The Hezbollah and Israel

[millipodium]

I hate seeing the whole world pulled into Jewish Tribalism.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Diebert, I generally like what you write, but am I really supposed to respond to "I heard that Isreali pilots eat live kittens" or something similar?

Please explain for our dear readers WHY Israel occupied southern Lebanon. Was it for treasure? Women? Oil?

Well, from my armchair view it seems as if they are preparing to have a bufferzone to prevent being poked "in the rear" when they're going for Syria. Without financial and intelligence backing Hezbollah would only be a marginal group, easy to infiltrate and destroy for something like the Mossad.

Israel responded. They did not instigate. They vacated their buffer zone from their victory in '67 and vacated their buffer zone in southern Lebanon, and look what they get in return.

Israel abducted over the years just as many Hamas and Hezbollah suspects, cross border. Bulldozing Palestine settlements, starting new Jewish settlements on disputed territory and various other raids have fueled enough anger I'd suppose. Why are you so attached an image of Israeli passiveness? They never were.

If both sides of this conflict were equally armed, tell me how you might imagine the tactics of the ones you protect with your words.

Protection is not my goal. Why would I take sides? At the moment I think Israel is generally more deluded and/or lying than their opponents. But it's only a slight difference, but enough to post about.

Fears like this is the seed of your defeat. I would take full advantage of it and destroy you.

Of course, the state of Israel has to be destroyed in the eyes of this guerrilla resistance. Not the people, just the state and its policies. IF anyone can think of a less radical solution to the conflict that is based on the realities there, I'd like to hear and discuss them.

Also, please explain for us what it is in the history of the culture of the Jews that would cause the behavior of desiring the deaths of children.

Their own holy writ of history illustrates a warring people, sparing hardly a soul during conquest. Actually Yahweh gave specific instruction to kill even the cattle, let alone women and babies.

My explanation for this is their heightened sense of identity. They historically refused to be mixed or influenced in terms of culture, religion or ways of thinking (denying their own mixed origins that way). Nowadays Jews of course are mixed with the world's population so we see only the actions of a few fanatics at the top. The lack of response from the rest of the world might be a result of yet another identification - with Israel, at some level.

The emotionalism and lack of reason, in this case from people I normally think of as generally rational, astounds me. And it is world wide phenomenon. I really have no explanation for why it is. I have never seen anything like it.

I'm more surprised why most seem so supportive of Israel. "They look more like us than the rest and so they are good", must be the thought here.

You have to understand I'm not taking sides ultimately. I just go after the bigger ignorance first, the most deadly. I'm sure Hezbollah are bastards too, if you mean to say that.

I am literally amazed that I find myself defending the Israelis, who I have no particualr love for in the first place.

A reverse amazement here. I've no sympathy for any party but I find myself exposing Israeli delusion. Maybe next we can start exposing Arab delusions of grandeur?

[Cory Duchesne]

Milli wrote,

I hate seeing the whole world pulled into Jewish Tribalism.

And why is it ok for you to hate, and not ok for others?

You accuse people of hating as if its the worse crime.

[millipodium]

Milli wrote,

I hate seeing the whole world pulled into Jewish Tribalism.

And why is it ok for you to hate, and not ok for others?

You accuse people of hating as if its the worse crime.

It's the object of hate that matters. Hate itself is not wrong.

You hate all ideals, except nihilism. I hate seeing the world being pulled into tribalistic tensions from the dark ages.

[Cory Duchesne]

I think this thread is a good opportunity to test out what I see as the truth.

Israel obviously uses ideals to stimulate some shallow feelings of dignity and pride.

The Hezbolah obviously do the same.

Ideals can only create conflict. Man will always be in conflict with himself and with others as long as he is idealistic.

I am not urging man to drop his ideals. For that would be idealistic of me.

However, perhaps some of you understand it like I do.

Most of the people on this thread are asking good questions and presenting careful interpreations based on the consideration of facts, and I think that, if a person is to be rational, then that is all they can do.

The emotional, angry and hateful moments on this thread are most likely due to an emotional involvment with ideals.

One cannot be idealistic AND unemotional.

If you understand what i'm talking about, your ideals will wither away.

If you disagree, well that's fine with me

[millipodium]

I think this thread is a good opportunity to test out what I see as the truth.

Israel obviously uses ideals to stimulate some shallow feelings of dignity and pride.

The Hezbolah obviously do the same.

Ideals can only create conflict. Man will always be in conflict with himself and with others as long as he is idealistic.

I am not urging man to drop his ideals. For that would be idealistic of me.

However, perhaps some of you understand it like I do.

