AI & Humans

[Relentless707]

While here at work in my lovely job of data input, I have been thinking on Turings test to see if people can tell the difference between an AI and a Human being..

What I ask is, in relation to this forum and so on, Could an AI progress to the stage where it can think for itself as such like a human can via a conscience ? And would it be able to find the ultimate truth or absolution since, as humans were fickle due to emotions playing a large role within our perception of events rather than logic, whereas a machine works solely upon logic, so from that could it not find the ultimate truth due to its logic ? provided we get to the stage of making an AI so advanced that is.

[DHodges]

Could an AI progress to the stage where it can think for itself as such like a human can via a conscience ?

I think the answer to this question will be a lot clearer 20 or 30 years from now.
In fact, it might be pretty obvious then.

[Relentless707]

Maybe so, but would a machine be capable of pure logic which most here aspire to have and from that be enlightened ? Thats what is an interesting concept in my eyes.

[Tomas]

Never! ... will there be machines with logic.

(You really otta) - Go camping (with) the stars.
Wasting time concerned the machine. The welcoming committee left a long time ago.

Been there, done that.


Tomas

[Relentless707]

(You really otta) - Go camping (with) the stars.
Wasting time concerned the machine. The welcoming committee left a long time ago.

Been there, done that.

Welcoming committee ? care to elaborate ?

Instead of explaining why you believe a machine will not be capable of self thought/learning/critique you just put no not possible.. Why exactly ?

I dont mind people arguing any point so long as its explained, just saying yes/no/dont know its a bit vague to say the least

[MrRemarkable]

WEll, I want to share my experience while playing a computer pc game called Quake 3 ! It's a pretty hard gore blood demon fighiting kinda shooting game. In some maps, you see a tongue of dragon or the pentagram the evil symbol or sounds like beast! or fresh meat! It's kinda like serious Sam game if anyone has ever played.
Anyway I was playing single player mode against computer AIs.
AIs are just computer programs working with some intelligence rihgt? They are not wholly independent beings and can't be more thatn just mechanical AIs run by codes and electricity.
But don't be shocked ! THesse AIs read your mind just as those public people on multiplayer...
They talk to each other encouraging and discoraging words...
and even to me Sometimes itgets spooky.
AFter I felt some disgust from keeping looking at pentagram signs, some AI said "Be scared very scared!" And One said immidiately, "Partiallyasian(my id), you are allright! You just have to think around it! " I mean those words are right words at right time... Also some include, "(my id) You been taking lessons i can see)
After I have won the match "Next time, le;t s hammer on partiallyasian(my id)"
or some thing like
"Paritallyasian(my id) you are only making me stronger"
Does the Ai mean my subconscious of wanting to ignore AI's presence made it say "You are only making my present being stronger?"
AFter I erased the game because of feeling some shit , I reinstlled it later and AI said something like
"THis shit should not repeat" or something I forgot
Anyway I erased that game again feelin somewhat spooky...
;>

[MrRemarkable]

WEll, I want to share my experience while playing a computer pc game called Quake 3 ! It's a pretty hard gore blood demon fighiting kinda shooting game. In some maps, you see a tongue of dragon or the pentagram the evil symbol or sounds like beast! or fresh meat! It's kinda like serious Sam game if anyone has ever played.
Anyway I was playing single player mode against computer AIs.
AIs are just computer programs working with some intelligence rihgt? They are not wholly independent beings and can't be more thatn just mechanical AIs run by codes and electricity.
But don't be shocked ! THesse AIs read your mind just as those public people on multiplayer...
They talk to each other encouraging and discoraging words...
and even to me Sometimes itgets spooky.
AFter I felt some disgust from keeping looking at pentagram signs, some AI said "Be scared very scared!" And One said immidiately, "Partiallyasian(my id), you are allright! You just have to think around it! " I mean those words are right words at right time... Also some include, "(my id) You been taking lessons i can see)
After I have won the match "Next time, le;t s hammer on partiallyasian(my id)"
or some thing like
"Paritallyasian(my id) you are only making me stronger"
Does the Ai mean my subconscious of wanting to ignore AI's presence made it say "You are only making my present being stronger?"
AFter I erased the game because of feeling some shit , I reinstlled it later and AI said something like
"THis shit should not repeat" or something I forgot
Anyway I erased that game again feelin somewhat spooky...
;>

[MrRemarkable]

