add a US person to my total of wise posts, so the correct split of wise posts should be 25% US, 75% Australian.

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ChochemV2
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Post by ChochemV2 »

If the only criteria for being wise is eating Vegemite that is far too high a price to pay for wisdom.
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DHodges
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Re: 78.3% of statistics are made up

Post by DHodges »

Kelly Jones wrote:
DHodges wrote:D: Hilarious!
I have to assume that the other 4% of deluded posts (and 0% wise posts) are from Canadians. (Probably Newfies.)
Why?

The people who all made 500+ posts each were included.
Why is it hilarious, or why do I assume the rest are Canadians?

It's hilarious because it was so incredibly spurious. That you can count something doesn't mean it has any meaningful relationship to the subject at hand.

I bring Canadians into it, of course, only to make fun of the whole thing. I'm making fun of it, not because it is a light topic, but because your arguments have been comically light. I don't actually have anything against Canadians.


Your argument so far has run something like:
Guns are icky.
Guns are dangerous.
I don't like guns.
Therefore, guns should be banned.
Also, Americans are not wise.

You seem to feel that what you are saying is so obviously correct that you don't have to back it up with any sort of real data or logical argument. So your arguments have been unconvincing, and you don't seem to realize it.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Hodges! I'm ashamed of you - I expect better from a statistician! You only covered half of this - if 79% of wise posts are by Australians, and 26% by Americans, that's 105% of wise posts. Do we have people here with dual citizenship?
You are right. I hang my head in shame. Obviously, -5% of wise posts are made by Newfies. Man are they unwise.

So you don't agree that it is fear of the Absolute?

By "it", I take it you mean the apparent disparity of wise postings between Americans and Australians.

I don't think you can conclude anything about national characteristics based such a small and obviously biased sample. There is nothing that needs explaining, just like there is no need to explain the lack of posts from Nigerians.

The connection to guns is even more tenuous. Are you saying my posts would be less wise if I owned a gun? Would they become even less wise if it was a handgun instead of a rifle? What about bows and arrows? Would they make me just slightly more foolish?

What about martial arts in general? Would it be foolish to study a martial art, since you might hurt somebody? Does it matter if the martial art involves the potential use of deadly force, or teaches how to disarm someone with a gun?
I'm not equating Australia with wisdom, and America with evil, David. I'm just saying there are factors in each countrys' culture, that have a strong effect on the development of the citizens.
No doubt.

Maybe we should focus more on the Australian side of this equation. Why is it that Australians are so terrified of guns that you need a permit to buy a paintball gun?

Is it that Australians are not wise enough to responsibly handle guns? Is it possible that Americans actually view each other with more respect - that we expect each other of being capable of acting like adults?

Could it be that the current attitude in Australia is due to an irrational over-reaction to the Port Arthur massacre, or some similar event?
K: If fear is not a huge factor in America (symbolised by desire to own and use guns), then what?

D: I give up, what?
Playing insane riffs is seriously interesting, isn't it?
Is there any evidence that fear is a bigger factor in America than it is elsewhere? All there really seems to be is your assumption - your assertion - that there must be.

In my view, gun ownership is a political issue - but it seems that this view is not shared in other countries. In the US, it is the recognised right and responsibility of the citizens to overthrow the government when it gets too coercive. The "consent of the governed" means nothing without it - if the government holds all the guns, then true consent is impossible. That is why gun ownership is considered a basic right, like freedom of speech. It's what makes us free men rather than serfs. It's the basis for the very possibility of a legitimate "social contract".
Let's go take the fluffy dog for a walk, have some fun, eh?
Come on, let's leave Scooter out of this. He has no opinion about guns, as far as I know, and he's probably about as wise as a Bichon-Pomeranian is going to get.

Scooter and I go out for a walk every night - completely unarmed! It's pretty daring - you know, what with all the bullets flying around willy-nilly, we can barely see where we're going.
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