Masanobu Fukuoka

[sschaula]

I was reading one of Cory's posts on the main forum and it was recommended to check out Masanobu Fukuoka. Cory holds him with high regard. So I checked out this website on his ideas about farming...

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC14/Fukuoka.htm

It was pretty interesting. I've found this to be true about nature as well, but his speech on the subject is very approachable. I didn't realize that you could grow vegetables in the desert. Interesting stuff.

In the midst of writing this post I also looked at this article: http://www.seedballs.com/2seedpa.html

[MKFaizi]

I don't get one thing immediately. He came to the US. How did he get here if he is from somewhere in Asia or Africa?

He claims that the first time he took a plane was when he flew to Boston.

I find that hard to believe. If I doubt that he never flew in an airplane until he went to Boston, I am doubtful of the rest of his stuff.

Faizi

[sschaula]

Do you think he took a ship?

[MKFaizi]

Gut level, I don't believe him.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

He could have taken ships. Probably did take a few ships. Probably took a few airplanes, too.

Gut level, I don't believe him. If growing crops in deserts was that easy, people would be growing crops in deserts. According to him, it is easy to do.

Faizi

[LooF]

people seem to make easy things look harder

[sschaula]

I think you're right, Marsha. It seems as if he said, "Just let Nature do it, all you have to do is spread seeds". Reading some more of his articles, I found that it's more complicated than that. It also seems as if he's saying to let weeds grow, because it's nature doing its thing. Later on, he goes on to say he helped these guys grow in a barren field by destroying foxglove (I think) weeds...as they were stopping the growth of anything else.

Before believing all of his simple ideas, I'd like to get one of his books and try out what he says.

I'll probably try it in one of the forests near Sugarloaf mountain in Michigan, where I'll be going to school, since I don't have a house of my own, and put seeds there.

[Cory Duchesne]

Marsha: I don't get one thing immediately. He came to the US. How did he get here if he is from somewhere in Asia or Africa?

He's actually from Japan. Having access to the US via plane would not be a problem. My sister has taught in Japan, and she took a plane.

I dont think he's neccesary a 'perfect' man - but, judging from the way he lived his life, and judging from the quality of his thought in books, and also judging from how he has apparently effected the lives of others - - I would say he is a very good man, perhaps a great man.

Area's where fukuoka is lacking, people like Bill Mollison, Emilia Hazelip and David Holmgren compensate (and vice versa). Interestingly enough, Bill Mollison spent a great deal of time studying at Fukuoka's farm before going on to write his first book, which mentions Fukuoka extensively. Bill Molison has a much more western approach and avoids (due to australian fishermen upbringing) Fukuoka's tendency to act like the almost stereotypically simple wise man. (i dont think he purposely 'acts' like - I just think he had lived such a simple ascetic existence, and he was so interested in religions and philosophy - that his character naturally assumed that shape). Mollison went on to work with David Holmgren (who has a great deal to offer, if not the most to offer in the form of books).

Emilia Hazelip was a student to both Fukuoka and Mollison - and she is a great person to listen to if you are interested in being more integrated in your day to day living.

Anyways, it's not important to praise, idolize and celebrate particular individuals, but rather, its important seeing how each individual is part of a greater phenomenon. Aknowledging the newness and distinctness of a recent phenomenon as the whole that it is, rather than becoming blinded by a particuler individual comprising the phenomenon is exteremely important. However, it doesnt hurt to notice the source of a great phenomenon - (M. fukuoka)

[sschaula]

Are those other people you mention philosophers, or farmers? I had the impression that Fukuoka was primarily a philosopher, from your post with David.

[Cory Duchesne]

Schaula - Are those other people you mention philosophers, or farmers? I had the impression that Fukuoka was primarily a philosopher, from your post with David.

Fukuoka began as a mere philosopher/scientist, thinker, theorist, however, he had a supreme awakening born out of an intense amount of scientific research in labratories and prolonged and protracted observation of nature outside the lab. His intense study kept him up all hours of the night, eventually leading to an illness - hospitializing him - he claims when he was in the hospital during this time, he felt very close to death (perhaps due to how alone and weak he had been) and when he recovered his health, he had, while sitting in an old forgotten field of wild rice, a spontaneous understanding of nature, and thus a profound understanding of the vanities and fears of man. He applied his understanding to the farmers life. You can tell by his writings that he has enormous respect for a farmers life close to nature, however he was very much a philosopher. He feels (as do I) that the 'good' farmer and the good philosopher, must both be very minimal, sharp, physically sensitive, and content with anonyminity. Therefore, he seems to suggest, as do I, that his approach to farming is best suited for people longing for wholeness, and to be whole one must be very close to not having delusions, if not, totally delusion free. What better way to free your mind from delusions than to study, learn and live off of the ways of nature?

As for whether or not the rest of them I mentioned are philosophers or famers, well - again this comes down to understanding the importance of seeing oneself as either a 'whole' human being, a being longing and working toward wholeness, or a being smug and unaware of the implications and misery that his fragmenation is causing himself and others. The others I mentiond, are simply good examples of 'whole' human beings. Whole human beings are those who are able to live innovatively in a way that isnt dependent upon the corrupt system that the typical philosopher rails against.