WEll, I want to share my experience while playing a computer pc game called Quake 3 ! It's a pretty hard gore blood demon fighiting kinda shooting game. In some maps, you see a tongue of dragon or the pentagram the evil symbol or sounds like beast! or fresh meat! It's kinda like serious Sam game if anyone has ever played.
Anyway I was playing single player mode against computer AIs.
AIs are just computer programs working with some intelligence rihgt? They are not wholly independent beings and can't be more thatn just mechanical AIs run by codes and electricity.
But don't be shocked ! THesse AIs read your mind just as those public people on multiplayer...
They talk to each other encouraging and discoraging words...
and even to me Sometimes itgets spooky.
AFter I felt some disgust from keeping looking at pentagram signs, some AI said "Be scared very scared!" And One said immidiately, "Partiallyasian(my id), you are allright! You just have to think around it! " I mean those words are right words at right time... Also some include, "(my id) You been taking lessons i can see)
After I have won the match "Next time, le;t s hammer on partiallyasian(my id)"
or some thing like
"Paritallyasian(my id) you are only making me stronger"
Does the Ai mean my subconscious of wanting to ignore AI's presence made it say "You are only making my present being stronger?"
AFter I erased the game because of feeling some shit , I reinstlled it later and AI said something like
"THis shit should not repeat" or something I forgot
Anyway I erased that game again feelin somewhat spooky...
;>

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Anyway I erased that game again feelin somewhat spooky...
;>

You sound a tad paranoid, MrRemarkable :). IT sounds like clever game design, with the AI saying the things most likely appropriate at certain moments, since most game players go through the same situations, again and again. The designers know this by now, after hundreds of testers went through it and older generations of games, and can guess the reactions of players.

In the 80's I remember having long conversations with an AI in my home computer. Clever designed to sound as if it was really human like by printing the right words at the right time in a conversation, triggered by keywords and so on.

Simulation can be better than the 'real thing'. What we think is 'real' in the sense of spontantious is often a matter of stimulation, reaction, triggers.... What is the wild card?

Come to think of it, game characters are almost human in that aspect. The game designers are then politicians, religious leaders and media experts.

Just be more consciousness of the all too human habit to interpret events around you as being so personalized, as being targeted at you, instead based on statistics, social engineering, coincidence and other larger scale events.

[MrRemarkable]

yeah I think I might have been a little too paranoid since the game itself was pretty hellish and bloody.
thanks for your points

[millipodium]

I think if we ever made machines that must look after their own needs, and are taught to obtain things and behaviors from other entities in their environment, something similar to emotion might evolve. An inexplicable need to perform an activity, or get attention from one who possesses needed supplies, will be programmed, and it will be operationally equivalent to emotion, but we won't call it that. Just like in animal studies we call loving your mom, IMPRINTING and the like.

[Shade]

Before anyone decides wether or not they believe that AI can ,or can't, think(process) in a logical manner, I would like one of you to explain to me exactly what logic is. No dictionary defenitions, they are idiots. Everything everywhere, that Humans know about, is completely subject to emotion. Everything we see, smell, hear, taste, and touch. No matter what we do, we evolved into emotional beings, because emotion makes us more efficient. We cannot escape the cold hands of Emotion. Even as i write this, as logically thinking as is possible for one who just came through puberty, I feel remorse that there is not a single fact in this world.
That very FEELING guides me to show you all that even logic is completely and wholly, based on emotion. Everyone can think of a situation in their past where emotion clouded their thinking, now look at any one thing that has happened to you, and think how emotion clcaused you to do what you did (you might have to think very far back). For some situations this is a considerably difficult thing to do. So.... if a computer could think in a logical manner, (therefore it must have emotion?)
It would not be logic, it would be different than anything we have encountered before. Any human would be able to tell the difference between a computer and a person, simply because, humans cannot express through machinery, the concept of emotion, and logic. These two things would clash completely within a computer, while they flourish within a human.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Everything everywhere, that Humans know about, is completely subject to emotion. Everything we see, smell, hear, taste, and touch. No matter what we do, we evolved into emotional beings, because emotion makes us more efficient.

Okay, but do you see degrees of emotions at work? Writing down a mathematical formula is just as 'emotional' as bashing someone's brains? Without a bit of distinction applied, everything blurs out and nothing can be clearly seen anymore.

I feel remorse that there is not a single fact in this world.

Maybe you're finding comfort in that you have one fact still standing: that there's not a single fact?

That very FEELING guides me to show you all that even logic is completely and wholly, based on emotion.

Be careful with your definitions now. What exactly is an 'emotion' or 'feeling', and then compare it with how you define 'logic' or 'reason'. Because the moment you start to define something broadly enough you can squeeze anything into it.

Your statement is not far from what a mainstream researcher like Antonio Damasio writes about it though.

