The Hezbollah and Israel

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millipodium

Post by millipodium »

cosmic_prostitute wrote:Milli wrote:
So if someone wants to kill you because of some warped belief system, even though you have not harmed him, and do not intend to harm him, you would allow yourself to be killed, because you're above at all? Like I said, your worldview has reduced you to a docile imbecile.
Suppose someone breaks into my home and attacks me in my sleep then obviously I'm going to defend myself, this is almost an automatic reaction.

However if my nation is going to war i would flee into the woods because I dont identify with the symbol of "nation" and I dont think it is an intelligent thing to participate in.
Yet you ARE part of your nation, and are just letting others die for your direct protection, whether you want to acknowledge that fact or not.

I'm not attached to any particular nation or territory so I will flee to wherever there is peace, I have no ties to any point in space.
Yes you do. You benefit from the freedom others have died for. You're just ungrateful.
This is why organized war is complete insanity, usually fought at the hands of men who are terribly territorial, with strong emotional beliefs who are attached to woman, family and attached to the image of nation-state.
You live in a devolved state of denial. You have the wisdom of a precultural cave painting slopey headed throwback.

They actually believe there is a separate thing called nation-state, but this is only an idea and a feeble one at that.
They are real. They enforce a set of cultural norms over a fixed area of territory.

ideas are not the real. I will not die over an idea or at the hands of an irrational antagonist.
So would you be happy being in a culture of religious and political oppression, or living in a gulag where you were forced to slave away because you were born into the wrong ethnic group? You're a truly distasteful ingrate of the lowest order.

I will flee and that is the most intelligent thing to do.
It's cowardly and exhibits incredibly short term thinking.

If your being is order, you cannot be a part of disorder because if you become a part of disorder then you are that disorder, you are not separate from it.
Please don't post this nonsense to me, I don't buy it, pseudo-man.
MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

Tharan wrote:
BTW, Marsha, you accredited me (Full Metal Tharan) with Kevin's writings in one of your postings.
Yes, I realize that and I apologize. It was an honest mistake. I do see that neither you nor Kevin have acknowledged that the Israelis were the first in this particular conflict to start the attacks.
Oh, and did you all notice the news yesterday? Another Israeli mother and her baby were killed from a Hizbollah Katuysha. But, not so suprisingly, there was no extensive, pornographic write-up of the nasty incident for you sympathizers to enjoy. No accounts of the mother's leg landing some 10 meters away, still smoldering. No accounts of the little girl dragging what remains of her torso a meter or two before collapsing. Only a quick mention on National Public Radio. Let me know, ladies and Dan, if you would like me to write something more for you.
Yes, I did hear of that incident. Horrible. As it turns out, the mother and baby were Israeli Arabs. Many of those killed by Hezbollah in northern Israel have been Israeli Arabs.

I wonder about the nature of your sarcasm -- the pornographic write-ups and this and that. I heard of the deaths of the mother and child on CNN, not NPR.

Since this incident was fairly isolated in comparison to the mass slaughters in Lebanon, it was not as dramatic in comparison. Not like having to dig for days under rubble to either rescue the maimed or to recover the dead.

Tharan, I am not a sympathizer to Hezbollah but neither am I as trusting and as convinced of Israeli purity as yourself.

I still do not get that and I still think it is an archetypal thing. As much tribalism as the most tribal chieftans living in the frontier areas of Pakistan.

Faizi
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Post by Tharan »

Why do you two keep saying I have Israeli sympathies? I have stated on more than one occasion in this thread that I have no particular love for the Israelis. What I have also stated is that I have absolutely no sympathy for Hizbollah and I am beginning to question even the idea of "innocents" in that region.

It would not bother me one bit if all the Jews suddenly decided tomorrow that they were packing their bags and all moving to Europe or America or Antarctica. But they won't do that because of their emotional attachment to Jerusalem. It is a region of religious lunacy that is going to spill into my world very soon. I understand that and see it coming.

