A test on choices...
The role:
You are a husband
The situation:
You are unhappy with your life. This unhappiness is harming your marriage and causing your child to feel alarmed that Mommy and Daddy are getting a divorce. Therapy has not worked and your wife is at the end of her rope.
The choices:
1- You can take prozac. This makes you happy enough to stay stable and allow your child to continue growing up with an intact (though perhaps somewhat imperfect) home and a wife that can get along better with you.
2- You do not take prozac and you end up divorced. Your child has a broken home. Your wife is uprooted. You might end up happy in the end, but you at least know this particular problem is solved for yourself.
Which do you chose and why?
YOU decide...
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MKFaizi
Leave the marriage and the child entirely. Make an agreement with the wife that you will pay child support but you will not be a part of the child's life. That or she can pay support and not be a part of the child's life.
I think the worst thing about divorce involving a child is the confusion and the long goodbye. A kid is better off with one parent than with two conflicting parents.
Prozac does not save marriages.
Faizi
I think the worst thing about divorce involving a child is the confusion and the long goodbye. A kid is better off with one parent than with two conflicting parents.
Prozac does not save marriages.
Faizi
Re: YOU decide...
I've been on Prozac for years. Prozac does not make you happy. It is a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor (SSRI), an anti-depressant. Being unhappy is not the same as being depressed.Cato wrote:1- You can take prozac. This makes you happy enough to stay stable and allow your child to continue growing up with an intact (though perhaps somewhat imperfect) home and a wife that can get along better with you.
On the other hand, Prozac may allow you to see value, and find happiness, in things that were bringing no joy to you, because you were depressed. When you are depressed, nothing is very interesting or fun. Everything is just a lot of effort.
No, it sure doesn't. In fact, if you were depressed, you would likely not be able to take the action needed to end the marriage. You would likely sit and do nothing. Being on Prozac, you might find the will to do what you need to do, be that divorce, or getting therapy, or whatever it is you need to do.Marsha wrote:Prozac does not save marriages.
If you stayed away from the Prozac, if you needed it, you will not end up happy. You will just stay depressed.
If not for Prozac, or something like it, I would either be dead now, or a meth addict (meth also being a very effective anti-depressant).
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MKFaizi
I hate to say it but, if not for Zoloft, I might be dead.
I have taken Zoloft for a number of years. Maybe, six years. I went for about a year or two taking it only once every week or two. Did all right. Then, I skipped more and more.
Finally, I had a huge anxiety attack so I started back on it on a daily basis. I nearly hit rock bottom.
What I wonder about is what may be a masking effect. I used to believe that I was bipolar but I don't think so now. I do think that I am a severely depressed person -- not on purpose; not someone prone to melancholy; not sad due to situation; but someone who is physiologically disposed to depression.
In answer to anyone's question, I do think that talking to a counselor could help but I do not have time for that. I also think that most counselors are adept at situational depression. I do not think many counselors are proficient with counseling a severely depressed person.
A severely depressed person is one of reasonable intelligence who is oppressed by depression. A depressed person is not unhappy. A depressed person is one who exists beneath a great weight that has no social definition. I am not depressed because I am old or because I am ugly or because I do not make enough money.
I feel no hurt or rage.
I just feel this huge thumb; monkey on my back. Kind of like carrying around an elephant; kind of like having a Siamese twin that cannot be cut away. It is not even that I feel it. It is a fact of my existence.
It is not hurt. It is the weight of a huge stone that cannot be taken off. You carry it. It is just a fact. Kind of like having an extra face or head made of granite.
I hate to have to take Zoloft but, from experience, depression would kill me if I stopped completely.
Depression is a cancer.
Faizi
I have taken Zoloft for a number of years. Maybe, six years. I went for about a year or two taking it only once every week or two. Did all right. Then, I skipped more and more.
Finally, I had a huge anxiety attack so I started back on it on a daily basis. I nearly hit rock bottom.
What I wonder about is what may be a masking effect. I used to believe that I was bipolar but I don't think so now. I do think that I am a severely depressed person -- not on purpose; not someone prone to melancholy; not sad due to situation; but someone who is physiologically disposed to depression.