Everyone can think of a situation in their past where emotion clouded their thinking, now look at any one thing that has happened to you, and think how emotion caused you to do what you did

How can emotion 'cloud' thinking if this thinking itself is based on emotion? Or is there unclouded thinking possible, do you maintain a pure form of thought without logic or emotions involved? If not, how can thinking be said to cloud at all? Since the clouding seems here defined as a thought itself.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Before anyone decides wether or not they believe that AI can, or can't, think (process) in a logical manner, I would like one of you to explain to me exactly what logic is.

Logic is based on distinction or identification. The moment identification is made we have a split, for example A, and what it's not: the opposite not A.

This primal step is logic and all further logic starts here and could be derived from it. Consciousness functions through this dualistic principle.

[Shade]

I realize that when i said "clouded your thinking" it was a bad choice of words, and i am glad for the correction.

[Shade]

I would like an example of an
A and what it is not.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

This discussion would be way easier if you would start providing an example of something that is not a form of A, and therefore not having some counterpart in what it's not (lets call it B).

How could you distinguish anything in particular at all without conforming to this principle? You tell me.

[Shade]

I do understand that everything has it's counterpart.
But with me when i hear the word "critique" i think of something other than you do. I realize that this does not step into the deeper realm of logic but i do not fully understand the implications of my theory on the way I answer a question like yours.

[Shade]

I didnt answer your question
Counterparts are subject to emotion in basic terms

[millipodium]

Counterparts are subject to emotion in basic terms

I want to write this large on a billboard and watch the cars collide as driver after driver has a nearly incapacitating "what the fuck does that mean?" moment.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I didnt answer your question
Counterparts are subject to emotion in basic terms

Maybe you could tell me how you would define emotion? I mean, is it the fabric of the universe? Does it have a cause? How could emotion detect emotion? If it can, aren't you equalling the property often called awareness with emotion?

[Tharan]

As far as AI is concerned, why is it necessary to define emotion? In creating emotional behavior to the extent that it is indestiguishable between artificial and an actual human instance is really not that difficult. The argument of "is it real" is really a red herring. As a programmer, I would leave it to the experiencer to define emotion.

For example, you may assume that I am not in fact a computer program, but rather a human sitting at my keyboard typing. But how do you know that? What clues in my personality (there are only going to be a handful at most) lead you to believe that these words are scripted by an organic consciousness versus an inorganic consciousness?

My personality, which tends toward aggressiveness and might even be triggered by certain signals, can easily be programmed and simulated. Perhaps my writing is deeper on certain subjects, but that is not true of ALL organic writers. In fact there is such a wide variability between organic composer's abilities, that even with the most rudimentary simulators and a slice of organic comparitors, you will find some organics difficult to distinguish even now.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

As far as AI is concerned, why is it necessary to define emotion?

Because the suggestion was made by Shade that in some way emotion underlies reason and logic. If this would be true, and the intelligence in AI is to be defined as reasonable and logical, some form of emotion might have to be part of it. For this to make sense we have to be clear on what we think emotion is in the human behavior we want in artificial form.

In creating emotional behavior to the extent that it is indestiguishable between artificial and an actual human instance is really not that difficult. The argument of "is it real" is really a red herring. As a programmer, I would leave it to the experiencer to define emotion.

All kinds of behavior are easily simulated. Ask any human :) But AI is not about only simulation (though many attempts nowadays are), it's about creating a framework for processes to arise spontaniously, self-organizing that can for example make decisions in an intelligent manner, that is: weighing factors, finding creative solutions without help, and also learning abilities and communicative qualities.

When you do some exam at an university you're tested to see if your understand the matter, and not copy it from a sheet hidden somewhere. Trick or open questions come to mind.

For example, you may assume that I am not in fact a computer program, but rather a human sitting at my keyboard typing. But how do you know that? What clues in my personality (there are only going to be a handful at most) lead you to believe that these words are scripted by an organic consciousness versus an inorganic consciousness?

I wouldn't care about organic vs inorganic too much, unless I was trying to date you. But the question you ask is formalized as the Turing test since the 1950's. A continuation of that might be the Moravec Test, proposing that human identity is essentially an informational pattern rather than an embodied set of actions. It would need to extract human consciousness and download it into a computer to prove it though.

My personality, which tends toward aggressiveness and might even be triggered by certain signals, can easily be programmed and simulated.

Yes, but simulation is always linked to some media. Are you talking about text only, images, smell, touch or complete neurological simulation of 'presence'.

To simulate 'everything' about a person might need a simulation of 'everything' that defines a person which might include lots of environmental factors. A human is not an island. Simulation works in my opinion best if only a limited subset of human qualities is targeted.