Quinn and Solways 'wise-man beards'

[MKFaizi]

I could not go on the dole for personality issues. Not gonna happen.

Even if it did happen, I would be constantly worried that it would be taken away.

The US is an anti-dole nation, except for illegal immigrants, of course.

If I recall correctly, you are an American who gets welfare. Good for you. There is no way -- unless I was nearly dead -- I could do it.

I could not get any help even when I was a single mother after my husband died. I am a nurse.

Faizi

[frank]

The point isn't Faizi's 'poor me' Martyring of herself in the workplace...the 'riot of emotion' that plays inside her as she rescues the vulnerables and persecutes the 'receptionists'....the ongoing drama of her mental creation...the refusal to accept 'what is' but get upset about 'what is' and rail against it...

The Act 2 Scene 4 of her Personal Drama Queen Tragedy...the grandiose attempt at Oscar Glory..

Is this a Genius Forum or a Bleeding Hearts Club?

The point is the delicious Comedy of it.

As the scholarly Will Shakespeare so succinctly described it for us..

A Life is a Tale told by an Idiot, full of sound and fury that signifies nothing..

Thanx for the Belly Laugh.

frank

[Unidian]

Faizi,

Have it your way, then. It's all good.

[DHodges]

Obviously, if you want to have a fairly hassle-free life and be promoted swiftly up the social ladder, you're going to have "play the game".

I'm not interested in moving up some imaginary ladder, but yes, I do want to have a reasonably hassle-free life. In particular, I don't need to create unnecessary hassles for myself.

That means not only altering your appearance to make it more conformist and less threathening, but also altering your personality as well.

I have certainly done that.
Anyone over the age of four has done that. That's "socialization." You are not born with a personality; you construct one (or, rather, one is jointly constructed between you and your environment).

I think you may have developed an attachment to looking a certain way - a way that says you are non-conformist, that you are above caring about your appearance, that it would be beneath you - that you are apart from, and superior to, regular people. Your thoughts are too lofty to be debased by spending a minute combing your hair. That's too shallow for someone of your depth. You stand apart from "the herd."

All the rough edges have to be shaved away from your speech and behaviour, including most, if not all, of your truthful thoughts.

Not expressing truthful thoughts is a long distance from not having truthful thoughts. I rarely talk to anyone about anything of any depth. We talk about practical things that need to be dealt with, and that's it. I really don't talk with people much unless it is necessary.

Is the money and increased social status worth all the degradation involved in constantly diluting one's personality in this way? That's the question.

I don't think that's the question. Generally, people have to work anyway. Given that you are going to work, doesn't it make sense to look for the highest ratio of pay to effort put in? I mean, there's a reason someone is willing to pay you to do it.

There's a difference between degradation and humility. You give the impression that you think of yourself as being above working. It seems very egotistical.

I always used to feel like a swindler whenever I dressed up in nice clothes and combed my hair. When others smiled at my spruced-up apearance and said, " Oh, you look nice!", I always felt like I was insulting them with these cude and obvious attempts to manipulate them. I thought the whole situation was very embarassing. Wearing nice clothes and combing one's hair is surely the height of disrespect towards others.

Fuck 'em. You're always saying how shallow and deluded people are. If it is an insult, you are talking about insulting people who don't realize they are being insulted - so the insult is purely in your own mind. Giving people what they want is hardly a swindle.

[Pye]

.

There is something a little too precious about these self-images of baggy pants mismatched ungroomed poor-dolt sages and I-don't-care; it's-too-superficial-for-me comments, wherein a great deal of caring about it is belied.

There is also something extraordinarily clean and simple about the clean and keeping it simple. Very easy. Truly not-worthy of note.

.

[David Quinn]

Pye wrote:

There is something a little too precious about these self-images of baggy pants mismatched ungroomed poor-dolt sages and I-don't-care; it's-too-superficial-for-me comments, wherein a great deal of caring about it is belied.

It reminds me of that story about Diogenes when he spied Plato rearranging his clothing in order to make some of the worn holes more visible. He mischieviously said to Plato, "I can see your vanity shining through those holes!"

