Thanks to those I visited in the US and Canada

[Carl G]

Well said, Trevor. The tanks are on the streets here in America as well -- have been since 9/11 -- but are invisible here, as well. Ah, the beauty of mind control and legislation.

[Leyla Shen]

To the funny man:

I got your silly joke. I thought it was really stupid, especially since you later allude to some seriousness on the topic and are not forthcoming.

Your serious point specifically on the matter of Americans suffering greater than anyone else, which would otherwise be a joke, is to say that its a pointless point to make because the injustices of the establishment are contained in books nobody gives a crap about? Consequently, my challenging you on the articulation of such a point must necessarily be because I am a religious wing nut kowtowing to the Muslim horde, of which I am a part.

[insert sarcasm] Stunning reasoning and clarity there.

In any event, how does this demonstration of a single source of 50 bil establishment injustices go anywhere near demonstrating any point as to how American suffering is greater than that of other people? That’s right, it doesn’t. Therefore, you never had a serious point and your humour is left severely wanting in that confusion.

What’s scary is I think you actually believe American suffering is greater than anywhere else on Earth.

Perhaps you should save your money and travel to Palestine or Iraq--or any third-world nation.

Your idea of suffering is unconditionally neurotic, which means that there is no physical cause---like, you ain’t being blown up or starved to death. That is, it’s purely a problem of ego.

[Imadrongo]

Trevor,

In this case, however, you are one of the "inferior people". The greater people control you. And you are perfectly correct: they don't like democracy. They don't want you, one of the inferior people, to be given enough information or enough say to control even the tiniest facet of government. What would you do with the power? Certainly nothing wise!

And what do you do with your "power"? Post negative comments about the government on an internet forum.... And make comments about how you feel violated by them and how immoral this is.

The greater people don't fight in wars. They tell their inferiors to die for them, and these inferiors happily learn how to fight and die by joining the military in droves.

Not always. At any rate most great people have some military background so they can defend themselves and know how to use their forces.

If they were actually doing this, the US would be a great nation. Since they are not doing this, and are instead using their considerable resources to enslave other nations, everyone in the world hates America.

Hahahaha at democracy making a great nation.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Neil,

And what do you do with your "power"? Post negative comments about the government on an internet forum.... And make comments about how you feel violated by them and how immoral this is.

I am no more empowered than you. I am merely pointing out that you yourself are one of the inferior people that superior people shit on. And you agree with their ethic!

Not always. At any rate most great people have some military background so they can defend themselves and know how to use their forces.

The problem is, they are now indoctrinated. It comes at a cost -- freedom for fighting ability? I think not! I'd rather learn how to fight on my own, thank you very much.

Hahahaha at democracy making a great nation.

Precisely the mentality that has caused you to willingly give up your freedom for slavery.

[Imadrongo]

Trevor,

I am no more empowered than you. I am merely pointing out that you yourself are one of the inferior people that superior people shit on. And you agree with their ethic!

Nobody is shitting on me. I am making decisions and they are making decisions. We interact and play the game accordingly. I don't believe in having any "rights" or whatnot and don't hold anything against the government. You are a great embodiment of Nietzsche's "ressentiment", his slave revolt. ;)

The problem is, they are now indoctrinated. It comes at a cost -- freedom for fighting ability? I think not! I'd rather learn how to fight on my own, thank you very much.

Everything comes with a cost. Learning to fight with military training is going to cost much much much less than doing it on your own. They would actually pay me to be trained and I would have training on modern weapons. I suspect that they would turn away people with mental disorders so you would probably have to train yourself.

NM: Hahahaha at democracy making a great nation.

TS: Precisely the mentality that has caused you to willingly give up your freedom for slavery.

Slavery?? I won't be the slave. :) Freedom? Power is freedom. Sorry to say this when you have clearly been raised to believe the polar opposite.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Could someone else please give Neil a proper lesson in social studies? I have made my case thoroughly, and feel no need to correct any more of his inaccuracies. I simply cannot tolerate arrogance.

[Dan Rowden]

One of the interesting things about Americans is how neurotic they are. I'm not sure what part of Trevor's analysis explains that.

That's a pretty vague charge. Neurotic in what ways?

It's a combination of things and not immediately easy to delineate. There's a sort of neurotic thread that runs through all western societies but America seems to have a peculiarly strong version of it. It's partly the Oprah effect, partly the fact that half the population is in therapy for something (and the other half may well need to be); it's partly the constant need Americans have to talk themselves up - which I think is due, again, in part, to their deeper feelings of cultural inferiority to Europe. I think a lot of the American personality amounts to a form of compensation behaviour. What Trevor said about politics is probably a factor as well, but for me that's mitigated by the seldom recognised truth that people don't really want the truth from their politicians or government - unless it's entirely positive. Then there's the kind of neurosis that comes with Protestant forms of Xianity. Then there's the Jewish thing. Jew and neurosis are words that go together in any sentence.