And it is a little annoying to deal with people who I respect not seeing the situation for what it is. The "carriers of the Plague" in this situation are not the Israelis. And I am going to have to deal with it by more than just by writing about it, most likely sooner than I would like. Only that.
MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

Tharan,

Your cowardice and hypocrisy are really astounding.

Faizi
MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

Tharan wrote:
"carriers of the Plague"
Kind of sounds like something Ossama or Hitler or Pol Pot or whatever other ethnic cleansing son of a bitch might say.

You are not aware of it and I doubt that you will be aware of it but what you are saying essentially is "he is a beast of a man; ugly; boorish" -- I am paraphrasing from Christian belief about Ishmael. This belief is so ingrained in the Christian psyche; so entrenched that it is pretty well second nature. Knee jerk.

It is purely racist. Purely tribal.

Faizi
MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

Tharan,
And it is a little annoying to deal with people who I respect not seeing the situation for what it is.
I could not care less that what I or others here say is annoying to you. You need to be annoyed.

Faizi
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Post by Tharan »

Damn Marsha. I am not a Christian. It is as repulsive as me being a Jew or Muslim.

Fuck you too.
MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

Just hit me.

I took Roxanna to speak with a Navy recruiter today -- talked her down from the Marines. Dude was concerned about her name -- Rukhsana Jaweriah Binet Faizi. That prompted questions about her citizenship. Being half-Pak in the current time did not go over so good.

Then, he asked her about the nature of her last job.

Demolition.

That did get him concerned. His blue eyes went goo-goo for a minute.

Second generation Paki-American who likes to destroy things.

Could be a problem:}

Faizi
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Post by Tharan »

Just hit me.
I'm not stupid. It is not a battle I would win. My victory is your understanding, not your submission.
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Post by Dan Rowden »

Tharan wrote:
And it is a little annoying to deal with people who I respect not seeing the situation for what it is. The "carriers of the Plague" in this situation are not the Israelis. And I am going to have to deal with it by more than just by writing about it, most likely sooner than I would like.
Oh, I know exactly what the situation is: it is part of a slow strategic push for the US to take control of the middle east. Aspects of what is happening in Iraq also indicate this. But what is it that you are specifically worried about? Escalation into Iran precipitating the introduction of conscription? If so I think that concern has reasonable foundation.


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Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Dan, I do wonder if it's relevant to explore who exactly the 'US' is these days. A lot of Americans (the ones that still care) complain about their country being hijacked. Perhaps it's not different from 1939 where all the fascists in the world networked together and 'bought' Germany into re-arranging the maps and spheres of influence.

We can see neoconservative elements in the US government work very well together with similar elements in not only Israel but also Italy, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, former communist states and a host of others. Often these elements are concentrated in some intelligence agency or a totalitarian regime. A similar network brought about WW2's "axis of evil".

By the way, I just made a postabout the importance of water in the Israeli puzzle, but I made it in the oil thread and it's probably more on topic in this thread. Just seemed worthy of mentioning. The struggle for resources and wealth seems to be the main drive behind all rhetoric and pseudo-religion. Nothing shocking, I know.
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Post by Tharan »

Dan wrote,
Oh, I know exactly what the situation is: it is part of a slow strategic push for the US to take control of the middle east. Aspects of what is happening in Iraq also indicate this. But what is it that you are specifically worried about? Escalation into Iran precipitating the introduction of conscription? If so I think that concern has reasonable foundation.
Diebert is correct. This is really two countries. There are those that believe the propaganda of the administration (a few are coming to their senses) and there are those that knew this was nothing but a bunch of inexperienced rich boys (Watergate experience, but not real world experience) with "big ideas." This country would go into civil war before it ever allowed these clowns to get away with a draft for their egotistical wars.