All I can do is reiterate that, personally, fashion and appearance don't interest me in the slightest. I said as much to Cory when he asked me whether I grew my beard in order to make a fashion statement.

However, I do think it's important to keeping pointing out other people's obsession with their appearance and the compromises they make in order secure certain benefits - e.g. a nice job, an easy life, a sexual partner, etc. It would be remiss of me not to. It's all part of the process of raising humanity's consciousness.

-

[avidaloca]

I have to say in 10 years I've never seen David Quinn exhibit even the slightest trace of vanity about physical appearance, but then that is not the only form of vanity. To be beyond all vanity would impress me.

[David Quinn]

Are you sure you would be able to recognize someone who is "beyond all vanity"? What do you think such a person would be like?

-

[David Quinn]

Dave Hodges wrote:

DQ: That means not only altering your appearance to make it more conformist and less threathening, but also altering your personality as well.

DH: I have certainly done that.
Anyone over the age of four has done that. That's "socialization." You are not born with a personality; you construct one (or, rather, one is jointly constructed between you and your environment).

I'm not sure that's a good enough reason to keep making compromises in adulthood. When a person reaches adulthood, he has the opportunity to deconstruct the personality he has formed over the years, as part of the larger exercise of understanding truth. To suppress one's findings in these matters for the sake of some material gain is a very big sacrifice to make.

I think you may have developed an attachment to looking a certain way - a way that says you are non-conformist, that you are above caring about your appearance, that it would be beneath you - that you are apart from, and superior to, regular people. Your thoughts are too lofty to be debased by spending a minute combing your hair. That's too shallow for someone of your depth. You stand apart from "the herd."

And you have a problem with that?

DQ: All the rough edges have to be shaved away from your speech and behaviour, including most, if not all, of your truthful thoughts.

DH: Not expressing truthful thoughts is a long distance from not having truthful thoughts. I rarely talk to anyone about anything of any depth. We talk about practical things that need to be dealt with, and that's it. I really don't talk with people much unless it is necessary.

I'm sure that's the case. But even so, your presence alone would act as an affirmation of their deluded lifestyles and values. The very fact that you have to hide your truths means that you implicitly support their falseness. If you didn't do this, you would be fired in no time.

You give the impression that you think of yourself as being above working. It seems very egotistical.

I don't consider myself above working as such. I just don't see why I should have to work in a manner that supports a climate of ignorance and falseness.

DQ: I always used to feel like a swindler whenever I dressed up in nice clothes and combed my hair. When others smiled at my spruced-up apearance and said, " Oh, you look nice!", I always felt like I was insulting them with these crude and obvious attempts to manipulate them. I thought the whole situation was very embarassing. Wearing nice clothes and combing one's hair is surely the height of disrespect towards others.

DH: Fuck 'em.

Yes, that's what I was doing!

You're always saying how shallow and deluded people are. If it is an insult, you are talking about insulting people who don't realize they are being insulted - so the insult is purely in your own mind. Giving people what they want is hardly a swindle.

Do you give a five-year-old child a packet of matches simply because he wants it? Most people are like children. They don't know what is good for them. If you keep encouraging them to bask in their shallowness and ignorance, then you are not really helping them in the long-run.

-

[frank]

However, I do think it's important to keeping pointing out other people's obsession with their appearance and the compromises they make in order secure certain benefits - e.g. a nice job, an easy life, a sexual partner, etc. It would be remiss of me not to. It's all part of the process of raising humanity's consciousness.

There's some kind of implication you have about all this that a 'shaving man' carries Womanly traits...your Vanity sprouts from your chin voluptuosly...how can you tie yourself up in knots like this?

e.g. a nice job, an easy life, a sexual partner, etc.

What do you get who claims enlightenment?
No job
No Money
No Assets
No chick
Welfare dependant
1 Beard
A feeling of smug superiority

You get the booby prize.

It's such exquisitely humourous..sometimes my mirth collapses me....it's brilliantly rich in it's potential for satire...if there is anything in Life that's close to inherent, surely it's Comedy...and particularly the Comedy that surrounds Human hubris...

