The Hezbollah and Israel

[millipodium]

Diebert,

BTW, Bush lost the majority vote in 2000 and was given the presidency by the conservative Supreme Court. In 2004, Karl Rove did an admittedly brilliant job of fearmongering after 9/11 to allow Bush to squeek by with a slight majority. Functionally, this country has been divided right down the middle (though it is much less polarized now that the Bush administration's "competence" has been irrefutable).

The progressives are angry and feel as if the last 6 years have been stolen from them. And really the only things the hardcore right wing can do is continue with the character assasinations and argue from defensive postions.

Yeah, I followed the developments there quite closely for a couple of reasons. Traveled also a few times to the US last years. But I'm aware there are many who hold another vision on what exactly transpired. And John Kerry might have been worse than Bush though when push would come to shove and the current Democrats seem as war hungry as their counterparts. So far the only serious opposition comes from the 'old right'. I think it's time for those two giant parties to go to pieces like some Osiris and become alive again through healthy multiplicity.

What does that mean? To become alive through healthy multiplicity

I guess i'm old right, because I believe we should do what is good for america. We should reject the globalism designed to destroy our country and we shouldn't ruin our country with socialism and self hatred.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

What does that mean? To become alive through healthy multiplicity

Allowing for more discourse, more different opinions without branding them as terrorist or anti-American. Perhaps some more large political parties with some bigger differences between them as now. For example, it doesn't seem really healthy if the US senate votes unanimous for supporting unconditionally Israel and the House 410-8. And I can't believe the US citizens are behind Israel in the same numbers. So something must be terribly disconnected there. A normal majority in a democracy is lucky to have 60-70% maximum on any hot issue.

And the last presidential election I saw one candidate promoting his liberation wars, battling another one who claimed there were not enough troops yet in Iraq to do the job, where he voted in favor for in the first place.

No significant voice of discontent any more in the political arena. They are all buried or marginalized to the amusement, pop and blog culture there over the last decade(s), one by one. And so a great nation arrives on the slippery slope which Germany was sliding down in the 1930's. A radical different form perhaps but at the core the same processes are ready to go. Example: calling the UN (league of nations) a useless debating club, as if it was founded to be used by some country and not to debate on and on. Duh!

[millipodium]

What does that mean? To become alive through healthy multiplicity

Allowing for more discourse, more different opinions without branding them as terrorist or anti-American. Perhaps some more large political parties with some bigger differences between them as now. For example, it doesn't seem really healthy if the US senate votes unanimous for supporting unconditionally Israel and the House 410-8. And I can't believe the US citizens are behind Israel in the same numbers. So something must be terribly disconnected there. A normal majority in a democracy is lucky to have 60-70% maximum on any hot issue.

And the last presidential election I saw one candidate promoting his liberation wars, battling another one who claimed there were not enough troops yet in Iraq to do the job, where he voted in favor for in the first place.

No significant voice of discontent any more in the political arena. They are all buried or marginalized to the amusement, pop and blog culture there over the last decade(s), one by one. And so a great nation arrives on the slippery slope which Germany was sliding down in the 1930's. A radical different form perhaps but at the core the same processes are ready to go. Example: calling the UN (league of nations) a useless debating club, as if it was founded to be used by some country and not to debate on and on. Duh!

That sounds good. It would also be cool if the influence of jews could be discussed without everybody going into hysterics.

[Leyla Shen]

Kevin wrote:

If you can convince the Israelis that they should move then you're welcome to try. It would be a noble pursuit to try to convince them. But, ultimately, I don't believe it will be successful. The Israelis have too much attachment, too much ego invested in it - as is only human.

Jewish culture can be intellectual, but it is not philosophical and wise. Some of the younger generation have some hope though.

It's not practical to leave Israel where it is, but its probably even more impractical to move it.

My interest is not in convincing the Israelis to move. It is in exposing the fallacious nature of the arguments for its existence. It is not hard to figure out that Israel exists. Not even hard to figure how and why it exists. I am also not concerned about how much ego and attachment the Jews or the Tharans of the world have invested in it when I speak against them, or how “human” their investment is. I care nothing for these things.

I do care about the hypocrisy and unreason behind arguing against barbarism with intellectualised barbarism, which is then called “reason.”

