Point of no return?

[MindExpansion]

What is reality?...Reality is a state of mind, that is brought on by consciousness....

Hypothetically writting, let us assume we know someone who is a schizophrenic. Now, that person is considered mentally ill, because they have delusions based on false experiences; Their realities are said to be wrong...They notice or pay attention to details that a normal people would ignore ~Why?

Would you consider their reality false? Why?

Mental health practitioners don't understand the causes of mental illness. They assume the persons brain is chemically imbalanced...Well what happens when we get sad? Why do we snap out of it and others don't? genes, upbringing, is there something missing/ or is there too much of it...In terms of coping mechanisims and just Brain plasticity in general (our ability to adapt).

I've had experiences of those type with someone very close to me and its scary...Do some of you know what I'm taking about?

Well Mr. President, I did not say much to answer your question, but I hope you found this somewhat stimulating.

[MindExpansion]

The above was a reply to a post anti-christ wrote...

Feel free to list your ideas and explanations...I know scholars write books and indepth material based on this...But please write something to pass on some of that knowledge.

I'll answer anyone's questions wether relevant or not, thanks!

[Carl G]

I'll answer anyone's questions wether relevant or not, thanks!

I have a question. Would you be willing to return to your first thread, called, "Unrealistic/Irrational/Contraversial/Egotistic...expectation" and make two modifications to your first post, in order to allow me to read the title page of the Worldly Matters Forum, when I visit, without having to scroll back and forth?

You see, by your very long title with no space breaks, the computer has stretched the title space of the forum main page, because it couldn't find a natural break by which to drop your title to two lines. By way of illustration, I will list the three steps you could take to correct this. It would make my viewing life easier. I would really appreciate it.

1. Press "Edit" on your first post in that thread. Go into the title bar above the main text of your post.

2. Put a space between "Contraversial" and "/Egotistic". This will allow it, when you re-enter the post, to make two lines, thusly:

Unrealistic/Irrational/Controversial [space here]
/Egotistic...expectation

3. Finally, fix one mispelling. Simply change the "a" in Contra, to an "o" so it reads Contro.

This one is optional, so if you don't feel like doing it, no problem. I usually don't mind typos in the body of a post, but I sort of like to see none in the thread title.

Thanks! Again, I would really appreciate it.

[MindExpansion]

Sure I can do that.

Carl G you wrote: "fix one(nice) mispelling"

I believe you made a mistake: isn't the sorrect spelling: misspelling

Hey, you wrote it quicking...it's perfectly understandable:)

[ExpectantlyIronic]

MindExpansion,

What is reality?...Reality is a state of mind, that is brought on by consciousness....

Reality is the bullet that kills you regardless of what you think its ontological status to be. Oddly, I've never known an anti-realist to actually test this hypothesis. I guess even brains in vats must allow for the possibility that they might not be in a vat at all.

[Matt Gregory]

That's like testing the reality of a television program by shooting the television. It just doesn't apply.

[MindExpansion]

So reality is just what 'is' and if one does not percieve it in that specific way then they are wrong?

Brain in a vat -great example:) When people imagine/see pictures while they think, does their reality change? Aren't there different realities for an event?

[Katy]

I don't think you can say anyone's reality is false. They are living in that reality and reacting to those things and so they make up their reality and thus it is true. The fact is we all suffer from some delusions or others. The question of mental illness is not the question of having delusions, or how real those delusions are. It's a question of how much it affects your life to hold those delusions.

If your delusions have you thinking vampires exist you're probably not mentally ill. My belief that there is a vampire under my bed waiting to kill me may or may not be mentally ill depending on how I react to it and how it affects me. Whether I would have been diagnosed with schizophrenia for just this is rather questionable (I have a nightlight and a chain of furniature I can step on to avoid touching the floor in my room after dark but I usually do actually make it to the bed and out - there's only been a few exceptions). Being unable to hold a job because my bosses keep reading my mind means it has significantly affected my life...

Mental health practitioners don't understand the causes of mental illness. They assume the persons brain is chemically imbalanced...Well what happens when we get sad? Why do we snap out of it and others don't? genes, upbringing, is there something missing/ or is there too much of it...In terms of coping mechanisims and just Brain plasticity in general (our ability to adapt).