What I know IS coming home is continual eroding of my freedoms and quite possibly a series of attacks over the next few years. Seattle is a port city with an internation airport, easy access to Vancouver and Canada, and large number of tourists coming to see the symbolic attractions; a perfect secondary target for Al Queda or Al Queda-lites.

To continually be in a defensive posture is not sustainable. Sheer inertia will eventually break the back of the neocons and their policies. Americans like people who talk big, at first. Eventually you have to show what you have. And this administration has done just that. On the other hand, it will only take one more big attack for the large number sheep in this country to swing back to their "protectors." There is danger all around.

*edit*
I don't know if you guys got this on the news where you are, but just last week we had a angry, loner Muslim shoot up a Jewish center, killing one and wounding several. It is only a matter of time before the thousands like him get organized. Unfortunately, their target should be the government rather than the Jews.
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Yes, Dan. You are correct.

Tharan wrote:
And it is a little annoying to deal with people who I respect not seeing the situation for what it is. The "carriers of the Plague" in this situation are not the Israelis.
Which plague is that, exactly -- the one you refuse to fight against when it comes to the draft?
There are those that believe the propaganda of the administration (a few are coming to their senses) and there are those that knew this was nothing but a bunch of inexperienced rich boys (Watergate experience, but not real world experience) with "big ideas." This country would go into civil war before it ever allowed these clowns to get away with a draft for their egotistical wars.
.
millipodium

Post by millipodium »

Tharan wrote: *edit*
I don't know if you guys got this on the news where you are, but just last week we had a angry, loner Muslim shoot up a Jewish center, killing one and wounding several. It is only a matter of time before the thousands like him get organized. Unfortunately, their target should be the government rather than the Jews.
Maybe if our government would simply stop making policy based on jewish ethnic narcissism, a full revolution could be avoided.
MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

Full Wrote:
I don't know if you guys got this on the news where you are, but just last week we had a angry, loner Muslim shoot up a Jewish center, killing one and wounding several. It is only a matter of time before the thousands like him get organized. Unfortunately, their target should be the government rather than the Jews.
Duh..yup..we even hear'ed 'bout it down here in Buch-Buch ville.

Loner Muslim. AN ANGRY LONER MUSLIM, EVEN.

See, ya'll -- you got your Muslims and you got your loner Muslims. Then, you got your ANGRY LONER MUSLIMS -- 'then you to the degrees within each category. Kind of gets to be algebraic-like -- ALM + ALM (LM+A = ML+LM1} = LM2; ALM3.

Dude was a second generation Paki.

Faizi
MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

Full Metal Tharan wrote:
a perfect secondary target for Al Queda or Al Queda-lites.
OK for a second generation Paki jackass -- SGPJ.

I would be very surprised if Seattle gets hit.

Faizi
Last edited by MKFaizi on Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

Tharan wrote:
Damn Marsha. I am not a Christian. It is as repulsive as me being a Jew or Muslim.
"sho' nuff sound like a Christian. But I forgot you think you Buddhist.

You think you Buddhist but you talk just like a Christian.

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Post by Dan Rowden »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Dan, I do wonder if it's relevant to explore who exactly the 'US' is these days. A lot of Americans (the ones that still care) complain about their country being hijacked.


