Matt wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>Why does the enlightened person try to achieve the valuing of reason and the survival of wisdom? Is it because he wants people to think like him so they will do things for him or be friends with him? Or maybe because he wants to look smarter than other people, like a genius? Does he want people to think he is a great man or something?<hr>
The enlightened person is motivated only by the wish to enlighten himself. This means himself first, and then everyone else in the Universe (his larger self).
This is known as "bodhicitta", or literally, "the enlightenment mind".
Quote:Quote:<hr>Is he acting completely altruistically with no concern for himself at all or what?<hr>
The closer to perfection he is, the more pure will be his motivation.
The motivation of the enlightened
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Kevin Solway
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Re: ...
It doesn't gel with me either. I think it is more something to do with a reason to keep living and to alleviate the boredom of non-attachment.
Mind you 'this larger self' concept is not something I feel. I am still just I, nonetheless, the I in me has an desire/instinct to see humankind extend its reaches after I die, regardless of being enlightened or not. Edited by: jimhaz at: 2/7/04 1:58 am
Mind you 'this larger self' concept is not something I feel. I am still just I, nonetheless, the I in me has an desire/instinct to see humankind extend its reaches after I die, regardless of being enlightened or not. Edited by: jimhaz at: 2/7/04 1:58 am
Re: The motivation of the enlightened
Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: -- The enlightened person is motivated only by the wish to enlighten himself. This means himself first, and then everyone else in the Universe (his larger self).<hr>
Enlightenment, as I understand it, is an escape from suffering and some sort of bliss or something, so I can see why someone would try to enlighten himself. But why does he think everyone else in the Universe is his larger self? Why does he think that they have any effect on his own enlightenment?
Quote:Quote:<hr>This is known as "bodhicitta", or literally, "the enlightenment mind".<hr>
That's Buddhist jargon, right? How is that pronounced? Why is the motivation to enlighten everyone in the Universe called "the enlightenment mind"?
Quote:Quote:<hr>The closer to perfection he is, the more pure will be his motivation.<hr>
What is "perfection"? Perfection of what?
Enlightenment, as I understand it, is an escape from suffering and some sort of bliss or something, so I can see why someone would try to enlighten himself. But why does he think everyone else in the Universe is his larger self? Why does he think that they have any effect on his own enlightenment?
Quote:Quote:<hr>This is known as "bodhicitta", or literally, "the enlightenment mind".<hr>
That's Buddhist jargon, right? How is that pronounced? Why is the motivation to enlighten everyone in the Universe called "the enlightenment mind"?
Quote:Quote:<hr>The closer to perfection he is, the more pure will be his motivation.<hr>
What is "perfection"? Perfection of what?
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Kevin Solway
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Re: The motivation of the enlightened
Matt:
Quote:Quote:<hr>I can see why someone would try to enlighten himself. But why does he think everyone else in the Universe is his larger self?<hr>
Your hand is part of you, because it is connected to you. Other people are also part of you, because they too are connected to you.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Why does he think that they have any effect on his own enlightenment?<hr>
Because they are part of him.
Quote:Quote:<hr>K: This is known as "bodhicitta", or literally, "the enlightenment mind".
That's Buddhist jargon, right?
<hr>
Yes. It has the double meaning of "mind of enlightenment" and "the wish to make all beings enlightened". Therefore it is good shorthand.
How is that pronounced?
Bod-i-cheetah (the "i" as in "in")
Quote:Quote:<hr>Why is the motivation to enlighten everyone in the Universe called "the enlightenment mind"?<hr>
It is possessed of the will to enlightenment.
Quote:Quote:<hr>K: The closer to perfection he is, the more pure will be his motivation.
M: What is "perfection"? Perfection of what?<hr>
The perfection of wisdom. The perfection of ridding himself of all gross and subtle delusions.
Quote:Quote:<hr>I can see why someone would try to enlighten himself. But why does he think everyone else in the Universe is his larger self?<hr>
Your hand is part of you, because it is connected to you. Other people are also part of you, because they too are connected to you.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Why does he think that they have any effect on his own enlightenment?<hr>
Because they are part of him.