The whole human being, who is quite philosophical (meaning: they are hardly deluded and speak and live quite rationally, helpfully and articulatly) establishes a way of living that is beyond the superficially intelligent snide quips of those who proudly call themselves philosophers but who fail to establish a day to day living that isnt dependent upon the way of life that they vainly criticize.

This is an awesome interview, http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC28/Mollison.htm and a perfect example of why fukuoka must be appreciated for his relationship to those he has influenced, rather than just soley as an individual.

[sschaula]

I think Fukuoka's awakening was a good one, but not the final one in my opinion. There are deeper awakenings, that shake EVERYTHING. David Quinn's "Wisdom of the Infinite" points to it...awakening to emptiness and living with that truth. Just wanted to mention this, as deeper awakenings are what my idea of philosophy is about.

I think Fukuoka's a great person, though. I'm gonna research those other people you mentioned tonight. Thanks.

[sschaula]

That was a pretty good interview. I liked this quote: "If you're a simple person today, and want to live simply, that is awfully seditious. And to advise people to live simply is more seditious still."

Still checking out the others...

[MKFaizi]

Still smells like a scheister to me. Reeks of used car salesman.

I am not sarcastic and I am not trying to be mean.

Faizi

[sschaula]

Although I don't know exactly what a scheister is, I agree with you that he seems like a used car salesman.

[MKFaizi]

A shyster is a con-artist. He will rip you off.

Faizi

[Cory Duchesne]

I think there is a great deal to get out of the people I mentioned. But, yes Marsha, I'll admit - I think Fukuoka and Bill Mollison are the most charismatic of the back to the land movement - and I think this is because they both have a tendency to make it seem like they can offer you a utopian way of life that is 'Labour free'. Perhaps they do this because they are unconsciously trying to sell their books and seduce people into investigating the truth of what they are saying. This is not totally bad - - if they were doing this, yet promising only an enlightened mind, they would just be typical guru's. but they are significant in that they are urging people to discover a new lively hood - and they are providing valuable information to help anyone interested.

I've been using applying the fukuokian and permaculture approach to my life, and, 'at times' it certainly involves hard work - but its the sort of work that demmands one to be very objective, inovative - it demmands that you make use of every little thing. It demmands that you see solutions in problems. It is great work. There is freedom in working towards perfection. And perfection is not so much the individual, but the individuals relationship to life. Really, there is no individual. there is only a quality of relationship. There is great freedom in being aware that you are taking the steps toward a higher quality of relationship, of being. And fukuoka is right in that, each day of natural farming, you should find yourself doing less and less. However, 'do nothing' farming is misleading if you are unaware of how fukuoka expresses the rest of his philosophy. He does express his awareness of how it is impossible to do nothing in the literal sense. When he says 'do nothing', he is pointing to somthing much deeper, and it truly demmands that you study nature and philosophy deeply to understand what he means.

Scott, I dont know who is more awakend Quinn or Fukuoka, but I can assure you each of them is worthless unless they are a part of a greater whole that includes each other. Each of them is worthless without the other. I feel confident that awakenning can happen on a much wider scale for future humans only through recognizing the importance of natural agriculture and permaculture. We are slaves to stupidity and we need to be more independent and intelligent in how we earn our liveilhood, in how we survive. Solway urging humans to conquer space is stupid when you consider how humans can't even live righly on earth.

I think fukuoka had a strong satori in his twenties and from there, worked toward being the farmer his awakening suggested he could be.

If we are human beings who are longing for wholeness and freedom, some of what man has done in the past 100 years (and all of history) should be aknowledged as significant. If we allow ourselves to become so idealistic that we don't allow ourselves to be receptive to anything other than those who we hold in an exageratededly high regard (perhaps because we hold ourselves with exageratededly high regard) then we shall be, as chang tzu put it: "lice on the pig". We might end up as lice who vainly criticize the pig who we depend upon for our survival.

What i've noticed about QRS is the tendency to not aknowledge contemporary revolutionaries, and only dwell on those who have long been gone. Perhaps they do this to create an imaginary world where they are the greatest men that the last 100 years has produced. there are indeed other great men that the last 100 years has produced, who emphasize and point to the significane of what QRS do not.

This is a good thing. Some people on this forum, QRS, and others - offer what is good. But worthless unless it is connected to the good that others have offered. The whole of humanities contribuition should be what is valued. The neurotic desire for perfection creates an idealistic mind that loses 'what is' and gets absorbed in a fragment of what is.

[sschaula]

I've been using applying the fukuokian and permaculture approach to my life, and, 'at times' it certainly involves hard work - but its the sort of work that demmands one to be very objective, inovative - it demmands that you make use of every little thing. It demmands that you see solutions in problems. It is great work. There is freedom in working towards perfection. And perfection is not so much the individual, but the individuals relationship to life. Really, there is no individual. there is only a quality of relationship. There is great freedom in being aware that you are taking the steps toward a higher quality of relationship, of being.

How have you been applying fukuokian and permaculture approaches to your life?

And fukuoka is right in that, each day of natural farming, you should find yourself doing less and less. However, 'do nothing' farming is misleading if you are unaware of how fukuoka expresses the rest of his philosophy. He does express his awareness of how it is impossible to do nothing in the literal sense. When he says 'do nothing', he is pointing to somthing much deeper, and it truly demmands that you study nature and philosophy deeply to understand what he means.