After Shakyamani was enlightened he declared, to achieve that, he didn't need to leave his Wife & Kid.

frank

[DHodges]

I have to say in 10 years I've never seen David Quinn exhibit even the slightest trace of vanity about physical appearance,

I've not met him, so I will take your word on it.

[DHodges]

I'm sure that's the case. But even so, your presence alone would act as an affirmation of their deluded lifestyles and values. The very fact that you have to hide your truths means that you implicitly support their falseness. If you didn't do this, you would be fired in no time.

I can not be responsible for what other people think. I am not a missionary. I am not a bodhisattva.

I have dealt with people who were missionaries. They are annoying, especially in the workplace. I would, I think, help someone who is genuinely searching. But I don't try to help people that don't want help.

Obviously, I think a lot of people are very highly deluded - but no doubt they would think the same of me, and want equal time to tell me about Jesus or Xenu or whatever.

Do you give a five-year-old child a packet of matches simply because he wants it?

No, but I also don't give people lectures on keeping matches away from their kids, or break into their house to make sure they don't have any.

Most people are like children. They don't know what is good for them. If you keep encouraging them to bask in their shallowness and ignorance, then you are not really helping them in the long-run.

Are you so sure that you know what is good for people, better than they themselves know? Is that not arrogant? Do you go around knocking the cigarettes out of people's hands?

People have to find the truth on their own, by looking for it. You can't bully them into it.

[avidaloca]

DavidQuinn wrote:

Are you sure you would be able to recognize someone who is "beyond all vanity"? What do you think such a person would be like?

Fully enlightened.

Would I be able to recognise them? I doubt it. It takes an enlightened person to be able to recognise another.

[DHodges]

I can not be responsible for what other people think. I am not a missionary. I am not a bodhisattva.

After writing this yesterday, and thinking about it for a while, I almost went back and deleted it. But I decided to let it stand, because it provoked a lot of thinking. Why am I not willing to take on this responsibility? Are there valid reasons, or just excuses?

I have dealt with people who were missionaries. They are annoying, especially in the workplace.

I other words, I place value on - as I see it - not being an asshole. But does this really just mean I value other people not thinking of me as an asshole? [Or even, not thinking of myself that way?] Maybe. Maybe it's just ego. I need to think about that.

Why is this a value I have? Is it related to being polite?

People have to find the truth on their own, by looking for it. You can't bully them into it.

But I could keep from supporting other people's delusions, rather than just going along with them. Do no harm, at least.

Another issue that I started thinking about is mental health - other people's, too, but mostly mine. There are limits to what I can do. Pushing too far, too fast, won't work.

Just thinking about these things put me at the edge of my comfort zone.

[sschaula]

I like where this topic has gone, thanks to Dave's honesty with himself.

There are a couple of things that I question.

Dave wrote:

People have to find the truth on their own, by looking for it. You can't bully them into it.

The person builds the puzzle, the sage shows which piece goes where.

If the sage didn't share the truth, the world would be a lot worse than it is. Every good thing comes from the truth, and every bad thing comes from delusion.

People seek happiness, whether it be through a high paying job or moving to Australia. Finding the love of their lives, or picking up entertaining hobbies. ...Seeking enlightenment.

All happiness ends. You lose your job, the country you move to gets old, your lover breaks up with you, your hobbies become boring.

You find out enlightenment doesn't bring happiness.

Then when you've done everything you find happiness in nothing, and that's the lasting happiness. You finally become a good person, and not a "hungry ghost". You try to decipher the truth and it becomes easier and easier day by day. Life is clear, simple, effortless and fulfilling.

My point...if everyone kept the truth to themselves you wouldn't have the helpful nudge into realizations that are essential on the way. I'm very certain that I wouldn't think about the things I do all day without having come to this forum. We're entirely caused...completely programmed. If there's no influence, people just won't be influenced.


Martin wrote:

Would I be able to recognise them? I doubt it. It takes an enlightened person to be able to recognise another

Is that TRUE? I don't believe it is.