Quote:Quote:<hr>K: This is known as "bodhicitta", or literally, "the enlightenment mind".
That's Buddhist jargon, right?
<hr>
Yes. It has the double meaning of "mind of enlightenment" and "the wish to make all beings enlightened". Therefore it is good shorthand.
How is that pronounced?
Bod-i-cheetah (the "i" as in "in")
Quote:Quote:<hr>Why is the motivation to enlighten everyone in the Universe called "the enlightenment mind"?<hr>
It is possessed of the will to enlightenment.
Quote:Quote:<hr>K: The closer to perfection he is, the more pure will be his motivation.
M: What is "perfection"? Perfection of what?<hr>
The perfection of wisdom. The perfection of ridding himself of all gross and subtle delusions.
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Kevin Solway
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suergaz
The planets must be so aligned to make you funnier than normal today!
Re: The motivation of the enlightened
Quote:Quote:<hr>Matt: I can see why someone would try to enlighten himself. But why does he think everyone else in the Universe is his larger self?
Kevin: Your hand is part of you, because it is connected to you. Other people are also part of you, because they too are connected to you.<hr>
Well, I'm with Jimhaz. I can feel my hand and I can make it do whatever I want it to do. I can't do that with other people. I can't feel them or make them do anything they don't want to do. For example, when my neighbor plays his music too loud, I have to go down there, ask him to turn it down and hope that he turns it down. Whereas, if I am playing music and it becomes too loud, I can just use my hand to turn it down. I don't have to ask anybody, so the connection, if any exists, is clearly not the same.
Quote:Quote:<hr> Kevin: The closer to perfection he is, the more pure will be his motivation.
Matt: What is "perfection"? Perfection of what?
Kevin: The perfection of wisdom. The perfection of ridding himself of all gross and subtle delusions.<hr>
Ok, everyone knows that wisdom is intelligence and compassion: being patient with others, understanding and having empathy for others, and helping, giving and being kind to others. Is that how you would describe it?
What do you consider to be a delusion? Hatred, anger, greed, arrogance, etc.? What do you mean by "gross" and "subtle"? Edited by: MGregory at: 2/8/04 12:35 am
Kevin: Your hand is part of you, because it is connected to you. Other people are also part of you, because they too are connected to you.<hr>
Well, I'm with Jimhaz. I can feel my hand and I can make it do whatever I want it to do. I can't do that with other people. I can't feel them or make them do anything they don't want to do. For example, when my neighbor plays his music too loud, I have to go down there, ask him to turn it down and hope that he turns it down. Whereas, if I am playing music and it becomes too loud, I can just use my hand to turn it down. I don't have to ask anybody, so the connection, if any exists, is clearly not the same.
Quote:Quote:<hr> Kevin: The closer to perfection he is, the more pure will be his motivation.
Matt: What is "perfection"? Perfection of what?
Kevin: The perfection of wisdom. The perfection of ridding himself of all gross and subtle delusions.<hr>
Ok, everyone knows that wisdom is intelligence and compassion: being patient with others, understanding and having empathy for others, and helping, giving and being kind to others. Is that how you would describe it?
What do you consider to be a delusion? Hatred, anger, greed, arrogance, etc.? What do you mean by "gross" and "subtle"? Edited by: MGregory at: 2/8/04 12:35 am
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Kevin Solway
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Re: The motivation of the enlightened
Matt wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: Your hand is part of you, because it is connected to you. Other people are also part of you, because they too are connected to you.
M: Well, I'm with Jimhaz. I can feel my hand and I can make it do whatever I want it to do. I can't do that with other people.<hr>
I'm connected to my liver (say), but I can't make my liver do whatever I want it to do. Yet it's still part of me.
Similarly, I have a heart "condition" where my heart sometimes goes into the wrong gear. A bit like if you're in an automatic car, and it just decides to change gear at an inappropriate time. There is virtually nothing I can do to prevent that from happening.
I am closely connected to my fingernails, but I can't stop them from growing.
I agree that our traditional bodies feel more obviously "us". But we have other bodies, that are less obviously "us".