Most of the people on this thread are asking good questions and presenting careful interpreations based on the consideration of facts, and I think that, if a person is to be rational, then that is all they can do.

The emotional, angry and hateful moments on this thread are most likely due to an emotional involvment with ideals.

One cannot be idealistic AND unemotional.

If you understand what i'm talking about, your ideals will wither away.

If you disagree, well that's fine with me

Actually, man will always be in conflict with himself, as long as he has any regard whatsoever for his fellow man, or as long as he weighs the long term value of cooperative relationships vs. the short term value of stabbing everyone in the back.

Your notion of "ideals" as the creator of conflict is retarded. Though I understand perfectly what you're saying, I do not agree, and I pity your stupidity.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Faizi wrote:

He calls himself Cosmic Prostitute. How is that different from Universal Hooker or whatever other whore thing? Take that whore with you.

Leyla Shen wrote:

I’d accuse the prostitute but I don’t think he has it in him -- he’s a Jew. I can smell it. On second thought, I wouldn’t put anything past a Jew -- they have a tendency to fuck their way to the “top.”

Here are some of the lyrics from one of my favorite songs by Elton John:

And can you feel the love tonight
It is where we are
It's enough for this wide-eyed wanderer
That we got this far
And can you feel the love tonight
How it's laid to rest
It's enough to make kings and vagabonds
Believe the very best

Hey ladies I was thinking of moving to Iran and setting up a Harem because apparently as a cullture the arabs are quite notorious for that sort of thing, and I was wandering if you two would be interested in being my first two members. Dont worry I'll give you higher status over the other 18 virgins I'll recruit, but you both are virgins right?

[DHodges]

Your notion of "ideals" as the creator of conflict is retarded. Though I understand perfectly what you're saying, I do not agree, and I pity your stupidity.

Milli - chill out!

[Greg Shantz]

While I am writing, I feel compelled to address the seventy two virgins crap. I am sick and tired of that phrase. I was a Muslim for several years and I never heard reference to that idea until 9/11. Yes, I am aware that it is in the Koran but there are plenty of stupid things in the Bible, too. My husband was a devout Muslim and he never spoke of going to Heaven and getting laid.

In fact, his idea of the afterlife was that he would have to face God alone and God would judge him. After that, his soul would have to serve a long time in Purgatory before being allowed into paradise or Heaven. His idea of Heaven was of a place of no suffering. That's it. No wild parties with seventy two virgins.

I found this bit in some of Dave Sim's writings which sheds some light on things:

The descriptions of heaven in the Koran are recurrent (much of the Koran is recurrent: I've been tempted to do my own concordance just to establish how many phrases recur the most often and how many pages of material there are once you cancel out the repetitions), most often "shade-giving trees 'neath which rivers flow." It's hard to even picture what is meant by this. A garden in the sky above rivers? A garden over underground rivers? But that's the most recurrent phrase. Mentioned dozens, if not hundreds of times. Far, far less often are the houris mentioned, the dark-eyed women, "wives of stainless purity". I would be willing to bet it's less than half a dozen references. I can only think of three specific references out of the whole 114 Suras. Once or twice the gender isn't even mentioned, they're called "aye-blooming youths". And the sense is always that they are servants. You recline on couches (the couches are mentioned maybe a half dozen times) and you're served. I think there's only one reference to what you are served and it's described as "mead" which has a miraculous taste but which doesn't make you drunk. And that's it, Tim. That is where they get the idea of 70 virgins. None of the references says anything about sex. It is inferred in the "wives of stainless purity" line: that's what you do with a wife in Islam. But, that is literally two or three references out of hundreds and hundreds. I remember reading a news item after one of the suicide bombings where it was mentioned that a lot of them believe they can bring 70 of their relatives with them. Which is so contrary to the Koran it boggles my mind. The whole point of Judgement Day is that one soul can't vouch for another. You get your book, your record of everything you did and didn't do put into your hand and no one will have to indict you. You'll read your book and indict yourself. A son can't vouch for his father, a father can't vouch for a son. In fact, according to the Koran, there was a fourth son of Noah who chose to seek higher ground instead of going onto the ark. And God specifically tells Noah not to plead for him. The boy is not Noah's son in any meaningful sense of the term. This is worlds away from the idea being promulagated that if you do a good job of blowing yourself up, you get to bring 70 people with you. Where do they get this stuff? has been my consistent reaction to everything I've heard from modern-day Islam, having read at least one Sura a week for the last seven years. - Collected Letters 2004 p. 118

[millipodium]

Your notion of "ideals" as the creator of conflict is retarded. Though I understand perfectly what you're saying, I do not agree, and I pity your stupidity.

Milli - chill out!