In answer to anyone's question, I do think that talking to a counselor could help but I do not have time for that. I also think that most counselors are adept at situational depression. I do not think many counselors are proficient with counseling a severely depressed person.
A severely depressed person is one of reasonable intelligence who is oppressed by depression. A depressed person is not unhappy. A depressed person is one who exists beneath a great weight that has no social definition. I am not depressed because I am old or because I am ugly or because I do not make enough money.
I feel no hurt or rage.
I just feel this huge thumb; monkey on my back. Kind of like carrying around an elephant; kind of like having a Siamese twin that cannot be cut away. It is not even that I feel it. It is a fact of my existence.
It is not hurt. It is the weight of a huge stone that cannot be taken off. You carry it. It is just a fact. Kind of like having an extra face or head made of granite.
I hate to have to take Zoloft but, from experience, depression would kill me if I stopped completely.
Depression is a cancer.
Faizi
Marsha
Years ago I was diagnosed with depression. Not the kind of temporary depression that has some kind of cause, like grief, but the kind that is there all the time, no matter what the outer circumstances.
It was recommended to me that I take anti-depressants but I wouldn't. I was too proud. I did not want to have my 'real self' masked by medication. I wanted to experience 'how I really was' no matter how unpleasant or incapacitating.
I insisted on finding a solution without chemical help. In fact I looked down my nose at people who accepted this chemical help. I was going to do it on my own. I didn't want some little pill to fix it for me. I was going to get to the bottom of this situation & I was going to fix it myself.
You made a different decision. I'm not arguing with your decision. I've grown up a bit since the days when I sneered at people who chose a different route than I did. But one thing does come to mind: why are you so dense & closed-minded on the subject of spiritual teachers? Why do you take every opportunity to sneer at people who find some value in this that you do not find? Why do you continue to assert, in spite of massive evidence to the contrary, that people expect a teacher to 'give' them enlightenment or understanding or somehow 'do the work' for them? Why do you feel compelled to say - every single time the topic comes up - that you would never follow a guru, accept any help from a guru, have anything to do with a guru, etc as if this makes you somehow superior to those who would?
Even if you think a guru is nothing but a crutch, it just pisses me off that someone who takes anti-depressants every day feels free to heap contempt on the whole idea of anyone being helped by a teacher.
Look to your own goddam glass house.
.
Years ago I was diagnosed with depression. Not the kind of temporary depression that has some kind of cause, like grief, but the kind that is there all the time, no matter what the outer circumstances.
It was recommended to me that I take anti-depressants but I wouldn't. I was too proud. I did not want to have my 'real self' masked by medication. I wanted to experience 'how I really was' no matter how unpleasant or incapacitating.
I insisted on finding a solution without chemical help. In fact I looked down my nose at people who accepted this chemical help. I was going to do it on my own. I didn't want some little pill to fix it for me. I was going to get to the bottom of this situation & I was going to fix it myself.
You made a different decision. I'm not arguing with your decision. I've grown up a bit since the days when I sneered at people who chose a different route than I did. But one thing does come to mind: why are you so dense & closed-minded on the subject of spiritual teachers? Why do you take every opportunity to sneer at people who find some value in this that you do not find? Why do you continue to assert, in spite of massive evidence to the contrary, that people expect a teacher to 'give' them enlightenment or understanding or somehow 'do the work' for them? Why do you feel compelled to say - every single time the topic comes up - that you would never follow a guru, accept any help from a guru, have anything to do with a guru, etc as if this makes you somehow superior to those who would?
Even if you think a guru is nothing but a crutch, it just pisses me off that someone who takes anti-depressants every day feels free to heap contempt on the whole idea of anyone being helped by a teacher.
Look to your own goddam glass house.
.
Depression
Marsha -
Good description. Many people seem to assume that if you are depressed, you are depressed about something.
According to Listening to Prozac, many people reported the experience of being on Prozac as revealing their true self, which had been masked behind depression.
Good description. Many people seem to assume that if you are depressed, you are depressed about something.
