The compatibility of free will and determinism.

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Dave Toast
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The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by Dave Toast »

A simple proof by Kevin Solway.


Quote:Quote:<hr>it is simple enough to prove that they are perfectly compatible<hr>
Fire away Kevin.
krussell2004
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by krussell2004 »

Quote:Quote:<hr>A simple proof by Kevin Solway.



Quote:
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it is simple enough to prove that they are perfectly compatible
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Fire away Kevin.<hr>


Yes Kevin. Please do so.


Kevin Solway
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by Kevin Solway »

Re: Compatibility of free-will and determinism

Quote:Quote:<hr>Fire away Kevin.<hr>
What we call "free will" is our perception that we are, to some degree, in control of what we are doing. And it is based on our lack of ability to predict the future. That is, even though the future is necessarily fully predetermined by the present moment, we ourselves don't know what is predetermined, and that leaves space for our so-called "free will".

Our "free-will" consists of our "choosing" between one course of action and another, and we do this choosing because we don't know which course of action we will take prior to taking it. But whichever way we choose, that particular choice is necessarily always predetermined.

Thus, we have "free-will", which is really an illusion, though a real and useful enough figure of speech, and complete determinism, at the same time.
suergaz

Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by suergaz »

This is all irrelevant. Do you think women should become uglier like David Quinn does?
krussell2004
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by krussell2004 »

Quote:Quote:<hr> This is all irrelevant. Do you think women should become uglier like David Quinn does? <hr>

Suergaz, you really are a chimp. So why don't you sit at the back of the room and shut up. Do not make a sound until it is your turn to have a banana.
suergaz

Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by suergaz »

Krussel, you are a banana. I am not ever going to use emoticons again. Guess the fucking sense.
cassiopeiae
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by cassiopeiae »

Quote:Quote:<hr>KSolway: What we call "free will" is our perception that we are, to some degree, in control of what we are doing. And it is based on our lack of ability to predict the future. That is, even though the future is necessarily fully predetermined by the present moment, we ourselves don't know what is predetermined, and that leaves space for our so-called "free will".

Our "free-will" consists of our "choosing" between one course of action and another, and we do this choosing because we don't know which course of action we will take prior to taking it. But whichever way we choose, that particular choice is necessarily always predetermined.

Thus, we have "free-will", which is really an illusion, though a real and useful enough figure of speech, and complete determinism, at the same time.<hr>

We cannot comprehend the "now" at any moment of time. One can know the event in the past, but not as the present. There is no real-present sense, even though we falsely assume there to be. I can remember where I was on January 28th at 1:02 pm, but if it were that date and time this instant, it would have passed upon my realization, thus inventing the past. So, really why argue free-will in the first place, and why continue to acknowledge illusion as any truth (reality)?
Kevin Solway
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by Kevin Solway »

cassiopeiae wrote:

Quote:Quote:<hr>So, really why argue free-will in the first place, and why continue to acknowledge illusion as any truth (reality)?<hr>

Free will is one of those illusions we cannot escape, like the illusion of "self" (in fact, free will is dependent on the illusion of self), however we can stop being taken-in by the illusion, at the same time as continuing to use it for communicating with ourselves and others.



cassiopeiae
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by cassiopeiae »

Quote:Quote:<hr>KSolway: Free will is one of those illusions we cannot escape, like the illusion of "self" (in fact, free will is dependent on the illusion of self), however we can stop being taken-in by the illusion, at the same time as continuing to use it for communicating with ourselves and others.<hr>

By not being "taken-in" by the illusion of "free-will" or the "self" is escaping the illusion. Once it is realized as illusion, there is only the existence of a fallacy. It has nothing to do with communicating with ourselves...the "self" is illusion, remember? ;-)
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David Quinn
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by David Quinn »

The chimp wrote:

Quote:Quote:<hr> This is all irrelevant. Do you think women should become uglier like David Quinn does? <hr> Verily, perchance I have taken from you an hundred definitions and the
dearest playthings of your virtue; and now are ye wroth with me as children
are. They played on the seashore - then came a wave and swept all their toys
away into the deep: now they weep.

But this same wave shall bring them new playthings and cast new coloured
shells at their feet. Thus shall they be comforted; and like them ye also, my friends,
shall have your comforts - and new coloured shells!

- Thus Spake Zarathustra
cassiopeiae
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by cassiopeiae »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Verily, perchance I have taken from you an hundred definitions and the
dearest playthings of your virtue; and now are ye wroth with me as children
are. They played on the seashore - then came a wave and swept all their toys
away into the deep: now they weep.

But this same wave shall bring them new playthings and cast new coloured
shells at their feet. Thus shall they be comforted; and like them ye also, my friends,
shall have your comforts - and new coloured shells!

- Thus Spake Zarathustra<hr>

This would pertain to vanity more than anything else...
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David Quinn
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by David Quinn »

It pertains to all worldly attachments.
cassiopeiae
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by cassiopeiae »

Exactly, but in regards to what seurgaz said...attachments have nothing to do with the physical composition of anything, like genetics or the like...
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David Quinn
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by David Quinn »

Sure, but Suergaz is obviously very attached to the physical beauty of women and routinely expresses strong moral indignation at the mere thought of doing without it. This makes it, for him, a "dearest plaything of his virtue".
cassiopeiae
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by cassiopeiae »

*snicker*
suergaz

Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by suergaz »

Cassiopeiae is gorgeous when she snickers.

At least post the hollingdale translation David you cow.



Last Will


So to die
as once I saw him die -
the friend who like a god
cast glances of lightning into my dark youth:
- wanton, profound,
in the slaughter a dancer-

of fighters the cheerfullest,
of victors the sternest,
a destiny standing upon his destiny,
firm, reflecting, preflecting-:

trembling with joy of victory,
rejoicing that he died in victory:

by dying, commanding
--and he commanded destruction...

So to die
as once I saw him die:
victorious, destroying...


(Since we're quoting Nietzsche)

suergaz

Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by suergaz »

David, I have taken away the playthings of your virtue, 'Ultimate Reality' 'The hidden void' 'absolute truth' 'pure reason'----you will learn to play again, or die.
birdofhermes
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by birdofhermes »

Quote:Quote:<hr>Verily, perchance I have taken from you an hundred definitions...<hr>
Ha, Ha, I thought you were trying to copy Suergaz's style to teach him a lesson, and then I thought, gosh he's doing a good job...!
jimhaz
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Re: The compatibility of free will and determinism.

Post by jimhaz »

by dying, commanding
--and he commanded destruction...

So to die
as once I saw him die:
victorious, destroying...

prolly stating the obvious, but I assume this means

To command destruction one must first understand what it is. Only by having total control over anything can you fully command it, at the personal level. To do this you must die, as you must destroy emotion, wich is what peole think of as life. This then leads to a desire to destroy emotion in others.





suergaz

---

Post by suergaz »

I think you should stay away from swimming pools and most electrical appliances.
jimhaz
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Re: ---

Post by jimhaz »

I think you should stay away from swimming pools and most electrical appliances.

Yep. There is a lot of tobacco under the keys of my keyboard, so I should stay away from that particular appliance when I'm 'smokin' !

Yep. Swimming pools as well, far too many bikinis.
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