I'll expand a bit when I get myself a new keyboard. I'm using a "natural" one at the moment and I don't touch type. It's hurting my brain.

[sue hindmarsh]

Kevin,

Posting the photos and words of thanks to the people you stayed with is in no way spritually inspiring. Even your posting them in Worldly matters doesn't give validation to the necessity to post them on the forum. You would have written privately to thank those people. And the photos could also have been shown privately; for though they are somewhat interesting, they are basically just holiday snaps.

And your idea of why you did the trip -

I knew I had a problem (with Americans), and that living in the US for a few months should help cure me of that. And I'm happy to say that I think it succeeded.

- doesn't say much for your strenght of mind. I know how difficult obsessions can be, but throwing yourself into them isn't always the only way to deal with them.

And hey, going half way round the world to confirm that -

Ultimately all pain arises from disconnection to reality

- seems a bit after the fact, since you wrote a whole book on the subject twenty years ago.

And this bit:

I still particularly despise American religion, egotism, and materialism, but I am now able to see it as far more human than I was previously able to.

You went to India with much the same purpose. India didn't teach you anything?

I also find myself being a lot more sympathetic or understanding of the situation or the struggle Americans find themselves in. And I think I'm now more aware of the suffering of Americans, and know their pain.

Ok, who are you? And what have you done with Kevin Solway?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Sue, while your questions are interesting and challenging in a good way as well as the possible answers of Kevin will be, you leave yourself open to some criticism too.

It's all too feminine to confuse shape and form with content. Why would a sage behave like this, dress like that, not do this, always want to do such and so? Sure there are contemporary elements to nurturing and spreading ones wisdom but they are always in movement and change and certainly shouldn't worry other aspiring sages too much.

Why not worry more about Dan flip-flopping between comedy and bored comments and threatening to delete nonsense topics? If he's that unstable on a message board I wonder on what roller coaster he is when not behind the keyboard. Or perhaps the keyboard brings it out?

Or lets analyze David's attempt in censoring the 'QRS' word because of his irritations. This is a long way from the " unconventional discussion forum suitable only for the bravehearted" or the definition of genius being "the infinite capacity for giving pain." Compared with Solway alone with beard at the customs of Homeland Security, the general discomfort, wear and tear of traveling and its effects on the contents of the mind, I'm not so sure what your definition of 'masculinity' has evolved into these days.

And doesn't your post show an attachment to a sort of 'example' to follow, a rigidness in how you attach lifestyle and expression to a certain spiritual maturity? While there's certainly a connection, it's really severely limiting to connect wisdom to not traveling, not sharing pictures or experiences or promoting ones ideas by name and number each and every post. If everybody starts to expect ruthless, cutting edge and sober posts, it would be about time to do the reverse once in a while!

I for one am really looking forward to the way Kevin will reflect upon his journey and the people he met, in the light of his philosophy. Perhaps he could have started of with this right away but his expression of gratitude is a very primal psychological response to the wealth of experiences and reception of kindness and generosity he might have experienced. The basic law of exchange not even a sage can avoid: one receives and one gives back. It's like breathing and cannot be helped, only perhaps by minimizing receiving gifts or charity of any kind. This might mean not coming out much, or not breathing at all perhaps.

I also find myself being a lot more sympathetic or understanding of the situation or the struggle Americans find themselves in. And I think I'm now more aware of the suffering of Americans, and know their pain.

Ok, who are you? And what have you done with Kevin Solway?

One never stops learning or growing, even changing some of our views, because that's the nature of one's make-up. Even understanding the nature of Reality doesn't change that a bit.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Okay, that's enough.

The money spent on this bullshit escapade could have printed "Poison". I'm a bit sick of people who have money and give a flying fuck about wisdom.

Dan, you know darned well because I repeated the answer to you at least 20 times as you kept drunkenly asking "Why Kevin?'

I had a great deal of work that I needed done around the house that I did not have the physical strength to do on my own. Furthermore, some of the work Kevin did here, I could not hire anyone locally to do - like repair the damage from Hurricane Charlie. I learned that Kevin was financially struggling and did not have any particular ties to stay right where he was, and figured he might prefer to spend a few warm months in Florida rather than trying to struggle through another cold Australian winter without turning the heat on. I had work I needed done, Kevin was capable of doing it, and as a bonus, we both got to expand our horizons. I would not have contributed to the printing of "Poison" because that is not something I needed. I needed help, and Kevin was a bargain.