“They kill everyone’s women and children including their own women and children, so let’s put ourselves in the middle of it and go kill their women and children because we are so independently advanced and superior that that is the only position left to us.”

I don’t buy the bullshit.

The fact is that the Middle East is resource rich. Have any of you people heard of OPEC? Now, there’s the heart of the realistic threat to our “women and children.”

Course, I can understand Tharan’s position. I am a women. Not only that, I am a women with three children. Apparently, because of the Alaska pipeline (on top of everything else), I am a women with three children who will, in the very near future, have to pay $1.80 cents/litre for petrol. But I am not a women with three children about to pay $1.80 cents/litre for petrol who is ignorant of geopolitics and tries to pretend that US/Israel policy on the Middle East is altruistically motivated out of a concern for the murder of women and children by Muslim fundamentalists whilst they commit the same crime on a much grander scale.

Get real.

.

[MKFaizi]

Reading the most recent passages here, I am disappointed -- if I can be disappointed. If I had any feeling, I would strap a bomb to myself and blow myself up in the forest behind my house. Just for fun, of course. I doubt anyone would notice. A suicide bomber who does not give a shit -- pieces of human entrails hanging in the maples and oaks, doing nothing -- no purpose; no promise of seventy two odd virgins, not a martyr to either religion or politics -- just blood and guts among the flora and fungii.

I am not ashamed to say it. God, how I completely loathe the scum of the earth. How I loathe blind tribalism, especially when unconsciously espoused by those who claim to be enlightened and have claimed to be enlightened for years.

It is ironic that those on the side of Israel cite civilization and modernity and secularlism and defense while 1200 civilians in Lebanon -- many, many children -- are wasted.

I simply cannot grasp that -- the kind of hatred involved. I cannot fully grasp the scope of political ignorance and arrogance -- not to mention religiousity.

I am greatly disappointed and appalled by the prejudice of two so called sages who cannot see beyond their belts. The world does not consist of America and Britain. There are many lands and many cultures that beg understanding.

There has been too much and too long a tolerance for deaths of Muslims in the name of superior Judaism and Christianity. It is quite all right for Israel to slaughter the Lebanese because Israel is right to defend itself.

Was Germany defending itself by putting Jews into the gas chambers?

I am very disappointed in the writers to this forum -- especially David Quinn and Kevin Solway. How they tow the American line.

I would have expected better thinking.

Faizi

[Ryan Rudolph]

Leyla Shen wrote:

It is in exposing the fallacious nature of the arguments for its existence

.

An argument for its existence is just as absurd as an argument agaisnt its existence.

the fact of the matter is that it is there. That is what is.

How long are you going to go in circles with this Leyla?

good grief...

[MKFaizi]

Leyla Shen wrote:

I do care about the hypocrisy and unreason behind arguing against barbarism with intellectualised barbarism, which is then called “reason.”

Excellent reasoning, I think. Good writing and thought. Very unusual insight on this forum.

Sadly, I think the shoe fits and ought to be worn.

It is worn -- stepping through bacterial ridden buffalo dung passing for enlightened thought. The boot fodder of low browed captains. Red-cheeked American pallor -- also Australians. Tharan should speak to a recruiter as soon as possible. They all lie but he won't know the difference. An army recruiter could shove a cow pie down his throat and he would think it was cheesecake and swallow it whole.

My little girl is going to join the military on Friday. She does not have the money for college and there is nothing going in this putrid little town. No jobs. I hate for her to have to go to Iraq but might be better than Buchanan -- not as many Christians, for one thing. God, I hate Christians. I would never hurt anyone but this Christian majority thing is disgusting.

Joining the army for poor people in the US is kind of like going on the dole. You get your clothing free and you have a place to live and your food is provided and you get a check. Plus, you get to travel.

She is going into the Marines. She is an uncannily beautiful girl. I hate to see her go but anything is better than staying here.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

How long are you going to go in circles with this Leyla?

How long are you going to stick your head up your ass and how long are you going to continue addressing only females on this forum whom you obviously view as lesser contenders?

You need a purely masculine point of view. Why do you gravitate toward what you assume to be the feminine?

Positively disgusting.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

The Tony Blair photo is even more disgusting than the one of the Hezbollah dude.

Faizi

[Kevin Solway]

Was Germany defending itself by putting Jews into the gas chambers?