Can you put what he means in words? I think I could understand it. I just don't like it when things seemingly can't be communicated. I think anything that exists can be communicated in one way or another. Sometimes it takes some creativity.

Scott, I dont know who is more awakend Quinn or Fukuoka, but I can assure you each of them is worthless unless they are a part of a greater whole that includes each other.

They're definitely "worthless", unless they help you realize more of the truth of reality. Then they're worthwhile to you. But it's only the truth of reality that's worthwhile. The messenger isn't important.

Each of them is worthless without the other. I feel confident that awakenning can happen on a much wider scale for future humans only through recognizing the importance of natural agriculture and permaculture. We are slaves to stupidity and we need to be more independent and intelligent in how we earn our liveilhood, in how we survive. Solway urging humans to conquer space is stupid when you consider how humans can't even live righly on earth.

Being unenlightened is probably the main reason why human beings are stupid. Seeking to rid yourself of stupidity first, without the enlightenment, may work. I doubt it will, though. Wisdom seems to take care of everything.

If we are human beings who are longing for wholeness and freedom, some of what man has done in the past 100 years (and all of history) should be aknowledged as significant. If we allow ourselves to become so idealistic that we don't allow ourselves to be receptive to anything other than those who we hold in an exageratededly high regard (perhaps because we hold ourselves with exageratededly high regard) then we shall be, as chang tzu put it: "lice on the pig". We might end up as lice who vainly criticize the pig who we depend upon for our survival.

What i've noticed about QRS is the tendency to not aknowledge contemporary revolutionaries, and only dwell on those who have long been gone. Perhaps they do this to create an imaginary world where they are the greatest men that the last 100 years has produced. there are indeed other great men that the last 100 years has produced, who emphasize and point to the significane of what QRS do not.

There's a lot of people that put words in the mouths of QRS. I don't know exactly what they think, and I don't care. David wrote a good book, Kevin influenced him and wrote another good book, and Dan contributed to this site (I don't know if he wrote a book). I don't know if they acknowledge thinking people in modern times. I don't know of anyone to suggest to them, in order for them to acknowledge. I don't know if it'd be better if they acknowledged someone from today, instead of only acknowledging people from yesterday.

I do know that what stands, from QRS and on this website, is a good source of wisdom. I don't know if they want to be thought of as the only enlightened people of this day. I don't care to psychoanalyze them. All I know of them is that they're human beings who are dedicated to philosophy....and they live in Australia. I don't see a need to know more. Like I said before, the messenger is not important. I think the message and what you and I do with it IS important.

This is a good thing. Some people on this forum, QRS, and others - offer what is good. But worthless unless it is connected to the good that others have offered. The whole of humanities contribuition should be what is valued. The neurotic desire for perfection creates an idealistic mind that loses 'what is' and gets absorbed in a fragment of what is.

I don't know. For what end should the whole of humanities contribution be what is valued? For the sake of human kind? That's nice, but it's still based in delusion.

What goes up must come down. Human kind will end one day. What begins must end. There will always be challenges in our lives. There will always be ways to improve and make our existence better. This will end, though. Nature survives beyond us...the truth is eternal.

Thus, I don't seek utopia, but I seek wisdom. As I said before, wisdom seems to accomplish all things...and I believe seeking wisdom brings about utopia. Not being interested in humanitarian ideas. Farming is one aspect of life...the truth is what created farming, though.

You're right that the desire for perfection is neurotic. Like perfection of living, through permaculture. I don't think that seeking perfect enlightenment is the same, though. It's the sanest thing to do.[/i]

[Cory Duchesne]

How have you been applying fukuokian and permaculture approaches to your life?

I began by approaching my dull, compacted and nutritionally depleted back yard by laying down large mats of hay (surplus grown for horses is dirt cheap, if not free, best if rotted) combined with whatever other organic material you can find - leaves, straw, grass clippings, rotten logs, dinner scraps that would normally get thrown in the compost or garbage (avoid using (or even eating) meat – because of course it stinks, and harvesting animals for the gratification of eating them creates an enormous amount of labor and is thus stupid)

After 1 year, the hay has begun to merge into the soil via decomposition. If you put your finger through the hay you can feel the soil is much looser and moist.

The greater moister level is established simply because matted and decomposing organic material retains moisture very well. That, and there is also a higher number of worms and microorganisms summoned by the surplus of organic material.

(the excrement of worms produce 6times the beneficial bacteria that they consume)

The burrowing and excrement of worms and microorganisms (whose intricate colonies and borrowing becomes otherwise destroyed by the idiocy of plowing) vastly improves soil and moisture retention.

In areas that I do not makes gardens covered with hay, I grow hay (about 70%) and white and red clover (30%). The clover gives back to soil what the hay takes (nitrogen mainly).

And the hay is continuously used to add to and strengthen the garden.

When the hay gets too long, I will cut it with a Scythe and use it by putting it into/onto the gardens.

Big seeds like squash, peas, beans, radishes, the flower nastrinium, sunflowers, potatoes, and corn all have symbiotic relationships with each other and thus will support each others growth, so they should be grown together - in a disorganized, chaotic, natural fashion. They also can be, and might as well be sown underneath the hay and will break through on their own accord.

Assuming you live in a climate that recieves rain on a fairly balanced basis, no watering is necessary if you have about a 6inch layer of material always decomposing (eventually, when your soil is advanced enough, the only material that needs to be above the soil, is weeds, grass, and the vegetables themselves.)