Chill out?

No. I will continue to identify pseudointellectual, nihilistic, hate-filled tyrants where I find them.

If it's the case that I've violated some primitive social pecking order on the board, then I suggest you grow accustomed to the aroma of my nut sweat on your brow, as it soon will become the identifying pheromone of the group as a whole.

keep on truckin', mr. picky.

[Leyla Shen]

James emoted:

Leyla, for you dear. Some small support I read today of an earlier argument of mine.

Aw, thanks, love. What would I ever do without you?

Hezbolllah's Aim is Power

An aberration, surely? Unfortunately not. When the Herald raised the issue with Ziad Abs, an adviser to one of the Christian leaders, he volunteered this information: "We have six or seven hospitals that have been built and equipped with international funding, but all remain closed because there is no agreement on which sect is to have control of them."

Support Lebanese and you are supporting inane masculine emotions, the bad side of masculinity.

Really?

Monday, July 31st, 2006

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl? ... 31/1435219

I went to Tyre, Amy. By the time this has happened -- to get from Beirut now to the south takes four to six hours, because of the broken bridges and the bombed roads, and I realized that by the time I got down there, the wounded would have been in the hospitals in Tyre, and the dead would be already brought from Qana to the villages. So when I got there, I went straight to the government hospital in Tyre, where many of the wounded -- and there weren't many, because most of them died -- had been taken and where they were counting the number of children.

Jul 28, 7:14 PM ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060728/ap_ ... non_israel

Missiles destroyed three buildings in the village of Kfar Jouz near the market town of Nabatiyeh, apparently targeting the apartment of a Hezbollah activist. A Jordanian was killed in a nearby house, and the blasts collapsed a shelter, killing a Lebanese husband and wife.

Three women were killed in strikes on their homes in other southern villages, security officials said. A wounded woman was rushed to the hospital in the village of Ain Arab, and more people were believed trapped in the debris of a destroyed building there.

At least 445 people have been killed in Lebanon in the fighting, most of them civilians, according to a Health Ministry count Friday based on bodies taken to hospitals. But Lebanon's health minister estimated Thursday that as many as Lebanese 600 civilians have been killed, with other victims buried in rubble.

July 24, 2006

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5577538

Among the victims of the airstrikes was 8-month-old Mariam Surour. She lay in a hospital bed Sunday, screaming in pain, her arm splinted, yellow iodine slathered over the burns on her body.
Her 12-year-old brother Mahmoud sat in the hospital bed beside her, his jaw periodically trembling from shock and pain. Doctors spread thick white ointment over the bloody red burns on his face and eyes.

"I want a drink," Mahmoud called out. "My eyes!" he yelled, moments later.

Doctors say the attack killed Mahmoud's father and brother. His mother stood over his bed, distraught and deaf from the sound of the blast.

He screeched to a halt just yards from the entrance to Najem Hospital where he was treated and now lies bruised and bandaged in a hospital bed. His burned Nissan lies outside the hospital, still smoking.

"We had 15 or 20 wounded all coming in the space of five minutes," he said. "We couldn't even figure out which attack the wounded were coming from because there were three bombings."

July 21, 2006

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/21/news/tyre.php

Officials at the Tyre Government Hospital inside a Palestinian refugee camp said they had counted the bodies of 50 children among the 115 in the refrigerated truck in the morgue, although their count could not be independently confirmed.

"This hospital is working like a morgue more than a hospital," said Hala Hijazi, a volunteer whose mother is an anesthesiologist at the hospital. Lately, Hijazi said, she has begun to recognize some of the faces arriving here as the scope of the Israeli bombings has widened. "A lot of the people are from Tyre, and we know some of them," she said of the bodies.

.

[millipodium]

James emoted:

Leyla, for you dear. Some small support I read today of an earlier argument of mine.

Aw, thanks, love. What would I ever do without you?

Hezbolllah's Aim is Power

An aberration, surely? Unfortunately not. When the Herald raised the issue with Ziad Abs, an adviser to one of the Christian leaders, he volunteered this information: "We have six or seven hospitals that have been built and equipped with international funding, but all remain closed because there is no agreement on which sect is to have control of them."

Support Lebanese and you are supporting inane masculine emotions, the bad side of masculinity.

Really?

Monday, July 31st, 2006

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl? ... 31/1435219

I went to Tyre, Amy. By the time this has happened -- to get from Beirut now to the south takes four to six hours, because of the broken bridges and the bombed roads, and I realized that by the time I got down there, the wounded would have been in the hospitals in Tyre, and the dead would be already brought from Qana to the villages. So when I got there, I went straight to the government hospital in Tyre, where many of the wounded -- and there weren't many, because most of them died -- had been taken and where they were counting the number of children.