Plus, Kevin's explanation of some things that I'd misunderstood what he meant, that I get the impression he never would have told me except in person, was far more enlightening than reading every word Kevin ever wrote could possibly have been. For example, after reading "Letters Between Enemies" where when he was young, he mentioned to David that he heard a voice with an American accent complimenting him on what he had done so far. Neither Americans nor Canadians would have understood that hearing something with an American accent is actually Australian slang for a lie. That changes the whole meaning of that passage.

Furthermore, as Kevin does not post much, I would not have found out that he seems to have a bit more positive view of the nature of women than David and Dan have, but when that topic came up previously, he seemed to waffle on it a bit. While here, he did mention some views of women that were still quite negative, and I'm sure that we did not hash through his entire opinion on women while he was here. I hope he decides to participate in the Zubaty thread. There still seems to be much ground to cover.

I know how difficult obsessions can be, but throwing yourself into them isn't always the only way to deal with them.

And hey, going half way round the world to confirm that -

Ultimately all pain arises from disconnection to reality



- seems a bit after the fact, since you wrote a whole book on the subject twenty years ago.

By your complaint, obviously he had to repeat himself. It is true that throwing one's self into reality isn't the only way to deal with a disconnection from reality, but it looks like an effective way to get connected to reality. Another way to deal with a disconnection from reality is to sit back and complain about people who go out to seek the truth of the matter first-hand.

And this bit:

I still particularly despise American religion, egotism, and materialism, but I am now able to see it as far more human than I was previously able to.



You went to India with much the same purpose. India didn't teach you anything?

What's India supposed to teach him about America? I get the impression that India dislikes us even more than Australia, and I previously had no idea how bad of an opinion that Australians had of Americans. I knew there were various countries that hated America, but the fact that even nations that we consider our friends despise us, well that was an eye-opener.

I also find myself being a lot more sympathetic or understanding of the situation or the struggle Americans find themselves in. And I think I'm now more aware of the suffering of Americans, and know their pain.

Ok, who are you? And what have you done with Kevin Solway?

Kevin,

Posting the photos and words of thanks to the people you stayed with is in no way spritually inspiring. Even your posting them in Worldly matters doesn't give validation to the necessity to post them on the forum. You would have written privately to thank those people. And the photos could also have been shown privately; for though they are somewhat interesting, they are basically just holiday snaps.

Kelly Jones, what are you doing posting under Sue's account?

[David Quinn]

Elizabeth wrote:

Dan, you know darned well because I repeated the answer to you at least 20 times as you kept drunkenly asking "Why Kevin?'

Hahahaha. We've all had that experience with Dan. The drunken, incoherent repetitions, that is. Having to sit through them gives new meaning to the word "tedium".

Dan has a lot of quality about him, which I respect greatly, but when he has a few beers he becomes a completely different person.

And the funny thing is, he honestly believes that he doesn't have any psychological addictions.

-

[David Quinn]

Sue wrote:

And what have you done with Kevin Solway?

I've been wondering about that myself.

While I can see value in Kevin's trip, there are some elements to it that leave a bad taste in my mouth. I have to say that I personally wouldn't have embarked on a trip of that kind, in the manner that he did.

I'm not sure what I find more distasteful - the blinkered, over-excited eagerness with which he planned the trip, his willingness to be Elizabeth's sex slave for a few weeks, the shallow, conventional views on American women which he uttered while over there, the renewing of his on-going relationship with a middle-aged vacuous female called Irena, the uninspired tourist photos, or the Oprah-like comments that he offered as justification for his trip at the beginning of this thread. I guess they're all on the same level.

He did meet some young blokes, both from the forum and beyond, so there are some positives there. But he seems to have spent the trip in passive absorption mode, which probably undercut the value of their meeting him to some degree.

I just wonder what the 25 year-old Kevin Solway, author of Poison for the Heart, would have made of it all. Incredulous laughter instantly springs to mind. Kevin's greatest fear back then was the thought of being known as a "crazy poet" - meaning that he wanted to impact on the world as a pure man of God, rather than as a mere author of strange philosophic writings. I used to like that Kevin Solway. I'm not sure that I like this older, more Cow-like Kevin.

Kevin says that he has been strengthened by the trip. I really hope that it will inspire him to abandon the banal, worldly, householder mode of existence that he has fallen into in recent years and put some fire back into his belly once more. If that happens, the trip could then be considered a great success.

One can only dream and hope, I suppose.

One thing I did find interesting about the holiday snaps was how similar Joel, William, Greg and Matt look. They all seem to be cut from the same cloth. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but it is interesting nonetheless.

-

[Unidian]

Fascinating thread. I think that in light of all this, I will finally stop using the term "QRS," because for the first time, it really doesn't seem to have any meaning.

I wonder if this three-way implosion is temporary or permanent. Either way, it's interesting.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Uni: if Kevin shaves his beard, it's permanant.