The amount of excess vegetable matter that results from your vegetables contains and puts back more nutrients into the soil than was taken out. Weeds stay in check because the density of vegetable foliage that results from your first crop, will function to partly supresses the weeds interfering with the next crop. Weeds should be supressed, not torn out because the roots of all-vegetation are designed to slough off and feed micro-organisms which improve your soil and thus your vegetables. The goal is not to supress all weeds, just however many you can with the ammount of surplus material that is allotted to you.

So eventually, as your soil becomes more rich with energy, the layer of material sitting atop the soil should be allowed to become fairly thin.

But when you first start, it is wise to put the extra hard work into establishing about a 6-inch layer of organic material. But who knows what you could get away with.

Planting fruit and nut trees is something that I will be doing this week.

Oh yeah, I live with my parents and am using their backyard to do this. It’s amazing how opposed they were to my interest in this.

Their reaction to me using their property for gardening was much like their reaction to my interest in philosophy. It gives them the impression that I have no ambition for getting myself a woman and making money.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you put what Fukuoka means in words? I think I could understand it. I just don't like it when things seemingly can't be communicated. I think anything that exists can be communicated in one way or another. Sometimes it takes some creativity.

Well, aside from what I communicated above, and aside from what you read from the Bill Mollison interview, here are some selected excerpts from Fukuoka’s most renown book - ‘The One-Straw Revolution’:

“I could see that all the concepts to which I had been clinging, the very notion of existence itself, were empty fabrications. My spirit became light and clear. I was dancing wildly for joy. I could hear the small birds chirping in the trees, and see the distant waves glistening in the rising sun. The leaves danced green and sparkling. I felt that this was truly heaven on earth. Everything that had possessed me, all the agonies, disappeared like dreams and illusions, and something one might call ‘true nature’ stood revealed.”

“In caring for a quarter-acre field, one or two people can do all the work of growing rice and winter grain in a matter of a few days. If seems unlikely that there could be a simpler way of raising grain. This method completely contradicts modern agricultural techniques. It throws scientific knowledge and traditional farming know-how right out the window. With this kind of farming, which uses no machines, no prepared fertilizer and no chemicals; it is possible to attain a harvest equal to or greater than that of the average Japanese farm.”

“To grow crops in an unplowed field may seem at first a regression to primitive agriculture, but over the years this method has been shown in university laboratories and agricultural testing centers across the country to be the most simple, efficient and up-to-date method of all.”

“Man’s mischief is what causes weak plants. Nature, left alone, is in perfect balance. Harmful insects and plant diseases are always present, but do not occur in nature to an extent, which requires the use of poisonous chemicals.”

“Before researchers become researchers, they should become philosophers. Research wanders about aimlessly, each researcher seeing just one part of the infinite array of natural factors, which affect harvest yields. Furthermore, these natural factors change from place to place and from year to year.”

“It is the same with the scientist. He pours over books night and day, straining his eyes and becoming nearsighted, and if you wonder what on earth he has been working on all that time – it is to become the inventor of eyeglasses to correct nearsightedness”

“Lao Tzu, the Taoist sage says that a whole decent life can be lived in a small village. Bodhidharma, the founder of Zen, spent nine years living in a cave without bustling about. To be worried about making money, expanding, developing, and growing cash crops is not the way of the natural farmer. Natural farming goes nowhere and seeks no victory, it is non-active, a methodless method, a non-opposing state of mind where all duality ends. When it is understood that one loses joy and happiness in the attempt to possess them, then the essence of natural farming will be realized. The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings.”

Scott: Being unenlightened is probably the main reason why human beings are stupid.

Cory: Yes, to be stupid is to be un-enlightened, however, one must realize wisdom is a quality of action that is born out of awareness. Indigenous primitive cultures were not necessary comprised of supremely enlightened beings, but most cultures managed to sustain themselves, due to their holistic awareness of the ways nature and physiological sensitivity to energy and sensation, for thousands of years without any major problems.

Many explorers who first arrived in new lands were puzzled by how the primitives were not toiling and slaving. The more intelligent and introspective explorers would wonder with perhaps a bit of admiration: how did they survive without depending upon a large population working and toiling miserably?

Before long, the explorers who originally came in search of the garden of Eden (ironically) failed to recognize the primitives as significantly wiser and thus proceeded to manipulate them, spread disease, germs, guns, alcohol, sugar. White man hardly hesitated in his will to spread what has essentially become hell on earth. In the course of 50 years, white man manages to unintentionally destroy what primitives sustained themselves on for 1000's of years.

So, the primitives vs. the explorers are an interesting study.

Jared Diamond’s Gun’s, Germ’s and Steel is an excellent book on this sort of phenomenon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039331 ... e&n=283155

I don't know. For what end should the whole of humanities contribution be what is valued? For the sake of human kind? That's nice, but it's still based in delusion.

Why do you think Solway urges humanity to conquer space? Why do you think the QRS go to such lengths to publish books, do radio shows, and make websites? For the sake of humankind? Truth? You must realize that humankind is a part of truth. When I act for the sake of truth, I act for the sake of humankind. They are part of one whole.

I value being not only free from delusion, but free from the stupid demands of other deluded people, of university, of the work place.