But then you make a mistake that I see way too many people make; you confuse 'sad' for 'depressed' and even 'depression' for 'clinical depression' Everyone gets 'sad' - and brain chemistry is involved, but 'sad' is not imbalanced by itself. And yes genes and upbringing along with many other things.

the second half of your paragraph is unintelligable. you'll have to define "it" in "is there too much of it" and probably reword the entire thing.

I've had experiences of those type with someone very close to me and its scary...Do some of you know what I'm taking about?

Yes, I'm willing to bet that the majority of us have known someone with a mental illness, or depression issues.

[Carl G]

I have a question. Would you be willing to return to your first thread, called, "Unrealistic/Irrational/Contraversial/Egotistic...expectation" and make two modifications to your first post, in order to allow me to read the title page of the Worldly Matters Forum, when I visit, without having to scroll back and forth?

Sure I can do that.

When?

[MindExpansion]

How can someone so smart and insightful(i've read some off your posts:)) believe a vampire resides under their bed...Do you hear voices? What do they sound like; inside or outside of your head?
Do they come and go? Why is that?

Btw, my father has schizophrenia (the link in genes is especially scary) I just don't get it!

My father owns his own business and two other buildings, is an overall intelligent, friendly person....But, he has paranoid delusions and collects his piss (and drinks and baths in it...I swear on my life this is true). He says it's the water of life...Today after school I went over to his office. He had a large jar filled with piss infront of his computer monitor. He said something about the setup protecting him, from the something, negative energy thats been attacking him from within the computer...He also gets ver annoyed sometimes.

I've been drinking, that part of the reason why I wrote this...

cheers!

[Carl G]

Right. I feel like I've entered a mental institution lately, at Genius.

[ExpectantlyIronic]

Katy,

I don't think you can say anyone's reality is false.

I tend to disagree. I think you can say that someones take on what is real is indeed mistaken, and furthermore that you ought to do so if you happen to think as much (without ignoring basic etiquette of course). If I see pink elephants, and feel justified in suggesting that they do actually exist--they play the same role in the states of affairs they're involved in that one might expect of pink elephants--then I can very well say that they are there. Furthermore, if someone tells me that pink elephants aren't where I see them to be, I can say that their take on such things is quite false. Nevertheless, the very act of someone insisting not to see pink elephants where I see them should cause me to question, as a reasonable person, the existence of said elephants. On the flip-side, if someone tells me they see pink elephants where I see nothing, I'm going to think they're nuts, and wouldn't grant that what they say is true until convinced otherwise.

We judge what is real from our own perspectives by necessity, but this doesn't make reality merely a matter of perspective. I've often had experiences that didn't coincide with my expectations and have even heard the dreaded words "I told you so," on a number of occasions. In such cases reality imposed itself upon me, and I had no choice but to admit that it was not under my dominion.

[Katy]

Ironic

I think we're working at reality from two different angles. You're discussing whether something is actually there and I'm talking about how people are affected by what they see/hear/believe etc. If we have two drastically different interpretations of things, we're both going to think the other is crazy (either I'm crazy for running away from the pink elephant or you're crazy for not doing so).

Either way, whether we see that pink elephant changes our behavior, and thus affects reality in some way (say I stub my toe or find a quarter). If it can affect reality, it must be a part of reality. Regardless of whether the pink elephant is physically there according to God (or whatever) the elephant is a part of reality because it has affected reality. Thus the reality itself is not false whether the perception is (and we can't really be certain of that either way, but I don't want to get into brain jars...)

MindE

Scientists themselves aren't certain of the whys behind schizophrenia. I've seen research into dopamine based on a class of antipsychs that affect dopamine levels, but I've also seen serotonin suggested. Brain injury seems to be the core problem with me.

There are some fairly dramatic MRI images showing structural differences in the brain of identical twins when only one of them has schizophrenia. This last sentence is good news for you though - it shows that genetics are not 100% responsible so even if you "got" the genes from your father, you may remain well.

Yes, I hear voices. They sound like... well... voices. No, inside and outside voices don't sound different from one another and can't always be identified as one or the other.