Jul 28, 7:14 PM ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060728/ap_ ... non_israel

Missiles destroyed three buildings in the village of Kfar Jouz near the market town of Nabatiyeh, apparently targeting the apartment of a Hezbollah activist. A Jordanian was killed in a nearby house, and the blasts collapsed a shelter, killing a Lebanese husband and wife.

Three women were killed in strikes on their homes in other southern villages, security officials said. A wounded woman was rushed to the hospital in the village of Ain Arab, and more people were believed trapped in the debris of a destroyed building there.

At least 445 people have been killed in Lebanon in the fighting, most of them civilians, according to a Health Ministry count Friday based on bodies taken to hospitals. But Lebanon's health minister estimated Thursday that as many as Lebanese 600 civilians have been killed, with other victims buried in rubble.

July 24, 2006

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5577538

Among the victims of the airstrikes was 8-month-old Mariam Surour. She lay in a hospital bed Sunday, screaming in pain, her arm splinted, yellow iodine slathered over the burns on her body.
Her 12-year-old brother Mahmoud sat in the hospital bed beside her, his jaw periodically trembling from shock and pain. Doctors spread thick white ointment over the bloody red burns on his face and eyes.

"I want a drink," Mahmoud called out. "My eyes!" he yelled, moments later.

Doctors say the attack killed Mahmoud's father and brother. His mother stood over his bed, distraught and deaf from the sound of the blast.

He screeched to a halt just yards from the entrance to Najem Hospital where he was treated and now lies bruised and bandaged in a hospital bed. His burned Nissan lies outside the hospital, still smoking.

"We had 15 or 20 wounded all coming in the space of five minutes," he said. "We couldn't even figure out which attack the wounded were coming from because there were three bombings."

July 21, 2006

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/21/news/tyre.php

Officials at the Tyre Government Hospital inside a Palestinian refugee camp said they had counted the bodies of 50 children among the 115 in the refrigerated truck in the morgue, although their count could not be independently confirmed.

"This hospital is working like a morgue more than a hospital," said Hala Hijazi, a volunteer whose mother is an anesthesiologist at the hospital. Lately, Hijazi said, she has begun to recognize some of the faces arriving here as the scope of the Israeli bombings has widened. "A lot of the people are from Tyre, and we know some of them," she said of the bodies.

.

But leyla, don't you think the mythological homeland of the jews is worth it? They're god's chosen people, haven't you heard?

[DHodges]

One thing (of many, no doubt) that I don't understand in this conflict is the relationship between Hezbollah and the Lebanese government - before the war with Isreal, I mean. I've seen references of it acting as a "state within a state", running hospitals and so on. I just have a hard time imagining how that would work.

Is the government of Lebanon that weak? Do governments just act that differently in that part of the world?

[Cory Duchesne]

Milli wrote:

Actually, man will always be in conflict with himself, as long as he has any regard whatsoever for his fellow man, or as long as he weighs the long term value of cooperative relationships vs. the short term value of stabbing everyone in the back.

So Milli, I take it that one of your ideals is not being in conflict with yourself?

And you plan on accomplishing this, or have accompished this by having no regard for your fellow man?

[millipodium]

Milli wrote:

Actually, man will always be in conflict with himself, as long as he has any regard whatsoever for his fellow man, or as long as he weighs the long term value of cooperative relationships vs. the short term value of stabbing everyone in the back.

So Milli, I take it that one of your ideals is not being in conflict with yourself?

From where did you draw this conclusion? It is not correct.

And you plan on accomplishing this, or have accompished this by having no regard for your fellow man?

Your premise is wrong, making this statement even more foolish.

[Cory Duchesne]

Ok milli, let me try again....


Milli wrote:

Actually, man will always be in conflict with himself, as long as he has any regard whatsoever for his fellow man, or as long as he weighs the long term value of cooperative relationships vs. the short term value of stabbing everyone in the back.

So I take it that one of your ideals is to have man 'always in conflict with himself'?

[millipodium]

Ok milli, let me try again....


Milli wrote:

Actually, man will always be in conflict with himself, as long as he has any regard whatsoever for his fellow man, or as long as he weighs the long term value of cooperative relationships vs. the short term value of stabbing everyone in the back.

So I take it that one of your ideals is to have man 'always in conflict with himself'?

YEs. We all should weigh our personal desires against standards of concern and responsibility for others. And we should weigh our personal desires against concern and responsibility for ourselves, because some choices may be detrimental to our future well being. This is called adulthood, basic morality, and planning. Look into it.