I work at a call center where I’m influenced and pressured to do a lot of what I don’t want to do. Everyone is. Should I go to university and try and get in a better position? And rack up how much debt? It's a trap. And then teach people to be free? I must practice what I preach, neither being the enemy, nor depending upon the enemy.

The chances of one having the energy to break free from the stupidity of other people is greatly enhanced when you find yourself living directly in a wise environment, with wise people. I am emphasizing natural farming and permaculture because, like a good book, it will greatly enhanced ones chances of having direct contact with reality.

Universities, and the work-place will only diminish ones chances of finding reality, they make people bitter and financially burdened.

What goes up must come down. Human kind will end one day. What begins must end. There will always be challenges in our lives.

Ok, so should we then, in the meantime, keep subordinating our selves to the stupid demands of culture while masochistically chanting the mantra: "What goes up must come down. Human kind will end one day. What begins must end. There will always be challenges in our lives." ??

I am not content with mediocrity.

I am not talking about the importance of preserving humanity anyways.

I am talking about the rationality of wanting to spend ones life in an environment that helps free one from the stifling demands of delusion.

There will always be ways to improve and make our existence better. This will end, though. Nature survives beyond us....the truth is eternal.

Why are you interested in philosophy then? Is it not to improve and make your existence better? I agree, yes, it all will end, but in the meantime I might as well work towards earning a livelihood, towards establishing a way to surviving that doesnt leave me metephorically: 'lice on the pig'

Thus, I don't seek utopia, but I seek wisdom.

Well, first of all, neither can be sought. It's only the unwise who seek. the wise simply act wisely - they dont seek, they dont try. And second, a wise individual is the seed contributing to the forest of heaven on earth (utopia).

You are pretty much saying: I don’t seek growing a tree: I just seek planting a seed.

Scott, when you are wise, you are contributing towards heaven on earth whether you like it or not.

When you free yourself, you inadvertently help free humanity.

You say that the message is important, not the messenger.

Well, then messanger is equally important, if not more important. For the message is an incidental bi-produt of the messenger. The messenger is the essence of the message.

Besides, when the messenger profoundly changes, that very change morphogenetically contributes toward the ease to which humanity can also profoundly change.

Are you familar with Rupert Sheldrake? Not a perfectly enlightened man of course. But his theory he contributed to biology is very significant. Morphogenetic fields is an interesting concept, and if true, well, then the messenger becomes more important then the message.

The message is just an incidental affair, that can however be helpful.

As I said before, wisdom seems to accomplish all things...and I believe seeking wisdom brings about utopia. Not being interested in humanitarian ideas. Farming is one aspect of life...the truth is what created farming, though.

Truth and farming are, among everything, one whole. There is unwise farming and there is wise farming. Wise farming is born out of truth, and unwise farming is born out of delusion.

You're right that the desire for perfection is neurotic.
Like perfection of living, through permaculture.
I don't think that seeking perfect enlightenment is the same, though. It's the sanest thing to do.

I am saying that an environment of natural farming is a superior environment to seek perfect enlightenment. Ones chances are vastly improved. Otherwise, you must earn your livelihood through a narrow talent (which is a hindrance) or by means of a stupid job that demands you to do what is stupid.

[Cory Duchesne]

Of course, not all jobs are totally stupid though. Didnt you say you were going to school Scott? What are you studying? What are you aiming for career-wise? Perhaps you will find yourself earning money in an environment that is not so taxing on your mind - something better than the dissapointing thought of farming. (There is something indeed low about 'the thought' of a farmers life - but i'm willing to take that lonely road) But I must say, it is good for the brain to be working so hands on with the biological world.

Right now I'm working part time as a customer service rep for a call center, which pays half decent. But there's alot of bullshit. So much bullshit.

Then I go home to my parents where I am working toward growing my own food on their 1.5 acres of property.

Eventually I want to buy their house, cos they are building a new one on a golf course.

I dont know if I can get so serious and dedicated to the gardening that I will produce enough crops to sell and pay the mortgage......I'm far from that goal.

Then there's always my teenage dream of making money off of doing music, film, and/or writing a book. That desire is hard to get rid of I tell ya. I'd be lying if I told you I dont work on my talents in those areas as well - with hopes of earning a livelihood.

[sschaula]

Wow I just wrote a reply to you that took about an hour, then forgot to copy it and the whole thing was erased.

Basically, to sum it up, I said "I think it's better to constantly think about the truth than to naturally farm without constantly thinking about the truth." I also said and asked a lot of things on a personal level, which were really great, but now it's gone.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Coincidence has it that I'm reading Fukuoka’s One-Straw Revolution book right now and some related material on permaculture. Nice to see this thread popping up in the mean time. Maybe I'm just being fashionable?

So far it seems an interesting and wise lifestyle philosophy for individuals here and there. But I've difficulty to see it working as more broad-scale projects. The whole philosophy of (unreasonable) demand and supply that drives capitalism, combined with the insane materialistic surplus economy, what would such economy care about this, unless as a way to produce cheaper in some cases?

Maybe it could work as a slow revolution, showing people alternative ways of thinking and doing by example, by merging. But parts of the permaculture-culture seems to be very flexible defined, or just plain vague. It joins together a lot of existing ecological concepts and sustainable methods, many which are in use even by modern agriculture since the late 80's.