That's true of Israeli society as well, but I'll say something about that further down..
Perhaps it's not different from 1939 where all the fascists in the world networked together and 'bought' Germany into re-arranging the maps and spheres of influence.
I don't think it's unreasonable to make that comparison. Over the last 10 years there has certainly been a trend towards conservatism in western democracies, the US neo-cons arguably being the worst expression of it. In a sense there's nothing all that new in it; the world has always tended to be organised by networks of rich arseholes. But we are certainly seeing a trend of the undermining of the basic freedoms that are supposed to be the core thing that distinguishes us from theocratic and totalitarian states of various hues. I don't have much time for so-called "illuminati" conspiracy theories, but I do think there's a thread of truth running through the great gobs of exaggerated bullshit those people tend to speak.
We can see neoconservative elements in the US government work very well together with similar elements in not only Israel but also Italy, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, former communist states and a host of others. Often these elements are concentrated in some intelligence agency or a totalitarian regime. A similar network brought about WW2's "axis of evil".
Wealth and power is an ideology unto itself, which is why such networks can exist. It's kind of funny, really, that given the pretext of Islamofasicm for the eroding of rights and freedoms that we're experiencing (and the fast increasing trend towards Soviet style repression) that the US is so chummy with the Saudis (and more directly the Bushs and the Bin Ladens - I mean, how fucking ironic is that?), who preside over the most fundamentalistic and terrorist producing Mulism state on the planet. It's just one of a number of reasons that the "Islamic" pretext is so obviously a fabrication. Civil rights in the US and here and in Britian and elsewhere are being eroded in ways that cannot be rationally justified by the threat of Islamic terrorism and often have no correlation to it at all. Most people seem rather oblivious to the various ways in which this is happening. Do most Americans, for example, have any idea how many "Signing Statements" Bush has actually put his name to? Have they examined the incredible trend in western culture of the militarisation of policing? Or that Bush wants to federalise the national guard? Do they know that the administration uses mercenaries in Iraq and has used those same mercenaries to "police" the streets of New Oleans after Katrina (i.e. the Blackwater firm)? There's lots of things that I could mention, some of which are echoed in changes in Australia and elsewhere. It's a rather disturbing trend.
By the way, I just made a post about the importance of water in the Israeli puzzle, but I made it in the oil thread and it's probably more on topic in this thread. Just seemed worthy of mentioning. The struggle for resources and wealth seems to be the main drive behind all rhetoric and pseudo-religion. Nothing shocking, I know.
Well, no, but it is a piece of the "Israel" puzzle worth examining. For Israel and its immediate neigbours, water is an extremely important matter, far more so than oil. Over the years attempted peace accords between Israel and "Palestine" have collapsed explicitly over the water issue. Water and farmable land are arguably at the core of territorial disputes in that part of the mid-east (aside form the general issue of the Palestinians). One could easily wonder if Israel's current venture into Lebanon really has much to do with Hizbollah but rather has everything to do with access to the Litani River. Israel has always taken control of water resources in its occupied territories. It will be interesting to see what the eventual outcome of this current conflict is with respect to the Litani. It may be we'll never know Israel's actual intentions due to the UN ceasefire measures.

The problem both for Israel and its neighbours is that they can't just come out and admit that their conflicts and battles ever have anything directly to do with resource demands. No-one would be very accepting of that; I doubt that it would even fly with their various foreign benefactors (certainly not In Israel's case). So, an issue like water will always be one of those things that everyone in the region understands but whose name they shall never speak. Water is of course an important factor in the Palestinian dilemma and a matter all too often ignored by those who hold the insipid view that Arabs in that region reject modernity and live some sort of Ludittic liifestyle due entirely to attitude and religion. No-one seems to bother to consider that the non-oil-rich Arab nations are also seriously non-water-rich and that of itself makes the process of embracing modernity and all its techological and industrial splendour somewhat difficult.

I want to end this post by returning to what I said at the beginning. Israel is a country also in the grip of a conservative movement and it is that movement that I find problematic in terms of how Israel conducts itself (and its connection to foreign conservative agendas). It has, like most of the western democracies, a left/right political spectrum with all the usual in-between shades. The agenda and behaviour of the Israeli right not only towards neighbours and the OTs, but also domestically, is every bit as disconcerting as that of the leadership of the US and here. And, just as in those countries, it is difficult to determine how broadly that agenda and behaviour reflects popular will. Certainly not everyone in Israel agrees with the continued occupation of Golan, West bank etc. I don't lnow if anyone remembers the not insignifcant rebellion that occured within the IDF around 2002 when a lot of soldiers refused to be stationed in the OTs. Just as a reminder, here's some material from that episode:

May 2, 2002 Israeli Soldiers Resisting the Occupation

"Why We Refuse to Fight" by Rami Kaplan

Israel's occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip can in no way be considered democratic. It oppresses 3.5 million people, denying them their basic human rights. My refusal to militarily participate in this occupation, on the other hand, is most certainly a democratic act.