The Jews weren't firing thousands of missiles at German population centres.

The news reporting here in Australia has been biased against the Israelis.

I think it is fine to treat the Israelis as the aggressors provided you hold that the state of Israel shouldn't exist in the first place. Otherwise the Israelis should be able to defend themselves.

The journalists here in Australia have treated the Israelis as the aggressors, but haven't openly stated that they believe that the state of Israel shouldn't exist.

That's what I object to. All the cards should be laid on the table.

In other words, if you think the state of Israel has validity, then Israel is merely defending itself. But if you think Israel shouldn't exist, then the Israelis, and the United Nations, are aggressors.

It's that simple.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Faizi wrote:

How long are you going to stick your head up your ass and how long are you going to continue addressing only females on this forum whom you obviously view as lesser contenders?

I address males.

Faizi wrote:

Why do you gravitate toward what you assume to be the feminine?

I gravitate towards sentences that involuntarily stimulate a response.

[MKFaizi]

Kevin Solway wrote:

It's that simple.

No, it is not that simple. I am extremely disappointed in your ignorance. I am extremely disappointed in your lack of compassion.

The so called press here is not portraying Israel as the aggressors. Actually, I do not see portrayal of anything. Pretty matter of fact. They have to tread pretty carefully because the US is always sympathetic to Israel. You kind of have to read between the lines.

This evening, for instance, it was reported that Israel had its bloodiest day ever -- fifteen soldiers killed.

Nothng compared to the losses of the Lebanese civilian populace.

I will not waiver in my disappointment with you and David Quinn on this matter. I cannot believe your blatant ignorance and your willful stupidity and hatefulness.

Emotional maturity, my ass. You would not know it if it bit you on the nose, so stuck up in racial and cultural unconsicousness as you are. You have the emotional maturity of a turtle.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

Como wrote:

I gravitate towards sentences that involuntarily stimulate a response.

Put more succinctly, you suck pussy.

You are a womanizer and a cunt.

No point in arguing about it. I don't think I can say it more plainly.

Faizi

[David Quinn]

Marsha wrote:

I am very disappointed in the writers to this forum -- especially David Quinn and Kevin Solway. How they tow the American line.

What line is that? As Bush suggested that Israel move to Alaska?

I'm personally disappointed that many forum members are being so emotional about what is essentially just another squabble in a long line of squabbles in the Middle East. Haven't people got something more dignified to get emotional about?

-

[Leyla Shen]

Dickhead wrote:

I gravitate towards sentences that involuntarily stimulate a response.

Yes. In other words, as far as thinking individuals go, you are unconscious.

~

David wrote:

I'm personally disappointed that many forum members are being so emotional about what is essentially just another squabble in a long line of squabbles in the Middle East. Haven't people got something more dignified to get emotional about?

Sure. We could go back to discussing Woman. Personally, I don’t see that much difference, really. Do you?

.

[millipodium]

Leyla Shen wrote:

It is in exposing the fallacious nature of the arguments for its existence

.

An argument for its existence is just as absurd as an argument agaisnt its existence.

the fact of the matter is that it is there. That is what is.

How long are you going to go in circles with this Leyla?

good grief...

But the neocon jew worshippers keep continually clamoring about the moral superiority of israel. It's not moral for the UN, Britain, and US to give a special interest group someone else's land.

So saying "it is what is" is a willful severance of the relevant chain of causality. "Hezbollah started it, THIS TIME", bull f-ing shit.

[Tharan]

It is as if there has been a collective forgetfullness as to the nature of war. 1200 children dead, poor poor innocent civilians...blah, blah, blah,

Why have the two people here with Middle Eastern sympathies not mentioned the indescriminate shelling of innocent civilian homes that started this entire conflict? Do you think the coordination of Hamas and Hizbollah were just pure simple coincidence? If so, what naivete. I would enjoy saying I am extremely dissapointed also, but actually I am not surprised. It seems to be a worldwide phenomenon of willfull forgetfullness.