I'll continue reading a bit more before shooting in my own foot but these are the questions that rise when thinking about the 'revolution' part. How much of this is true emptiness?

[Cory Duchesne]

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:

So far it seems an interesting and wise lifestyle philosophy for individuals here and there. But I've difficulty to see it working as more broad-scale projects.

And do you see wisdom as more applicable to more broad-scale projects? Why are you concerned with things happening on a broad scale? Anything wise happens slowly on a small-scale - - if even on a small-scale.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:

[With the] unreasonable demand and supply that drives capitalism, combined with the insane materialistic surplus economy, what would such economy care about this, unless as a way to produce cheaper in some cases?

In which instances has our unreasonable economy cared about anything wise?

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:

Maybe it could work as a slow revolution, showing people alternative ways of thinking and doing by example, by merging

It is working. And like anything intelligent, it is happening and progressing slowly.

Do you only value something if it offers the promise of fast large scale achievement? You didn’t happened to be born and raised in a sort of industrialish minded culture?

To prove to yourself that a revolution is already slowly happening, do some searches on permaculture and Fukuoka internet communities. There you would just scratch the surface. Check out the Seedballs website, as well as David Holmgrens website. Many positive developments have been establishing their roots here on earth for the past 100 years. And the seeds of these roots come in part from acknowledging the wiser lifestyle of more ancient primitive cultures who were much wiser than white man only because primitive and ancient cultures had no choice but to be very sensitive and respectful to their ecology – otherwise they would starve the next year.

This is because they weren’t able to store their food for very long. Their food came from what nature allotted them. They approached reality on nature’s terms, rather than their own. This forced them to live wisely and for the most part peacefully.

The primitives hadn’t developed the ability to produce grains on a large enough scale to have a surplus storage of food, and they had a very limited means of refrigeration. Thus Life was much better in those times. Man was enjoying himself much more.

Because man somehow started developing agriculture, his land started to increasingly become depleted without him understanding why. This forced him to desperately migrate further north. In other words, he ran away in bewilderment from the mess he had made. He made a mess out of something that was, prior to his meddling, close to perfect.

As man continued to leave in his wake soil depletion and sorrow, he continued to work very hard at growing and developing grains. This was so he could preserve his food in surplus (for those long migrations away from the land he just finished destroying). Because man began to focus so much on growing mostly grains, his diet then became very one dimensional. The consequence of this was a weakened immune system, and disease also became a problem. (It has been well proven that primitive indigenous culture did not suffer from any major diseases – just the occasional mild sickness) A host of strange diseases had gradually become one of mans most consistent companions as he continued to blunder his way further north.

Developing agriculture must have been quite an exercise on mans brain. As he migrated north over thousands of years he became more and more clever (the stupid sort of clever). This was in part because of the constant manipulating, worrying and calculating involved in developing agriculture, ruining land, dealing with his sicknesses, and coming up with increasingly desperate and clever ideas.

Another factor that forced mans mind into a more cunning state was having to survive in increasingly harsh climates. The more he destroyed his land, the more he forced himself into the colder climates.

He also became mysteriously obsessed with discovering the Garden of Eden. (hmmmm, I wonder why?)

He believed that he would eventually discover a place where everything was perfect and life would no longer be a burden. Occasionally he would discover an indigenous Indian culture living peacefully without much labor.

The ways of these savages were quite puzzling to white man. He was looking for the Garden of Eden – not some bunch of savages slacking off and being lazy.

So he eventually forced them to conform to his ways, and in the mean time continued fantasizing about the Garden of Eden and destroy land.

I could go on and on fleshing out the details of this story. It is such a classic case of tragicomedy.

But if you are interested you will read more on this yourself. Here, check out his article if you’re interested.

http://www.agron.iastate.edu/courses/ag ... stake.html

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:

But parts of the permaculture-culture seems to be very flexible defined, or just plain vague.

What parts are you referring to?

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:

It joins together a lot of existing ecological concepts and sustainable methods, many which are in use even by modern agriculture since the late 80's.

Well, 'permaculture' was developed byAustralians Bill Mollison and David Holmgren during the 1970s……..so the ecological concepts and sustainable methods that you are talking about could very well have had it’s origins in permaculture, rather than vice versa.

However, permaculture owes most of what it is to Masanobu Fukuoka and Sir Albert Howard who published most of their work between 1940 – 1960.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Sir Albert Howard (1873-1947) was a British botanist, an organic farming pioneer, and a principal figure in the early organic movement. He is often referred to as the father of modern organic agriculture. He worked in India as agricultural advisor, where he observed and came to support traditional Indian farming practices over conventional agricultural science.
Notice the part that says: [Albert Howard] observed and came to support traditional Indian farming practices over conventional agricultural science.

So Permaculture goes back to ancient Indian farming practices which were probably maintained by a more holistic awareness that had a strong relationship with the rigorous spiritual development that went on in those times.

DVR wrote:

How much of this is true emptiness?

What do you do for a living Deilbert? Probably about as much as that.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

And do you see wisdom as more applicable to more broad-scale projects? Why are you concerned with things happening on a broad scale? Anything wise happens slowly on a small-scale - - if even on a small-scale.