I also see things. These can be anything from detailed things that look like real objects to flying bits of "stuff" and random movement, to a misinterpretation of a physical object (for some reason I frequently think my neighbor's mailbox - just a normal brick mailbox - is a serial killer or homeless man on the curb)

Yes, they come and go... or at least are more or less frequent/strong/(not sure word exists here) at different times. No, I don't know why. Stress affects them to a large degree, as does fear, and a variety of other things including my monthly cycle. But none of these are required.


Carl
I have found that the subject comes up a lot, and moreso here than it does at other boards I've frequented. I've been under the impression that it is for one of two reasons:

1. By the time someone comes to have any interest in the types of things described here they're pretty different from what the world expects and this can be an effect of a mental disorder or someone's family etc can perceive a problem and have one diagnosed (or like David and Dan can go get diagnosed with something in order to get disability payments...) So there is probably a higher percentage of us here with some experience with the topic.

2. Philosophy and psychology are fairly intertwined, especially when you start looking at eastern stuff. Thus, psychological topics show up more frequently... and people are curious. It's apparently a fairly interesting topic to most people (evidence: every school I've gone to abnormal psych classes have been the toughest to get in to) So add people who are generally interested in delusion to the fact that dramatic delusions are interesting to people in general probably contributes.


To be honest, I'm not entirely certain why it keeps coming up. Most places, it is not something I talk about much. Only one person at my school knows I have it, and that because I told him to try to get him to go get disability payments for himself. At other boards it doesn't come up often, and online with friends it mostly only comes up when there's a specific problem at that moment (either medically or because medicaid is driving me insane at the moment...)

[Carl G]

I brought it up because I notice that frequently, and especially lately, we get a flurry of new posters who write as though they have serious mental disorders. I think this place attracts them.

That is beside my earlier point that it seems most of the posters here (and at some other messageboards), for whatever reason, are on medication, disability, or both. This was just an observation.

[ExpectantlyIronic]

Katy,

If it can affect reality, it must be a part of reality.

What isn't necessarily a part of reality? The actualization of an imagined scenario. It is necessarily a part of reality that I am currently typing on my keyboard (for me at the moment), but it isn't necessarily part of reality that I will be drinking Coke in the future. So we should say that there is a difference between imaginary Coke drinking and real Coke drinking.

Now imagine that well I'm engaged in what I think to be real Coke drinking, someone tells me that I am not drinking Coke. So I go to show them the Coke, and I find out that I wasn't drinking Coke at all. How could this be? Perhaps I woke up groggy from a dream of drinking Coke, and it was real enough to make me think I had a Coke nearby. In any case, I would say that I was not engaged in real Coke drinking at all, because the experience didn't act in enough ways like a real Coke drinking experience to qualify.

It seems fair to say that real Coke drinking effects reality, and thus real Coke drinking is part of reality. It is also fair to say that imagined Coke drinking effects reality, and thus imagined Coke drinking is part of reality. It doesn't seem fair to suggest that imagined Coke drinking effects reality, and thus real Coke drinking is part of reality.

Thus the reality itself is not false whether the perception is (and we can't really be certain of that either way, but I don't want to get into brain jars...)

It's not a matter of the perception being false (how can a perception be false?). It's the interpretation that is false. If someone sees what looks like a pink elephant and proclaims it to be a pink elephant, then they can very well be misinterpreting reality. You need to remember that a thing is more then just itself (meaning that a thing is more then just the raw feels that compose it). An elephant consists not only of such sensations, but also of the role it plays in states of affairs. If I saw an elephant walking down the street, I would expect cars to swerve around it. If cars made no attempt to swerve around it, and nevertheless failed somehow to crash into it, then I should suspect that I am not really seeing an elephant at all. People who have hallucinations tend to be able to realize later that they were not seeing what they thought they were seeing, or experiencing what they thought they were experiencing. This doesn't mean that such hallucinations don't seem to be completely real when they happen, but--like dreams--can be seen for what they are by a later accumulation of evidence.

[Ignorant Carl G Arse]

Right. I feel like I've entered a mental institution lately, at Genius.