Quote:Quote:<hr>Ok, everyone knows that wisdom is intelligence and compassion: being patient with others, understanding and having empathy for others, and helping, giving and being kind to others. Is that how you would describe it?<hr>
Undertanding the nature of Reality is an important part of that.
Quote:Quote:<hr>What do you consider to be a delusion? Hatred, anger, greed, arrogance, etc.? What do you mean by "gross" and "subtle"?<hr>
Things like hatred, anger, jealousy, and greed would be at the "gross" end of the scale, while things like subtle boredom, or slightest haziness of mind, would be at the "subtle" end of the scale.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: Your hand is part of you, because it is connected to you. Other people are also part of you, because they too are connected to you.
M: Well, I'm with Jimhaz. I can feel my hand and I can make it do whatever I want it to do. I can't do that with other people.<hr>
I'm connected to my liver (say), but I can't make my liver do whatever I want it to do. Yet it's still part of me.
Similarly, I have a heart "condition" where my heart sometimes goes into the wrong gear. A bit like if you're in an automatic car, and it just decides to change gear at an inappropriate time. There is virtually nothing I can do to prevent that from happening.
I am closely connected to my fingernails, but I can't stop them from growing.
I agree that our traditional bodies feel more obviously "us". But we have other bodies, that are less obviously "us".
Quote:Quote:<hr>Ok, everyone knows that wisdom is intelligence and compassion: being patient with others, understanding and having empathy for others, and helping, giving and being kind to others. Is that how you would describe it?<hr>
Undertanding the nature of Reality is an important part of that.
Quote:Quote:<hr>What do you consider to be a delusion? Hatred, anger, greed, arrogance, etc.? What do you mean by "gross" and "subtle"?<hr>
Things like hatred, anger, jealousy, and greed would be at the "gross" end of the scale, while things like subtle boredom, or slightest haziness of mind, would be at the "subtle" end of the scale.
Re: The motivation of the enlightened
Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: I agree that our traditional bodies feel more obviously "us". But we have other bodies, that are less obviously "us".<hr>
How do we make these other bodies more obvious to ourselves?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Matt: Ok, everyone knows that wisdom is intelligence and compassion: being patient with others, understanding and having empathy for others, and helping, giving and being kind to others. Is that how you would describe it?
Kevin: Undertanding the nature of Reality is an important part of that.<hr>
Which of these qualities is the most important to the enlightened or perfect person?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Matt: What do you consider to be a delusion? Hatred, anger, greed, arrogance, etc.? What do you mean by "gross" and "subtle"?
Kevin: Things like hatred, anger, jealousy, and greed would be at the "gross" end of the scale, while things like subtle boredom, or slightest haziness of mind, would be at the "subtle" end of the scale.<hr>
As I understand it, these delusions would have to be transcended or subdued so they no longer arise in order for enlightenment to occur. In other words, I don't think enlightenment comes first and destroys the delusions. If this is correct, how can a person subdue these delusions? Do we start with the subtle delusions and work towards the gross ones, or is it better to go the other way around?
Does the motivation of the enlightened person extend to getting rid of these delusions in other people? How would he do that? What kind of strategies would he use?
How do we make these other bodies more obvious to ourselves?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Matt: Ok, everyone knows that wisdom is intelligence and compassion: being patient with others, understanding and having empathy for others, and helping, giving and being kind to others. Is that how you would describe it?
Kevin: Undertanding the nature of Reality is an important part of that.<hr>
Which of these qualities is the most important to the enlightened or perfect person?
Quote:Quote:<hr>Matt: What do you consider to be a delusion? Hatred, anger, greed, arrogance, etc.? What do you mean by "gross" and "subtle"?
Kevin: Things like hatred, anger, jealousy, and greed would be at the "gross" end of the scale, while things like subtle boredom, or slightest haziness of mind, would be at the "subtle" end of the scale.<hr>
As I understand it, these delusions would have to be transcended or subdued so they no longer arise in order for enlightenment to occur. In other words, I don't think enlightenment comes first and destroys the delusions. If this is correct, how can a person subdue these delusions? Do we start with the subtle delusions and work towards the gross ones, or is it better to go the other way around?