It exercises my right to protest, as I strive to hold on to the values of justice and peace, and it sends a message to my government that it cannot use me as a tool for attaining every goal it decides upon. In doing so I am fulfilling my obligations as a moral citizen of the world. Every man and woman must decide where the boundaries of conscience lie, and my conscience does not permit me to fight today in the occupied territories.

The refusal of the 435 signatories to the "Courage to Refuse" letter [the figure at the time of writing of this letter - D.R.], is a refusal to fight for continuation of the occupation, or, more precisely, for continuation of the settlements. It is a refusal to fight in a war of choice fueled by an extremist messianic ideology.

Make no mistake, Israel has no other reason for remaining in the occupied territories than to preserve the existing settlements, even when they are deep within Palestinian centers of population. Maybe the Palestinians are not interested in peace - one of the most commonly heard justifications for our recent invasions - and truly want to push us into the sea. Even then, we would be much better off defending ourselves from the 1967 borders rather than from inside the narrow alleys of Jenin, Ramallah and Bethlehem. This is why I think that the occupation runs against the most basic interests of the state of Israel, even to the extent of threatening its very existence.

As a concerned and involved citizen in a democratic regime, I see it as my right and duty to do all I can to save my country, the country I am willing to die for, from this dizzy descent into violence and mayhem.

This kind of struggle is not one to wage alone, and so when I heard that a group of reserve officers were organizing with the intention of publishing an open letter stating their categorical refusal to don their uniforms in the service of the occupation, I knew I had to join them.

For me, as for the others who have signed our letter, the decision was at once terribly difficult yet glaringly simple.

Difficult, because I am a Zionist. I served in the standing army for six years, and have since spent upward of 50 days a year in the reserves, and I have always equated love of the country with loyal service in the army. It was difficult to break rank, to look my fellow officers and soldiers in the eye and tell them that I would not join in their next campaign, in the war for the settlements, a war we chose, not one we had forced upon us.

Yet the decision was also easy. Both as a democrat and as a patriot, I had no other choice. It took me a long time to realize, to understand that not everything I learned during my long years as an officer was correct. The turning point was a tour of duty in the Gaza Strip a year ago. My soldiers committed no atrocities, but I could see the futility of our military presence there, and the daily injustices inherent in it.

Today I stand firm, confident that I am doing the right thing, hopeful that the group of soldiers currently demonstrating their tremendous courage to refuse, and spending long weeks in military prisons as a result, will help bring an end to the occupation.

The occupation is destroying Israel from within, it is destroying the Palestinians, and it is destroying those two nations' common future.

# Rami Kaplan, aged 29, is a major in the Israeli armored corps and a leading activist in the Courage to Refuse group.

- - - - - - - - - -

This is the official letter from those servicemen that now has 550 signatories (which is a significant number):

* We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

* We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

* We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

* We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

* We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

* We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

* We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

* We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.

* The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

- - - - - - - -

And also a open letter of support from various academics around Israel:

"We, faculty members from a number of Israeli universities, wish to express our appreciation and support for those of our students and lecturers who refuse to serve as soldiers in the occupied territories. Such service too often involves carrying out orders that have no place in a democratic society founded on the sanctity of human life.

For thirty five years an entire people, some three and a half million in number, have been held without basic human rights. The occupation and oppression of another people have brought the State of Israel to where it is today.

Without an Israeli declaration of an end to the occupation, accompanied by appropriate action--unilateral, if necessary--the present war is not being fought for our home but for the settlements beyond the green line and for the continued oppression of another people.

We hereby express our readiness to do our best to help students who encounter academic, administrative or economic difficulties as a result of their refusal to serve in the territories. We call on the University community at large to support them."