[Cory Duchesne]

Cory: So I take it that one of your ideals is to have man 'always in conflict with himself'?

Milli: Yes. We all should weigh our personal desires against standards of concern and responsibility for others. And we should weigh our personal desires against concern and responsibility for ourselves, because some choices may be detrimental to our future well being. This is called adulthood, basic morality, and planning. Look into it.

So you don’t think man would be in conflict if he, instead of considering the feelings of others, simply did whatever he wanted and just ‘let loose’?

I think that is very naïve of you.

I think basic morality, planning and being considerate to others is mans response to the much greater conflict that exists for him if he does not consider his actions carefully, consider the feeling of others and make intelligent plans.

[millipodium]

Cory: So I take it that one of your ideals is to have man 'always in conflict with himself'?

Milli: Yes. We all should weigh our personal desires against standards of concern and responsibility for others. And we should weigh our personal desires against concern and responsibility for ourselves, because some choices may be detrimental to our future well being. This is called adulthood, basic morality, and planning. Look into it.

So you don’t think man would be in conflict if he, instead of considering the feelings of others, simply did whatever he wanted and just ‘let loose’?

I think that is very naïve of you.

Well. He would come into conflict with others soon enough if he didn't moderate his selfishness based on some form of morality or social contract. And he may come to regret some of these decisions if they effected his future existence. Moderating ourselves this way is called living in a civlized society. You should research that as well.

I think basic morality, planning and being considerate to others is mans response to the much greater conflict that exists for him if he does not consider his actions carefully, consider the feeling of others and make intelligent plans.

Right. It's a response to getting his ass beaten and running out of winter grain. It's called "learning".

[Cory Duchesne]

Cory: So you don’t think man would be in conflict if he, instead of considering the feelings of others, simply did whatever he wanted and just ‘let loose’?

Milli: Well. He would come into conflict with others soon enough if he didn't moderate his selfishness based on some form of morality or social contract. And he may come to regret some of these decisions if they effected his future existence. Moderating ourselves this way is called living in a civlized society. You should research that as well.

I'm just curious, where are you from Milli? What country?

Cory: I think basic morality, planning and being considerate to others is mans response to the much greater conflict that exists for him if he does not consider his actions carefully, consider the feeling of others and make intelligent plans.

Milli: Right. It's a response to getting his ass beaten and running out of winter grain. It's called "learning".

So 'learning', as you use the term, is really about avoiding greater conflict, in order to achieve the more favorable situation of less conflict?

[millipodium]

Cory: So you don’t think man would be in conflict if he, instead of considering the feelings of others, simply did whatever he wanted and just ‘let loose’?

Milli: Well. He would come into conflict with others soon enough if he didn't moderate his selfishness based on some form of morality or social contract. And he may come to regret some of these decisions if they effected his future existence. Moderating ourselves this way is called living in a civlized society. You should research that as well.

I'm just curious, where are you from Milli? What country?

Cory: I think basic morality, planning and being considerate to others is mans response to the much greater conflict that exists for him if he does not consider his actions carefully, consider the feeling of others and make intelligent plans.

Milli: Right. It's a response to getting his ass beaten and running out of winter grain. It's called "learning".

So 'learning', as you use the term, is really about avoiding greater conflict, in order to achieve the more favorable situation of less conflict?

I'm a merkun!

I'd say less conflict is a favorable by-product of knowing stuff. Yes. People with no conflict within themselves are probably psychopathic in some way.

[millipodium]

Are you from Ireland, corey patrick?

Corrry Patrrrrrick from coonty corrrrrruk.

[Cory Duchesne]

Milli wrote:

I'd say less conflict is a favorable by-product of knowing stuff. Yes. People with no conflict within themselves are probably psychopathic in some way.

What is it that motivates people to know-stuff?

Personally, I would say it is both fear of injury and sympathy.

Would you agree that the act of learning and being less selfish is driven by fear and sympathy?

Are you from Ireland, corey patrick?
Corrry Patrrrrrick from coonty corrrrrruk.

Nope, not Ireland.

I'm from Nova Scotia, Canada.

Merkum?

I'm guessing that's Germany?

[MKFaizi]

Gregory Shantz wrote:

I found this bit in some of Dave Sim's writings which sheds some light on things:

Thanks for that, Greg.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

David Hodges wrote:

One thing (of many, no doubt) that I don't understand in this conflict is the relationship between Hezbollah and the Lebanese government - before the war with Isreal, I mean. I've seen references of it acting as a "state within a state", running hospitals and so on. I just have a hard time imagining how that would work.

Is the government of Lebanon that weak? Do governments just act that differently in that part of the world?

The government of Lebanon is that weak.

Faizi