You can't tell what people think, unless you can read their mind or they tell you; and even then they may not be thinking what they say to you, they may just be repeating someone else, not knowing the meaning.

The way you can tell if a person is enlightened is if they seem like an embodiment of the truth to you (that is, whatever you know to be "true" where you're at in your "spiritual development"). Take notes from that person...maybe ask them about their thoughts...talk about the nature of things with them.

You'll never know for certain, because the only thing anyone's ever certain of is ultimate truth (since it's logically undeniable).

If you think about it, what does it matter if someone is enlightened anyway? What matters is how much truth you have uncovered and what that does to who you are. The more immersed in truth you are, the more you seem to become truth.

You'll find out if someone's not enlightened. Who cares if they tricked you for most of your life. It's all a mirage anyway.

[frank]

The 'herd mentality' or 'culture' QRS rail against basically consists of a Script and Costume that the 'herd' follows.

The script includes things like marry, career, raise kids, hobbies etc..
The Costume would involve things like an Armani Suit, Club Tie, Prada Shoes etc...

It's got a kind of 'plot' to it..that if you can create an Identity in there for yourself and do the role well enough you can get to a 'Happy Ending'...

Character, Plot, Script, Costume.....Role Play.

Why can't QRS be considered a Herd?

QRS has a Script (A=A etc..no job..no chicks)

QRS has a Costume (Beard, baggy pants)

There's a kind of 'plot' that's meant to deliver a 'Happy Ending'..

Would it be fair to say that QRS is just a 'Counter-Culture'?

A position that exists in opposition to 'Mainstream Culture'?

A polarisation?

Either position contains elements of farce to this Observer who derives 'merriment and enjoyment' as, 'the Comedy' of it plays out...

Would it be an Act of Genius to recognise QRS as 'containing an equal measure of superficiality'...in line with the superficiality of 'mainstream culture'...

Would it be an Act of Genius to recognise that within QRS...Character, Plot, Script, Costume...sustains it?

frank

[oborden]

I think it would be fair to call "QRS" a "counter-culture." What of it?

[MKFaizi]

David Hodges wrote:

People have to find the truth on their own, by looking for it. You can't bully them into it.

I absolutely agree with this.

I rightly assume that those who come to this forum and stay here for any length of time already have an interest in philosophical truth. I certainly do not think that my co-workers do. I have no desire to lead them to it in the way of a missionary. If I started talking to them about the writing of Nietzsche or whoever -- Diogenes or Socrates -- others -- or about the idea of ultimate truth; pure abstraction -- guess what? They would not get it. They would have no idea what I was talking about. Plus, I would be in the very same position as the "witnessing" Christian. I have no desire to convert people.

The only way a person can come to philosophy is through desire. I would have to know someone for a period of years to broach the subject. I have had this experience twice -- and both people died -- kind of funny, in a way.

Toward the end of her life, I was able to speak to my best friend about philosophy and the abstraction of truth. She was starting to read Nietzsche and Kierkegaard and she was beginning to understand. I was not converting her. We had much in common -- single mothers of two each kids; struggling to pay mortgages, childcare; dealing with school -- the usual crap.

We only began to have discussions including philosophy/thought after we had known each other for about four and a half years. Then, she was killed.

The other person died in 2001. He was my last "lover." More like friends. We also had a lot in common -- fairly severe depression and appreciation for the absurd. We were both clumsy -- he was even more clumsy than me -- always falling in the creek. He loved to fish but he always managed to fall in the creek -- even in February. Hypothermia.

I gave him a copy of "Fear and Trembling" and -- just for fun -- "Naked Lunch." Also, a volume of "Ecce Homo."

His daughter found him dead in the shed. She was looking for her bicycle. He was dead on the trampoline.

So, that is about as far as I ever got with introducing people to pure thought/philosophy.

I just don't think it works to waltz into a room and shout, "Thus Spoke Zarathustra."

Seeking wisdom -- whatever you want to call it -- is something that is deeply personal. It is not meant for everyone.

It would make no sense for David Hodges or someone like him to start spouting off his convictions in the workplace. Same as it would make no sense for David Hodges or someone like him to walk into a pub and start spouting off. You might win over an asshole or two who would become obnoxious followers.