In my opinion, depression as Marsha describes it (and as I experience it) is a chemical problem - probably something to do with serotonin - and so a chemical solution is completely appropriate.Shardrol wrote:I insisted on finding a solution without chemical help.
I'm curious about that. Why did you think you had a 'real self', and what did you think was superior about it that you wanted to experience it even if it was incapacitating? Was it an issue of authenticity?I did not want to have my 'real self' masked by medication. I wanted to experience 'how I really was' no matter how unpleasant or incapacitating.
According to Listening to Prozac, many people reported the experience of being on Prozac as revealing their true self, which had been masked behind depression.
Re: Depression
My guess would be that the brain chemicals influence mood & that mood influences brain chemicals & there are various ways of dealing with it, coming from either side.DHodges wrote:In my opinion, depression as Marsha describes it (and as I experience it) is a chemical problem - probably something to do with serotonin - and so a chemical solution is completely appropriate.Shardrol wrote:I insisted on finding a solution without chemical help.
In my own case, I was talking about some 20 years ago, when I had very rigid ideas about what I would & wouldn't do. At the time I was completely unwilling to try a chemical solution but in retrospect I can't say that I'm sure it wouldn't have been helpful.
I should have made it more clear in my post that the reason I put 'real self' in quotes was because it was an idea I had at the time that no longer makes any sense to me. I used to think there was a particular way that I was, which was pretty much however I felt at any moment, & that attempts to change this through any deliberate means were some sort of betrayal of integrity. I now view this as nonsense.I'm curious about that. Why did you think you had a 'real self', and what did you think was superior about it that you wanted to experience it even if it was incapacitating? Was it an issue of authenticity?Shardrol wrote: I did not want to have my 'real self' masked by medication. I wanted to experience 'how I really was' no matter how unpleasant or incapacitating.
In the present I still have occasional episodes of depressed states - though nothing like the stranglehold of doom that paralyzed me for years in the past - & I find the chemical caffeine quite helpful. I have no quarrel with people who take Prozac or any other anti-depressant, I was taking issue with what I saw as Marsha's logical inconsistency in condemning one 'crutch' while leaning on what could easily be considered another.
.
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Dan Rowden
- Posts: 5739
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 8:03 pm
- Contact:
There is, frankly, insufficient information in Cato's "scenario" to suggest any particular choices. What is making the person unhappy? One thing we can say is that Prozac and other anti-depressants will not make one happy. Indeed, they will not make one not unhappy. Prozac and other such drugs stabilise a person such that they can function reasonably well. One can be on such drugs and still be unhappy (as most people who take them are, at least to some degree, for reasons such as the fact that such drugs often have unpleasant side-effects). Unhappiness is almost always situational, circumstantial and quintessentially egotistical; depression is different. One can be paralysed by depression even in the most fantastic of circumstances where one would ordinarily expect to be as happy as that proverbial guy Larry.
Taking Prozac because you're "unhappy" is the stupidist thing I've ever heard of. Well, not quite, but it's pretty stupid.
Dan Rowden
Taking Prozac because you're "unhappy" is the stupidist thing I've ever heard of. Well, not quite, but it's pretty stupid.
Dan Rowden
Shardrol said:
In the present I still have occasional episodes of depressed states - though nothing like the stranglehold of doom that paralyzed me for years in the past - & I find the chemical caffeine quite helpful.
Caffeine turns people into non-thinkers. It helps you develop two-pointedness of mind. It makes your mind run ten thousand miles a minute. A person that drinks coffee can't get samadhi. If it works for you, Shardrol, then that's good...but it definitely doesn't work for me.
I'd rather have a person take Prozac than drink caffeine. At least Prozac wouldn't rev up your chatterbox mind.
In the present I still have occasional episodes of depressed states - though nothing like the stranglehold of doom that paralyzed me for years in the past - & I find the chemical caffeine quite helpful.
Caffeine turns people into non-thinkers. It helps you develop two-pointedness of mind. It makes your mind run ten thousand miles a minute. A person that drinks coffee can't get samadhi. If it works for you, Shardrol, then that's good...but it definitely doesn't work for me.
