Why it is awkward to say "I love you"

[sschaula]

That definitely sounds like a modern day relationship, but it doesn't sound like love.

It's up to each individual to love correctly. How to live correctly.

It's hard. Not many do it right. But a few reclaim their lives. Steven Covey comes to mind. In his book he talked about how he and his wife were having problems, and they found a way to sort it out and deepen their friendship.

So, yeah I'm optimistic, but you can have your cake and eat it too. It's possible.

[Laird]

To add to what Scott said, with love comes responsibility. With the love of food comes the responsibility to eat a balanced and healthy diet. With the love of breath comes the responsibility to avoid polluted air and cigarettes. With the love of a relationship comes the responsibility to be open and honest about what's bothering each person so that the two partners can work towards a mutually beneficial state, even if they never absolutely find it.

So...

So, are we seeing that love and feeling good don't always even correlate?

...yes, something that doesn't always feel good can still be love.

[sschaula]

Maybe when dealing with such complex issues, we shouldn't consider what's "good" or "bad" and instead, consider what's "better".

[Laird]

Scott, you are a man after my own heart. I fully agree with your suggestion.

[sue hindmarsh]

Elizabeth,

EI: This is really disturbing, especially knowing that you were responsible for two children during their critical development phase.

Your above response to my post on the abhorrent use of children by adults to get their emotional fix, shows just how difficult a topic this is for you and, I know, for many other people to approach. I actually wrote that this would be the case in that same post:

SH: They (children), having been dragged down into the emotional abyss by their loving adults, now emerge fully grown with gapping emotional black-holes of their own that need to be fed.

It’s extremely difficult (and in most cases, completely impossible) for emotional junkies (most of the human population) to be able to see anything past their need for the next fix. So it isn’t at all surprising to me that the points I raised in my post would be twisted by others into a demented justification for the continued torturing of children.

Even your liberal use of references backed up what I was saying about the unsuitability of most adults to have anything at all to do with young lives.

--

But anyway – you were saying something about my having been “responsible” for two children. From your study of them, you have observed…

--

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I have little idea what your children are like - you mentioned your son is quiet and easy to live with, and David speaks highly of him. I have no idea what his internal life is like. You mentioned that you have nothing in common with your daughter, and have not lived with her since she was - I think you said 7. You know very well that all I have on the matter is results of professional studies on children, and have no way to specifically cite your children as examples either in support or as exceptions. Of course, many parents consider their children to be exceptions... Based on broad studies, it is not unreasonable for me to find your statement disturbing.

I'm still waiting for you to present either a logical or an empirical data based rebuttal to the points I made, rather than just the reaction of an indignant mother.
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[DHodges]

Even your liberal use of references backed up what I was saying about the unsuitability of most adults to have anything at all to do with young lives.

What do you think of the idea of requiring some sort of permit, and perhaps some sort of training class, before you are allowed to have kids?

A lot of people seem to fall into having kids with no idea of what they are getting into, and all sorts of bizarre misconceptions of what it will be like.

Or would this be the government butting in where it doesn't belong? It seems to me that allowing untrained people to have kids is kind of like not requiring any training before you get a driver's license.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

One moment - I think child-raising deserves a thread of its own... let me restart this on the main forum-
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[Laird]

Maybe when dealing with such complex issues, we shouldn't consider what's "good" or "bad" and instead, consider what's "better".

Let's though keep the concept of "good" so that the dichotomy, instead of bad/good, becomes good/better.

Then we have:

Love is that which sustains us in the present moment and which allows us to improve in the next.

[Pye]

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Sue, I frequently find your indictments against conventional parenting/mothering worth thought, for if indeed we are producing life-long children with standard patriarchal family practices, then we become just as alert to the impact of anything we do. This means we can do other things.

Since you are sharp with some not-to-do's, I wonder if you might say something about the things that you do do, or, some notion of the philosophic grounding upon which you interface with your kid, or, how you answer his/her questions and/or what you teach him about the world or want him to know, for I would imagine with such sharp criticism of mainstream mothering, you would not be leaving this part of his impress up to someone else. So what exactly grounds your dynamics with him; how is it appropriate to parent, since in your case, I assume the answer cannot be not to parent at all.



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[sue hindmarsh]

Pye wrote:

Sue, I frequently find your indictments against conventional parenting/mothering worth thought, for if indeed we are producing life-long children with standard patriarchal family practices, then we become just as alert to the impact of anything we do. This means we can do other things.

There’s really not a lot to “do”. Just taking your own mind seriously is really all that is necessary. From that one act, everything else follows.