But why would you want to do that?

I keep philosophy to myself unless I know a person is capable of it or interested in it.

I am a very private person. I like solitude. Work is something I do from necessity -- kind of like the dole. It is not something I do for socializing. I am not interested in friends. I gain no social status from working. My pay is just above the poverty line.

Faizi

[MKFaizi]

Oborden wrote:

"QRS" a "counter-culture."

That was never my understanding. My understanding has always been that the forum was intended to promote independent, original thought and enlightenment.

However, I can see how you might think it is a counter-culture or some other kind of culture. It has its kings. Queens not allowed.

The only way that you can penetrate it is to earn favortism. You cannot become enlightened. The only people here who are allowed to be recognized as enlightened are Dan Solway, Kevin Quinn, and David Rowden.

A close call is Little Kelly Kangaroo. First Pet.

Faizi

[frank]

I think it would be fair to call "QRS" a "counter-culture." What of it?....Oborden

Would it be an Act of Genius to recognise QRS as 'containing an equal measure of superficiality'...in line with the superficiality of 'mainstream culture'...

Would it be an Act of Genius to recognise that within QRS...Character, Plot, Script, Costume...sustains it?

It has its kings. Queens not allowed. ...Faizi

I think they mean Drama Queens...hehe...good Idea!

The only people here who are allowed to be recognized as enlightened are Dan Solway, Kevin Quinn, and David Rowden.

Are you saying it's a rigged Game?
Well that's surprising given Humans are involved...hehe

frank

[David Quinn]

Don't you guys have anything better to do than spin this kind of drivel?

"Sub-standard material" indeed.

-

Marsha wrote:

The only people here who are allowed to be recognized as enlightened are Dan Solway, Kevin Quinn, and David Rowden.

That's untrue. I will happily recognize anyone as "enlightened" who knows the Truth and can speak about it with clarity and authority.

-

frank wrote:

The 'herd mentality' or 'culture' QRS rail against basically consists of a Script and Costume that the 'herd' follows.

The script includes things like marry, career, raise kids, hobbies etc..
The Costume would involve things like an Armani Suit, Club Tie, Prada Shoes etc...

It's got a kind of 'plot' to it..that if you can create an Identity in there for yourself and do the role well enough you can get to a 'Happy Ending'...

Character, Plot, Script, Costume.....Role Play.

Why can't QRS be considered a Herd?

You're essentially creating a caricature of what's there. The three of us are definitely trying to change the culture of society so that it is more receptive to wisdom and rationality, but it would be wrong to think of this as a process of replacing one herd-culture with another. Rather, the aim is to develop the quality of people's consciousnesses so that they leave all their herdishness behind.

A population of independent, enlightened thinkers does not make a herd, by definition.

QRS has a Script (A=A etc..no job..no chicks)

In other words, they value rationality and freedom.

QRS has a Costume (Beard, baggy pants)

You've been misinformed. There is no costume.

There's a kind of 'plot' that's meant to deliver a 'Happy Ending'..

Would it be fair to say that QRS is just a 'Counter-Culture'?

A position that exists in opposition to 'Mainstream Culture'?

A polarisation?

Either position contains elements of farce to this Observer who derives 'merriment and enjoyment' as, 'the Comedy' of it plays out...

I wonder if that is because you confine yourself to being a spectator who merely observes things from the stands (and shouts out the occasional jibe) and shies away from being an actual participant .....? It's easy being smug in the stands.

Would it be an Act of Genius to recognise QRS as 'containing an equal measure of superficiality'...in line with the superficiality of 'mainstream culture'...

Would it be an Act of Genius to recognise that within QRS...Character, Plot, Script, Costume...sustains it?

I don't know about genius, but it would certainly be a creative act of the imagination.

-

[David Quinn]

frank wrote:

DQ: However, I do think it's important to keeping pointing out other people's obsession with their appearance and the compromises they make in order secure certain benefits - e.g. a nice job, an easy life, a sexual partner, etc. It would be remiss of me not to. It's all part of the process of raising humanity's consciousness.