I'd rather have a person take Prozac than drink caffeine. At least Prozac wouldn't rev up your chatterbox mind.
- Scott
I imagine caffeine, like most drugs, affects different people different ways. I tend to be a bit lethargic; I have slow metabolism. Caffeine - I'm talking about one cup of coffee in the morning, not drinking it all day - is helpful in getting over the inertial hump of starting tedious but necessary tasks like paying bills & making dentist appointments.
I'd agree that it is not useful for serious thinking or meditation, just as a kind of kick-start for the slow-moving.
Actually, because of other health issues, I no longer use it, but sometimes I miss it.
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I'd agree that it is not useful for serious thinking or meditation, just as a kind of kick-start for the slow-moving.
Actually, because of other health issues, I no longer use it, but sometimes I miss it.
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MKFaizi
Shardrol,
Certainly, I respect your decision to lick depression on your own. I think that is wonderful. That you have succeeded in doing so is also wonderful.
I tried doing the same thing for many years. I detested the very idea of having to take medication. Worst idea in the world to me. I had seen many people medicated for far less ordeals than I had encountered. I had mononucleosis a few years back. Active virus.
Well, there is nothing you can do for that -- as a cure -- Vitamin B12 can help immensely. Took a few years but I reckon I did get over it. Does not matter whether I did or did not because the oppressive depression or, if you prefer, deep tiredness remains.
I hated the idea of going on medication. I had taken care of myself for years. I could overcome anything. But I had this tremendous boulder on my back. No matter what I tried, I could not shake it. I sincerely wish that I could have shook it. I did shake it many times. Threw it off and went on. But depression is cumulative. It piles up -- becomes the weight of a thousand tons -- not from guilt, not from sadness, not from lack of self esteem; not from anger or hate.
I mean, damn. I don't WANT to be depressed. Sure would not have chosen it. Sucks, big time.
I shook off depression many times. I clearly remember the point that I decided medication would be better than going on in a depressive state. I sat on my carport in a chair and I thought, "God, I hate to go on medicine but, even if it makes me feel like shit, it would have to be better than this."
I did have my blood checked for physiological conditions -- hypothyroidism and this and that. My CBC did show that B12 could help. I really need to take injections.
Anyway, I find no happiness in depression. I don't like it. If it was just a matter of looking at my own glass houses, I would do it. I have done it. I can truthfully say that I have examined every particle of criticism that has ever been put to me over my years writing to Genius. I have no doubt that all criticism of me is true.
Like I care.
You or anyone can say anything of me and it does not matter to me. I will continue to write truth as I see it. The more that I write of truth the more that I am sure of what I write.
Depression is completely separate from truth. I could be a Wall Street broker with the biggest ego imaginable and depression would be the same. It is a cancer. It can kill you.
What I wonder about with Zoloft and Prozac and other things used for major depression is the possibility of a masking effect. My guess is that the cancer of depression is ten times worse than it was six years ago or so when I started taking Zoloft.
Once you get that far along, you kind of have to take the drug or you will plunge down to such a physiological abyss that you will never be capable of getting up. I have tried coming off the medicine. I would like to do it but I do not want to end up in a depressive vegetated state.
It is great if you can kick depression through your mind. I have done that many times. There came a time when I could not do that.
Buddhism has been a great blessing to you. Christianity has staved off depression for many people.
I do not have a religious belief. I have asked Jesus to come into my heart but dude refuses. Buddhism is too complicated. I like the tenets of Islam but it is a depressive state -- submission.
I think you are speaking about depression-lite. You can kick that off. I have kicked it off many times.
I would dearly love to not have to take medicine.
Without turning to religion or ideology, how do you remove the ten thousand ton monkey from your back?
The only thought that comes to my mind is death.
I am not suicidal. But the thought of Zoloft dreams forever is tempting.
Faizi
Certainly, I respect your decision to lick depression on your own. I think that is wonderful. That you have succeeded in doing so is also wonderful.
I tried doing the same thing for many years. I detested the very idea of having to take medication. Worst idea in the world to me. I had seen many people medicated for far less ordeals than I had encountered. I had mononucleosis a few years back. Active virus.