Since you are sharp with some not-to-do's, I wonder if you might say something about the things that you do do,

The early years of a child’s life are extremely important. Therefore, both David Quinn and I were sensitive to each stage of Tristram’s development. We’d tap into his mind-set and provide the best environment for that period. For example, to nurture his imagination we’d create games with him which would grow and develop as he did. We also provided toys, furniture, books, art materials and sporting equipment suitable for each developmental stage. And to aid the evolution of his self-reliance we’d go for long “adventure” walks where he, as the “leader”, would choose the direction we were to travel. (But, of course, as his faithful lieutenants, we’d advise him of approaching hazards, such as roads, railway crossings and creeks.)

Most important of all was our use of clear and well defined boundaries. Maintained consistently, this enabled him to know where he stood with us, and the world; thereby allowing him to feel secure and at peace within himself.

or, some notion of the philosophic grounding upon which you interface with your kid,

I’ve always treated him like a competent human being by being aware of, and respecting his needs and wants.

or, how you answer his/her questions

I’m not sure what questions you mean. Perhaps you’re thinking of questions like, “Is Santa real?”, or “Will the Easter Bunny bringing me lots of eggs?” I'll take it that you mean these sort of questions, as they are the basic type that children often ask.

We've never celebrated any of those 'events', therefore those questions didn’t arise until he was older (3 or 4), and by that time he was old enough to be told that both were just characters from made-up stories. Of course, he still got presents and eggs from cousins, aunts, uncles, and grandparents. But he put a stop to that around the age of 8 or 9 years old, when he said that it was silly them buying him things for those occasions when he didn’t celebrate them – and that was the end of that. I remember he did however quickly add that due to him not receiving anything for those events, he should be given much larger birthday presents – “Just to be fair”. That didn’t quite work out the way he would have liked, as the family members took offense at his not sharing in their madness and stopped giving him any gifts. He took it all in his stride – but each year since, David and I get handed a longer and longer birthday ‘wish list’.

Other questions such as, "Do you love me" or "Do you like me" have never been asked. He's never had call to doubt our affection for him, as he has always been shown consistent care and respect.

and/or what you teach him about the world or want him to know,

Growing up as he has in a household that values thinking, it’ll come as no surprise that he also considers thinking important. But of course, being only 15 years of age, thinking takes a distant second place to his first loves: Warhammer, music, computer games, and his mates.

He attends a government run school, is a ‘B’ student, is interested in environmental issues, likes reading, has his favourite TV shows (Lost and The Mighty Boosh), and, as yet, hasn’t found any of the girls in his year appealing. The major difference between his family life and that of his friends, is that he gets to converse with people who respect thought. This has meant that he has grown to value his own mind - which is something that his friends aren't encouraged to do.

for I would imagine with such sharp criticism of mainstream mothering, you would not be leaving this part of his impress up to someone else.

It’s true; I wouldn’t let most adults raise a puppy, let alone a child. But every now and then you run into people who show that they possess a degree of respect for children and their development. When Tris was 8months old I was very lucky to find a Family Day-Care Mum with this quality. I paid her to take care of him a few hours a day, two or three days a week. He finished with her when he started pre-school.

So, for the first five years of his life David, the Day-Care Mum and I shared the work of his development. Together, we tried to give him the best start possible. But I would have been happy to share his early development with other like minded people, except that they were then, as they are now, extremely thin on the ground.

So what exactly grounds your dynamics with him; how is it appropriate to parent, since in your case, I assume the answer cannot be not to parent at all.

It’s the old story of “if things had been different I wouldn’t…” But the truth of the matter is that you can only do the best you can, depending on the circumstances.

Those circumstances were that over a year before I found out that I was pregnant, I’d sent my daughter, who was seven at the time, to live with my sister. I did this because of two related reasons: firstly, because I was unsure of what I was doing with my life and needed the time and energy to work that out; and secondly, because I knew my confusion was causing her grief.

In the time between sending my daughter away and finding myself pregnant, I’d grown to better understand my limitations and my strengths. With this knowledge, I made the decision to carry on with the pregnancy, confident that I had the ability to raise a child, and also develop philosophically. Looking back now I see that I was mostly correct in my evaluation of both my own mind, and my ability to once again become a parent. That’s not to say that it has all gone smoothly – for it hasn’t, but all in all I’d say that I’ve done a good job of raising Tris. And he’d agree.

The bottom line is that there is no secret to raising sane children. All that is needed is sane parents. And there's the rub, for it is the very opposite of sanity that drives people to bring children into the world, and to then educate them so that they repeat the process.

But what if the human race caught the sanity bug? Then you'd have each individual valuing their own mind by living according to what is true. There would be fewer children – but they would be much happier, because the loving care they received arose from the cold, hard reasoning of the sane, and not the mean spirited selfish lies of the insane.

-
Sue

[Tomas]

May I braid your hair?