Did I say 'more applicable'? Wisdom starts by reading carefully - if one reads at all. Permaculture is about connections and relations. It doesn't take a genius to figure out any lifestyle is connected to what the other six billion folks are doing no matter how isolated one thinks he is. Permaculture is not about retreat, ultimately. Even the book title 'revolution' implies concerns about a spreading, larger scale effect. This is not only about some personal individual revolution of the mind - though it very well may start there.

Permaculture seems to me a front for a different way of functioning, with less or different needs and desires, more in tune with everything. But to spread that mindset to others in any significant way has failed already for thousands of years. I see no reason it will work now, even if there's no doubt the permaculture approach is superior in many ways. The soil of the mind has never been harder to sow. History is full of failed attempts to introduce wisdom into aspects of life, and concerns about the longer term success of this attempt are in my view quite valid.

In which instances has our unreasonable economy cared about anything wise?

Nature operates often with abundances bordering on the pointless. There is a reason for that: possibilities and insurances. With economy it isn't much different.

Do you only value something if it offers the promise of fast large scale achievement? You didn’t happened to be born and raised in a sort of industrialish minded culture?

Why do you ask? You start to sound too emotionally involved, if you start interpreting me that way.

Anyway, yes, the concerns I expressed had to do with the larger scales. That's how my mind works. They were just a couple of thoughts and questions and were no attempt to make permaculture look bad. I'm investigating it already for a longer while and your response so far is not really helping. There's an important relation between the small scale and the large scale. This also has to be understood. This is part of wisdom.

Of course all my concerns should not keep people from doing their alternative ways and it certainly won't keep me doing what I'm doing right now. If you were thinking along those lines then you were thinking premature.

[Cory Duchesne]

Cory Patrick wrote:
And do you see wisdom as more applicable to more broad-scale projects? Why are you concerned with things happening on a broad scale? Anything wise happens slowly on a small-scale - - if even on a small-scale.

Dierbert replied:
Did I say 'more applicable'? Wisdom starts by reading carefully - if one reads at all.

Ok, fair enough. Here is exactly what you originally said:

Diebert: So far it seems an interesting and wise lifestyle philosophy for individuals here and there. But I've difficulty to see it working as more broad-scale projects.

Diebert, I just find it kind of a vague sentence I guess.

But If I have interpreted it properly, well then I just don’t see your point. But maybe I’m missing something.

For example, do you think I should not investigate the words of Buddha, Socrates, or QRS simply because I have difficulty seeing it work as a more broad-scale project?

Permaculture is about connections and relations.

In other words, it’s about acknowledging causality.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out any lifestyle is connected to what the other six billion folks are doing no matter how isolated one thinks he is.

First of all. Who said that was the definition of Genius? Are you assuming that’s what I think? And second of all – probably about 5 billion + folks out there hadn’t given a moments thought to such a fact. Such contemplation requires more than an average level of maturity, don’t you think?

Diebert wrote:

Permaculture is not about retreat, ultimately.

And what's your point? And why are you reducing this all down to permaculture? This thread focused more on Fukuoka, but if you read my posts carefully you'll see that I am stressing the reader to acknowledge relationships of awareness and dissent beyond particular individuals and mere coinages

Diebert wrote:

Even the book title 'revolution' implies concerns about a spreading, larger scale effect.

Didn’t Jesus have this kind of idea? – you know – the mustard seed parable?

This is not only about some personal individual revolution of the mind - though it very well may start there.

In no such instances is there a personal individual revolution of the mind without an accompanying day to day ‘earn your bread’ sort of living.

A personal revolution of the mind has an inexorable relationship to the richness and variety of ones environment and thus, revolution of the mind will probably be much easier for people when they find themselves earning a livelihood by means of working within a rich wholesome, intelligent, environment.

Instead, 99percent of us are ‘lice on the pig’.

Permaculture seems to me a front for a different way of functioning, with less or different needs and desires, more in tune with everything. But to spread that mindset on to others in any significant way has failed already for thousands of years.

To quote Soren Kierkegaard:

God is as infinitely concerned with one person of intensity, yes, as he is infinitely indifferent to the millions and trillions. We humans believe numbers mean something. For God, it is precisely numbers that mean nothing, nothing at all.

Why are you so hung up on the masses Diebert?

And if you insists that I share your values of numbers, well then I can assure you that there are plenty high quality individuals out there transforming culture – not with ‘permaculture’ (I’m so tired of the trendy word) but with an exceptional understanding of nature, of corruption, with a keen awareness, and an exceptional lack of crude twisted desire.

No, they may not be the perfect enlightened people, however they are close, and the work they are doing will make it much easier for perfectly enlightened beings to come into being and thrive.

Diebert wrote:

I see no reason it will work now, even if there's no doubt the permaculture approach is superior in many ways. The soil of the mind has never been harder to sow. History is full of failed attempts to introduce wisdom into aspects of life, and concerns about the longer term success of this attempt are in my view quite valid.

Why were there hardly any organic farms 30 years ago? Why are there so many now? How come everyone was allowed to smoke indoors 30 years ago, but hardly at all now? How come it was so difficult to get your hands on some wise writings 30 years ago, but now, you can go to websites such as Quinn’s and Solway’s and find a concentrated body of great wisdom? It goes on and on Diebert. I know the truth is overwhelming to us anxiety prone creatures, but we as humans really need to work on facing the bigger picture. Yes things right now have never been stupider, but that is only because things right now have never been so intelligent. You have to see the whole large scale picture Diebert!