Well, there is nothing you can do for that -- as a cure -- Vitamin B12 can help immensely. Took a few years but I reckon I did get over it. Does not matter whether I did or did not because the oppressive depression or, if you prefer, deep tiredness remains.
I hated the idea of going on medication. I had taken care of myself for years. I could overcome anything. But I had this tremendous boulder on my back. No matter what I tried, I could not shake it. I sincerely wish that I could have shook it. I did shake it many times. Threw it off and went on. But depression is cumulative. It piles up -- becomes the weight of a thousand tons -- not from guilt, not from sadness, not from lack of self esteem; not from anger or hate.
I mean, damn. I don't WANT to be depressed. Sure would not have chosen it. Sucks, big time.
I shook off depression many times. I clearly remember the point that I decided medication would be better than going on in a depressive state. I sat on my carport in a chair and I thought, "God, I hate to go on medicine but, even if it makes me feel like shit, it would have to be better than this."
I did have my blood checked for physiological conditions -- hypothyroidism and this and that. My CBC did show that B12 could help. I really need to take injections.
Anyway, I find no happiness in depression. I don't like it. If it was just a matter of looking at my own glass houses, I would do it. I have done it. I can truthfully say that I have examined every particle of criticism that has ever been put to me over my years writing to Genius. I have no doubt that all criticism of me is true.
Like I care.
You or anyone can say anything of me and it does not matter to me. I will continue to write truth as I see it. The more that I write of truth the more that I am sure of what I write.
Depression is completely separate from truth. I could be a Wall Street broker with the biggest ego imaginable and depression would be the same. It is a cancer. It can kill you.
What I wonder about with Zoloft and Prozac and other things used for major depression is the possibility of a masking effect. My guess is that the cancer of depression is ten times worse than it was six years ago or so when I started taking Zoloft.
Once you get that far along, you kind of have to take the drug or you will plunge down to such a physiological abyss that you will never be capable of getting up. I have tried coming off the medicine. I would like to do it but I do not want to end up in a depressive vegetated state.
It is great if you can kick depression through your mind. I have done that many times. There came a time when I could not do that.
Buddhism has been a great blessing to you. Christianity has staved off depression for many people.
I do not have a religious belief. I have asked Jesus to come into my heart but dude refuses. Buddhism is too complicated. I like the tenets of Islam but it is a depressive state -- submission.
I think you are speaking about depression-lite. You can kick that off. I have kicked it off many times.
I would dearly love to not have to take medicine.
Without turning to religion or ideology, how do you remove the ten thousand ton monkey from your back?
The only thought that comes to my mind is death.
I am not suicidal. But the thought of Zoloft dreams forever is tempting.
Faizi
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MKFaizi
Depression is never a stranglehold of doom.
Far from it. It is not a feeling of doom at all. It is not a feeling. I do not have feelings of hopelessness or doom. Depression is not emotional.
It is a cancer on your back. Picture a large weighty sac growing out of your spinal cord. It is not something that can be surgically removed or that can be palpated by a physician. It is not something that can be attributed to feelings of melancholy. I do not feel melancholy.
Depression is just this THING. I would love to get rid of it but I am not willing to sell myself to do it. I would rather be consumed by the cancer than to relinquish reality to religion or social conformity.
I would rather carry around a weighty sac than to give anything up to an -ism. I would rather die from depression than to conform to anything.
I take medication to stave off the inevitable. If I was diabetic, I would take insulin.
Obviously, the only other person here who understands major depression is David Hodges.
Allah hoo!
Faizi
Far from it. It is not a feeling of doom at all. It is not a feeling. I do not have feelings of hopelessness or doom. Depression is not emotional.
It is a cancer on your back. Picture a large weighty sac growing out of your spinal cord. It is not something that can be surgically removed or that can be palpated by a physician. It is not something that can be attributed to feelings of melancholy. I do not feel melancholy.
Depression is just this THING. I would love to get rid of it but I am not willing to sell myself to do it. I would rather be consumed by the cancer than to relinquish reality to religion or social conformity.