# This letter is being updated. So far, 358 faculty members have signed it.

- - - - - - - - -

Israelis are in the same boat as many of us with regard to government doing as it pleases.


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Blair
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Post by Blair »

So Faizi, how old are you again, 5?
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Re: SCREAM THY LAST SCREAM

Post by Kevin Solway »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:So where did you base the first statement on then, that it was an escalation and it had become intolerable. Were you saying things you didn't believe yourself to be true?
Any statements based on empirical reports are pretty much guesswork, especially when they are based on reports of war.

So these statements of my are my best guess, since that is all we can ever have about such matters.
Kevin wrote: Then what do you think Israel should do in response to the thousands of missiles being fired at them? Turn the other cheek?
An illogical question since it's already established several times in this discussion that the 'thousands' of missiles came after the bombing of Beirut
It doesn't matter when the missiles started to be fired at Israel. Once they are being fired, there needs to be some kind of a response - even if the response is to turn the other cheek.

Everyone knows how to stop the Israelis bombing Lebanon: simply stop firing missiles at Israel and stop killing and kidnapping Israeli border troups. The bombing of Lebanon will magically stop.

The question of how to stop the attacks on Israel is another question, since it is the aim of many fundamentalist Islamists to destroy Israel.
Kevin wrote:In the second world war we took the side of the allies to fight against Germany. If we didn't take sides then Germany would have won the war.
Would that have impaired your philosophy, I wonder.
Perhaps. There might be some Jewish blood in my ancestry, say, 10 generation back. Or, if not, such an ancestry might be fabricated. And then I might be gassed to death, which would impair my philosophizing significantly.
What reason would you have to take side of the Alliance, assuming you weren't aware of what was going on in the concentration camps
Purely judging by Hitler's speeches, he was a complete madman. His every word is egoistic, manipulative drivel. For this reason alone I could not be tempted to take his side.
Why would you care exactly?
I would only care insofar is it would have an impact on the survival of wisdom.
And where would you base your choice on, the newspapers, the radio, your friends or your attachments?
All sources, and I would weigh-up their validity to the best of my ability.
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Post by Kevin Solway »

cosmic_prostitute wrote:Suppose someone breaks into my home and attacks me in my sleep then obviously I'm going to defend myself, this is almost an automatic reaction.
So let me get this straight: If someone tried to kill you when you were asleep you would fight back, but if they tried to kill you when you were awake you wouldn't fight back?

Is that right?

There is also such a thing as attachment to non-violence, which is really a form of violence in itself, since it is an act of violence against truth.
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World War III ?

Post by DHodges »

I sure hope this is wrong...

World War III

Is it plausible?
MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

The US neo-cons have been saying this ever since the current Middle East conflict began. I cannot see that we are closer to WWII now than back in the sixties, during Vietnam -- or earlier -- the Cuban missile crisis.

But I could be wrong.

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Post by Dan Rowden »

I don't think the Iranians are that stupid. People place far too much importance upon rhetoric designed for domestic audiences. What possible advantage could there be in Iran attacking Israel? When has it ever done that in the past? If something happens it will more likely be your typical false flag event. Do it yourself and blame the ones you most want to attack.

I'd be more concerned that the reports that Syria has been lining up tanks on its border might be true.

Oh, and Kevin, will you stop with the propagandist "destroy Israel" tripe already? The more that overhyped (and literally impossible) crap gets trotted out the more it makes it impossible for Arabs to have their legitimate greivances taken seriously. It is grossly unjust in my view.


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Post by Kelly Jones »

All those bloody wars are merely unclean boils erupting above the "peaceful" societies. The real war is not occurring in Iran or Iraq or in whichever neo-Nazi group. It is occurring in the individual wherever he is, who continues to suckle under the talons of society.

He is the ill-famed "muselmanner" of concentration camps: so little ego that he creates hatred wherever he goes.
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