[Unidian]

I'm not thinking about Kevin so much as Dan and David. It's my understanding that Kevin has been "out" for a while. The sniping between the two D's is a more interesting development.

If QRS "as we know it" ends (for those of us who believe it ever existed), I wonder what will become of the three as individuals? It's really none of our business, of course, but still an interesting line of thought.

And, for the record, I'm not coming at this from an "on high" sort of perspective. Some things I was involved with for a while recently imploded as well, so it's really just an interest in the psychology of these things for me. Things do fall apart, the center cannot hold.

And now I need to go actually look at the photos and such, because I disagree with the strange idea that they shouldn't have been posted. Kevin has every right to discuss his trip and I can't see why he would be frowned upon for doing so, except perhaps for the "embarrassment value" in a "sage" taking such a trip. But if that's the motivation, wouldn't it have been better to remain totally silent than give it further attention?

[Trevor Salyzyn]

If they give up their attachments to each other, I'm sure each of their philosophies will benefit. Very rarely do you see great philosophers in groups. The only example of a trio I can think of is Camus/Sartre/Merleau-Ponty, although with Nietzsche's peculiar mental state, you could consider Nietzsche/Nietzsche/Wagner a trio.

[Unidian]

Maybe so.

Also, the picture of food from Las Vegas and labeled "American breakfast" appears to be of a Mexican dish not normally served for breakfast.

I had no idea Kevin went to so many places. All around, it looks like a very interesting trip.

And, finally, the button to save a post as a draft is on the left side, which causes me to accidentally submit as a draft an average of twice before successfully posting. Someone should reverse it.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Unidian wrote:

Some things I was involved with for a while recently imploded as well, so it's really just an interest in the psychology of these things for me. Things do fall apart, the center cannot hold.

Yes, it seems to me that fellow spiritual thinkers become acutely aware of the other’s repeated imperfections, and the fact that they do not change very easily can cause repeated confrontations in discussion. However, the stronger one becomes, the less the criticism affects you emotionally, and you’re able to get over it easier. And hopefully the continuous criticism gives the person the motivation to try to alter stagnant habits, dishonest ways of thinking and so on.

However, I think some imperfections are more genetically hard-wired and hormonal, and therefore much more difficult to transcend than others. And everyone may have traces of these, which makes friendship a possible war zone at all times… (so basically what I’m saying here is that the pajama party days are over boys, time to shape up…)

[Dan Rowden]

Nat,

That you perceive sniping and implosion says a great deal about how your mind works. All I see is people being honest about their perceptions. You love the drama, don't you?

Stick with GED. That sort of thing seems to suit you well - and that's neither sarcasm nor a snipe.

[Unidian]

Denial suits you well in multiple ways. Not a snipe? I agree. It was more like a slap in the face - or at least it would have been if I were hurt by it. I'm not, though.

I explained my motives above. If that qualifies as "drama," then yes, I do love "drama." That's what all human experience is, don't you think?

And you're right, the GED is a lot of fun. :)

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I just wonder what the 25 year-old Kevin Solway, author of Poison for the Heart, would have made of it all. Incredulous laughter instantly springs to mind. Kevin's greatest fear back then was the thought of being known as a "crazy poet" - meaning that he wanted to impact on the world as a pure man of God, rather than as a mere author of strange philosophic writings. I used to like that Kevin Solway. I'm not sure that I like this older, more Cow-like Kevin.

Nietzsche embraced a horse when he was in his mid-forties.

Perhaps we've got now the indication of the half-life of the average sage?

Actually I think he's probably doing great, starting a second youth at last!

[Unidian]

"Embraced a horse?" Hmm, this is a Nietzsche story I haven't heard, and that's probably for the best. LOL...

[Dan Rowden]

As for Kevin's pics, they are to me rather soulless tourist snaps, a gazzillion of which one can already get on the Net. Of course, he may have many more interesting ones that he's yet to post. I'm sure Kevin's eventual analysis of the culture he immersed himself in will be more inspiring, much like his memoirs of the India trip.

[Dan Rowden]

Denial suits you well in multiple ways. Not a snipe? I agree. It was more like a slap in the face - or at least it would have been if I were hurt by it. I'm not, though.

I explained my motives above. If that qualifies as "drama," then yes, I do love "drama."

MY final word on this particular point: since you seem to understand, and always have done a little better than most, that QRS is not a real entity, your observation about an implosion doesn't make any sense. There's nothing to implode.

[Dan Rowden]

"Embraced a horse?" Hmm, this is a Nietzsche story I haven't heard, and that's probably for the best. LOL...

Surely you have! That's what he reputedly did right before he went "mad". A cart horse was being whipped and he embraced it in apparent horror at the cruelty. Either that or it was a particularly cute horse.