Cory wrote:
Do you only value something if it offers the promise of fast large scale achievement? You didn’t happened to be born and raised in a sort of industrialish minded culture?

Diebert replied:
Why do you ask? You start to sound too emotionally involved, if you start interpreting me that way.

No, I’m just poking you in your soft spot, just to make you aware of it. Come on, tuffin-up Dierbert

Diebert:

Anyway, yes, the concerns I expressed had to do with the larger scales. That's how my mind works.

Well, any person with a somewhat above average level of intelligence likes to think on a large scale. But as we mature even further we tend to work on paying heed to and taking care of the small things, the sort of things that to most people are invisible. And then we let the rest take care of it self. I’m not saying we abandon the broad large-scale vision. On the contrary the large-scale vision is enriched infinitely by means of going inside, by means of studying the infinitesimal.

They were just a couple of thoughts and questions and were no attempt to make permaculture look bad.

That’s fine Dierbert – and please don’t think I’m sadistically trying to make you look bad. I just want you to give it your all with me, or don’t give it at all.

Diebert wrote:

I'm investigating it already for a longer while and your response so far is not really helping.

I feel it has helped me, and it will probalby help other readers. And therefore it ends up helping you after all.

Diebert wrote:

There's an important relation between the small scale and the large scale. This also has to be understood. This is part of wisdom.

Exactly, now you’re speaking my language.

Diebert wrote:

Of course all my concerns should not keep people from doing their alternative ways and it certainly won't keep me from doing what I'm doing right now. If you were thinking along those lines then you were thinking premature.

Actually, your concerns and your actions have had and will continue to place restrictions on the concerns and actions of other people. For instance, the concerns and actions of someone like George Bush has held many people back from doing what they are concerned about. The concerns and actions of someone like Buddha, Kevin Solway, David Quinn, Jesus, Fukuoka, etc, have in part prevented many people from cooperating with those who want to live in a less intelligent way. People who want to settle for a less intelligent way of living need the cooperation of others. People who want to live unintelligently find their attempts thwarted by the concerns and actions of the more intelligent people, and vice versa. For instance, David Quinn could ban me from his forum because my concerns and actions were negative to him and therefore his concerns and actions actually keep me from following through with mine. For a moment that is. One always picks themselves up after being tripped and continues to approach the limitiations of reality to the best of his or her awareness. Actually you may even show very clearly to me that my concern with horticulture, natrual farming, and permaculture is actually born from an inferrior awareness.

Therefore, your interests and concerns would prevent me from following through with my interests and concerns.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Hi Cory,

Diebert: So far it seems an interesting and wise lifestyle philosophy for individuals here and there. But I've difficulty to see it working as more broad-scale projects.

Diebert, I just find it kind of a vague sentence I guess.

But If I have interpreted it properly, well then I just don’t see your point. But maybe I’m missing something.

I'll need some more time to make this point more clear. It has to do with how I regard economics, capitalism and so on in relation to nature and especially human nature. But I'd like to work my thoughts out further on in this discussion, if you've interest of course.

For example, do you think I should not investigate the words of Buddha, Socrates, or QRS simply because I have difficulty seeing it work as a more broad-scale project?

Those examples work, or at least I can see them working, trying to dig to the root problem on the broadest scale possible to them. Maybe you thought I only was thinking industrial scales?

And why are you reducing this all down to permaculture? This thread focused more on Fukuoka, but if you read my posts carefully you'll see that I am stressing the reader to acknowledge relationships of awareness and dissent beyond particular individuals and mere coinages.

Point taken. Though there are some authors that take the concept of permaculture to the same level and talk about lifestyle and mentality that goes with it. So I didn't feel I was reducing it but I realize now I might have anyway :)

Didn’t Jesus have this kind of idea? – you know – the mustard seed parable?

Exactly. But even the sower knows what the seed can, and probably will do and on what scale. If not, he'll change method. Farmers are not big gamblers in my opinion.

Why are you so hung up on the masses Diebert?

Why are you so hung up on the individual?

And if you insists that I share your values of numbers, well then I can assure you that there are plenty high quality individuals out there transforming culture (...)

Of course. But hasn't that always been the case?

No, they may not be the perfect enlightened people, however they are close, and the work they are doing will make it much easier for perfectly enlightened beings to come into being and thrive.

You might want to clarify that a bit. How will it be made easier? Is this about independence or living the hermit life?

Yes things right now have never been stupider, but that is only because things right now have never been so intelligent. You have to see the whole large scale picture Diebert!

So what kind of stupidities will permaculture introduce then? :)

Well, any person with a somewhat above average level of intelligence likes to think on a large scale. But as we mature even further we tend to work on paying heed to and taking care of the small things, the sort of things that to most people are invisible. And then we let the rest take care of it self. I’m not saying we abandon the broad large-scale vision. On the contrary the large-scale vision is enriched infinitely by means of going inside, by means of studying the infinitesimal.

There's no disagreement between us here. But again, it's not about first thinking on a large scale and then growing into caring for small things. That first large scale thinking would have been defective it the infinitesimal was not known.

I just want you to give it your all with me, or don’t give it at all.

That sounds dramatic. I better finish the book first then because I was just testing waters here, stating my first impressions while you were around to answer me. The subject of permaculture is only a few months old for me and I've not yet put it into practise myself in any of the ways I'm reading about.