Are you allergic to dandruff?

We're havin' an earthquake.

Are you goin' insane.

A California earthquake

You're shakin our head.

On our waterbed

Whoa! Look out!

Nowhere to run

The big one






Tomas (the tank)


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[Pye]

Sue writes [of parenting]:

There’s really not a lot to “do”. Just taking your own mind seriously is really all that is necessary. From that one act, everything else follows.

And of course this is a great deal of doing, this taking one's own mind seriously. This is any or all of what any or all teaching can do, direct the individual to themselves. To be sure, this implies a tremendous belief in the construction of every individual - that there is a mind life toward which one can be directed and that taken seriously enough and/or properly explored, that "good things" will come of it.

Sue: The early years of a child’s life are extremely important.

Yes, and perhaps even more profoundly so than we realize even now. This has been the impetus for my interest in feral children, for many qualities one assumes to be so endeared to the nature of the human being are not auto-triggered at all; not even there, if the supporting conditions for it aren't there either.

Sue: Most important of all was our use of clear and well defined boundaries. Maintained consistently, this enabled him to know where he stood with us, and the world; thereby allowing him to feel secure and at peace within himself.

Qualifications of what you mean by boundaries here? In other words, would this include "adult" and "child" categories; or even extend all the way to yours and David's spiritual causalism as relationship to the world; or any other way you would approach a description of those boundaries?

Pye: or, how you answer his/her questions
Sue: I’m not sure what questions you mean. Perhaps you’re thinking of questions like, “Is Santa real?”, or “Will the Easter Bunny bringing me lots of eggs?” I'll take it that you mean these sort of questions, as they are the basic type that children often ask.

(yes, you are doing exactly to answer undirected generalities with what strikes you as specific to them.)

Sue: Other questions such as, "Do you love me" or "Do you like me" have never been asked. He's never had call to doubt our affection for him, as he has always been shown consistent care and respect.

Sue, what do you think accounts for the immense insecurity on the part of most children for constant reassurance of this? Might it be the parent's "loving" behaviour toward them itself? (and/or what about that loving behaviour causes this insecurity?) It's especially paradoxical, since these self-same parental practices in the modern world are supposed to be creating paragons of self-esteem. Clearly, it is the way one is directed to themselves for self-reliance or what they are directed towards, and I would estimate that the failure of these programs of esteem is based on an extraverted value system; that is, what and whom needs pleased in order to raise one's sense of self. I'd be interested to know how you see this - what you see as the source of these insecure questions of love and like-value in children.

It’s the old story of “if things had been different I wouldn’t…” But the truth of the matter is that you can only do the best you can, depending on the circumstances.

Those circumstances were that over a year before I found out that I was pregnant, I’d sent my daughter, who was seven at the time, to live with my sister. I did this because of two related reasons: firstly, because I was unsure of what I was doing with my life and needed the time and energy to work that out; and secondly, because I knew my confusion was causing her grief.

In the time between sending my daughter away and finding myself pregnant, I’d grown to better understand my limitations and my strengths. With this knowledge, I made the decision to carry on with the pregnancy, confident that I had the ability to raise a child, and also develop philosophically. Looking back now I see that I was mostly correct in my evaluation of both my own mind, and my ability to once again become a parent. That’s not to say that it has all gone smoothly – for it hasn’t, but all in all I’d say that I’ve done a good job of raising Tris. And he’d agree.

The bottom line is that there is no secret to raising sane children. All that is needed is sane parents. And there's the rub, for it is the very opposite of sanity that drives people to bring children into the world, and to then educate them so that they repeat the process.

But what if the human race caught the sanity bug? Then you'd have each individual valuing their own mind by living according to what is true. There would be fewer children – but they would be much happier, because the loving care they received arose from the cold, hard reasoning of the sane, and not the mean spirited selfish lies of the insane.

I place this here again in appreciation of its candor, as it gives an aspect of you that maybe few here would have assembled from the sharp edges of your philosophy. After all, patrician mores place the mother in open season to anyone's criticism and second judgment (as though "anyone" is the best expert). People have come on this site and said some presumptuous things about the mothering of a philosophical woman [you], as their culture has given them license to do everywhere. I see largely nothing but cool reason and warm follow-through in your realities above.

Now, if I put together the lack of original nature that feral children show us; the strong agreement with you in the importance of the earliest human years of formation; the obvious connection between the internal contents of a given human from exterior conditioning (causality); the paramount importance of this "taking your own mind seriously" (and hence the potential of this in everyone) - putting all that together, I would conclude by hoping that your approach of forming self-reliance and respect for one's thinking life is somehow extended to your daughter's as well. For it isn't 'nature' that has been assuming all along that females cannot think.