You Ignorant fool. Do you have family there? Have you ever been to one?

A couple of hours later Carl G:

[/quote]I brought it up because

Who cares, we know, whatever...

I notice that frequently, and especially lately, we get a flurry of new

You do have a gift for noticing the obvious...

posters who write as though they have serious mental disorders. I think this place attracts them.

What kind of disorders. Can you post some examples?

Why would this place of all places attact them?

That is beside my earlier point that it seems most of the posters here (and at some other messageboards), for whatever reason, are on medication, disability, or both.

beside your earlier point...You don't say? Oh, the insult, the speaming pile of dog waste...Its only part of nature and keeps everything balanced, right?

Are you the town idiot?

This was just an observation.

O REALLY, you don't know for a fact..O obviously -were the **** was I?

Great Carl G, thanks for the insight, bye-bye now.

[Ignorant Carl G Arse]

for anyone cofused. The quote boxes are my words...Was a bit of a fuck up, sorry

[Ignorant Carl G Arse]

My keyboard has dried up cum on it, so it makes it a tad hard to write...

[Dan Rowden]

Seriously, if this is indicative of the way you intend to engage the board, you won't be here long. It's up to you.

[Carl G]

I see the inmates have taken over the asylum.

Good time for me to take a vacation for a while.

[Katy]

Expectant -
viewtopic.php?p=43820#43820

[Katy]

ME - hearing voices in your head makes sense and is perfectly normal if you are aware that they are in your head. When you hear them as external voices is when it is a problem.

[MindExpansion]

I understand what you mean, but I would appreciate the answer more, if you could be more elaborate, thanks.

[Katy]

I understand what you mean, but I would appreciate the answer more, if you could be more elaborate, thanks.

This conversation is going everywhere. Do you wish to continue here or in PM? I feel like I'd be repeating myself myself.

[Nordicvs]

What is reality?...Reality is a state of mind, that is brought on by consciousness....

Hypothetically writting, let us assume we know someone who is a schizophrenic. Now, that person is considered mentally ill, because they have delusions based on false experiences; Their realities are said to be wrong...They notice or pay attention to details that a normal people would ignore ~Why?

Brought on, yes, but consciousness is the total flash of reality we get---like a photograph taken of the right by the left, hemisphere of the brain, then studied, very quickly of course. It then looks for function. Thousands of times a minute it does this.

I've known a few schizoids, and grew up with one; hemispherically, it is one half of the brain unable to logically and rationally make sense of the other---the perceptions are coming in, universally, but, like dreaming, where's the clockwork of rationale to compromise an ordered reality? They become compulsive, fixated on little icons, repetetitive, religious. It's a muck, in shock, like a compass that won't point north, from some psychological or experiential cause.

What is left (literally---logic and reason) is reflecting the chaotic (dream-like) stimulus of the right hemisphere as well as focusing perception on small, symbolic details.

What's the will doing? Is the will mad? Or is this loon a sage who's seeing clearly but its translator is stuttering?

Would you consider their reality false? Why?

Not at all. Distorted, reflected, and ill-interpretted, though. Hallucinations are what? Dreams are what?

(Everything we know, all data and knowledge and sense, feeling, since we were born; images (3D symbols) recalled on the right, linear symbols (structured words) on the left; all soaked up through the mental sensory apparatus of the right---mute---hemisphere of the brain. It's all stored in dual blobs of cells, split recollections. Schizophrenics and manics are alike in this way: they both get weirdly religious. One guy I knew had a son like that, stared at swasticas all day...)

Mental health practitioners don't understand the causes of mental illness. They assume the persons brain is chemically imbalanced...Well what happens when we get sad? Why do we snap out of it and others don't? genes, upbringing, is there something missing/ or is there too much of it...In terms of coping mechanisims and just Brain plasticity in general (our ability to adapt).

I've had experiences of those type with someone very close to me and its scary...Do some of you know what I'm taking about?

Well Mr. President, I did not say much to answer your question, but I hope you found this somewhat stimulating.

I dunno, I'd like to hear what a dyslexic schizophrenic has to say about biogenic shielding for four-person-home-built space ship...