How many children died when USA and Russia destroyed Berlin? And yet WWII seems to have lost all emotional components and become simply a nice historical story. This is also war. From Khobar Towers, to Bali, to the embassies in Africa, to the World Trade center (both in '94 and 2001), to London, Madrid, and Mumbai...these are all acts of war. They are a common enemy with common grievances of land acquisition, religion, religious apocalypse, heros and martyrs, and evangelizing through murder when necessary. Not to mention the official Jew hating indoctrination of the children. The ONLY difference now is that the world is now flat and political boundaries are almost complete immaterial. And these are not excusable underdeveloped ignorants we are talking about here. In fact, There ARE no excuses anymore that the hawks in the west will listen to. Either the murder stops or it gets worse.

This is war and MORE children will die until the Muslim fanatics stop the fighting. Only then. And I personally put most of responsibility for that to occur on the moderate Muslims of the world, as well as their sympathizers. If you love the children then stop your brothers. This war will continue until one of us makes them stop. And if the victims and nonistigators of this prideful slaughter have to make them stop, it will not be through Geneva Convention-style "play nice" or moral. But it will be done. The choice is and always has been with the moderates and the sympathizers as to how it gets done.

*edit*
And I really don't care if you agree or disagree with me. Rather, I would prefer to hear what you are going to do about it.

[millipodium]

It is as if there has been a collective forgetfullness as to the nature of war. 1200 children dead, poor poor innocent civilians...blah, blah, blah,

Why have the two people here with Middle Eastern sympathies not mentioned the indescriminate shelling of innocent civilian homes that started this entire conflict? Do you think the coordination of Hamas and Hizbollah were just pure simple coincidence? If so, what naivete. I would enjoy saying I am extremely dissapointed also, but actually I am not surprised. It seems to be a worldwide phenomenon of willfull forgetfullness.

How many children died when USA and Russia destroyed Berlin? And yet WWII seems to have lost all emotional components and become simply a nice historical story. This is also war. From Khobar Towers, to Bali, to the embassies in Africa, to the World Trade center (both in '94 and 2001), to London, Madrid, and Mumbai...these are all acts of war. They are a common enemy with common grievances of land acquisition, religion, religious apocalypse, heros and martyrs, and evangelizing through murder when necessary. Not to mention the official Jew hating indoctrination of the children. The ONLY difference now is that the world is now flat and political boundaries are almost complete immaterial. And these are not excusable underdeveloped ignorants we are talking about here. In fact, There ARE no excuses anymore that the hawks in the west will listen to. Either the murder stops or it gets worse.

This is war and MORE children will die until the Muslim fanatics stop the fighting. Only then. And I personally put most of responsibility for that to occur on the moderate Muslims of the world, as well as their sympathizers. If you love the children then stop your brothers. This war will continue until one of us makes them stop. And if the victims and nonistigators of this prideful slaughter have to make them stop, it will not be through Geneva Convention-style "play nice" or moral. But it will be done. The choice is and always has been with the moderates and the sympathizers as to how it gets done.

*edit*
And I really don't care if you agree or disagree with me. Rather, I would prefer to hear what you are going to do about it.

Are you for stopping the influx of radical jihadis into the western nations?

[Ryan Rudolph]

Kevin Solway wrote:

In other words, if you think the state of Israel has validity, then Israel is merely defending itself. But if you think Israel shouldn't exist, then the Israelis, and the United Nations, are aggressors.

It's that simple.

Is it as simple as picking one side based on one limited factor when there are an infinite number of factors to consider?

The fact of the matter is that both groups are inheritably irrational due to years of psychological ignorance and abuse to each other.

To commit an evil deed, it takes two to tango. One cannot do it alone, The attacker is a defender and the defender is an attacker.

There is no right side or wrong side. Both are wrong, both are irrational and both are doomed.

Nietzsche once said “he who fights with monsters be careful not be become a monster”

The truth is that both the Hezabollah and Israel have grown into monsters and there is no solution, there is no way out. All we can do is watch them self-destruct.

All one can do is understand the myriad of psychological motivations leading to the separation and conflict between them, but to pick a side here is absurd.

It would be like seeing a fire separated into two by a large log and deciding to grab one side of flame thinking it is less hot than the other side.

Some people here are pointing fingers at each other, but the the very finger they are using to point is on fire...

So for heavens sake people, find some water before you have to amputate.

[Leyla Shen]

Tharan:

They are a common enemy with common grievances of land acquisition, religion, religious apocalypse, heros and martyrs, and evangelizing through murder when necessary.