Does the motivation of the enlightened person extend to getting rid of these delusions in other people? How would he do that? What kind of strategies would he use?
wise men eat brown rice
KSolway wrote:
Similarly, I have a heart "condition" where my heart sometimes goes into the wrong gear. A bit like if you're in an automatic car, and it just decides to change gear at an inappropriate time. There is virtually nothing I can do to prevent that from happening.
LB: NOT TRUE. You can stop wolfing down those
nitrite-laiden hotdogs, that would do it, no joke.
Leo
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Kevin Solway
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Re: The motivation of the enlightened
Matt wrote:
Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: I agree that our traditional bodies feel more obviously "us". But we have other bodies, that are less obviously "us".
M: How do we make these other bodies more obvious to ourselves?<hr>
Try to make ourselves, and them, more intelligent and communicative.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Matt: Ok, everyone knows that wisdom is intelligence and compassion: being patient with others, understanding and having empathy for others, and helping, giving and being kind to others. Is that how you would describe it?
Kevin: Undertanding the nature of Reality is an important part of that.
M: Which of these qualities is the most important to the enlightened or perfect person?<hr>
Without understanding the nature of Reality there can be no proper patience, understanding, compassion, etc.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: Things like hatred, anger, jealousy, and greed would be at the "gross" end of the scale, while things like subtle boredom, or slightest haziness of mind, would be at the "subtle" end of the scale.
M: As I understand it, these delusions would have to be transcended or subdued so they no longer arise in order for enlightenment to occur. In other words, I don't think enlightenment comes first and destroys the delusions. If this is correct, how can a person subdue these delusions? Do we start with the subtle delusions and work towards the gross ones, or is it better to go the other way around?<hr>
This is a big topic, and I refer you to "Stages of the Way" in "<a href="http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/poison.html" target="top">Poison for the Heart</a>".
One doesn't all of a sudden become a perfectly, spotless, enlightened Buddha, from being an ordinary ignorant person. It is a gradual process. At first gross delusions are dismantled, and later the subtle one's are evaporated.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Does the motivation of the enlightened person extend to getting rid of these delusions in other people?<hr>
If he wants to enlighten himself, it would have to.
Quote:Quote:<hr>How would he do that? What kind of strategies would he use?<hr>
Any strategy which stands a chance of working. The first thing he can do is to practice what he preaches.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: I agree that our traditional bodies feel more obviously "us". But we have other bodies, that are less obviously "us".
M: How do we make these other bodies more obvious to ourselves?<hr>
Try to make ourselves, and them, more intelligent and communicative.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Matt: Ok, everyone knows that wisdom is intelligence and compassion: being patient with others, understanding and having empathy for others, and helping, giving and being kind to others. Is that how you would describe it?
Kevin: Undertanding the nature of Reality is an important part of that.
M: Which of these qualities is the most important to the enlightened or perfect person?<hr>
Without understanding the nature of Reality there can be no proper patience, understanding, compassion, etc.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Kevin: Things like hatred, anger, jealousy, and greed would be at the "gross" end of the scale, while things like subtle boredom, or slightest haziness of mind, would be at the "subtle" end of the scale.
M: As I understand it, these delusions would have to be transcended or subdued so they no longer arise in order for enlightenment to occur. In other words, I don't think enlightenment comes first and destroys the delusions. If this is correct, how can a person subdue these delusions? Do we start with the subtle delusions and work towards the gross ones, or is it better to go the other way around?<hr>
This is a big topic, and I refer you to "Stages of the Way" in "<a href="http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/poison.html" target="top">Poison for the Heart</a>".
One doesn't all of a sudden become a perfectly, spotless, enlightened Buddha, from being an ordinary ignorant person. It is a gradual process. At first gross delusions are dismantled, and later the subtle one's are evaporated.
Quote:Quote:<hr>Does the motivation of the enlightened person extend to getting rid of these delusions in other people?<hr>
If he wants to enlighten himself, it would have to.
Quote:Quote:<hr>How would he do that? What kind of strategies would he use?<hr>
Any strategy which stands a chance of working. The first thing he can do is to practice what he preaches.