F: There's some kind of implication you have about all this that a 'shaving man' carries Womanly traits...

Well, it does make one more hairless and thus more woman-like in appearance. Add to this the skin creams, after-shave lotions and nice clothes and what you have, in effect, is a de-facto woman - albeit a substandard version of the real thing, as most people would happily vouch for.

It's also well known that most people instinctively regard bearded individuals with suspicion. People automatically think they are loose cannons, possibly a bit violent and mad. By contrast, the clean-shaven face suggests domesticity, decency, passiveness, reliability, conformity, obsession with women, etc - all essential traits for the modern man. So there is little doubt in my mind that shaving is an action specifically designed to bring one closer to the herd and make one more pleasing to women.

your Vanity sprouts from your chin voluptuosly...how can you tie yourself up in knots like this?

I have to have an appearance of some kind, so I can't escape these issues entirely. All I can do is work by the principle of Spending As Little Time As Possible Thinking About It.

DQ: e.g. a nice job, an easy life, a sexual partner, etc.

f: What do you get who claims enlightenment?
No job
No Money
No Assets
No chick
Welfare dependant
1 Beard
A feeling of smug superiority

You get the booby prize.

It's such exquisitely humourous..sometimes my mirth collapses me....it's brilliantly rich in it's potential for satire...if there is anything in Life that's close to inherent, surely it's Comedy...and particularly the Comedy that surrounds Human hubris...

Man, you are shallow.

After Shakyamani was enlightened he declared, to achieve that, he didn't need to leave his Wife & Kid.

If he hadn't left his wife and kids, he never would have become enlightened. He would have died a fat, ignorant aristocrat. He must have momentarily forgotten this small fact when he uttered those words above. Or what's more likely, they were probably concocted by one of his more hedonistic-minded followers further down the track.

Note that he did set up a monastic community for the express purpose of allowing people to abandon their worldly relationships and practice Buddhism full-time, which is another sign that he probably didn't utter those words.

-

[frank]

I have to have an appearance of some kind, so I can't escape these issues entirely.

Yes, it is absurd.
...and it is fun to take Occam's Razor to the Beards of the prophets...well, that is apart from the skin rash...hahaha

Man, you are shallow.

Thankyou.
The 'emptier' I get the more delighted I become.

Well, you've given me the Stock Standard Response your Script requires you to make to me...who could ask for anything more?

Now, this Act of Genius.
It's an Act of Thinking isn't it?
It's an Act of Thinking that 'pierces the veil' isn't it?
Pierces the Veil of Illusion?

If that's so, what is it that is Found beyond the Veil?

frank

[David Quinn]

frank,

DQ: I have to have an appearance of some kind, so I can't escape these issues entirely.

f: Yes, it is absurd.

I don't find it so. I think you're creating your own amusement here. It has little to do with me.

DQ: Man, you are shallow.

f: Thankyou.
The 'emptier' I get the more delighted I become.

Well, I reckon you're full of it.

Well, you've given me the Stock Standard Response your Script requires you to make to me...who could ask for anything more?

Calling enlightenment a booby prize and listing the outer poverty aspects of the enlightened life is to omit the very meat of enlightenment itself. It is a shallow characterization to make.

If you were a different kind of person, I might have thought you were being profoundly ironical out of a deep love of truth. But instead, I have the impression you are crudely laughing at a surface irony.

Now, this Act of Genius.
It's an Act of Thinking isn't it?
It's an Act of Thinking that 'pierces the veil' isn't it?
Pierces the Veil of Illusion?

If that's so, what is it that is Found beyond the Veil?

Nature as it really is.

-

[oborden]

I think it would be fair to call "QRS" a "counter-culture." What of it?....Oborden

Would it be an Act of Genius to recognise QRS as 'containing an equal measure of superficiality'...in line with the superficiality of 'mainstream culture'...

No, it would be hard to say that QRS lacked depth of thought or knowledge. It is a counter-culture insofar as it resists and opposes mainstream culture because mainstream culture insists upon superficiality. I don’t see it to be differing for the sake of non-conformity.