I would rather carry around a weighty sac than to give anything up to an -ism. I would rather die from depression than to conform to anything.
I take medication to stave off the inevitable. If I was diabetic, I would take insulin.
Obviously, the only other person here who understands major depression is David Hodges.
Allah hoo!
Faizi
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R. Steven Coyle
- Posts: 332
- Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:33 pm
- Location: Atlanta, Ga
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MKFaizi
Shardrol wrote:
I have more distrust of so called spiritual teachers than I do of medication. That is saying a lot.
I think spiritual teachers are con men.
I do not trust humans, especially humans who claim to be spriritual teachers.
In his day, I definitely would not have trusted Jesus. Probably why the bitch won't come into my heart now.
If I met the Buddha on the road, I would not trust him.
I do not trust anyone who claims to lead me to enlightenment or salvation or any other thing.
I don't trust a spiritual leader in the way that I do not trust a cop.
I have a problem with authority.
If I believed in God, I would have to believe in a Sufi-type of God. There is enough judgment on earth. The spirit of man -- should it exist -- I think it does because I know that I promote it -- requires ultimate mercy. If I have a belief, I believe in mercy. I give mercy as much as I am capable of giving.
I do not expect mercy for myself.
Mercy -- love of the human being -- is rare.
I don't give a flying fuck if an act of mercy can be defined as an act of ego. Define away. Of course, it can be defined as such. Been there, done that.
Mercy can also surpass ego. Mercy can be complete submission to God.
I am not intererested in a scholarly discussion of Sufism. I have heard it. I am not a Sufi. I would never follow a Sufi leader.
Leaders are false.
Faizi
I am not dense or close minded.why are you so dense & closed-minded on the subject of spiritual teachers? Why do you take every opportunity to sneer at people who find some value in this that you do not find?
I have more distrust of so called spiritual teachers than I do of medication. That is saying a lot.
I think spiritual teachers are con men.
I do not trust humans, especially humans who claim to be spriritual teachers.
In his day, I definitely would not have trusted Jesus. Probably why the bitch won't come into my heart now.
If I met the Buddha on the road, I would not trust him.
I do not trust anyone who claims to lead me to enlightenment or salvation or any other thing.
I don't trust a spiritual leader in the way that I do not trust a cop.
I have a problem with authority.
If I believed in God, I would have to believe in a Sufi-type of God. There is enough judgment on earth. The spirit of man -- should it exist -- I think it does because I know that I promote it -- requires ultimate mercy. If I have a belief, I believe in mercy. I give mercy as much as I am capable of giving.
I do not expect mercy for myself.
Mercy -- love of the human being -- is rare.
I don't give a flying fuck if an act of mercy can be defined as an act of ego. Define away. Of course, it can be defined as such. Been there, done that.
Mercy can also surpass ego. Mercy can be complete submission to God.
I am not intererested in a scholarly discussion of Sufism. I have heard it. I am not a Sufi. I would never follow a Sufi leader.
Leaders are false.
Faizi
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MKFaizi
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MKFaizi
Shardrol,
Kind of interesting how you take a softer tac with David Hodges than with me.
Well, it was bacause Marsha said this or that. It's because Marsha is such a bitch. David Hodges is more approachable. I stilll have bones to pick with Marsha. Dave Hodges is a nice guy. I can understand depression from a nice guy like Dave. Really nice guy. What a nice guy.
Such a nice guy. Really nice guy. Good nice guy.
Why is it that you can accept exactly what I said from a nice guy but not from me?
Dave and I both have major depression. What is the difference between Dave and me?
Why do you think he is nice?
Faizi
Kind of interesting how you take a softer tac with David Hodges than with me.
Well, it was bacause Marsha said this or that. It's because Marsha is such a bitch. David Hodges is more approachable. I stilll have bones to pick with Marsha. Dave Hodges is a nice guy. I can understand depression from a nice guy like Dave. Really nice guy. What a nice guy.
Such a nice guy. Really nice guy. Good nice guy.
Why is it that you can accept exactly what I said from a nice guy but not from me?
Dave and I both have major depression. What is the difference between Dave and me?
Why do you think he is nice?
Faizi