The first intelligent thing you've said in the discussion so far. Now, how do you isolate these people on a global scale?

.

[Tharan]

I am so happy you are pleased with my display of inteligence. You also have been nothing but the epitome of rationality, logic, and emotionlessness throughout this thread.

At this point Sister, I feel it is going to have to be people such as yourself that are going to have to figure out a way to stop your brothers from fighting us. Until that time, we will continue to murder your children.

[Leyla Shen]

Why, hello again, Tharan. It's lovely to see you, too! Oh, how I love the company of the bourgeoisie -- the putrid scent of mediocrity. (Draws in a deep breath) Ahhh!

But, I have a question for you.

Was the content of your last post supposed to be some sort of messianic revelation? A prophecy? Maybe a grand insight from the depths of sagely reason and wisdom? Or, just more of your plain ol' reason itself?

Nah, more like a misguided attempt at parody to band-aid the weeping, rancid sores of your emotionalism.

Obviously, you have a serious reading/comprehension problem. But I am happy to continue with you in this vein should you so desire. (Rolls up her sleeves…)

Wakey, wakey -- hands off flaccid snakey…

.

[David Quinn]

Leyla,

DQ: I'm personally disappointed that many forum members are being so emotional about what is essentially just another squabble in a long line of squabbles in the Middle East. Haven't people got something more dignified to get emotional about?

LS: Sure. We could go back to discussing Woman. Personally, I don’t see that much difference, really. Do you?

There is always a chance when discussing Woman that people wlll have significant breakthoughs in their philosophic understanding, greater insights into Reality, clearer understanding of humanity's deeper psychology, stronger resolution to give up all attachments and leave the ego behind, etc. There is virtually no chance of this happening with heated discussions about tribal squabbles in the Middle East.

In fact, the reverse is more likely to be the case. People are more likely to sink even further into the mire of their emotional attachments and the root causes which generate all these tribal squabbles in the first place are likely to become even more entrenched.

-

[Diebert van Rhijn]

From Khobar Towers, to Bali, to the embassies in Africa, to the World Trade center (both in '94 and 2001), to London, Madrid, and Mumbai...these are all acts of war. They are a common enemy....

Well, actually upon investigation they are not. It's unlike WW1, WW2 or the Cold War. This is a war against as well as between lose networks of shifting alliances and quite differing motives. No governments, nations, or one geographically easy to mark location is involved. The term is coined 'fourth generation warfare' and it redefined war. While the neoconservative armchair generals are still stuck in the cold war, intelligence networks and the thread of nuclear arsenals, I believe the world moved on and it's time people wake up to that reality.

I find Ahmadinejad, Iran's president at times quite lucid sounding, like in his interview his Mike Wallace (will be broadcast this coming weekend!) were he says that Bush still thinks that his "power emanates from his arsenals of nuclear warheads" but that now instead is the "era of thoughts, dialogue and cultural exchanges."

It might sound idealist or opportunistic but I believe he's right to say that scare mongering, threats, bombing raids and building up nuclear arsenal don't impress many anymore, I mean with the growing amount of people willing to blow themselves up or becoming apethic otherwise, how can they be scared into something? And this death-defying group is growing, no weapon is gonna keep it down (now that is Jihad!).

This is war and MORE children will die until the Muslim fanatics stop the fighting. Only then.

Oh but they won't. They fought to long, more than a few generations have given their blood. Cannot stop now.

And I personally put most of responsibility for that to occur on the moderate Muslims of the world, as well as their sympathizers.

The responsibility lies with everyone resisting radical change of the crumbling world order. Old systems of control are losing their function. But I'm not sure what will comes next, perhaps rising chaos and anarchy, perhaps something else.

I don't expect peace to arise, but one can always hope for more honesty in assessing the situation.

[Jamesh]

Ahmadinejad: "He's actually, in a strange way, he's a rather attractive man, very smart, savvy, self-assured, good looking in a strange way," Wallace said. "He's very, very short but he's comfortable in his own skin."

I bet this dude has short persons disease - compulsive attention seeking and lying. Probably has a mind akin to that of Hitler. Why the hell folks like him don't get assassinated in these days of superb surveillence technology and long distance weaponry, that could kill him from a safe distance, is beyond me. Of course Western pollies who could arrange such an event don't do so, because of the fear of retaliation assassinations.